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Voss
10-04-2014, 07:12
Or Guard, if you prefer. Anyway, so people are (somewhat) less inclined to clutter up the rumour thread, here we are. Pictures are well afoot, more accurate accounts are crystalizing and speaking entirely for myself, I'm entirely underwhelmed and bored already.

Huzzah for a hydra kit (and I do like the hydra model, though the wyvern irks me. An artillery piece is not made by leaving the barrels off AA guns, and swapping the ammo bins for new ones). Double huzzah for appropriately pointed armoured sentinels and vendettas. A cheer for tank commanders (especially if they're real HQ choices). And, well... boo for all the other seemingly random points adjustments (or lack of same) that make no freaking sense. And boo again for the horribly (unintentionally) disproportionate models and wildly high points costs on Ogryns.

In any case, in the build up to this codex, I was very concerned I'd be inspired and dig forth my old guard and spend money on a bunch of new stuff. Happily/Sadly, my valhallans can continue to moulder in the dark with no new support, because frankly the most interesting thing about the whole deal is the name change, and GW would have served the community better by releasing updates for more stuff in the current codex, and not faffing about with a bunch of trivial changes that look like the result of a series 1d6 rolls (High roll = points increase, low roll = decrease, 3-4 is no change).


I can't even muster enough feeling to really rage about it, it is just a really bland month long string of stuff that will simply mark time until something actually interesting comes along. Maybe something orky.

The Emperor
10-04-2014, 07:27
I'm half-and-half on it.

PROS:
- Scion's, both rules and models.
- Taurox Prime (You'll never hear me complain about having access to a Fast Vehicle).
- Lasgun Array rule for Chimera's.
- The loosening of the Commissar's summary execution rule (Doesn't have to, and if he does, doesn't have to be the most important person).
- New orders.
- 12" Order range for Junior Officers.
- Cheaper Heavy Flamers.
- Battle Focus Ratlings.
- Cheaper Armored Sentinels.
- Cheaper Veteran Squads, and cheaper Doctrines for them.
- Tank Commander/Pask.
- Divination on Psykers.
- 5 Leman Russ variants gone down in points.
- Cheaper sponson weapons.
- Sergeants can take Boltguns.

CONS
- Removal of Al'Rahem.
- Removal of Chenkov.
- Removal of Marbo.
- Removal of Griffon.
- Removal of Colossus.
- Removal of Medusa.
- Removal of Penal Legion.
- Ogryns grossly overpriced.
- Bullgryns grossly overpriced.
- Heavy Weapon Teams overpriced.
- Executioner Plasma Cannon now has Gets Hot.
- Hydra lost the ability to ignore Cover Saves.
- Nothing was done to fix Leman Russ Battle Tank and Leman Russ Demolisher.

I'll buy the codex this Friday and let my feelings on all the above percolate a little while longer and decide what I want to do. Although I've already ruled out buying Ogryns, even though I love the models and initially wanted to buy up both variants.

duffybear1988
10-04-2014, 08:33
PROS:
- Scions models.
- Lasgun Array rule for Chimera's.
- The loosening of the Commissar's summary execution rule (Doesn't have to, and if he does, doesn't have to be the most important person).
- New orders (some).
- 12" Order range for Junior Officers.
- Cheaper Heavy Flamers.
- Battle Focus Ratlings.
- Cheaper Armored Sentinels.
- Cheaper Veteran Squads, and cheaper Doctrines for them.
- Tank Commander/Pask.
- Divination on Psykers.
- 5 Leman Russ variants gone down in points.
- Cheaper sponson weapons.
- Sergeants can take Boltguns.
- Priests.

CONS
- Removal of Al'Rahem.
- Removal of Chenkov.
- Removal of Marbo.
- Removal of Griffon.
- Removal of Colossus.
- Removal of Medusa.
- Removal of Penal Legion.
- Ogryns grossly overpriced.
- Bullgryns grossly overpriced.
- Heavy Weapon Teams overpriced.
- Executioner Plasma Cannon now has Gets Hot.
- Hydra lost the ability to ignore Cover Saves.
- Nothing was done to fix Leman Russ Battle Tank and Leman Russ Demolisher.
- Scions rules are still useless (arguably worse than before).
- Scout sentinels still pricey.
- Expensive powerfists and weapons on guardsmen.
- Hydra is still useless without interceptor.
- The pointless Taurox.
- New orders (some).

Borrowed most of your list Emp.

For me personally this looks like a complete sideways step. As a light infantry guard player I see very little that will actually help me - my heavy weapon teams are still expensive and lost the twin linking order, I lost a lot of the characterful stuff like Marbo, Al'Rahem and penal legion. I will no longer be able to run my griffon at local tournaments as they don't allow FW. Arguably losing special operations on storm troopers weaken them as well. Nope it's mostly a kick in the teeth for me. It looks great if you run an armoured company...

The meta is going to shift towards heavy tanks and parking lots again now though.

The Emperor
10-04-2014, 08:45
my heavy weapon teams are still expensive and lost the twin linking order

I still don't get why they felt the need to charge so much for those guys... As for twin-linking, I'm waiting to see if the rumors about Divination on the psykers are true, how expensive they are, and how many of them can be taken. It wouldn't be bad at all if one could throw in two or three cheap Level 1 Psykers casting Prescience all over the place.

Agreed, though. It definitely seems like Leman Russ tank heavy forces will be the ones to benefit the most.

A.T.
10-04-2014, 09:24
- Removal of Marbo.The Marbo model is still on sale on the site - if he doesn't turn up in the dex then I have to assume he was removed to make a quick bit of cash as a dataslate.

The Emperor
10-04-2014, 09:29
A number of people have been removed who're still on the site, like Al'Rahem. Although while I'd be really pissed that he was put out in a Dataslate rather than included in the codex, I guess that'd be better than nothing. With any luck, though, if they end up doing that with him then I hope they do the same with Colonel Schaeffer and the Last Chancers. I'd love to be able to use them.

Krucifus
10-04-2014, 10:46
Rumour has it that Marbo was removed for fear of Copywright claims on the obvious Rambo rip-off. I'd have laughed at that idea if they hadn't renamed the whole Codex for the same legal fears...

duffybear1988
10-04-2014, 10:49
Rumour has it that Marbo was removed for fear of Copywright claims on the obvious Rambo rip-off. I'd have laughed at that idea if they hadn't renamed the whole Codex for the same legal fears...

He's been there for over a decade and only now are they bringing that up... sounds like a poor excuse. I'm fully expecting dataslates to drop within a month or 2 which will pad out the release. I pre-ordered the book but cancelled it this morning. Will wait and see what the dataslates do before I fork out my cash. If it's anything like the Nid release I may not even need to buy the codex as they practically got a second much better codex on the slates.

MajorWesJanson
10-04-2014, 12:50
Rumour has it that Marbo was removed for fear of Copywright claims on the obvious Rambo rip-off. I'd have laughed at that idea if they hadn't renamed the whole Codex for the same legal fears...

He is also in several BL books that do not seem to have been pulled.

I don't expect a dataslate for Marbo, I expect a full on Catachan supplement in a few months that includes him. And chainsaws for sentinels.

duffybear1988
10-04-2014, 13:35
He is also in several BL books that do not seem to have been pulled.

I don't expect a dataslate for Marbo, I expect a full on Catachan supplement in a few months that includes him. And chainsaws for sentinels.

Don't do this to me Wes, I will not get my hopes up! I will not grin like a giddy schoolgirl at the thought of getting a playable Armageddon Ork Hunters army. Must resist making buzzing chainsaw noises... nope failed.

The Emperor
10-04-2014, 13:40
A Last Chancers Dataslate and Marbo Dataslate. That's all I want. If I'm able to play these guys and Marbo the way that God intended them to be played then I'll be happy.

191178

Ayin
10-04-2014, 14:00
For me personally this looks like a complete sideways step. As a light infantry guard player I see very little that will actually help me - my heavy weapon teams are still expensive and lost the twin linking order, I lost a lot of the characterful stuff like Marbo, Al'Rahem and penal legion. I will no longer be able to run my griffon at local tournaments as they don't allow FW. Arguably losing special operations on storm troopers weaken them as well. Nope it's mostly a kick in the teeth for me. It looks great if you run an armoured company...

The meta is going to shift towards heavy tanks and parking lots again now though.

This seems to be my initial impression as well. Great if you run a variety of tanks, good if you were planning on adding more, and everything else stays about the same.

Now, I don't have ANY problem with the Guard power level staying about the same and a few of the crazier things being changed to be reasonable, like Vendetta's going up and losing transport, that makes sense, while Infantry Platoons are right where they are, so no need to be changed. My issue is specifically things that are not good, or not used, or are CLEARLY the inferior choice just...hanging out, stayin' the same, sometimes while other options they (theoretically) compete with are introduced or made better.

Also, I understand the reason, but it annoys me to no end that whether or not an army gets Divination effects it so heavily. These units COULD be good... if another, totally seperate unit gets this specific psychic power.

Benigno (WE)
10-04-2014, 14:02
I like almost everything I've read around the new codex (but the drop of some artilleries and Marbo :(). There are a lot of options as always, and none is bad enough to not take it. I'm loving even the Deathstrike!

Lord Cook
10-04-2014, 20:49
I could rant endlessly on the sheer incompetence that went into writing at least 10 to 15% of the army list entries in this book. As ever, it's either:

a) Written by someone who, at best, doesn't understand the game, and at worst, doesn't even play the game.
b) Someone clever is writing it, but is being forced to cut corners to save money, or forced into counterproductive changes by marketing or whoever else they have in authority over there.

Ultimately, what's the point? Every single codex is like this. Bad internal balancing, sometimes seemingly randomised rules, points costs that are either ridiculously low or ridiculously high, being able to identify the blatently useless units in five minutes of looking at them, despite the designer having had to have stared at them for weeks, etc.

A great deal of the codex is absolutely fine, and if the other stuff existing as well is a deal-breaker we're in the wrong hobby.

Sgt John Keel
10-04-2014, 21:03
I'm reasonably happy, considering my low expectations.

Everything I liked and used from the last codex (Carapace Vets, Chimeras, Armoured Sentinels, Leman Russ Exterminators, Infantry Platoons) more or less stayed the same or got slightly better, so I don't really have to redo much.

On the other hand, I'm a bit sad the Codex didn't open up some interesting avenues for expansion or did much with the Elites slots, which will probably remain unpopulated in many lists.

duffybear1988
10-04-2014, 21:08
I hear you, it just winds me up that some of it is so obvious. There is some good stuff in the book. Once again it's like the potential is there but they just pulled out at the very end. People said the Dark Angels book was a bit bland and soulless and that's kind of how I feel about this Guard book. A lot of the fun stuff (fun stuff that didn't break the game) is gone. I know we may see them as ebook supps later on but it still feels like a kicking for no real reason.

Necrontyr
10-04-2014, 21:21
A Last Chancers Dataslate and Marbo Dataslate. That's all I want. If I'm able to play these guys and Marbo the way that God intended them to be played then I'll be happy.

191178

You and me both! Or at least an updated rule set for them to be used in Kill Team or something.

Kijamon
10-04-2014, 21:38
I think it's great, my army got off very lightly from any nerf action and the new stuff will add in without much pain.

It's inevitable that those with larger collections will get screwed over but for me with everything I have, I am a winner!

=Angel=
10-04-2014, 21:50
For me guard is the one codex I encourage bandwagoning- we want more guard players, we want chaos counts as, we want space marine players modelling up auxiliaries and tau with their fish pals.

There should be more humans, more not Astartes, I hope that the codex encourages this.

duffybear1988
10-04-2014, 21:58
As long as you don't like artillery, Marbo, cool characters that made platoons interesting, ogryns, storm troopers or heavy weapon squads you should be fine.

Bloodknight
10-04-2014, 22:05
I hope that the codex encourages this.

Can't see why it would, it basically looks like the last one with some different, but generally fewer units, some 1d20 rolls for points cost changes and for some reason, the stuff that has been crap stayed crap although people have been pointing at the reasons why players don't use certain units for ages. And then they come up with 60 point Bullgryns and leave Ogryns as close to useless as they've always been since 3rd edition - while releasing a new set of miniatures for those units, too. I mean, *wtf*. I already have a platoon of 2nd edition Ogryns (as in 3 6 man squads plus additional characters) because I liked them in 2nd ed.

I wouldn't buy the new ones, they seem to be terrible, if not worse than the current ones (loss of Furious Charge is bad, taking up 3 transport spaces per dude is worse, can't even fit a squad into a Chimera that does not have to take a morale check against 7 after the first casualty). I only ever play my old ones for "cinematic" games (i.e. games where both players take crappy armies and nobody actually plans to win).

MagicHat
10-04-2014, 22:07
I am cautiosly optimistic.

The Good.
Armoured Sentinel repricing.
HQ section sounds awesome, and actually full of buffing for everyone else, as the HQ should do. Ministorum priests opens up a better infantry blob and techpriests got a much needed boost through an ability, like I hoped. Quite possibly coolest HQ section for what it does, IMO.
Leman Russ seems reasonable in many ways.

The Almost There:

Scions, and everything related to Scions in general.
HWS and to a lesser degree SWS not changing. Still costs to much for what they do in relation to the rest of the army IMO.
The dogs, hounds and wolfs doesn't seem to be of much use when compared to their Leman Russ brethren.

The Missed:
So long artillery.
And Captain Al'rahem, who killed my idea for Alpha Legion operative allies to a chaos force. Guess the Chaos plans will be on a backburner for longer then I thought.
No heavy chainsword option for sentinels. Come on GW, you know it would have been awesome.

Minsc
10-04-2014, 22:18
I am cautiosly optimistic.

This, and I don't even play IG, but I might buy afew model's and use as allies to my Salamanders.

I liked most of what I've heard so far. It's a shame that Penal Legion is gone, and Ogryns might be a tad overpriced, but overall the new codex seems to address the cost-issues elsewhere (i.e. Vendetta being to cheap, many of the tanks being to expensive, armoured sentinels, etc.)

CariadocThorne
10-04-2014, 22:34
For me guard is the one codex I encourage bandwagoning- we want more guard players, we want chaos counts as, we want space marine players modelling up auxiliaries and tau with their fish pals.

There should be more humans, more not Astartes, I hope that the codex encourages this.

I've been saying this for ages. They could have done a lot here just with allies, I mean from a Tau perspective, IG allies easily reprey human forces now loyal to the Greater Good, but no, no IG battle brothers. Instead Tau got Marines as battle brothers, which doesn't make sense at all. Not that it'll stop me getting a contingent of course.

If the IG do most of the Imperiums fighting, we shouldn't be seeing several marine armies for each IG army.

Mauler
10-04-2014, 22:40
Regarding the cost for maul/shield Bullgryns (Maulgryns! Thanks...) I think they're pretty much spot-on. Using rough points estimations 6 Maulgryns with a Bone 'ead and Priest equals 7 Terminators or 6 Assault Terminators, if the Maulgryn + Priest unit charges either unit of Terminators they wipe them out over 3 rounds of combat...without losing a single model. Resilience comes at a premium and these units should last beyond 6th...

IMO Bullgryns are priced about right for what they can do, their problem is getting them into combat intact...

Bloodknight
10-04-2014, 22:50
6 Maulgryns with a Bone 'ead and Priest equals 7 Terminators or 6 Assault Terminators,

That's over 400 points of Maulgryns. 60 points a pop (45 base plus 15 for the maul/mini shield combo) plus priest plus bonehead. You can buy nearly 11 assault terminators for that price.

Also, the question remains if the priest works with Ogryns of any sort.

Commotionpotion
10-04-2014, 22:55
I think they missed a trick with Rough Riders. I know they're not to everyone's taste, but personally I like the cavalry (and my squadron of lizard-riders used to be a terror in the long-lost days of 4th ed...)

Trouble is, they're utterly outclassed by everything else in the FA slot. IMO, they should have been a) available in Platoons like new Stormtroopers and b) moved to Troops, so you could if you wished have a fast, assaulty Guard army in a very unique way (cavalry) that didn't necessarily have to resort to mechanisation to play the movement and maneuvering game.

Same with Penal Squads - rather than dropping them, they should have given the option for Penal Platoons that functioned only as combined squads, with Commissar-lite Overseers to keep them in the fight, and judicial Command Sections (hello Arbites!) with attached Heavy Bolter HWSs (hello blocking detachment!). Again, this would have made a characterful additional Troops choice and given the Guard another CQB option whilst keeping in-theme.

Still, the Tank Commanders sound good, and the option to field Stormtroopers in platoons is very welcome, if only for thematic purposes. Also, it sounds like they've finally worked out how to make Priests, Enginseers etc actually useful.

corps
10-04-2014, 23:30
At least this time rough riders have a laspistol and close combat weapon. Prior this one they had to choose between them... I haven' t finish it but it smell like like a rotten codex after a crudacification after a ward lecture. By that i mean there is the typical increase in cost and reduced effenciency on a lot of unit, something of Cruddace trademark. The famous double penalty. His second trademark is poor internal balance and there is plenty. Ward poor fluuf is here too. If i guess right that mean that C butchered is own codex. Not something new considering the SOB job. If they are indeed involved there is no point to hidding their name.

Mauler
10-04-2014, 23:44
That's over 400 points of Maulgryns. 60 points a pop (45 base plus 15 for the maul/mini shield combo) plus priest plus bonehead. You can buy nearly 11 assault terminators for that price.

Also, the question remains if the priest works with Ogryns of any sort.

My bad: it was 5 Maulgryns and probably my poor wording but the 'ead is included in with the 5 'Gryns and with the Priest it's still well shy of 400 points. Typically I was working from my Dark Angels codex so they're a bit more expensive but codex Marines get one more TH/SS Terminator. The Priest is just there to provide 2 AP2 smash attacks per round, I wasn't using hymns on the 'Gryns themselves. The Assault Terms taking the charge and lose 2 models but manage to put out 3 wounds and remove a Maulgryn. From the second round onwards the 'Gryns on average will remove one Terminator per turn while because the Terminators lost the oomph to deliver 3 wounds per round on average they can't drop a single Maulgryn. Four rounds later the Terminators are on the ground while all the Maulgryns are standing, albeit all down to a single wound.

corps
10-04-2014, 23:52
And for the tranlastion team, this guies are mad. Before that they translate everything that should not be translated and sometimes not even correctly but in this one they left entire line in english. I can't see how this is coherents.

Gungo
11-04-2014, 00:44
My bad: it was 5 Maulgryns and probably my poor wording but the 'ead is included in with the 5 'Gryns and with the Priest it's still well shy of 400 points. Typically I was working from my Dark Angels codex so they're a bit more expensive but codex Marines get one more TH/SS Terminator. The Priest is just there to provide 2 AP2 smash attacks per round, I wasn't using hymns on the 'Gryns themselves. The Assault Terms taking the charge and lose 2 models but manage to put out 3 wounds and remove a Maulgryn. From the second round onwards the 'Gryns on average will remove one Terminator per turn while because the Terminators lost the oomph to deliver 3 wounds per round on average they can't drop a single Maulgryn. Four rounds later the Terminators are on the ground while all the Maulgryns are standing, albeit all down to a single wound.
Or the ogryns break or a smart player kills the priest and leaves the ogryns as no real threat to them Or the ogryns die to shooting before they get into combat.

Voss
11-04-2014, 01:45
So, someone made a passing reference to this, and in replying to the idea, it pretty much sums up the book for me.

Compare a the point cost of a hydra with the point cost of one individual missile launcher heavy weapons team with flakk missiles.
Reflect on the fact that those two numbers are probably only 10 or so (or less) pages apart in the same book.
Consider what the author must have been drinking for that to be considered reasonable.
Discuss.

Ssilmath
11-04-2014, 01:51
Discuss.

Probably took into consideration that said model can engage foot based infantry and medium/heavy tanks more reliably, has a smaller footprint/is harder to target and can nestle safely inside fortifications. Whether that makes it up or not is up to the people paying the points cost.

MajorWesJanson
11-04-2014, 06:27
Probably took into consideration that said model can engage foot based infantry and medium/heavy tanks more reliably, has a smaller footprint/is harder to target and can nestle safely inside fortifications. Whether that makes it up or not is up to the people paying the points cost.

And that said model is a scoring unit, and can receive orders to give it tank hunter, ignores cover, or move after shooting.

Voss
11-04-2014, 06:51
And that said model is a scoring unit, and can receive orders to give it tank hunter, ignores cover, or move after shooting.

Yawn. Considering you'll have a pile of stuff that fits that criteria and also does a better job makes me feel severely underwhelmed. Not to mention the hydra handles infantry and light to medium vehicles better than single ML team does.

Bloodknight
11-04-2014, 06:59
Unless you have a babysitter for it, every order given to a HWS has a 45% chance of failing, though. LD7 is 41.7% to fail understanding the order plus the 2.8% that the officer fails to properly give the order in the first place.

Singleton Mosby
11-04-2014, 07:49
Yawn. Considering you'll have a pile of stuff that fits that criteria and also does a better job makes me feel severely underwhelmed. Not to mention the hydra handles infantry and light to medium vehicles better than single ML team does.

Isn't it only allowed to snapshot ground-targets?

Killgore
11-04-2014, 07:53
The HQ choices have made this codex into a winner for me, Priests, Enginseers, prescience Psykers, Tank Commanders.

That is a lot of useful choices to benefit an army.

Nazguire
11-04-2014, 08:00
I love the Ogryns. I know, I know, I don't know what I'm talking about, but they look cool. The image of big fat guys with riot shields made from the plating of a tank as if they were some kind of horror-movie-esque SWAT team or riot police is fantastic.
Taurox has grown on me with some more pictures and with different equipment. Just the standard Taurox (i.e. not the Taurox Prime with beefy missile launcher) looks simple and cool. Again, it's like some kind of cool SWAT team vehicle just fanging it in so the Tempestus Scions can disembark and get slaughtered in record speed.
The Tempestus Scions are a fantastic kit and easily one of the better ones in recent months...which is saying something cause they've been averaging a good rate of awesome models as of late.


HOWEVER

Seems to me that it's been quite an underwhelming release with bugger all actually released. Obviously a quick fix, and more concerned about covering their respective IP backsides than actually doing a big overhaul of the Codex.

Enjoy your Astra Militarum guys... The Space Marine armies are laughing at you.

Voss
11-04-2014, 08:05
Isn't it only allowed to snapshot ground-targets?
Yes. But 3 heavy bolter shots and 4 twin linked even if only 6s autocannon shots.... I'll take that over a single missile from a guardsman every time.




Seems to me that it's been quite an underwhelming release with bugger all actually released. Obviously a quick fix, and more concerned about covering their respective IP backsides than actually doing a big overhaul of the Codex.
I'll agree with that.


Enjoy your Astra Militarum guys... The Space Marine armies are laughing at you.
But not this. Because a) Adeptus Astartes don't get to laugh. b) Warhammer loves quantity. And for all the horrible internal balance, this codex can spam like nothing else in the world short of a factory that produces that drek by the truckload.

Vaktathi
11-04-2014, 08:11
I have mixed feelings. New orders, new artillery tank, warlord traits, all cool. I feel the Wyvern will be much bemoaned in tournaments (especially if they thought the FW Thudd Gun was bad). Price drop on some Leman Russ tanks is kinda nice.

Scions and Tauroxes? Eh, while it's nice that ST's aren't completely unusable, they're still not exactly great, like they've had the fat trimmed but still aren't in shape. Cool kits though. The Taurox is ugly, and serves no discernible purpose, and it's also expensive.

Removing most of the characters and half the artillery? *200%* Not Cool. Simultaneously both nerfing the chimera's utility and price effectiveness while also making it more complicated to function? Also not cool. Making the Hydra open topped out of nowhere for no discernible reason and removing its Jink ability? Thanks for making me waste shelf space I'll never get back for these tanks. Thanks for not fixing half the other units that needed help like Rough Riders and Heavy Weapons Squads.


There's a lot of win-some/lose some, and a lot of "why?". Reading through it, it feels like a sidegrade, like a mediocre fan redo, not like a major codex update.

T10
11-04-2014, 09:06
GW mainly put out a new Codex to get people to spend money....which ain't going to happen within my group of 52 collectors/gamers, and we are avid Imperial Guard'ers (screw the new name).
Overall we have bought 1 Codex and 7 boxes of Scions, with the Codex been copied into our main computer for easy access by all members, and the Scions mainly for bits. Some of us were going to get at least 1 new Hydra, but that ain't happening because of that unnecessary nerf.

Prior to this actual release the local LGS/GW staff were expecting to receive lots of dollars from my group, because that's what we usually do and have said we will do IF this release is good, but it isn't....not enough to actually part with our hard earned anyway.

With 52 players that are all actively pleased with the Imperial Guard codex, why do you even need to "upgrade" to the Astra Militarum codex? Surely you can stay stoked for the proper codex.

-T10

silentsmoke
11-04-2014, 10:32
I am looking forward to it, getting the Limited Edition codex, codex and a digital version and two sets of order cards. Yeah suppose I am a bit of a guardsmen, which is fine for me! There are a few things which I am gutted about. Marbo, Chenkov and some artillery. But I can see the missing characters as data slates, which I have never used a data slate before, so not sure what they are like. With some of the big guns, there's FW, so I am not totally screwed by this (glad I didn't buy companies of the dropped artillery guns in the past).

I am also looking for to expanding the armour front again, lots of building kits which I fine very relaxing!

Hopefully I will not have many changes to make to my guard armies.

Counting the hours now.....

Mauler
11-04-2014, 10:40
Or the ogryns break or a smart player kills the priest and leaves the ogryns as no real threat to them Or the ogryns die to shooting before they get into combat.

Breaking: possibly, but the odds are in their favour to pass, even if it is slight, the Priest vs Shield Terminators contributes 0.3 wounds; the Maulgryns can get by without him with the same result and in my last post I mentioned that getting them into combat was a concern. The results are still valid :) They're better used as a counter-charge unit, especially vs weaker tarpit units where they'll remove on average 16 T3 4-6+ models on the charge and then 10 models each round thereafter, initially only taking 1.5 wounds (from the remaining 18 Hormagaunts, for example) and then removing 10 models per round thereafter and that's not including attacks from the original target of the tarpit. Yeah, they're expensive but if you have an expensive shooty unit getting tarpitted or any other important unit (relic carrier or objective holder) that's bogged down then these guys are you best bet to get back on track without any casualties to the 'Gryns. That's what heavy infantry are for. lol

corps
11-04-2014, 11:38
And also removal of Moghul khamir.....

=Angel=
11-04-2014, 12:22
People buy missile launchers because they're an all rounder- a weapon that can threaten vehicles and infantry. Then they introduce a subset of vehicle that's hard to deal with and reason that missile launchers should cost more points to deal with them?Just give all launchers the flakk option for free. We've never had soldiers go to battle with Tyranids and say 'oops, I forgot my frag missiles...'

Ironbone
11-04-2014, 12:38
One thing I really don't like about bullgryns is that i have to swap shields when i buy power mauls for them. All SM armies when replacing own eqiupment with bought one, are free to chose what item they exchanging. Why Guard shouldn't be able to do the same ? Only saving grace is that slabshiedl give armour save bonus just for beeing in BtB with one.

Mauler
11-04-2014, 12:53
One thing I really don't like about bullgryns is that i have to swap shields when i buy power mauls for them. All SM armies when replacing own eqiupment with bought one, are free to chose what item they exchanging. Why Guard shouldn't be able to do the same ? Only saving grace is that slabshiedl give armour save bonus just for beeing in BtB with one.

Yeah, the interlocking shield with ground-spikes is a great touch. It does make a certain sense to have the two separate loadouts though, one is defensive and ranged, the other is offensive and melee. A power maul and 4+/5++ is better in melee vs hard hitting units than a maul and situational 3+, IMO. The T5 will hamper most S3/4 cheap tarpits and the 5++ offers some hope vs AP4 and lower. We're still not sure if that shield save bonus works in assault yet...

Ironbone
11-04-2014, 13:59
We're still not sure if that shield save bonus works in assault yet...
Well ( at least according to WD ) to get save bonus, friendly model in unit just have to be in touching (base to base) disctance to guy with slabshield.

Mauler
11-04-2014, 14:04
Well ( at least according to WD ) to get save bonus, friendly model in unit just have to be in touching (base to base) disctance to guy with slabshield.

Woah, any friendly model, not just the Bullgryns in the unit?! That's pretty nifty.

wanderingblade
12-04-2014, 03:32
I don't know whether to be pleased/relieved to receive a codex that is useful and not overpowered, and that doesn't radically nerf units - or saddened that a number of cool options went and that the potential for a really cool codex went unrealized. I'll need a closer look but I don't see this making me break out my Guard anytime soon.

The Emperor
12-04-2014, 03:38
After looking at the codex, I found out that Harker was nerfed in a big way and no longer gives Stealth or Infiltrate. Now THAT is disappointing, as I'd already been planning on making a super stealthy Catach Veteran Squad.

AngryAngel
12-04-2014, 04:10
Many of the things tanken out, were kinda eh to begin with. Marbo, while cool and I made him a personal model, never did much for me so him being gone doesn't really sadden me too much. The arty tanks I never ran in the first place so the loss doesn't effect me much. The Special characters otherwise Chenkov was pants, and if you used him for conscripts they were overpriced pants. Al rahem might be the only one to miss out of who they axed. Kamir was bleh, and Bastone was bleh.

I don't get where HWS got worse, they are just the same, and they were bad before as well for 5 years. Storm troopers had one role that of suicide drops, which if you loved that fine otherwise eh. We'll see how their change pans out. Ogryns were already bad but now you have a bit more options, am I the only one who likes the Slabshield ? Or the fact they can have fearless priests now ? That goes a long way to making them reliable. As well such easy access to divination is going to be huge to the army as a whole.

So yeah, if you wanted HWS to be cool, I didn't see that happening and they haven't been for the better part of a decate, the only real sadness is I wanted a combined arty kit not their removal.

I think the book was a positive change but I seem to be in the minority on that one. I think the little changes will ad up at the end of the day.

Zustiur
12-04-2014, 04:49
Why do Camo Gear and Camo Netting not just give stealth? WHY GW? WHY?
You moved these special rules into the main rule book for a reason. Why are you now re-writing them in codices?
*Facepalm*

AngryAngel
12-04-2014, 05:02
Why ? So that way you can't give one model the upgrade and pass it on to some 50 other guard, or 2 other tanks In a squadron, for example. Which happened for awhile before they changed it to what it is now.

Zustiur
12-04-2014, 05:20
OK, that is valid reason, but now it stacks with stealth...

AngryAngel
12-04-2014, 06:06
I don't think the stacking with stealth is as abuseable as say, commissar in camo cloak with stealth giving it to a blob squad. Though it was really amazing while it lasted for that small span of time.

Geep
12-04-2014, 08:08
I'm not impressed with the quality of this book.

It has the usual simple mistakes- like sentinels being listed as having an armour save of '2', when it's clearly supposed to be hull points (digital version, in the descriptive area not the army list).

It also has much larger holes- like a Deathstrike missile is not listed as being 1-shot. By RAW I can see nothing from stopping it firing every turn. On the other hand Manticores can only fire 4 rockets, and then can't fire again- not even their heavy bolters*.

The intentions are clear, but RAW fails.

*The Manticore has four Storm Eagle Rockets, which can fire four times from the Manticore Missile Launcher. After that the Manticore Missile Launcher cannot fire again. Rules give no difference between a Manticore and a Manticore Missile Launcher, and the background indicates they are one and the same. So the other weapon it has- the Heavy Bolter- just falls off?

I'm also not impressed that Guard camo gets to stack with stealth, when all other races must suffer. The point that it doesn't 'spread' to other squad members is a good one, but I still dislike the way it has been handled.

Psyker squads also seem to suffer pretty badly. Brotherhood of Psykers simply does nothing for most of the powers in the main book. I can see uses for them, but there's no advantage having 5 guys in the squad vs 1, and the fact you could boost them up to 10- why?

totgeboren
12-04-2014, 08:39
Hehe, right away I saw something that definitely needs to be FAQed. Straken has got a close combat weapon, S6, Smash and Monsterhunter. Yeah, he will be swinging at I, at S10 AP2 with reroll vs AV and reroll to wound vs MCs!
I think his profile should say S3, not S6... but you never know. With a bit of luck Smash works a bit differently in the next edition, so it might be in preparation for that.

*edit*
Oooooh, Ogryn can be lead by a Priest. Fearless and Hating Ogryn with War Hymns! Though, now that we have priests, I don't really see the point of Commissars? Why would you pick Ld9 and Stubborn over Fearless and Hatred? Ogryn can be lead by one of those too if you feel like it.

They might not be as bad as I thought all things considered.

librerian_samae
12-04-2014, 11:24
Woah, woah, woah! Harker doesn't give his squad infiltrate, or stealth anymore ?!?!?!?
But that was THE entire point of him, well looks like he's gone from my lists then, grrr!

CariadocThorne
12-04-2014, 11:36
I still don't get the level of complaints about the HWT. Thanks to the new orders, they got better. It may not be as much as people would have liked, but it's still an improvement.

Would it have been better if they made them so good people spammed them in ridiculous quantities, and every tourney was won by a line of HWTs behind an aegis line with artillery support? It would just mean they got nerfed next time to be worse than they used to be.

ehlijen
12-04-2014, 11:45
All Brotherhood of Psykers really does is let you field a crappy 10 wound psyker that is vulnerable to blasts.

What you can do is hide 9 models behind a bastion and have one poke out around the corner to cast a power. If he dies, the rest of the unit is out of sight and can't usually be hit. Next turn, one more poor sod walks around the corner and casts until he dies.

Annoying, stupid and not really powerful, but quite a resilient psykic attack unit.

The Emperor
12-04-2014, 12:43
Woah, woah, woah! Harker doesn't give his squad infiltrate, or stealth anymore ?!?!?!?
But that was THE entire point of him, well looks like he's gone from my lists then, grrr!

Yep. Only a few days ago I'd been planning on ordering some Camo Cloaks from Victoria Miniatures, some Veteran Shotguns from Forge World, and picking up an extra Scion box and claiming the beret heads so I could use them on a squad of Catachans and make a good looking Catachan Veteran Squad with Harker, but now that entire plan's gone to pot.

Inquisitor Shego
12-04-2014, 12:46
Yep. Only a few days ago I'd been planning on ordering some Camo Cloaks from Victoria Miniatures, some Veteran Shotguns from Forge World, and picking up an extra Scion box and claiming the beret heads so I could use them on a squad of Catachans and make a good looking Catachan Veteran Squad with Harker, but now that entire plan's gone to pot.

I got around the camo cloak problem by using the square ammo box from the terrain debris sprue and painting Contains X 10 Camo Cloaks. I put this on a base next to whatever unit had them that game.

librerian_samae
12-04-2014, 13:22
got the ebook on my kindle just now whilst waiting for my limited edition to arrive, and mostly I'm happy with we have got, a few price adjustments on existing stuff, nothing too major, some excellent additions in the tank commander, wyvern, added abilities to regimental extras and commissars. CHEAPER RUSS's!!!!

The bad, some really weird pricing for HWT, all types of ogryns being tootally overpriced.

The one thing I am totally not ok with though is the removing (and nerfing to hell on the one left) of veteran and platoon characters, they even had models for goodness sake!!!
Why does this annoy me so much?
I shall tell you, character and differentiation of regimental tactics, gone is alrahmens outflanking, chenkovs meat grinder mentality, harkers sneaky stealthy men and bastones last ditch everything to the wall orders. Such a shame and I feel the codex feels lessened because of it :(

Basically the only changes my army under went was shifting the russ squad to HQ, loosing a lord commissar (hey hey counts as tank comander for my lead Russ!), my grenadiers loosing first bastone and being rejigged as recon squad with harker, now relegated to just another vet squad, however this has ment being able to upgrade my tank tank comander to pask and being able to afford a master of ordnance for my company command squad so not all bad :D

malisteen
12-04-2014, 13:58
Does the Astra Militarum still use the same allies matrix from the Imperial Guard?

The Emperor
12-04-2014, 14:22
Does the Astra Militarum still use the same allies matrix from the Imperial Guard?

I assume so, as there's no change indicated anywhere in the book.

MajorWesJanson
12-04-2014, 14:33
Yep. Only a few days ago I'd been planning on ordering some Camo Cloaks from Victoria Miniatures, some Veteran Shotguns from Forge World, and picking up an extra Scion box and claiming the beret heads so I could use them on a squad of Catachans and make a good looking Catachan Veteran Squad with Harker, but now that entire plan's gone to pot.

Camo cloaks on veterans are now quite cheap, having dropped 20 points.

totgeboren
12-04-2014, 14:55
Nice that you can include up to three Primaris Psykers without using up a HQ, but I don't really understand the point of the "Wyrdvane Psykers"? Sure, you get 5 for a little more than one lvl 1 Primaris, but they have worse Ld and BS than the Primaris, can't hide in squads, are only lvl 1 BoP... I dunno. The internal balance of the book is pretty terrible, but it seems ok to play with at least.

I understand that GW has set a high pace as of late, but their recent books are just so half-done it makes me seriously question why I should pay for them?

G8Keeper
12-04-2014, 14:57
Is there an allies matrix at all in the book? Im having a blind moment.

G8Keeper
12-04-2014, 15:00
Oh and one thing I liked that was missing before is the Astropath is now a level 1 psyker rolling on telepathy.

The Emperor
12-04-2014, 15:01
Is there an allies matrix at all in the book? Im having a blind moment.

Nope, there isn't. Just use the allies matrix for the Imperial Guard in the rulebook.

Formerly Wu
12-04-2014, 15:07
Oooooh, Ogryn can be lead by a Priest. Fearless and Hating Ogryn with War Hymns! Though, now that we have priests, I don't really see the point of Commissars? Why would you pick Ld9 and Stubborn over Fearless and Hatred? Ogryn can be lead by one of those too if you feel like it.
If you're Fearless you can't Go to Ground.

Priests being able to join Ogryn goes a long way towards making them useful, and also finally allows one of my favorite unit combos from Dawn of War.

jason_sation
12-04-2014, 15:13
Sorry if this post doesn't belong in this thread. I haven't gotten the Codex yet, so I won't comment on that. My complaints are about the model release choices. I was really looking forward to themeing my force around blobs of troops with Commissars backed by artillery covering their advance (and occassionally blowing up my own guys). If there had been a new tank I would have probably picked it up as well. I was assuming that there would be a new Commissar that had loads of different options (so I don't have the same model repeated throughout my force), and new artillery so I could have Basilisk with a crew, and make some of the other choices. I feel like nobody wants another one-pose commissar with a sword and a gun, yet no powerfist/other power weapons/other options. And now that priests are a decent choice again I fully expected a plastic version to show up. I don't think the GW really needed to put another transport option in the codex. I do think the Ogryn are cool looking and will pick some up (along with Scions), but really would have dived into new Rough Rider models if they would only release new ones! (They can even be the Attilan design, just updated!).

I thought the last Codex was really good and just needed some tweaking. It is sounding like that is what we got from the comments I'm reading in this thread. I'm just surprised they didn't get around to updating the models that needed updated from the last book. (I'm not a fan, but I understand them removing units they have no plans to make models for.)

Thomson
12-04-2014, 15:29
Hehe, right away I saw something that definitely needs to be FAQed. Straken has got a close combat weapon, S6, Smash and Monsterhunter. Yeah, he will be swinging at I, at S10 AP2 with reroll vs AV and reroll to wound vs MCs!
But he will be dead before he can do anything because he has only I 3, and will be squashed by everything with a better I... because he has to challenge it!

tezdal
12-04-2014, 16:05
Very mediocre release, the taurox is hideous.. The new stormtroopers are meh as well, but that's modern GW for you.

Bloodknight
12-04-2014, 18:30
The arty tanks I never ran in the first place so the loss doesn't effect me much.

Big meh, because GW used to sell a metal/plastic Griffon model that I have 3 of way before FW released theirs.


I think his profile should say S3, not S6... but you never know.

Straken's bionic upgrades used to be a power fist that strikes in initiative order in Codex Catachans, they just rolled that into his stat line in the last codex :).

totgeboren
12-04-2014, 18:33
Straken's bionic upgrades used to be a power fist that strikes in initiative order in Codex Catachans, they just rolled that into his stat line in the last codex :).

Yeah, I know, but now they gave him Smash. He got x2 S in the last codex to represent his strike-at-initiative-powerfist, and now he kept that but also got Smash, so he effectively got x4 S, which makes no sense at all.

Ssilmath
12-04-2014, 18:42
Though, now that we have priests, I don't really see the point of Commissars?

Well, I'll probably catch flak for suggesting it, but...

Commissars are pretty cheap, and having one sitting with some Heavy Weapon Squads to buff the leadership sounds like it might not be a bad idea. Say, if you want your mortars to really ignore cover, or the Missile Launchers to really get Tank Hunter this turn, you just walk him on over to the appropriate squad.

Bloodknight
12-04-2014, 18:47
Hey, if you can beat a Land Shark (whatever that is.., did he beat up Skeletor's ride?), what's a Carnifex to you? ;).

I fully expect him to get squashed by practically every MC in the game that's not a Fex, though.

All Cing Eye
12-04-2014, 19:39
I'm a little annoyed at the Executioner getting the Gets Hot rule.

Isn't the purpose of mounting such a gun on a tank is that it needs a proper cooling system.

Voss
12-04-2014, 19:54
I still don't get the level of complaints about the HWT.
We know what a model with a heavy weapon is worth. It is very consistent across time and books- basic model cost + 5-15 points depending on heavy weapon (sometimes 20), with the weapon cost sometimes doubled in older books for devastator type squads.
The heavy weapon teams kick that pricing scheme in the teeth and are instead priced as if they were light vehicles or attack bikes, but with a single weapon, instead of two or even three.

The disparity is glaring and obvious, and orders don't save it. Anything heavy weapons teams can theoretically do can be done better by something elsewhere in the list (or with allies). Wyverns, hydras and sentinels should make you weep at the thought of wasting time and money on HWTs. There is a marginal use for them in infantry squads (or blobs), but between basic survival issues and the lack of effectiveness of orders and their general shooting ability, taking dedicated heavy weapon squads is a trap. Or at best a conscious decision to weaken your army.

Ssilmath
12-04-2014, 19:57
Or at best a conscious decision to weaken your army.

I'm sure that nobody can find a reason to value them or make them worth taking ever, in any situation. At least we've got that cleared up now. :rolleyes:

nosebiter
12-04-2014, 20:18
I'm a little annoyed at the Executioner getting the Gets Hot rule.

Isn't the purpose of mounting such a gun on a tank is that it needs a proper cooling system.

Modern day GW rules writing for you. Random s*** is cinematic and fun!

nosebiter
12-04-2014, 20:20
On another note, the things they removed from the guard, has me worried for the Ork dex.

Wonder what will get the axe in that one...?

CariadocThorne
12-04-2014, 20:28
We know what a model with a heavy weapon is worth. It is very consistent across time and books- basic model cost + 5-15 points depending on heavy weapon (sometimes 20), with the weapon cost sometimes doubled in older books for devastator type squads.
The heavy weapon teams kick that pricing scheme in the teeth and are instead priced as if they were light vehicles or attack bikes, but with a single weapon, instead of two or even three.

The disparity is glaring and obvious, and orders don't save it. Anything heavy weapons teams can theoretically do can be done better by something elsewhere in the list (or with allies). Wyverns, hydras and sentinels should make you weep at the thought of wasting time and money on HWTs. There is a marginal use for them in infantry squads (or blobs), but between basic survival issues and the lack of effectiveness of orders and their general shooting ability, taking dedicated heavy weapon squads is a trap. Or at best a conscious decision to weaken your army.

I understand there being some complaints. Clearly their pricing isn't what it should be. I'm not debating that.

My point is, they cost about the same, but they got better, even if there is room for debate on how much better. People have still been using them all this time, albeit not in large quantities usually. So if they were good enough to see some use, and they've improved, they should still be good enough to see some use.

I do think you're underestimating the utility of some of the orders with HWTs, but we can wait and see on that point.

Sgt John Keel
12-04-2014, 20:35
I'm sure that nobody can find a reason to value them or make them worth taking ever, in any situation. At least we've got that cleared up now. :rolleyes:

Now you've made me curious. How much would a Mortar HWS have to cost for you to say the same thing, only without the rolleyes?

The Emperor
12-04-2014, 20:35
My point is, they cost about the same, but they got better, even if there is room for debate on how much better.

Sorry, but that's not a given, as it's most definitely debatable if they got better or not. For instance, I keep hearing people touting the new "Bring it down!" order as some kind of improvement over the old one. We're talking about a unit with, at best, three guns shooting on BS 3. That sucks. I'd much rather have the twin-linked shots. After all, what good would a re-rollable armor penetration or to wound on Monstrous Creatures do for me if I never scored a hit in the first place?


Now you've made me curious. How much would a Mortar HWS have to cost for you to say the same thing, only without the rolleyes?

Eh, don't mind him. He's the same guy who thinks that enemy players would rather shoot their scatter lasers and assaults cannons at Leman Russ tanks with their Front Armor 14 instead of Heavy Weapon Squads.

Ssilmath
12-04-2014, 20:49
Eh, don't mind him. He's the same guy who thinks that enemy players would rather shoot their scatter lasers and assaults cannons at Leman Russ tanks with their Front Armor 14 instead of Heavy Weapon Squads.

Yup, I sure said Leman Russ tanks, didn't I?

Of course, as we all know every army is full of Str 6 weapons, so HWT's just go poof. And every army is full of Str 7, so AV12 is worthless. And every army has plenty of Str 8, so anything Toughness 4 and with multiple wounds die without doing anything. And every army has enough melta to make Land Raiders overpriced. And these same armies also have so many flamers that nobody ever survives overwatch to get into melee.

Did I miss anything else in the 'situation changes until my point is supported' list?

John Keel, I don't really have an answer for that. There's a lot of factors involved for whether something is going to be valued by somebody or whether it's going to be worth taking in a particular meta. The Wyvern is very good for it's points, but can't score (Which is a big point of value for me, especially considering mortar teams don't need LOS and thus are less susceptible to the Str 6 that supposedly clogs up every army list. Personally, I like the Heavy Weapons Squads idea and am thinking about ways to make them at peak effectiveness. A Lord Commissar moving around and giving a leadership buff while a Primaris Psyker hands out Divination and a CCS gives them their orders seems like a good place to start, though it's a bit expensive and likely not the bleeding edge of efficiency that separates "worth taking" and "garbage".

Voss
12-04-2014, 20:56
~200 extra points just to make 3 mortars shoot semi-effectively can't even see efficiency, even with an a dictionary open to the correct page and a full suite of magnifying glasses and a text-to-voice software package.

duffybear1988
12-04-2014, 20:59
Sorry, but that's not a given, as it's most definitely debatable if they got better or not. For instance, I keep hearing people touting the new "Bring it down!" order as some kind of improvement over the old one. We're talking about a unit with, at best, three guns shooting on BS 3. That sucks. I'd much rather have the twin-linked shots. After all, what good would a re-rollable armor penetration or to wound on Monstrous Creatures do for me if I never scored a hit in the first place?



Eh, don't mind him. He's the same guy who thinks that enemy players would rather shoot their scatter lasers and assaults cannons at Leman Russ tanks with their Front Armor 14 instead of Heavy Weapon Squads.

This. Also don't forget they are only Ld7 so those orders are far from guaranteed anyway.

I run 2 missile launcher heavy weapon squads in every game I play with IG, I have since 4th edition and will continue to do so now most likely. However they have not improved at all. Arguable the update has made them worse as they no longer twin link and frankly twin linked BS3 is far more useful against rhinos and chimeras than ignoring cover or tank hunters. They are both useless if you can't hit the target to begin with.

Ssilmath
12-04-2014, 21:02
~200 extra points just to make 3 mortars shoot semi-effectively can't even see efficiency, even with an a dictionary open to the correct page and a full suite of magnifying glasses and a text-to-voice software package.

Why three mortars? Fill out that section of heavy weapons teams, and use the leadership bubble of the Lord Commissar to make those orders much more reliable and the Psyker twin linking whichever squad you want to be most effective this turn.

MarkNorfolk
12-04-2014, 21:19
Just throwing my hand in as a user of HWTs - 2 squads of lascannon teams. "Bring it down" was tailor made for them and they passed their tests often enough. The can also make better use of cover, score, go in vehicles buildings and are normally not high up on my opponent's target priority list. HWTs do just fine in my army.

As for the codex itself: I like the new priests, enginseers, ogryns and commisars, the move and shoot ratlings and cheaper tanks. I'm going to miss Sgt Bastonne and the Colossus.

Cheers
Mark

Voss
12-04-2014, 21:27
Why three mortars? Fill out that section of heavy weapons teams, and use the leadership bubble of the Lord Commissar to make those orders much more reliable and the Psyker twin linking whichever squad you want to be most effective this turn.

Because.... you mentioned mortars?
The exact equipment hardly matters, really, as you're throwing more and more points and dice rolls in simply to make HWTs moderately effective.

Sgt John Keel
12-04-2014, 21:34
John Keel, I don't really have an answer for that. There's a lot of factors involved for whether something is going to be valued by somebody or whether it's going to be worth taking in a particular meta. The Wyvern is very good for it's points, but can't score (Which is a big point of value for me, especially considering mortar teams don't need LOS and thus are less susceptible to the Str 6 that supposedly clogs up every army list. Personally, I like the Heavy Weapons Squads idea and am thinking about ways to make them at peak effectiveness. A Lord Commissar moving around and giving a leadership buff while a Primaris Psyker hands out Divination and a CCS gives them their orders seems like a good place to start, though it's a bit expensive and likely not the bleeding edge of efficiency that separates "worth taking" and "garbage".

Good answer. I have a lot of sympathy for the "I really like this unit, and I don't particularly like this other one, so I'm willing to forgo a slight edge" reasoning. For example, I refused to use Vendettas in favour of Armoured Sentinels in the last Codex because I like Sentinels and I don't really like the Vendetta concept. And I ran all my Veterans with Carapace, even when were in Chimeras, because I like the Kasrkin miniatures a lot.

(Now I'm going to ramble a bit.)

But, on the other hand, I don't think it holds a lot of weight when evaluating whether the Codex designers did a great job of balancing units (which I think should be done without concern for the background/models).

It's a little bit like the vinyl vs CD argument and people arguing past each other. CD people argue that the technical design of the CD is superior to vinyl since it can provide a more accurate reproduction of the original sound, and vinyl people argue that vinyl sure sounds better to them regardless (since there are a ton of other factors involved that don't necessarily are directly influenced by the capability of the format). Doesn't mean anyone is wrong (except when vinyl people claim that vinyl is technically superior), just that there's no common ground for the discussion.

Anyway, I think 105 points is the bounding maximum cost for a Mortar HWS (this does not mean 105 points is the optimal cost, obviously), since at that point you can take a Wyvern and an Infantry Squad and can reasonably say that they are equal or better than the HWS in all significant areas. (Some obvious minor points are FoC utilisation and the space they need on the tabletop.)

Even at this point, though, the Wyvern is lots more deadly than the Mortar HWS, and even Divination and Orders can't help with that (since the Wyvern is already twin-linked and ignores cover and also has another shot and Shred, unless I misremember terribly), and at that point the Mortar HWS, Primaris Psyker and Command Squad are at least 50 % more expensive than the Wyvern and Infantry Squad, still less reliable and still worse even when when all parts work optimally. It gains some slight flexibility and a little better close combat performance, but I am not convinced that offsets the extra points.

The case is a not as simple to make for the other configurations, however.

And for the record, I have two Mortar Squads which I intend to use in some cases. (But probably not against Eldar.) Mostly because I like the models. And I'd really like to try out an Autocannon Squad-heavy army. Unfortunately, because of the perceived effectiveness versus monetary investment, they are rather low on the list of planned additions to the army.

gitburna
12-04-2014, 22:35
Regarding heavy weapons squads and the price compared to vehicles.
I wonder if perhaps GW does a lot of its playtesting using fortifications and playing stronghold assault type games. Guard heavy weapons teams can sit nicely in those trenchlines and in the bunkers and on the rooves of all those fortified buildings that GW produces a big line of. Theyre certainly a better unit to sit on the roof of an AV14 strongpoint than some lasgun guys, and a vehicle cant sit in one at all. There's always the chance that GW know something about upcoming rules changes that we dont.

CariadocThorne
12-04-2014, 22:54
Sorry, but that's not a given, as it's most definitely debatable if they got better or not. For instance, I keep hearing people touting the new "Bring it down!" order as some kind of improvement over the old one. We're talking about a unit with, at best, three guns shooting on BS 3. That sucks. I'd much rather have the twin-linked shots. After all, what good would a re-rollable armor penetration or to wound on Monstrous Creatures do for me if I never scored a hit in the first place?

Well there is also ignoring cover, which, as (predominantly) a Tau player, worries me. I am used to being able to rely on at least 2 of my 3 devilfish, surviving a turn of shooting thanks to the combination of front armour 13 and a 3+ jink (going flat out) remove that cover save you increase your effectiveness against them by 200%. Twin-linking would have improved your effectiveness by 50%. Granted, not all the HAT's targets are going to have 3+ cover saves, but a 5+ cover save/jink is common enough, and removing that equals the 50% boost of twin-linking.Obviously tank-hunter will depend heavily on the weapon used and targets AV, but in a lot of situations that's going to provide a larger improvement than twin-linking too.

I may be wrong as I don't have the codex yet (saving my money for my first love, Wood Elves, first) but I was under the impression one of the orders gave twin-linked, but wasn't restricted to tanks/mcs?

If so, you have a less restricted version of the same order, and two others which can, situationally, be even more useful.

In my eyes, that qualifies as getting better.

Ssilmath
12-04-2014, 22:55
Because.... you mentioned mortars?

I did? Where? When I spoke about giving support, I mentioned Heavy Weapon Teams, not mortars alone. When I spoke of mortars, it was only to compare to a Wyvern.

@John Keel

Thanks for the well thought out reply. You're right, mortars are the hardest sell simply because the Wyvern is better at killing for nearly the same price. At that point, the biggest deciding factor is whether you want the indirect fire to be scoring or more effective. That's up to the player though. Me personally, I far prefer Basilisks for my indirect fire anyways and have Autocannon and Heavy Bolter squads for my HWT's. They don't get used very often, but that's cause I prefer to play mech vets to gunline. It's a more dynamic game and more interesting for me. But yeah, I can see a decent use for the HWT's, particularly in fortified positions, ruins or similar defensive positions (Which is where they belong anyways, imho).

Formerly Wu
12-04-2014, 22:59
The premise of this whole mortar fracas continues to puzzle me. Who ever took mortar HWS for their kill potential, anyway? They're a cheap scoring unit that can contribute firepower from out of LOS. That's what they're for.

Let the Wyvern do the heavy lifting, and let the mortar HWS chip away from safety while winning you the game.

The Emperor
12-04-2014, 23:00
Well there is also ignoring cover, which, as (predominantly) a Tau player, worries me.

Yes, but again, that's entirely dependent on how many times you hit. If you don't hit then it doesn't matter if you ignore cover or not.


but I was under the impression one of the orders gave twin-linked, but wasn't restricted to tanks/mcs?

Nope, no twin-linking order.


If so, you have a less restricted version of the same order, and two others which can, situationally, be even more useful.

In my eyes, that qualifies as getting better.

It's not so, so I chalk it up to getting worse. I'd rather take more hits over Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter or ignore cover, especially since we're already talking about an overly expensive unit with too few shots needing 4's to hit.

cool-kid-on-the-block
12-04-2014, 23:03
Wait, so all but the basilisk for artillery are gone. GREAT... l love half of my army being removed from the book.

I'm not spending 30 on the new codex then another 55 on the imperial Armour book just to use my Medusas and Bombards(before anyone says just use the old book, I attend tournaments quite a lot)
I was really looking forward to this release and they have just crushed enthusiasm with removing more of the codex than they are putting in.

Really "Forging the narative" with no named characters there GW, way to hit home the hurt.

but I think you will be hurt more when I take my money elsewhere.

totgeboren
13-04-2014, 06:19
Regarding heavy weapons squads and the price compared to vehicles.
I wonder if perhaps GW does a lot of its playtesting using fortifications and playing stronghold assault type games. Guard heavy weapons teams can sit nicely in those trenchlines and in the bunkers and on the rooves of all those fortified buildings that GW produces a big line of. Theyre certainly a better unit to sit on the roof of an AV14 strongpoint than some lasgun guys, and a vehicle cant sit in one at all. There's always the chance that GW know something about upcoming rules changes that we dont.

It must be said that HWTs are probably the most vulnerable sort of infantry you can put inside a building in 6ed. All you need is a glance on the building to inflict a S6 hit on the unit inside, meaning HWTs take 2x the damage inside building than other infantry. And if they are inside buildings, they are not scoring, and cost much more than the Wyvern, while being worse in every way.

At least I'm happy they fixed Conscripts, Priests, Primaris and the Eradicator, the main things I wanted fixed (because that's models I own that had horrible rules/costs).

DoctorTom
13-04-2014, 07:40
I did like that they did mention Squats in the fluff section, even though it's mainly to say that the fate of the race is up in the air.

gitburna
13-04-2014, 11:05
It must be said that HWTs are probably the most vulnerable sort of infantry you can put inside a building in 6ed. All you need is a glance on the building to inflict a S6 hit on the unit inside, meaning HWTs take 2x the damage inside building than other infantry. And if they are inside buildings, they are not scoring, and cost much more than the Wyvern, while being worse in every way.

So a model that can be killed on a 2+ by s6 guns outside of a building is worse off than the same model that is immune (depending on the building type) to s6/7 (if we are talking av14) and can only be hurt by a missile launcher on 6 ? Not sure why does the wyvern even come into this if i don't want to shoot a pair of mortar blasts? And if the 6 man heavy weapon squad cant score by being inside the building, so what? Isn't that what the multiple squads of lasgun men are for in this situation?


I am just pointing out here that having more guys and heavy weapons in Av12/13/14/15 buildings or fortifications might be worth more to some imperial guard players, particularly when the leaf blower list was so successful at what it did.


Sent from my Nokia 920 using Tapatalk

corps
13-04-2014, 11:14
Creed and Kell question. Creed comander +++ with cd 10 bt if he is in the same unit that Kell cd 8 you must use the cd 8 of kell or you can use it? I find absurd to use kell ld of 8 instead of the ld 10 of creed.

totgeboren
13-04-2014, 11:23
So a model that can be killed on a 2+ by s6 guns outside of a building is worse off than the same model that is immune (depending on the building type) to s6/7 (if we are talking av14) and can only be hurt by a missile launcher on 6 ? Not sure why does the wyvern even come into this if i don't want to shoot a pair of mortar blasts? And if the 6 man heavy weapon squad cant score by being inside the building, so what? Isn't that what the multiple squads of lasgun men are for in this situation?


I am just pointing out here that having more guys and heavy weapons in Av12/13/14/15 buildings or fortifications might be worth more to some imperial guard players, particularly when the leaf blower list was so successful at what it did.


I'm not saying they are worse off inside a bunker than outside. I'm just saying that they are much more vulnerable than other infantry when they are inside a bunker, because they will get S6 hits meaning they take twice the amount of wounds as compared to a squad of normal guardsmen.

ehlijen
13-04-2014, 11:34
Creed and Kell question. Creed comander +++ with cd 10 bt if he is in the same unit that Kell cd 8 you must use the cd 8 of kell or you can use it? I find absurd to use kell ld of 8 instead of the ld 10 of creed.

What that rule does is that if creed and kell are in the same unit and creed gives an order to another unit that is ld6 or 7, that unit, instead of using its own ld, can use kell's.

corps
13-04-2014, 11:52
Nan i want to know if Creed gives an order to his own unit with kell present, does that mean thatthe unit can't use Creed ld and must use kell ld?

Lanacane
13-04-2014, 12:53
Nan i want to know if Creed gives an order to his own unit with kell present, does that mean thatthe unit can't use Creed ld and must use kell ld?

he said to other units.

You would always use the highest Ld value unless otherwise stated.

So for a unit of guard i believe Ld 7 is highest (??), they can use Kell's Ld 8.

ss_cherubael
13-04-2014, 13:08
Just finished my first read through of the new codex.
Initial impressions are:
I like it, I think that it is a very good representation of the IG.

My favorite bits so far are the tank commander, Wyvern and scion platoons, also a big fan of the hydras.

I don't mind losing the other artillery to FW, it's not gone just in another book so I don't see it as something worth crying over.

The new priests are awesome and I am liking the way commissars work with their execution rule.

I wish they had have sorted something like doctrines etc but I am looking forward to a tonne of supplement codices and data slates to fill that gap.

I also like that valks and vendettas are still taken as squadrons.

Bits I don't like include the lack of good mini pictures, the art is great but hardly and pictures of minis (that we haven't seen before) rough riders not getting a massive pt drop, losing some of the smaller special characters (once again I reckon in supplements or data slates)

Thomson
13-04-2014, 13:24
Sorry, but that's not a given, as it's most definitely debatable if they got better or not. For instance, I keep hearing people touting the new "Bring it down!" order as some kind of improvement over the old one. We're talking about a unit with, at best, three guns shooting on BS 3. That sucks. I'd much rather have the twin-linked shots. After all, what good would a re-rollable armor penetration or to wound on Monstrous Creatures do for me if I never scored a hit in the first place?


Well... Primaris Psykers now get Prophecy which allows you to reroll hits if I read that correctly. So you can get both... Primaris Psyker twin links them, then CCS gives them Monster Hunter.

corps
13-04-2014, 13:24
The book don't say other units. it says the unit that receive the order but you gave me the answer you can always use the higher ld unless stated otherwise. but you can't use the ld of a comissar if he is in a unit that receive the order if i remenber well.

Latro_
13-04-2014, 13:43
What you all think of the punisher now?

40pts cheaper! so you basically get a free tank commander and its still 10pts cheaper!

Stick 3 heavy bolters on it and a nearby prescience psyker and you have 29 s5 shots hitting on 3's re-rolling misses.... thats gonna hurt just about any infantry anywhere :D

The Emperor
13-04-2014, 14:28
What you all think of the punisher now?

40pts cheaper! so you basically get a free tank commander and its still 10pts cheaper!

Stick 3 heavy bolters on it and a nearby prescience psyker and you have 29 s5 shots hitting on 3's re-rolling misses.... thats gonna hurt just about any infantry anywhere :D

Nevermind that. Stick Pask on it and those 20 Punisher shots will be Rending! And don't forget to upgrade to a Heavy Stubber to add three more shots for a total of 32 shots, all of which will reroll 1's to wound thanks to his Preferred Enemy. :p

Latro_
13-04-2014, 14:30
I did think about that but old pask is like 70pts!? seems a bit much/overkill for the rending and pe hmmm

The Emperor
13-04-2014, 14:34
I did think about that but old pask is like 70pts!? seems a bit much for the rending hmmm

70 points total. He's a 40 point upgrade for the Tank Commander. For those extra 40 points you get the Old Grudges Warlord Trait (Preferred Enemy against any unit from a codex of your choice) guaranteed, rerolls on Armor Penetration, and Rending on all the Punisher shots (as well as additional options for the main guns of all the other Leman Russ tanks). The main is sick!

Ironbone
13-04-2014, 16:55
I too finaly lay my hands on AM dex, and althrough I did not dig into fluff that much, I sit with open codex for quite a few hours to do in depth reading.

And this book is...strange.

I got many moments when I was :D, lot of moments weh I was :confused:, and sadly kinda lot of moments when I was just :wtf::shifty::rolleyes:.

Truly, some changes in book are realy great. Some other put autor(s) conection to game reality to question...

Well, stuff I (more or less ) like :

Orders - orders were hands down best change in 5th ed codex, and I was realy excited to see this aspect of guard rules developed. And I'm not dissapointed :D ! Slight tweaks to core orders rules ( no LoS needed, can, well at least untill FAQ, use alies IC LD, junior officer range boost), as well as expanding existing arsenal of orders is realy good progresion. Maybe order that igonre cover is bit over the top, but hey, if every 6th army get some stupid way to deny the enemy of so needed cover saves, why guard should be diffrent ;) ? Oh, and FrF!SrF! FINALY works on hot-shots. Change that should be done years ago, but well, batter late than never. And lose of twin-linking order isn't that big deal since guard have finaly acces to divination.

Veterans price drop - well that was unexpected, but pleasant suprise. Especialy when majority of guard players, inclouding me, predicted wets will get actually neffed, and suprise, they get buffed instead :p. Cheaper unit and cheaper doctrines will ceartainly make wets quite popular again.

Lemans price drop - again, that was largly unexpected. Ofc, some variants were more or less overpriced ( especialy punisher ), but, at least for my taste, most types price was ok. Though i still would like to see Av11 on back of all our tanks ( or at damm last change rules for fighting with non-walkers vechicles ), HS shift back to heavy armour is someting I realy like. Oh, and sponsons and some vhecicle upgrades are cheaper too !

Primaris - well, even in my own secretly writen fan-dex I don't planed to give primaris acces to divination, lest alone 2nd lvl and beeing 0-3 without taking any slots. But well, GW think otherwise, and I'm great for them to do so. From already useful unit, Primaris psyker is now borderline must have. Just best change in this book /):3(\

Tank Comander - back in old days of 4th ed I used to play Armoured company ( well, mostly made of flat paper, but who is "since pecantum" in that matter ?), and even thoug we have now armoured battalegroup form IA to play, useing all tank army isn't the same as it use to be back the. Nonetheless, I welome tank commander option with open arms, because it opens some new intresting ways to play IG army. And big tanks squadron as HQ ? You don't see that every day :3 .

Minstrum priests - almost streamlined with SoB ones, as to be expected, but still, after yaers of colecting dust, guard priests finaly will show on battlefields. Zealot on 50 man conscripts squad - FTW ! Well, they are so good that they make comissar a bit obsolete, but one can not have everyting.

Armoured sentiniels - I always raged seeing how lightyears better are eldar fancy warwalkers when compered to our chickens. Not anymore ! While we don't get 2nd weapon chice, significant price drop, both on vechicle and most it's weapons, will equalize chances a bit. Not most super-duper unit ever, but definietly usable.

Comissar Yarrick - years ago I named my YT account after this guy :p, but never actually used him. In 3.5 dex his rules were medicore, in 5th his rules were nice, but price was... just..a..pain ( seriously 185 pts for that dude ? ). And now, he's not only a lot cheaper, but get actually a lot better. Inv save, orders, what not to like.

Engineseer - while he did not bet bolster defences, giving POTMS to one vechicle is still very fiting and usable rule. Just his servitors are still stupidly overpriced for no sensible reason :confused:.

Tempestus sicons - well, their own book isn't nothing more than just "yet another GW attemt to leech your money", but I still can not end laughing about beeing able to field plattons of them as elite choise. Horde elits, ha, no any other army can do that. And their rules aren't that bad either. Hot-shot lsgun is still a terribly crappy gun, but at least with FrF!SrF! and re-rolls, it can do some damage.

Wywern - well, fireing this thing, especialy in squadrons is bit of a hedage with so many scatering and re-scatering blasts, but holy crap, 4 twin-linked S4 shred, no cover blasts are fun. Orks, cultists, nids and other guard gona hate this toy, and for good reasons.

Warlord traits - well, again there was to be expected, as every new army have own now. They IMHO fit IG well, and are actually kinda funny. On 1, army comander can be a little Creeed!!! on it's own.

No baneblade in codex - Uffff.....just uffff...And I say so even when I astually own one such machine.

Things I'm not crazy about

Valkiria and vendetta neff - well, it's always sad to see great units neffed, but let's be honest, they deserve it. And rocket pod version of valkiria is now just 5 pts more expensive, so no big deal at all.

Chimera neff - again, it was kinda deserved, but still it hurts.

Comissar - well he got cheaper, can be asigned to basicly any infantry unit, and execution is now way better. But as I said above, piest do similar jobs, and do most of them better. Comie is still not bad thoug.

Bullgryns - well, while I kinda like the concept ( and I remember it first poped out in warseer IG wishist thread some time ago before first rumors about them evero start surfaceing. Coincidence ? If not that would impy that GW read internet forum, wich would be nice if not almost all their work deny that idea ), and even the models ( WGB bull ogres are still better material for conversion ), I just do not like beeing forced to swap shield when buying a power maul.

Rough riders - totaly unchanged, so they keep the role of dust colectors.

And things I rage about

Ogryns
Get
Neffed
Just
What
The
%#@$ ?

Seriously ?

Unit that was one of biggest game underdogs, since well, 3 ed dex, and was in desperate need of boost to stard beeing actually fieldable, get even worse ? They lost furious charge for hammer of wrath ( bad exchange ), their LD is still so crapy that adding any character to the is must have, and they apparenty grow in size so much that they are very bulky right now, what makes any transport option for them almost useless ? And no price change ?

When I first read that, my eyes ( seriously !) just got blackout and stoped working for few seconds. Yes, it is *that* stupid.

Scout sentiniels - if armoured ones get siginificant price drop you can expect the same on other sentiniel, right ? WRONG ! Paying just 5 pts more for non-opentoped Av12, even without scout, makes them completly and absoulety outclassed by their bigger brothers.

Sergeant harker - this guy was already just a bit overpriced for what he did, and now he's benn neffed even further ? No infiltration, no FnP, no stealth ? 55 pts for just single rending relentless h. bolter ?

Heavy weapons squads - FW already shown the way how to fix them. Either change them to mini-artilery, or at least allow to combine with other squads. Other wise, yor yet another few years, we are stuck with expensive, very fragile and unreliable unit. No wonder that anyone who can uses sabre platforms instead.

Wyrdvane psykers - well unit itself isn't that bad, just I can see any good reasons to change sanctioned psykers battale squad into them.

Master of ordinance - well, he's got cheaper, i give credit for that. But I would glady pay more if that dumbass stop beeing most inaccurate shooter in the game.

Astropath - guy is actually preety decent, but Ld7 for psyker ? Astropaths are supose to have more roles that just beeing DtW boosters.

Hydra - previously one of the batter HS choices is now medicore aa tank with quite narrow field of use. Where is interceptor dammit, and why model suddenly is opentoped, when it wasn't for, like 24 years ?

And of all worst thing that could happen, the worst possible thing

Removal of so many units.

WITHOUT
ANY
REASON !!!

Realy ? Was griffon, collosus, bastone, chenkov, al'rachem, marbo, bodyguards or penal legion so broken that it have to be removed into oblivion ? I just don't get it. Even if this units shall be shift to FW, why bother removing them in first place ? SM, magical way, do not have any of their units removed, just nids and guard....

Why GW, why ?

Iron_Lord
13-04-2014, 17:07
Virtually every unit that was removed, either only had a Forgeworld model, or was very old, or didn't have an official model at all.

Tyranids went through the same thing.

Ironbone
13-04-2014, 17:18
Yes, but why erese them from codex. Guard wetereans never had any GW made models, yet they remained, and in fact, get boosted.

Spiney Norman
13-04-2014, 17:27
Is it me or is 'bland' starting to become the main complaint about new army books/codexes

Lizardmen: bland
Tyranids: bland and uncompetitive
Dwarfs: bland
Astra: bland

Is it time to start worrying about the sheer lack of effort GW is lavishing on its recent creations? Have they just run out of ideas?

Iron_Lord
13-04-2014, 17:29
Guard wetereans never had any GW made models, yet they remained, and in fact, get boosted.

Most of the art for them depicts them as basically normal Guardsmen though.

CariadocThorne
13-04-2014, 17:30
Yes, but why erese them from codex. Guard wetereans never had any GW made models, yet they remained, and in fact, get boosted.

Because veterans are made from the same kits as regular guardsmen. A dedicated kit for the weapon options etc would be nice, but they are basically just guardsmen so they don't actually need their own models.

GW are removing units that don't have GW models, and they are only making a few new kits for each release.

Some of the removed characters will almost certainly feature in up coming supplements, or dataslates. Some regiments (particularly Catachans) could well get full codexes.

Hawkkf
13-04-2014, 17:36
Veterans dropped by 10 points but also lost thier krak grenades, which cost the same to replace. Other than grenadiers dropping in cost and forward sentries dropping in cost but almost defensive grenades. The irony is that they pay 50% less on camo cloaks (factoring in the cost for snare mines) and 50% more on carapace than compared to the company command squad. Way to keep things standard across the board...

The Emperor
13-04-2014, 17:38
Yes, but why erese them from codex. Guard wetereans never had any GW made models, yet they remained, and in fact, get boosted.

Yep. I certainly wouldn't mind some carapace armor wearing Veterans. Or Veterans with camo cloaks. The only carapace armor we have are the Scions, and camo cloaks on only a handful of pewter sniper models. Neither on regular guys with lasguns or shotguns (Of which there are none either. Is Straken the only IG model with a shotgun?).

Ironbone
13-04-2014, 17:39
Catachans have own characters ( Straken/Harker ) in "core" IG codex. I would rahter see the comming of some less known ( if not no-name ) regiment. Or GW will follow the way of Black Legion, and will do suplement for "guard ultramarines" - cadians.

Minsc
13-04-2014, 17:42
Comissar - well he got cheaper, can be asigned to basicly any infantry unit, and execution is now way better. But as I said above, piest do similar jobs, and do most of them better. Comie is still not bad though.
Priests prevent you from going to ground and from utilizing "Our weapons are useless". There is still a place for Commissars, and I intend to use at least one.


Bullgryns - well, while I kinda like the concept ( and I remember it first poped out in warseer IG wishist thread some time ago before first rumors about them evero start surfaceing. Coincidence ? If not that would impy that GW read internet forum, wich would be nice if not almost all their work deny that idea ), and even the models ( WGB bull ogres are still better material for conversion ), I just do not like beeing forced to swap shield when buying a power maul.
I agree that Bullgryns are abit "meh", at least the Bruteshield/Powermaul-version. The Slabshield/Grenadegauntlet-version is actually pretty decent, and is a nice way to give your artillery-tanks a 2+ cover.

Rough riders - totaly unchanged, so they keep the role of dust colectors.
Actually, they went up 1 point in cost, which is abit :wtf:

Scout sentiniels - if armoured ones get siginificant price drop you can expect the same on other sentiniel, right ? WRONG ! Paying just 5 pts more for non-opentoped Av12, even without scout, makes them completly and absoulety outclassed by their bigger brothers.
Scout allows you to outflank. Don't underestimate 3 outflanking sentinels with autocannons.

Master of ordinance - well, he's got cheaper, i give credit for that. But I would glady pay more if that dumbass stop beeing most inaccurate shooter in the game.
Not everything has to be competitive. I see the MoO as something that's there for ***** and giggles. And he's also a very cheap earthshaker cannon when you think about it. He's hardly a bad choice.

Astropath - guy is actually preety decent, but Ld7 for psyker ? Astropaths are supose to have more roles that just beeing DtW boosters.
Yes Ld7 is a bit "meh". Still, he's very cheap for what he does.

Hydra - previously one of the batter HS choices is now medicore aa tank with quite narrow field of use. Where is interceptor dammit, and why model suddenly is opentoped, when it wasn't for, like 24 years ?
The Hydra is fine. Compare it to the SM Stalker and you'll see they are quite similar. Open-topped is a bit "eh?", but it's not a big deal. You can always look elsewhere for AA in the codex anyway.

And of all worst thing that could happen, the worst possible thing
Removal of so many units.
WITHOUT
ANY
REASON !!!

There is a reason; Either lack of an official model from GW, or because the rules can be found in FW-books, or because GW is afraid of getting sued due to copy-right infringements (Marbo).
Tyranids got the same treatment, and I expect that all codex in the future will too.

My comments in green.

MagicHat
13-04-2014, 17:47
Primaris psykers are Ld9 Minsc

Iron_Lord
13-04-2014, 17:48
My comments in green.

Rough riders - totaly unchanged, so they keep the role of dust colectors.
Actually, they went up 1 point in cost, which is abit :wtf: .
The basic squad is the same price - it's additional Rough Riders that cost slightly more than they used to.

corps
13-04-2014, 17:48
Globally this edition rules and codex can be call the "Why" generation books. unexpected changes etheir good or bad; expected change that players wait for sometimes more than an decade nd still not there. Fluff that is both hyperbolic and bland and a lot of time without logic. incoherence of translation from stupidely translate everything to the we don't translate unit name. Removal of unit without reason or comercial one but again that s look random like the vet counter example. Change of model that come from nowhere. Lack of proof reading, i can't remenber a higher number of typo or worst the feeling that you don't play the same game depending on your country.

So yes this edition is for me the "why" edition. Why produce so many thing if none are of good quality.

A few months before the 6 i finnaly started my marines army and i think i won't play much my old IG

Minsc
13-04-2014, 17:59
Primaris psykers are Ld9 Minsc

I already edited that out. ;)
For some reason I thought they where Ld7 but I was reading the Priest-entry.


The basic squad is the same price - it's additional Rough Riders that cost slightly more than they used to.

Correct, but then when was the last time you saw someone taking a min-squad of rough riders? (Or taking them at all).

Basically they went from 10 pop each and +5 for the sergeant, to 11 pop each with a free sergeant. Take at least one additional rider and they become more expensive than they used to be, which again, pretty much shows that GW don't know how to balance a unit properly. They should've just left them at their old cost at the very list, with 6th being a shooty edition and all.

Ironbone
13-04-2014, 18:14
Scout allows you to outflank. Don't underestimate 3 outflanking sentinels with autocannons.
Oh, ceartainly outflank have some usefulness :), but flanking sentiniels are very one use ( pop up, shoot and die ) weapon. Armoured sentiniels may not have such element of suprise, but personaly I prefer to have unit on field form beginigof the game, blasting enemy. With Av12, at lest they have some chance of withstanding return fire.


Actually, they went up 1 point in cost, which is abit :wtf:
Indeed, I missed that. Yet another sensless :wtf: change.


And he's also a very cheap earthshaker cannon when you think about it. He's hardly a bad choice.
And he's hardly a good one too. I remember one tournament, when for total 18 shots in 3 games, he hit anything once. I know, it's just 30 pts ( now even 20 ), so I souldn't expect too much, but this inaccuracy is just laughable...If I want "for lolz" unit I would rather pick deathstrike ( wich get actually a nice buff in reliability ) :p.

CariadocThorne
13-04-2014, 18:14
Catachans have own characters ( Straken/Harker ) in "core" IG codex. I would rahter see the comming of some less known ( if not no-name ) regiment. Or GW will follow the way of Black Legion, and will do suplement for "guard ultramarines" - cadians.

The reason for Catachans is that they are more different from the IG standard (ie cadians) than most of the other well known regiments. They could also use a supplement for the relatively small differences in some of the other regiments.

Honestly I think the biggest missed opportunity is not putting in veteran platoons. Letting veterans form blobs might be op, but veteran platoons would let you get more grenadiers (and grenadier pcs) in an infantry based list for regiments like Vostroyan, or camo cloaks for Tanith etc.

Hindle
13-04-2014, 18:18
While I totally agree on whats been said about the new dex. (seriously wtf moments on enough parts to make us question if anyone at GW even still plays the game anymore, or if they just employ anyone with qualifications)

That being said, I think every unit can be incredibly effective in the correct circumstances. Its up to the commander to create those circumstances.

I only take units that I want to take (because of nice models, or the style I have in mind) and ******** to the cost or effectiveness in comparison. If I wanted to win all the time Id take a leman russ parking lot, but that would be boring.

I think sometimes we forget its a game, played for fun and any disadvantages you have (such as HWT being overpriced and easily killed) should be accepted, and adapted for.

In relation to the HWTs, I stick them behind the rest of the infantry platoon, immediate cover save for intervening models. It also allows them to fire at separate targets (rather than a squadron of vehicles all concentrating fire), take orders (yes twin linked was nice, but rerolling armour pens and wounding are quite nice too!), claim objectives, get into harder to reach firing spots (such as inside buildings with a nice cushy cover save) and generally take up less space on the battlefield (which is actually a hell of an issue for some guard players deployment!).

People will shoot at them yes, but that's war ;) and most likely, if I fielded a squadron of Hydras rather than Missile launcher squads for example, I guarantee the Hydras would take just as punishing an amount of firepower as the Missile team would, so it hardly matters.

Having a retard write our codex shouldn't stop us from fielding the units we love and want to field, it just means we need to be more creative in their use. (this is sort of why I dont understand the army list building and tactics forums on here).

Gungo
13-04-2014, 18:21
Virtually every unit that was removed, either only had a Forgeworld model, or was very old, or didn't have an official model at all.

Tyranids went through the same thing.
I guess this is the gripe thread.
fron what we lost most isn't a big deal.
the wyvern replaces the gryphon role and is kinda better.
the collasus and medusa are kinda a loss without a real bunker buster artillery.
Chenkov was really only useful for send in the next wave and conscripts got cheaper. Kinda wish that rule was an upgrade for them.
alrehem was great for outflanking but that's a warlord trait now. Wish it was more reliable or given to creed.
Bastone just gave junior orders and was never used.
mogul kamir was a rough rider booster but still never made them competitive.
marbo was fun demolition delivery system but got weaker w interceptor
penal legions had no role, no models, and were random
and finally bodyguards were kinda pointless w lookout sir rolls. If you really want one that's reliable take nork deddog who is better now.

what bothers me the most about the new codex is what they didn't do.
hydra why remove auto targeter it wasn't a great hs weapon before you think it's better priced higher and weaker?
hwt seriously over costed especially flak missiles.
Harker losing infiltrate and move through cover took away the whole point of him and the catchan devils vibe and made him over costed.
i miss marbo fun but it's not like he was great

The good and slightly op
pask
wyvern
priest/primaris

The Emperor
13-04-2014, 18:26
Kinda wish that rule was an upgrade for them.

Yep. "Send in the Next Wave" really should've been an upgrade for Conscripts.


Harker losing infiltrate and move through cover took away the whole point of him and the catchan devils vibe and made him over costed.

I was so disappointed when I saw that! Only a few days ago I was plotting my Catachan Veteran Squad led by Harker and how I was going to kit them out so they'd look special and badass, and then boom, they took away all the cool abilities I wanted to make use of and now they're no more special than your average Veteran Squad. :\


miss marbo fun but it's not like he was great

Maybe not, but like you said, he's fun. It sucks seeing something fun taken out. I was also hoping that they'd redo the Penal Legion to make them more fun and interesting, and make it possible to use the Last Chancers again, but I guess that was hoping to much (What I wanted was an Elite unit which had a ton of options so that you could either recreate the Last Chancers or, if you're feeling creative, make up your own Penal Legion troops with different equipment than the Last Chancers. A unit like that is a real opportunity to allow players to get creative and make up unique combos).

nosebiter
13-04-2014, 18:29
Is it me or is 'bland' starting to become the main complaint about new army books/codexes

Lizardmen: bland
Tyranids: bland and uncompetitive
Dwarfs: bland
Astra: bland

Is it time to start worrying about the sheer lack of effort GW is lavishing on its recent creations? Have they just run out of ideas?


Yes and Yes.

And as a previous poster said, 6th is becomming the WTF edition. Lots of changes that makes no sense.

Iron_Lord
13-04-2014, 18:30
hydra why remove auto targeter it wasn't a great hs weapon before you think it's better priced higher and weaker?
hwt seriously over costed especially flak missiles.

Flakk missiles are overcosted compared to the Hydra as it is now. Compared to the previous version of the hydra, they'd be even worse. Which is probably why the Hydra got a slight nerf.

Could be worse. Back in the first Apocalypse book, it was 200 pts and didn't have a targeter then either.

Sir_Turalyon
13-04-2014, 18:38
Yep. I certainly wouldn't mind some carapace armor wearing Veterans. Or Veterans with camo cloaks. The only carapace armor we have are the Scions, and camo cloaks on only a handful of pewter sniper models.

*cough* Marine scouts kitbashed with Cadians (or better, Catachans) *cough*

Gungo
13-04-2014, 18:48
Yep. "Send in the Next Wave" really should've been an upgrade for Conscripts.



I was so disappointed when I saw that! Only a few days ago I was plotting my Catachan Veteran Squad led by Harker and how I was going to kit them out so they'd look special and badass, and then boom, they took away all the cool abilities I wanted to make use of and now they're no more special than your average Veteran Squad. :\



Maybe not, but like you said, he's fun. It sucks seeing something fun taken out. I was also hoping that they'd redo the Penal Legion to make them more fun and interesting, and make it possible to use the Last Chancers again, but I guess that was hoping to much (What I wanted was an Elite unit which had a ton of options so that you could either recreate the Last Chancers or, if you're feeling creative, make up your own Penal Legion troops with different equipment than the Last Chancers. A unit like that is a real opportunity to allow players to get creative and make up unique combos).

Ill say this about the harker nerf. He is over costed now as a simple relentless extra heavy bolter sergeant, but I honestly feel the real reason the infiltrate/ move through cover rules were removed is because that is ideally the best rules to add to a catachan supplement or catachan veteran squad formation (Aka catachan devil).

I do expect a catachan supplement/codex/data slate with some of the following units:
Veterans w infiltrate and move through cover
Scout sentinels w heavy Flamers. (No chainsaw since no model anymore)
valkyries
hellhounds
Sws (w sniper rifles or Flamers and demo charges)
HwS w heavy Flamers or heavy bolters
Ogryns
Warlord traits and some cool artifacts
(i don't expect Marbo to come back)
i kinda expect a tank kit pushed as well but I don't know of which tank is catachan heavily used.

Iron_Lord
13-04-2014, 18:53
His heavy bolter is now Rending, at least.

The Emperor
13-04-2014, 18:57
I certainly wouldn't mind a Catachan Supplement or Dataslate. And I really hope Marbo does come back. After all, if Be'lakor and Cypher can get their own Dataslates, why not Marbo? Maybe then he really can be a one man army? ;)

nosebiter
13-04-2014, 18:59
Yes!

Let us all hope that GW releases dataslates and supplements, that contains the stuff they removed from the codex, so that we can pay for them more then once :-)

nosebiter
13-04-2014, 19:00
Ill say this about the harker nerf. He is over costed now as a simple relentless extra heavy bolter sergeant, but I honestly feel the real reason the infiltrate/ move through cover rules were removed is because that is ideally the best rules to add to a catachan supplement or catachan veteran squad formation (Aka catachan devil).

I do expect a catachan supplement/codex/data slate with some of the following units:
Veterans w infiltrate and move through cover
Scout sentinels w heavy Flamers. (No chainsaw since no model anymore)
valkyries
hellhounds
Sws (w sniper rifles or Flamers and demo charges)
HwS w heavy Flamers or heavy bolters
Ogryns
Warlord traits and some cool artifacts
(i don't expect Marbo to come back)

i kinda expect a tank kit pushed as well but I don't know of which tank is catachan heavily used.

Prepared to be massively disappointed.

Gungo
13-04-2014, 19:05
Prepared to be massively disappointed.
Most of that stuff listed came from the third edition catachan supplement. I don't expect nearly most of that but some of it will likely be there. Even if it's just to push model sales. Which is why I expect some orgyns formation of some type, valks, and vehicles.

CariadocThorne
13-04-2014, 19:59
Globally this edition rules and codex can be call the "Why" generation books. unexpected changes etheir good or bad; expected change that players wait for sometimes more than an decade. Fluff that is both hyperbolic and bland and a lot of time without logic. incoherence of translation from stupidely translate everything to the we don't translate unit name. Removal of unit without reason or comercial one but again that s look random like the vet counter example. Change of model that come from nowhere. Lack of proof reading, i can't remenber a higher number of typo or worst the feeling that you don't play the same game depending on your country.

So yes this edition is for me the "why" edition. Why produce so many thing if none are of good quality.

A few months before the 6 i finnaly started my marines army and i think i won't play much my old IG

Conversely, the fantasy books have finally become quite balanced, even if they do include new rules or units which look like the result of someone listening seriously to a stoned teenager starting a sentance "Wouldn't it be cool if....."

I don't understand why they can't do a halfway consistent job on fantasy and 40k at the same time.

gitburna
13-04-2014, 20:01
I think the new Fire On My Target rule is better than before. Removing a cover save of 5+ would appear to be statistically identical to getting a reroll to hit for a BS3 model.

If the model is BS4, or the cover is 4 or 3 or even 2+, removing cover is much much better. Also snap firing at a flier - removing its jink save improves your odds of damage by x3/2 compared to x5/36.

If youre shooting at targets with no cover save at all (or no need to use cover) like for instance Marines, you'd be better off using first rank fire, second rank fire.

duffybear1988
13-04-2014, 21:02
I think it shows what a state the game is in when people have got to the point where they are saying how great it will be when guard get their supplements. Back in the good old days we wouldn't have had to wait or pay extra for most of these add ons because they would have just been in the codex.

I find I'm slightly sickened every time I read about somebody looking forward to the inevitable Catachan and Marbo updates.

Vaktathi
13-04-2014, 21:02
Flakk missiles are overcosted compared to the Hydra as it is now. Compared to the previous version of the hydra, they'd be even worse. Which is probably why the Hydra got a slight nerf.

Could be worse. Back in the first Apocalypse book, it was 200 pts and didn't have a targeter then either.
While true that it used to be a lot more expensive, the Hydra got a lot more than a slight nerf losing that ability and becoming open topped, it's capabilities are vastly less useful, especially against stuff like fast moving Skimmers where they could dump their cover save from a 3+ to a 6+.

Iron_Lord
13-04-2014, 21:04
They can get closed-topped back, if they pay for it.

Vaktathi
13-04-2014, 21:08
They can get closed-topped back, if they pay for it.
Right, but that still makes them more expensive and less effective than they were, and it's not like they were particularly broken or overpowered before (especially with a lack of interceptor).

They also changed it's fluff it appears, removing the bits about being turned on infantry and whatnot from the last codex. :p

Gropius
13-04-2014, 21:09
One thing that bothers me about this codex is a more general problem with GW codex design. The reintroduction of the armoury. It is such a mess. The idea was probably to save place by having all the equipment in one place and just refer from the unit entries to the armoury, but it just doesn't work. Too many units list the available equipment anyway because of different point costs or restriction to the the listed items in the armoury and in the armoury itself you have other restrictions as annotations.

corps
13-04-2014, 21:13
Yes i much prefer when you have your unit entry and under it the armoury it s has acces to. I dislike spendig my time looking for it

Gungo
13-04-2014, 21:16
I think it shows what a state the game is in when people have got to the point where they are saying how great it will be when guard get their supplements. Back in the good old days we wouldn't have had to wait or pay extra for most of these add ons because they would have just been in the codex.

I find I'm slightly sickened every time I read about somebody looking forward to the inevitable Catachan and Marbo updates.
I don't know what good ol days your talking about but I remember specifically buying a catachan supplement and Armageddon supplement for my alternate guard army lists. And as much as people cry about the rules in these supplements there was less rules for your specific army in the old supplements. And marbo is not coming back.

Voss
13-04-2014, 21:39
Conversely, the fantasy books have finally become quite balanced,

Eh. I think that the 6th edition 40k books are better balanced than they were. Its just the 'wouldn't it be cool' angle poisons the whole well, in both systems- instead of interesting armies with inspiring material, the focus is on unit specific special rules bloat, and far too many times, the giant pile of special rules simply fails miserably, leaving sensible people to just avoid the parts of the army list that fall through the floor for no apparent reason. (Like the DA land speeder vengeance, which makes the LR Executioner look almost reasonable). Just like the whateversaur bundled with the carnosaur for lizardmen, or the overpriced chaos beastie tacked onto the back of the WoC book.

Ssilmath
13-04-2014, 22:06
Using a unit because you think it's cool, but it isn't efficient? Decide you like the concept of a unit but the internet doesn't like it? Well, that's wrongfun, gotta nip that in the bud.

Lord Damocles
13-04-2014, 22:24
I think it shows what a state the game is in when people have got to the point where they are saying how great it will be when guard get their supplements. Back in the good old days we wouldn't have had to wait or pay extra for most of these add ons because they would have just been in the codex.
While the 4th ed. Codex had the unbalanced doctrines included, to play variant Regiments under the two prior lists required the purchase of either Codex: Catachans/Armageddon/Eye of Terror, a White Dwarf, or a Chapter Approved compendium; so the good ol' days weren't free or immediate either.

Voss
13-04-2014, 22:29
Using a unit because you think it's cool, but it isn't efficient? Decide you like the concept of a unit but the internet doesn't like it? Well, that's wrongfun, gotta nip that in the bud.
Uh, sure. The internet police are going to get you for making bad decisions. :angel:

On a completely unrelated matter, we can still talk about the good or bad decisions that GW made when putting together this codex.

CariadocThorne
13-04-2014, 22:47
Uh, sure. The internet police are going to get you for making bad decisions. :angel:

On a completely unrelated matter, we can still talk about the good or bad decisions that GW made when putting together this codex.

As long as you do it quietly. No-one expects the Inquisition.

Gungo
14-04-2014, 03:50
It's a good codex. And while it loses a few colorful characters. It's going to be a power combo codex with the ability to mix and match cheap psychic, orders, priests hyms, allied and special character rules with cheap spam units and plenty of special/heavy weapons to throw around.

Do priests have to use their LD of 7 for their hymns? Kinda makes them unreliable.

Hawkkf
14-04-2014, 06:27
Priests just take a ld test which always uses the highest in the unit. Only psychic tests require have a caveat to use thier own ld.

ehlijen
14-04-2014, 07:01
Doesn't strike me as intended, but yes, the ld test rules do not distinguish between unit or model basis for its allowance to use the highest stat present in the unit, unlike normal characteristic tests.

duffybear1988
14-04-2014, 08:26
While the 4th ed. Codex had the unbalanced doctrines included, to play variant Regiments under the two prior lists required the purchase of either Codex: Catachans/Armageddon/Eye of Terror, a White Dwarf, or a Chapter Approved compendium; so the good ol' days weren't free or immediate either.

Tyranid 3rd edition book had options for lots of biomorphs, IG 4th had doctrines, Marines 4th ed had traits, CSM 3.5 had everything. Yes there were extra add ons as well, but when you bought those they actually did throw extras into the mix, unlike now where it's just a warlord table and a set of relics with maybe a gimmicky rule or two. Plus there's price to think about as well. I'm sorry but to me having them dirt cheap or getting them inside the standard codex is the good old days.

Voss
14-04-2014, 09:05
It's a good codex. And while it loses a few colorful characters. It's going to be a power combo codex with the ability to mix and match cheap psychic, orders, priests hyms, allied and special character rules with cheap spam units and plenty of special/heavy weapons to throw around.
See, to me that sounds like the opposite of a good codex, dumpster diving the best cheap spam combos and plastering the holes with allies pretty much means that the majority of the codex is bad and/or uninteresting.

Coldblood666
14-04-2014, 09:26
Guard didn't need every little thing "fixed", they are a solid army with plenty of plastic kits. Guard players should be happy.

Ironbone
14-04-2014, 10:09
We ( well, at least I'm :p) kind of happy with new codex. Lot of changes are actually vey very good. Problem is also far too many chnges are utter WTF to just walk over them back to daily basis. Question "why ! why ! why !" will pop up many times in months to come.

Basicly every player expectations when new codex is comming, be it guard or any other army, are the same :
- neff OP stuff ( but not into oblivion),
- buff weak stuff ( but into OP )
- add some cool new units,
- and expand number of useful options to use.

Astra militarum do quite nice job when comes to points 1 and 3, but it's kinda very mixed feeling when comes to point 2 and a bit of a fail when comes to point 4. Some buffed units ( wets, lemans, primaris ) were actually kinda decent already. Not that buffing them was wrong, no :p, but of units that realy deserved buff ( ogryns, priests, RR, sentiniels variants, etc ) olny priests and chickens were upgraded. Ogryns, already very bad, in fact get even worse :wtf:.

And removing so many units. Except Marbo I do not use extensivly any of them, and can live happily witout them, but I realy do not like stealing them from codex for no good reason. While not any game-changers, they added extra colorfulness, theme and diversity to guard lists. And what was wrong with that ?

Hindle
14-04-2014, 19:28
Having now got the codex I have to say I quite like a few of the additions.

Warlord traits are nice, and Creed can take two of them. thats cool.
Expanded order list + range is 12" regardless of rank + warlord trait can boost command radius which is nice.
Snipers rifles are a mere 2 points
Chimera fixed (having the lasguns count as fire point for 5 models didnt make much sense to me) - points increase I feel is justified for this as well as additional equipment.

I found that one of my platoons came out 1pt cheaper than it used to be, and now includes the upgrade for flakk missiles, so thats a win.

Bolters on sergeants was an awesome move.

Priests are awesome, Im definitely getting 3 of them, although its a shame they have got so few weapons to chose from Eviscerators were like their signature weapon, but they have actually gained usefulness with battle hymns, so happy for that.

The enclosed compartment was a clever option for those of us with FW hydras, even though it costs, im glad they thought of us in that respect. I also like a few of the new vehicle upgrades such as recovery kits, camo netting being a modifier to cover rather than stealth (that way it stacks and can still be used if the vehicle moves). fire barrels are a nice one, gives some nice defensive abilities to the armour.

Im also loving the heirloom items. Death mask is immediate favourite (Ollanius Pius!)

Its a shame about penal legion stuff and other missing units. I remember when they actively encouraged converting units in codexes, but that rarely happens anymore, they seem to shun it since their pledge to only list units with models.

silentsmoke
14-04-2014, 19:36
Still going through the codex rules wise etc. From a fluff point I really like it. For those pure guard players, it is nice to have the codex reference to other books.

So page 29, the orders page in the codex, "take aim" refers to the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer - the Litany of Accuracy. Which is the correct page in the small book.

I like things like that.

The limited editon codex is very nice.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt29/silentsmoke13/7f368ecf800a17356e4118ccbfd22218.jpg

AngryAngel
14-04-2014, 19:50
I keep seeing the they took stuff away cited to say it makes the book bad. Now I dislike things taken away but they mostly took away crap. Penal legions were fun but not very interesting or useful, in my experience with them anyways. I never saw anyone saying Chenkov was very good and never saw anyone take his buffed conscripts as the without number mechanic cost too much for a sacrifice unit and yes I run conscripts, you want your chaff actually chaff costed so you can sacrifice it as the shield they are. Al rahem, Marbo they were fun and it is sad they took them out. As well the artillery variants I wish would have remained with new kits made.

With GW's release patterns it is possible we could see scattered kits of new units or upgrades to current. like RR's, vets, etc at some point.

Ogryns did not get worse. The loss of furious charge and gaining hammer of wrath is the only minor debuff they received. However they gained access to be given a priest, which is great. The ability to be joined by a normal commissar and not need a lord commissar. The slabshield Bullgryns are good and have a point, the ones with brute shield and maul are awful, the standard stayed about the same with the LD buffs from readily available characters and the buffs they can offer.

the leman russ needed a retool, and get a price reduction on most models as well as tank commanders for a buff, and primaris needed a good boost and got it as well.

The guard didn't need a huge change up, and they retained their feel, and just fixed some units while some, it wasn't a perfect fix and some units stayed the same which for them was not very good, but overall a very solid book. No Taudar but that really shouldn't be the level of what is or is not a good book.

Bloodknight
14-04-2014, 20:12
Ogryns did not get worse. The loss of furious charge and gaining hammer of wrath is the only minor debuff they received.

You can only fit 3 and a character into a transport now. Or 4 without, if you like seeing them run.


Penal legions were fun but not very interesting or useful

Meh, I used them as troops for my Ogryn army. They were the best match for an Imperial Beastman unit.

BaronIveagh
14-04-2014, 20:25
I felt it a bit of a letdown. There's a lot fewer options for infantry and a (very clear) emphasis on stormtroopers now. I can say the rules for the new transport are OK, but it's so ugly I'd play orks before I'd put one in my SL army.


Speaking of which, I'm hoping hard for a Steel Legion dataslate.

Ironbone
14-04-2014, 20:45
The loss of furious charge and gaining hammer of wrath is the only minor debuff they received
Well, so bad unit shouldn't get even minor neffs, but rather be upgraded to finaly have some use. And as Bloodkinght ( and I earlier in this thred ) pointed - they grow in size so much that unit that can fit into transport only extremaly small units.

AngryAngel
14-04-2014, 21:00
The transport capacity thing was a needless change for ogryns, however the unit size was a bit small anyways when taking a chimera, they tended for me to work a bit better walking anyways so you could get larger squads of them. The high toughness tended to keep small arms fire from really plinking them away, and more bodies was/is better for counter charge as well.

They jostled around ogryns and how they deal with transports for at least two book editions now, first they needed to LD check to get in, then they used up two spaces per body, now they use up 3. It is a question of if the LD issue being handled with more easily used characters, as well as abilities they offer, offsets the change from furious charge to hammer of wrath, and the increased size for transportation.

Though I don't think anyone will argue the brute shield power maul versions are truly poorly thought out.

Tiu
14-04-2014, 22:26
I dunno, I think giving a maul to the bone 'ead can be useful... might make him decent in a challenge, if theres a priest around. And thats 5+1 attacks with S7 for one model... not too shabby. Id never give all of them mauls, but for one or two models, it might be worth it.

Fithos
15-04-2014, 01:58
I dunno, I think giving a maul to the bone 'ead can be useful... might make him decent in a challenge, if theres a priest around. And thats 5+1 attacks with S7 for one model... not too shabby. Id never give all of them mauls, but for one or two models, it might be worth it.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Having a bone 'ead with a maul and shield makes a lot of sense. That way he can take power weapon hits and get a save and bash down light and medium vehicles if the opportunity presents itself.

For the record I don't think there is anything in this book that is bad which is actually an improvement over the last book (mogul Kamir/Nork Dedogg) However, there are things that are clearly better than others and despite the fact it seems to have been trying to emphasize Ogryns(Bullgryns) and Stormtroopers(or whatever they are called now) it falls short compared to how effective the Russ tank spam seems like it is going to be. I will not play Russ spam(I was an artillery guy before so I have no idea how my army is going to cope) but just looking at the book that seems to be clearly the most efficient option and that's a little sad. For power gaming it is an atrocious book that I think will get allied everywhere, but for non competitive fun play it looks like it could be really fun with every unit having a purpose.

Mauler
15-04-2014, 11:38
I dunno, I think giving a maul to the bone 'ead can be useful... might make him decent in a challenge, if theres a priest around. And thats 5+1 attacks with S7 for one model... not too shabby. Id never give all of them mauls, but for one or two models, it might be worth it.

Maulgryns are pretty much the best counter-assault unit available to the Guard, especially vs low-T high model-count units. If you've been silly (or just out-done) and have an important HQ or Troop blob that's been set upon by 30 Gaunts for example, a unit of 3 Maulgryns will, on average, remove ten Gaunts on the turn they charge and then another six per round of combat after. If they get the brunt of all 40 attacks from the remaining 20 Gaunts they take on average 2 wounds which is never enough to drop a Maulgryn even over 3 rounds of combat and you free up the HQ/objective/whatever over two rounds without losing a single 'Gryn.

They're blimmin' expensive (too much, for this edition perhaps) but the way that wounds can be allocated in assault make multi-wound models very resilient and 100% combat effective for much longer than single-wound squads. They may not be ideal for 6th with all the dakka, but if 7th is more balanced in regards to assaults and getting into combat then they'll probably be a more attractive option. They're already a great option for non-standard games like Zone Mortalis.

gitburna
15-04-2014, 13:59
I dont think their pricing is too bad - they're t5 with a decent save so they require a similar amount of shooting to put down as a taurox or chimera. I think they key will be making sure an opponent has to choose to shoot either them or a transport or other vehicle. They'll make nice countercharge units but also team them up with some sentinels and charge forward like riot police and thats quite a fearsome speedbump which will also protect the troops behind like ork exhaust clouds from warbikes. As usual, i think players with a decent amount of cover and not some sort of gladiatorial arena with all the terrain around the sides will get more out of them. Even assault terminators go down if you don't shield them properly.

agurus1
15-04-2014, 22:58
I'm pissed that Medusa and Colossus are out of the codex cause now I can't reasonably expect them in plastic

Gungo
16-04-2014, 02:07
I dont think their pricing is too bad - they're t5 with a decent save so they require a similar amount of shooting to put down as a taurox or chimera. I think they key will be making sure an opponent has to choose to shoot either them or a transport or other vehicle. They'll make nice countercharge units but also team them up with some sentinels and charge forward like riot police and thats quite a fearsome speedbump which will also protect the troops behind like ork exhaust clouds from warbikes. As usual, i think players with a decent amount of cover and not some sort of gladiatorial arena with all the terrain around the sides will get more out of them. Even assault terminators go down if you don't shield them properly.

The only decent orgyns IMHO is nork. The bullgryns w slab shields are great together they get a 3+ armour save. However I am not sure the grenade gauntlet is an improvement over the rippergun and I rather just pay separately to equip rippergun, grenade gaunt or power maul. In fact why have two listings? Just make bullgryns 40 points. With flak, grenade launcher and slab shield
carapace +5,
upgrade slab shield for brute shield + 5
upgrade grenade launcher to power maul +10
Or exchange grenade gaunt + slab shield for ripper for free.

this way you can have power maul + slab shield bullgryns for 50 or 55 with carapace.
or brute shield and grenade gaunt for 45
still kinda the same power level just more options to customize it.

the very bulky change is the biggest nerf imho although I was looking forward to furious charge and power mauls for str 8 first round atks.

I have a feeling if guard get a data slate orgyns/bullgryns will have some sort of formation that might just push them into competitive.

Grimbad
16-04-2014, 03:35
I remember when I was 11, 12, what was cool about Imperial terminology versus the names in other settings was that it mostly *wasn't* silly made up words or number-letter combinations. The giant robot wasn't a destructotron, it was a dreadnought. All the archaic, sinister, historical-sounding and real words were great. 'Psyker' was grating enough for the first few years. Now I just can't imagine anyone playing 40k with a straight face, it's got so many silly nerd words.
[Not a matter of nerd insecurity, but actually the big fictional polysyllables seem like they've be a real drag to actually have to say more than once a day. Thank goodness for second edition, where the silly words are at least easy to say and aren't these weird midword mashups. "Squat," "Zoat" and "Space Ork" are silly, but they're convenient in a way Astra Militarum just can't be.]

Voss
16-04-2014, 03:38
Ah, yes. The non-nerdiness of dreadnought or Gretchin or eldar, or squats. Khorne protect us from outsiders thinking us nerdy for using unfamiliar names (other than things like the above) whilst we move around model soldiers from the future.
:eyebrows:

Grimbad
16-04-2014, 03:42
Ah, yes. The non-nerdiness of dreadnought or Gretchin or eldar, or squats. Khorne protect us from outsiders thinking us nerdy for using unfamiliar names (other than things like the above) whilst we move around model soldiers from the future.
:eyebrows:

The thing is all of those at least sound like words, and most of them are.

MajorWesJanson
16-04-2014, 04:04
I'm pissed that Medusa and Colossus are out of the codex cause now I can't reasonably expect them in plastic

Why not? Whats stopping GW from putting out a plastic Basilisk/Medusa/Colossus kit in a year or two with a dataslate for the missing two tanks, then return them to the full codex in 7th edition?

insectum7
16-04-2014, 04:40
The thing is all of those at least sound like words, and most of them are.

I've got one for you - "Turbo Laser Destructor" :) you gotta admit it's pretty corny.

Grimbad
16-04-2014, 04:59
I've got one for you - "Turbo Laser Destructor" :) you gotta admit it's pretty corny.

Totally. That's a corny pile of genre words, but it beats stuff like venomthrope or bullgryn by a mile.
What would Chaplains would be called if they came out in 6th edition? Adeptus Soulguardians?

insectum7
16-04-2014, 06:41
Totally. That's a corny pile of genre words, but it beats stuff like venomthrope or bullgryn by a mile.
What would Chaplains would be called if they came out in 6th edition? Adeptus Soulguardians?

I guess I'm not clear as to how those are much different from Zoanthrope and Ogryn in the first place, other than Bullgryns being redundant.

duffybear1988
16-04-2014, 08:45
My main gripe is that although some of the new rules are great, the book has poor internal balance and plenty of WTF? moments. I do find it hilarious to see people who normally go on about this edition being all about fun and options now claiming that losing units and special characters is fine because they were rubbish and nobody they knew played them. So much for fun and options...

For every thing they improved they weakened, removed or failed to improve something else. I'm not even talking about power building here and making things OP, I'm just referring to the obvious stuff like expensive russ/demolisher, expensive sponsons, expensive weapon teams etc.

Maybe they should rename the codex Imperial Armour (with blob squad) because that's all we're going to see.

ehlijen
16-04-2014, 10:01
Why not? Whats stopping GW from putting out a plastic Basilisk/Medusa/Colossus kit in a year or two with a dataslate for the missing two tanks, then return them to the full codex in 7th edition?

Mostly, the fact that GW has, since the release of the previous codex, stopped copying forgeworld kits. Since the Valkyrie, GW has made up new flyers for new codices, rather than use existing FW designs, for example.

It might still happen again, but I wouldn't count on it. Some even more new made up artillery is more likely at this stage than a GW plastic medusa :(

Mauler
16-04-2014, 10:25
Why not? Whats stopping GW from putting out a plastic Basilisk/Medusa/Colossus kit in a year or two with a dataslate for the missing two tanks, then return them to the full codex in 7th edition?

Because GW generally have a policy of not pinching resin FW units for plastic, they've not done it for years. The Hydra is the only notable exception to this rule and that's a slightly different model. But that's the reason why Chaos didn't get a drop-pod, or non-daemon fliers, we'll not see a plastic Thunderhawk, didn't get plastic Krieg, Elysians...you can pretty much take your pick. If FW do a resin version you're 99% likely not to see a plastic box for it.



Mostly, the fact that GW has, since the release of the previous codex, stopped copying forgeworld kits. Since the Valkyrie, GW has made up new flyers for new codices, rather than use existing FW designs, for example.

It might still happen again, but I wouldn't count on it. Some even more new made up artillery is more likely at this stage than a GW plastic medusa :(


This.

Mauler
16-04-2014, 10:59
My main gripe is that although some of the new rules are great, the book has poor internal balance and plenty of WTF? moments. I do find it hilarious to see people who normally go on about this edition being all about fun and options now claiming that losing units and special characters is fine because they were rubbish and nobody they knew played them. So much for fun and options...

For every thing they improved they weakened, removed or failed to improve something else. I'm not even talking about power building here and making things OP, I'm just referring to the obvious stuff like expensive russ/demolisher, expensive sponsons, expensive weapon teams etc.

Maybe they should rename the codex Imperial Armour (with blob squad) because that's all we're going to see.

Obvious stuff like heavy weapon teams being cheaper, special weapon teams being cheaper & the majority of Russ sponsons being cheaper? The sponson weapons are all priced the same as in the SM codex for Marine upgrades apart from the heavy flamers which the Russ gets for half price.

Someone at GW thinks that a vehicle with an additional 1 front, 2 side armour, 360 turret arc & heavy bolter is worth 45pts more than a Vindicator. I think this is pretty fair when, unlike the SM option, an IG player can get three Demolishers in a single HS slot. Expensive point S10/AP2 ordnance anti-spam 4tw.

Iron_Lord
16-04-2014, 12:22
Because GW generally have a policy of not pinching resin FW units for plastic, they've not done it for years.

Yup - between the last IG and Tyranid codicies, and the current codex, Hydras seem like almost the only one.

Though a case could be made that they "pinched the old Winged Tyrant concept" a bit when they redid the Hive Tyrant.

Mauler
16-04-2014, 12:58
Yup - between the last IG and Tyranid codicies, and the current codex, Hydras seem like almost the only one.

Though a case could be made that they "pinched the old Winged Tyrant concept" a bit when they redid the Hive Tyrant.

Aye, the last three that spring to mind are the Vendetta, the Skyray from IA3, the flying Hive Tyranid & Trygon from IA4.

I know that they currently have a policy of leaving units in resin because I was told this by the guys from the Design Studio at their open day shortly before I posted http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?346750-A-Few-6th-Ed-Questions-Answered-At-The-GW-Design-Studio-Open-Day&p=6325458&viewfull=1#post6325458.

Iron_Lord
16-04-2014, 13:01
The Piranha, like the Skyray, was a Forgeworld model that debuted in IA3 and made it to plastic.

Quite a lot of upgrades are still Forgeworld only (extra armour, armoured crew compartments, etc) - I don't see that changing.

Gungo
16-04-2014, 13:18
Obvious stuff like heavy weapon teams being cheaper, special weapon teams being cheaper & the majority of Russ sponsons being cheaper? The sponson weapons are all priced the same as in the SM codex for Marine upgrades apart from the heavy flamers which the Russ gets for half price.

Someone at GW thinks that a vehicle with an additional 1 front, 2 side armour, 360 turret arc & heavy bolter is worth 45pts more than a Vindicator. I think this is pretty fair when, unlike the SM option, an IG player can get three Demolishers in a single HS slot. Expensive point S10/AP2 ordnance anti-spam 4tw.
I don't think SWS are overpriced in fact I don't see why hws should not be priced the same. Each have 6 guardsmen armed with 3 special/heavy weapons that you pay for seperately. They both should be worth 30pts a squad. At that cost a hwt would be competitive even if it still lacked accuracy or survivabilty.

Cost wise I see hwt, harker, ogryns (not bullgryn) the only obvious overcosted units.
roughriders and hydras are not quite overcosted they just need tweaked rules. The hydra should have the autotargeter. Why get two hydra when you can get an exterminator or quad gun cheaper. And rough riders can use some kind of jink save and fleet. That's it. They are still usable just not great for thier role. The codex is pretty good and even internal balance isn't that bad. Conscripts are useful veterans are useful and infantry are useful. Multiple hq and warlords are useful, special character warlords are useful. Sentinals are useful and vendettas are no longer the only fast attack choice. His has multiple useful tanks and artillery. We even have choices in transports. Elites are still not phenominal but they shore up weaknesses in the codex. Cc unit and a deep strike unit and a cheap sniper unit. Out of everything we lost the only thing that doesn't quite have a replacement (the wyvern is better then the gryphon) is the colossus it was a big str10 bunker buster however whenever they redo the basilisk kit I am certain it will be another dual build kit and have another artillery. We are going to see competitive tank lists competitive infantry lists and even a few strong but not quite as strong tempestus lists. The guard codex is one of the better codex releases on 6th and we haven't even got a supplement or dataslate yet. Which I can only assume will have a formation for ogryns so they can push those sales.

Mauler
16-04-2014, 14:13
I think that HWTs and Ogryns are expensive because as multi-wound models they don't drop in effectiveness as they take wounds if positioned well. I know that most people don't take SWTs for the lasguns but if you have a SWT & HWT with models equi-distant from an enemy and they're both taking the same amount of fire the SWT is at a higher risk of breaking first due to losing models. It's the same with blasts; land a blast or template onto a SWT and you risk losing some/most/all the models but a multi-wound model just takes a wound (as long as they're not IDed). It's the same in assault; if every model in your unit is in base contact and they don't receive enough wounds in a round to lose a whole model they stay 100% efficient and the next round's wounds can be allocated to another model, leaving the damaged one still fighting (this is why Maulgryns are great at killing both low-T tarpits and outlasting general Elites like Terminators). Hence the extra cost of HWTs vs SWTs for what is overall a similar unit.

Theocracity
16-04-2014, 14:15
I guess I'm not clear as to how those are much different from Zoanthrope and Ogryn in the first place, other than Bullgryns being redundant.

They're better because they were around when Grimbad was younger. It's a scientific fact that anything that came out when you were a kid is cool, and anything the kids are into these days is lame.

Minsc
16-04-2014, 14:44
It's a scientific fact that anything that came out when you were a kid is cool, and anything the kids are into these days is lame.

Ahh, this forum really needs a like-button.

Gungo
16-04-2014, 16:26
I think that HWTs and Ogryns are expensive because as multi-wound models they don't drop in effectiveness as they take wounds if positioned well. I know that most people don't take SWTs for the lasguns but if you have a SWT & HWT with models equi-distant from an enemy and they're both taking the same amount of fire the SWT is at a higher risk of breaking first due to losing models. It's the same with blasts; land a blast or template onto a SWT and you risk losing some/most/all the models but a multi-wound model just takes a wound (as long as they're not IDed). It's the same in assault; if every model in your unit is in base contact and they don't receive enough wounds in a round to lose a whole model they stay 100% efficient and the next round's wounds can be allocated to another model, leaving the damaged one still fighting (this is why Maulgryns are great at killing both low-T tarpits and outlasting general Elites like Terminators). Hence the extra cost of HWTs vs SWTs for what is overall a similar unit.
At the same time you have more assault attacks w special weapons. Generally can assault with them. Screen your special weapons with lasgun in front. Pay more for most hvy weapons. And are more vulnerable to insta death or str 6+ on a hvy weapon unit. I understand what your saying. But I think the differences offset each other. And the only reason special weapons squads are less desirable if they were at a similar points cost is they are more readily available in multiple other units. I still think at 30 points a hws would be balanced because even 3x las cannon it's 150 points for 3 bs3 shots. Which ironically is the same cost as 3x armoured las cannon Sentinals. And those two units are comparable.

Thomson
16-04-2014, 16:35
They're better because they were around when Grimbad was younger. It's a scientific fact that anything that came out when you were a kid is cool, and anything the kids are into these days is lame.

Not true for Playmobil. Playmobil has become much cooler than when I was a kid. Also not true for Lego Star Wars... come on... LEGO STAR WARS!

Well... for anything else... true.

Theocracity
16-04-2014, 16:45
Not true for Playmobil. Playmobil has become much cooler than when I was a kid. Also not true for Lego Star Wars... come on... LEGO STAR WARS!

Well... for anything else... true.

To be fair, Lego Star Wars combines two things that were awesome when I was a kid. It's potent stuff :D.

duffybear1988
16-04-2014, 17:06
Not true for Playmobil. Playmobil has become much cooler than when I was a kid. Also not true for Lego Star Wars... come on... LEGO STAR WARS!

Well... for anything else... true.

Playmobil is just so tacky looking now compared to how cool it used to be.

Star wars never gets old :) nothing beats lightsaber duelling your bosses kids around the office on a Monday morning.

ColShaw
16-04-2014, 17:10
And rough riders can use some kind of jink save and fleet.

Jink doesn't really make sense for a horse, I'm afraid (otherwise multi-legged critters like Hormagaunts could also be expected to get it). But don't all Cavalry have Fleet already, in the core rules?

Minsc
16-04-2014, 17:14
Jink doesn't really make sense for a horse, I'm afraid (otherwise multi-legged critters like Hormagaunts could also be expected to get it). But don't all Cavalry have Fleet already, in the core rules?

Correct, cavalry have fleet by default.

And jink for horses?
Yes, a horse galloping at ~70km/h should obviously be as hard to hit as a skimmer, flying at ~250 km/h. ;)

Vaktathi
16-04-2014, 17:24
Correct, cavalry have fleet by default.

And jink for horses?
Yes, a horse galloping at ~70km/h should obviously be as hard to hit as a skimmer, flying at ~250 km/h. ;)that same skimmer that people are able to stick grenades to through physical assault on a 3+? :p

Minsc
16-04-2014, 17:26
that same skimmer that people are able to stick grenades to through physical assault on a 3+? :p

A minor setback, courtesy of 6th Ed. ;)
Hopefully it will go away in a months time or so.

Mauler
16-04-2014, 17:33
At the same time you have more assault attacks w special weapons. Generally can assault with them. Screen your special weapons with lasgun in front. Pay more for most hvy weapons. And are more vulnerable to insta death or str 6+ on a hvy weapon unit. I understand what your saying. But I think the differences offset each other. And the only reason special weapons squads are less desirable if they were at a similar points cost is they are more readily available in multiple other units. I still think at 30 points a hws would be balanced because even 3x las cannon it's 150 points for 3 bs3 shots. Which ironically is the same cost as 3x armoured las cannon Sentinals. And those two units are comparable.

Indeed, but you don't buy SWSs for assaults, they're not designed that way at all. They're the short-mid range specialists, while HWTs are the mid-long range guys. Anything that combines long range and multiple shots or high strength (or both to be versatile) usually are more espensive than the shorter range weapons because they are more effective at killing at a distance, and that reach costs.

Your HWS maths is also off, I'm afraid dude. A 3xLC HWS is 105pts. A 3xLC Armoured Sentinel squadron is 150pts. Not so comparable, that's AV12 + mobility in that 45pts.

Generally GW design a unit to fulfill a certain role in a codex and price it as they think is appropriate. I think that 105pts for three two-wound stationary lasgun + LC HWTs is quite alright, they're not going to lose a lascannon to a single wound. A team of Ogryn/Bullgryn won't lose assault or ranged effectiveness if they take one wound. That's why they're steep in price, if you have a graph of wounds taken vs combat effectiveness for single wound model units it would be a straight line linear graph, whereas multi-wound model units would show their resiliency by having a stepped graph where they only start flaking out once they accrue enough wounds to lose a model. Resiliency costs more than extra attacks on the charge because if you're resilient enough you'll still be standing at the end of the combat.

Gungo
16-04-2014, 17:40
Correct, cavalry have fleet by default.

And jink for horses?
Yes, a horse galloping at ~70km/h should obviously be as hard to hit as a skimmer, flying at ~250 km/h. ;)
To be fair those horses are genetically enhanced and cyberneticly modified horses. It's not your standard pony. These specific horses are breed to breathe in hostile environments. Think of them less as my little pony and more of a military breed beast of war. Also I think they should only get a 5+ Jink ability when they run or charge. Of course without the ability to the boost it can't get any better. It's still a unit able to move just as far as a bike with 12+2d6 (on charge/rerollable)

Vaktathi
16-04-2014, 17:50
Generally GW design a unit to fulfill a certain role in a codex and price it as they think is appropriate. I think that 105pts for three two-wound stationary lasgun + LC HWTs is quite alright, they're not going to lose a lascannon to a single wound. Unless it's S6 or higher, then it inflicts ID, and a single hit getting through forces an Ld7 fallback test.

There's a reason HWS's haven't been particularly popular for years, particularly lascannon HWS's. Gun for gun, they're amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons in the game in terms of wound output/armor pens per point spent, while simultaneously also being one of, if not the, easiest to kill heavy weapons units in the game both from a point for point and absolute standpoint. Armored Sentinels are more expensive per gun, but also more resilient (particularly as a single S6 hit getting through can't force an Ld 7 break test) and, being vehicles, can move and fire at full effect each turn. If you look at say, SM Devastators with lascannons, they're actually cheaper per gun (for a squad of 5 or 6 dudes), more accurate, and more resilient, only difference is they can't hold objectives.

Ssilmath
16-04-2014, 17:57
only difference is they can't hold objectives.

Or be given orders letting them ignore cover or reroll armor penetration rolls. Or be given leadership ten from a nearby character to make those orders more likely. But those don't count, cause there's so much strength 6 shooting everywhere that they keel over and die before doing anything. Just like there's so much strength 8 everywhere that Warriors are useless and so much AP2 everywhere that Terminators are useless (And yet so much 2+ armor that power weapons and Ap3 are worthless).

OuroborosTriumphant
16-04-2014, 18:07
Unless it's S6 or higher, then it inflicts ID, and a single hit getting through forces an Ld7 fallback test.

There's a reason HWS's haven't been particularly popular for years, particularly lascannon HWS's. Gun for gun, they're amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons in the game in terms of wound output/armor pens per point spent, while simultaneously also being one of, if not the, easiest to kill heavy weapons units in the game both from a point for point and absolute standpoint. Armored Sentinels are more expensive per gun, but also more resilient (particularly as a single S6 hit getting through can't force an Ld 7 break test) and, being vehicles, can move and fire at full effect each turn. If you look at say, SM Devastators with lascannons, they're actually cheaper per gun (for a squad of 5 or 6 dudes), more accurate, and more resilient, only difference is they can't hold objectives.

A squad of devastators with 4 lascannons is 150 points (or 37.5 points per lascannon). A HWT with 3 lascannons is 105 points (or 35 points per Lascannon).

I mean, I'm not arguing that HWTs are good value or that they shouldn't be cheaper. But Devastators are not, in fact, cheaper per Lascannon.

Mauler
16-04-2014, 18:11
Unless it's S6 or higher, then it inflicts ID, and a single hit getting through forces an Ld7 fallback test.

There's a reason HWS's haven't been particularly popular for years, particularly lascannon HWS's. Gun for gun, they're amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons in the game in terms of wound output/armor pens per point spent, while simultaneously also being one of, if not the, easiest to kill heavy weapons units in the game both from a point for point and absolute standpoint. Armored Sentinels are more expensive per gun, but also more resilient (particularly as a single S6 hit getting through can't force an Ld 7 break test) and, being vehicles, can move and fire at full effect each turn. If you look at say, SM Devastators with lascannons, they're actually cheaper per gun (for a squad of 5 or 6 dudes), more accurate, and more resilient, only difference is they can't hold objectives.

Well yeah, but the ID factor is the same across the board for IG infantry so I don't really see it as a valid point, especially as any savvy player who wants their triple-las investment to stick around will back them up with a Commissar or have their Command squad nearby to support them if they're going to break. Personally I wouldn't use them for lascannons myself because they're expensive, fairly immobile and easily avoided. Devastators I don't really see many of these days, but that's a subjective observation rather than contributing anything. If you want Devastators with 3 LCs then that's fine but you've then got 2 guys sitting around playing cards while the lascannons that you've paid 25% more for than an IG HWS do their work. Point taken though, the extra toughness, armour & signum are pretty valuable. But like Sentinels, Devastators can't take orders though and they also take up a fairly precious HS slot. Sometimes I think that Marines are a bit too cheap...


Or be given orders letting them ignore cover or reroll armor penetration rolls. Or be given leadership ten from a nearby character to make those orders more likely. But those don't count, cause there's so much strength 6 shooting everywhere that they keel over and die before doing anything. Just like there's so much strength 8 everywhere that Warriors are useless and so much AP2 everywhere that Terminators are useless (And yet so much 2+ armor that power weapons and Ap3 are worthless).

Haha!!

Vaktathi
16-04-2014, 18:22
Or be given orders letting them ignore cover or reroll armor penetration rolls. Or be given leadership ten from a nearby character to make those orders more likely. But those don't count, cause there's so much strength 6 shooting everywhere that they keel over and die before doing anything. I'd rather say they "don't count" (don't really like that term because obviously they're not discountable and *can* prove very useful, but I'll use it for now) because they rely on specific other units being both included in the army list and being nearby when you need them (and potentially removed by the opponent), and add greatly to the true cost of the heavy weapons squad.


Just like there's so much strength 8 everywhere that Warriors are useless and so much AP2 everywhere that Terminators are useless (And yet so much 2+ armor that power weapons and Ap3 are worthless).I don't recall stating any of these things before, but you don't need much S8 to bop down Tyranid Warrior units (particularly as they're usually not taken more than once in most armies and usually only 5-6 strong). I likewise don't recall anything about Terminators being useless, and any arguments of mine regarding AP3 are usually in regards to short ranged, low Strength, small arms fire and it being overvalued on such platforms, not that AP3 in general is worthless.


Well yeah, but the ID factor is the same across the board for IG infantry so I don't really see it as a valid point HWS's are the only unit it where it ever comes into play, everything else is W1, or is a character going to be hidden in a unit.


especially as any savvy player who wants their triple-las investment to stick around will back them up with a Commissar or have their Command squad nearby to support them if they're going to break. Which makes them additionally more expensive to field compared to equivalents and adversarial equivalents, and those support elements can be removed (may be difficult, may not be, depends on the opponent and terrain). This is of course not counting that you must have 2 Infantry Squads and a Platoon Command squads before you can even take a Heavy Weapons squad.


Personally I wouldn't use them for lascannons myself because they're expensive, fairly immobile and easily avoided. Point exactly ;)


Devastators I don't really see many of these days, but that's a subjective observation rather than contributing anything. If you want Devastators with 3 LCs then that's fine but you've then got 2 guys sitting around playing cards while the lascannons that you've paid 25% more for than an IG HWS do their work. Point taken though, the extra toughness, armour & signum are pretty valuable. If you look at them point for point and gun for gun they're actually more effective even just in terms of raw firepower, for example, 310 pts gets you 2 squads of Devs with LC's give you 8 BS4 lascannons+signum, averaging 5.66 lascannon hits per turn, while 315pts of IG heavy weapons squads gets you 9 BS3 lascannons averaging 4.5 lascannon hits per turn, resulting in a 26% higher effective firepower output for the same points invested on the Devastators.


But like Sentinels, Devastators can't take orders though and they also take up a fairly precious HS slot. Sometimes I think that Marines are a bit too cheap... True they take up an HS slot, but the HWS's also have to deal with requiring 25 other dudes before they are even an option. I think ultimately GW just ignored platoons with the new book, I think they're identical in every way to the previous book.

Ssilmath
16-04-2014, 18:33
I'm more referring the general changing of environment to suit the argument that is pretty endemic to this forum and not your arguments in particular, Big V. If you compile all of the arguments together, you get an environment where nothing is good and everything is worthless. Clearly, that cannot be the case.

Vaktathi
16-04-2014, 18:39
I'm more referring the general changing of environment to suit the argument that is pretty endemic to this forum and not your arguments in particular, Big V. If you compile all of the arguments together, you get an environment where nothing is good and everything is worthless. Clearly, that cannot be the case.I never said anything is worthless, just that HWS's have some effectivness problems. Obviously they can *do* stuff and be useful, just that they're not going to be particularly impressive on a routine basis for the points you invest in them.

Ssilmath
16-04-2014, 18:41
I never said anything is worthless, just that HWS's have some effectivness problems. Obviously they can *do* stuff and be useful, just that they're not going to be particularly impressive on a routine basis for the points you invest in them.

For you, in your meta. Or do you speak for all metas everywhere, every playstyle and every persons values on what they find to be considered good/impressive for the points?

AngryAngel
16-04-2014, 18:42
My main gripe is that although some of the new rules are great, the book has poor internal balance and plenty of WTF? moments. I do find it hilarious to see people who normally go on about this edition being all about fun and options now claiming that losing units and special characters is fine because they were rubbish and nobody they knew played them. So much for fun and options...

For every thing they improved they weakened, removed or failed to improve something else. I'm not even talking about power building here and making things OP, I'm just referring to the obvious stuff like expensive russ/demolisher, expensive sponsons, expensive weapon teams etc.

Maybe they should rename the codex Imperial Armour (with blob squad) because that's all we're going to see.

Those that support more options and fun but then support taking things away are more just GW supporters and less supporting the direction of the game based on coherent design. The only reason the loss doesn't strike me harder is they buffed things I have a ton of and enjoy, and the things that got more lateral changes I'll still use with his book. It is never alright they take units away, people spent time and money to add them to their armies, they should be useable in future books. However that isn't to say they won't be back.



I don't think SWS are overpriced in fact I don't see why hws should not be priced the same. Each have 6 guardsmen armed with 3 special/heavy weapons that you pay for seperately. They both should be worth 30pts a squad. At that cost a hwt would be competitive even if it still lacked accuracy or survivabilty.

Cost wise I see hwt, harker, ogryns (not bullgryn) the only obvious overcosted units.
roughriders and hydras are not quite overcosted they just need tweaked rules. The hydra should have the autotargeter. Why get two hydra when you can get an exterminator or quad gun cheaper. And rough riders can use some kind of jink save and fleet. That's it. They are still usable just not great for thier role. The codex is pretty good and even internal balance isn't that bad. Conscripts are useful veterans are useful and infantry are useful. Multiple hq and warlords are useful, special character warlords are useful. Sentinals are useful and vendettas are no longer the only fast attack choice. His has multiple useful tanks and artillery. We even have choices in transports. Elites are still not phenominal but they shore up weaknesses in the codex. Cc unit and a deep strike unit and a cheap sniper unit. Out of everything we lost the only thing that doesn't quite have a replacement (the wyvern is better then the gryphon) is the colossus it was a big str10 bunker buster however whenever they redo the basilisk kit I am certain it will be another dual build kit and have another artillery. We are going to see competitive tank lists competitive infantry lists and even a few strong but not quite as strong tempestus lists. The guard codex is one of the better codex releases on 6th and we haven't even got a supplement or dataslate yet. Which I can only assume will have a formation for ogryns so they can push those sales.

I agree with the SWS and HWS notice. They base over cost the HWT's, if they started at the cost of a SWS and then kept current weapon upgrade costs, I think they'd be fine, for me personally.



Or be given orders letting them ignore cover or reroll armor penetration rolls. Or be given leadership ten from a nearby character to make those orders more likely. But those don't count, cause there's so much strength 6 shooting everywhere that they keel over and die before doing anything. Just like there's so much strength 8 everywhere that Warriors are useless and so much AP2 everywhere that Terminators are useless (And yet so much 2+ armor that power weapons and Ap3 are worthless).

Ok first off, they have but LD 7 which makes those orders not very reliable, especially to justify their cost. They can't be given LD 10 from a nearby character anymore read the updated Lord Commissar, their LD 10 only matters for fear, morale or pinning checks now. Unless your saying a good use of an HQ is to sit in a squad of 3 HWTs. There is no reason why the HWT's have to cost more then two standard guard, then have to buy their gun. Which is the easy fix and would leave them as, for me, good if still unreliable.

Vaktathi
16-04-2014, 18:45
For you, in your meta. Or do you speak for all metas everywhere, every playstyle and every persons values on what they find to be considered good/impressive for the points?
I didn't think most of my previous points were particularly meta related. Just looking at a straight comparison of SM dev's to HWS's for example and their relative firepower outputs and resiliency per point invested, that doesn't change. Or looking at what's required for HWS's to increase their effectiveness/mitigate their weaknesses. Those aren't "meta" specific issues.

Scammel
16-04-2014, 18:49
I didn't think most of my previous points were particularly meta related. Just looking at a straight comparison of SM dev's to HWS's for example and their relative firepower outputs and resiliency per point invested, that doesn't change. Or looking at what's required for HWS's to increase their effectiveness/mitigate their weaknesses. Those aren't "meta" specific issues.

I wouldn't worry too much about the whole 'meta' thing - you posted a perfectly reasoned and logical analysis of a particular unit's effectiveness and in return got a post that basically amounted to 'That's what YOU think!'

Gungo
16-04-2014, 18:52
I'm more referring the general changing of environment to suit the argument that is pretty endemic to this forum and not your arguments in particular, Big V. If you compile all of the arguments together, you get an environment where nothing is good and everything is worthless. Clearly, that cannot be the case.
Kinda sidetrack but ya we were just talking about how hwt, standard ogryns, and harker are overcosted. But I think the majority of the codex is solid.

I still think a 3 unit hwt could use a 15 point drop and be balanced in the codex an still be 90 points for a las cannon Hwt or 60 for a 3 unit bs3 auto cannon team.

And since this is the gripe thread my nomination for Most overcosted is harker. 55 points to upgrade a veteran w a relentless heavy bolter (that you can't even upgrade his armour save). I can't even use ur argument for a point tax based on multi wound unit.

Even ignoring all the stuff he lost for the same cost as last edition (fnp, infiltrate, stealth, move through cover) He's just a poor value. Make the guy a junior officer or something.

Ssilmath
16-04-2014, 18:57
I didn't think most of my previous points were particularly meta related. Just looking at a straight comparison of SM dev's to HWS's for example and their relative firepower outputs and resiliency per point invested, that doesn't change. Or looking at what's required for HWS's to increase their effectiveness/mitigate their weaknesses. Those aren't "meta" specific issues.

Yeah, they really are. The thing you like to harp on, Strength 6 instant death, is not nearly as big of a deal in a place where it's not as common. Not everybody plays in that kind of environment. In such an environment then yes, they're a bit overcosted for their resiliency. But we've also got people on the forum lamenting how easy it is to ID Ogryns, because of all the Str 10 and Monstrous Creatures smashing. It's kind of ridiculous. Take from the codex what works for you and your area.

insectum7
16-04-2014, 19:03
They're better because they were around when Grimbad was younger. Its a scientific fact that anything that came out when you were a kid is cool, and anything the kids are into these days is lame.

:) Sorta my ultimate point, yeah. But have you watched an episode of transformers recently? It hurts!!



True they take up an HS slot, but the HWS's also have to deal with requiring 25 other dudes before they are even an option.

Since you have to buy troops anyways, and IG platoons are a solid choice, I don't think you can really call it a tax. I have to buy Tactical squads to get my Devastators too, if you get my drift. Also, there should be a rule against comparing units across codexes point for point, or at least a big asterisk that implies differences in army context.

I'm one of those guys that uses a 4 Lascannon Devastator squad regularly, btw. Though I field a 10 man unit so I can combat squad them, and they're a little more resilient. Looking to add another unit of same, actually. I routinely feel the squeeze on my heavy support choices too, I wouldn't write it off.

Gungo
16-04-2014, 19:10
Yeah, they really are. The thing you like to harp on, Strength 6 instant death, is not nearly as big of a deal in a place where it's not as common. Not everybody plays in that kind of environment. In such an environment then yes, they're a bit overcosted for their resiliency. But we've also got people on the forum lamenting how easy it is to ID Ogryns, because of all the Str 10 and Monstrous Creatures smashing. It's kind of ridiculous. Take from the codex what works for you and your area.
Ogryns are not overcosted because of ID and str 10.
They are overcosted because they cost the same as last edition where they were already considered overcosted and most things in this edition are cheaper now. Furthermore for 5points more you get +1 armour save plus a shield that gives cover to models behind you and lowers your armour save by +2 when in base contact with another w shield. Multi wound model or not it's just not cost effective unit.

However it's likely certain to get some formation in whatever guard supplement/dataslate comes out next. Maybe bullgryns and not ogryns but whatever it's To easy for gw not to push the sales of this box set and encourage people to buy 3+ boxes for a squad of 10 ogryns.

AngryAngel
16-04-2014, 19:15
Those saying Ogryns are super easy to ID haven't played them much I'd wager.

I'd also say the best thing HWS have going for them is the fact they are troops. So you can still hold objectives with them and fire power that may get sent their way isn't going towards your blobs, or smaller end squads. Which I guess needs to hold you over until they get a more proper points cost finally.

Theocracity
16-04-2014, 19:18
:) Sorta my ultimate point, yeah. But have you watched an episode of transformers recently? It hurts!!


Yes...yes I have. It was a weird experience to have a visceral memory of the sounds and sights of that show while also having the adult perspective to realize how truly terrible it was.

Vaktathi
16-04-2014, 19:53
Yeah, they really are. The thing you like to harp on, Strength 6 instant death, is not nearly as big of a deal in a place where it's not as common. Not everybody plays in that kind of environment.That was only one of several. However, that said, I'm wondering about an environment where multi-shot S6+ weapons are rare. I'd really like to know what that is. I'm not joking there, I'd actually like to see such an example, because despite having played up and down the US west coast, in the Couv, Portland, Salem, LA, Fresno, San Diego, and other places, I just haven't run across one where such weapons are not common, because they're widely available on huge numbers of commonly take units. Assault Cannons, Scatterlasers, Tesla Destructors, Shuriken cannons, starcannons, deffguns, wave serpent shields, mutlilasers, grenade launchers, autocannons, missile pods, plasma guns, etc. You don't commonly face these weapons in quantity at all?


In such an environment then yes, they're a bit overcosted for their resiliency. Not even just their resiliency, but their firepower output as well, as noted earlier. Even barring the ID issue, if just two wounds get through (on t3 5+sv units), that loses 33% of the firepower and forces an Ld test.


But we've also got people on the forum lamenting how easy it is to ID Ogryns, because of all the Str 10 and Monstrous Creatures smashing. That would be the least of my worries with Ogryn, and it's not an argument I've been making. Their Ld and lack of effective delivery system are their primary problems to me.

insectum7
16-04-2014, 21:10
^I think the issue here is the lack of context and potential for threat saturation. While the Heavy Weapons teams are no doubt vulnerable to S6 weapons, in an army which can field a ton of vehicles this vulnerability becomes mitigated by the number of other targets which require high strength weaponry to deal with. If there are a number of tanks bearing down on the enemy and posing a bigger threat than a couple Lascannons, the enemy is going to use his high strength guns on the vehicles.

But even low strength basic weapons can hurt the HWS? Not if said weapons teams are in the back of the force and out of range, using the 48" range of the Lascannons effectively.

What this creates is a nice formation of advancing infantry and tanks, say, Hellhounds, Chimeras and Demolishers, with your more fragile support squads in the rear.


Edit: I think a better comparison of units would be the Heavy Weapons Team to a support Land Speeder. The Land Speeder has a Multimelta and Typhoon Launcher for three S 8 shots at under a hundred points. But its fragile as all get-out, and mostly uses it's maneuverability to bring the Multimelta to bear without exposing to much enemy fire, whereas the HWS can sit in a building for a cover save.

Mauler
16-04-2014, 21:16
HWS's are the only unit it where it ever comes into play, everything else is W1, or is a character going to be hidden in a unit.

Which makes them additionally more expensive to field compared to equivalents and adversarial equivalents, and those support elements can be removed (may be difficult, may not be, depends on the opponent and terrain). This is of course not counting that you must have 2 Infantry Squads and a Platoon Command squads before you can even take a Heavy Weapons squad.

Point exactly ;)

If you look at them point for point and gun for gun they're actually more effective even just in terms of raw firepower, for example, 310 pts gets you 2 squads of Devs with LC's give you 8 BS4 lascannons+signum, averaging 5.66 lascannon hits per turn, while 315pts of IG heavy weapons squads gets you 9 BS3 lascannons averaging 4.5 lascannon hits per turn, resulting in a 26% higher effective firepower output for the same points invested on the Devastators.

True they take up an HS slot, but the HWS's also have to deal with requiring 25 other dudes before they are even an option. I think ultimately GW just ignored platoons with the new book, I think they're identical in every way to the previous book.

See, this is where unit-for-unit comparisons start to break down as the only time that a unit operates on it's own is exactly that - when it's the only unit on the board which outside of newb games is really rare. The support elements of any unit can be removed like a Librarian giving psychic defence or an Ethereal providing FW support. Combinations of units is where the proper meat of efficiency is, what 2/3 units can get X done and can they go on to achieve Y & Z also? That's one for another time though I think. Of course, you say that a Platoon is needed for HWSs, but 11-21 Marines are needed before you can take Devastators and while on the FOC subject HWSs can claim objectives and don't take up a HS slot. Old ground.

Aye, Platoons do seem to be very similar to the old book, but if it ain't broke...

Gungo
16-04-2014, 22:00
You know what's funny about the militarum codex it's a very good book with a lot of flexibility in choices. However I don't see a must take unit or overpowered helldrake type unit in the codex. However i have a feeling it's going to be a top tier codex mostly because of the rules for allies.

maybe a pask punisher tank commander? I doubt it though.

nosebiter
16-04-2014, 22:14
I think it shows what a state the game is in when people have got to the point where they are saying how great it will be when guard get their supplements. Back in the good old days we wouldn't have had to wait or pay extra for most of these add ons because they would have just been in the codex.

I find I'm slightly sickened every time I read about somebody looking forward to the inevitable Catachan and Marbo updates.

I scratch my head at that as well.

Vaktathi
16-04-2014, 23:47
^I think the issue here is the lack of context and potential for threat saturation. While the Heavy Weapons teams are no doubt vulnerable to S6 weapons, in an army which can field a ton of vehicles this vulnerability becomes mitigated by the number of other targets which require high strength weaponry to deal with. While true to an extent, their extreme vulnerability to such weapons and the paucity of wounds required to destroy or force morale tests means an opponent doesn't need to waste a lot of firepower on them to get big results, especially dual-nature weaponry like autocannons.


If there are a number of tanks bearing down on the enemy and posing a bigger threat than a couple Lascannons, the enemy is going to use his high strength guns on the vehicles. Depends on the weapon and vehicle in question. A lascannon against a chimera full of Vets or a Leman russ? Yes. A Krak missile against a Hellhound? almost certainly. An autocannon against a Chimera? maybe but probably going to have a greater risk/reward ratio going for the HWS's unless the vehicle threat is overwhelmingly critical. A scatterlaster against anything? That's going for the HWS first. Alternatively, if the tanks are mostly short ranged tanks and/or transports, and especially if I'm going first, my very first target is going to be those HWS's if they're the one's providing long range fire support.

Hell, they may just toss a shot at the HWS just to take one guy out and force Ld tests. Shooting at HWS's has a very high rate of return for a minimal amount of investment. You don't need to put lots of fire into them to start causing big problems, especially with shooting that's not dedicated AT shooting (stuff like autocannons and scatterlasers and missile pods). I've destroyed other guard armies doing *exactly* that. Lob a couple barrage shots at the HQ CCS, put a wound or two on some HWS's with multilasers or autocannons, and then put everything else into the other units.



But even low strength basic weapons can hurt the HWS? Not if said weapons teams are in the back of the force and out of range, using the 48" range of the Lascannons effectively. There's plenty of ways for stuff to get near them (pods, outflanking, scout moves, transport+disembark, etc), and it's entirely possible for them to start taking small arms fire on turns 1 and 2.



What this creates is a nice formation of advancing infantry and tanks, say, Hellhounds, Chimeras and Demolishers, with your more fragile support squads in the rear. This would dovetail up to my earlier note, if those HWS's are sporting lascannons and the other tanks are transports or short ranged tanks, I'm not going to hesitate to pop a few shots into them to strip your long range AT capabilities.



Edit: I think a better comparison of units would be the Heavy Weapons Team to a support Land Speeder. The Land Speeder has a Multimelta and Typhoon Launcher for three S 8 shots at under a hundred points. But its fragile as all get-out, and mostly uses it's maneuverability to bring the Multimelta to bear without exposing to much enemy fire, whereas the HWS can sit in a building for a cover save.the skimmer can generate it's own cover save just by moving, and being AV10 is still more resilient than the HWS, and doesn't have to worry about Morale tests if you kill one of them. That said, I'm also not a huge fan of Speeders either, precisely because they're so easy to kill. That HWS's are so much more notably easier to kill and as expensive as they are is my issue with them.


The support elements of any unit can be removed like a Librarian giving psychic defence or an Ethereal providing FW support. Entirely true, however other units don't rely on them to anywhere near the same degree generally, if a Devastator squad loses its Libby support, that sucks but its not the end of the world. Lose your Ld/orders support for the HWS and its firepower output and resiliency drops a lot more, both in an absolute sense and a relative one.



Combinations of units is where the proper meat of efficiency is In most cases I'd agree, but HWS's rely in it far more to do their job, while not being correspondingly cheaper relative to their basic effectiveness.


what 2/3 units can get X done and can they go on to achieve Y & Z also? That's one for another time though I think. Of course, you say that a Platoon is needed for HWSs, but 11-21 Marines are needed before you can take Devastators and while on the FOC subjectRight, but you can take the Dev's no matter what your troops are, while the 25 other platoon dudes still need at the very least one more Troops selection, and you can't take HWS's at all if you wanted to run an all-vet army for instance.


HWSs can claim objectives and don't take up a HS slot True, and the not taking a HS slot is a good point, though in 5 years I've yet to see an HWS actually hold an objective at the end of a game :p

Ssilmath
16-04-2014, 23:59
However, that said, I'm wondering about an environment where multi-shot S6+ weapons are rare.

When I played in New Mexico, according to what I remember, mid strength shots were not as over represented as what your experience is. I honestly don't have enough games in my new meta to know how it goes, but my limited experience has seen Helbrutes and Forgefiends survive reasonably well so I doubt it's at the same level you experience either. So these places do exist. I don't know if they are typical, but they do exist.

My other references to other arguments illustrate this. Everybody has a reason why whatever unit they are hating on is bad/sub par, and those reasons are incredibly varied. The only conclusions I can pull from that is either people are greatly exaggerating circumstances, only remembering extreme cases or that there are many different environments where some things stand out as good and others as bad.

For a personal anecdote, in New Mexico Space Marines and LOS terrain were pretty common and thus my Thousand Sons did quite reasonable. But I sure don't expect to walk them into your store and see last more than turn or two.


True, and the not taking a HS slot is a good point, though in 5 years I've yet to see an HWS actually hold an objective at the end of a game :p

And I have. Who's right then?

AngryAngel
17-04-2014, 00:19
I've seen a 10 strong group of conscripts kill a blood thirster. I don't take that as evidence they do well at such.

Ssilmath
17-04-2014, 00:22
I've seen a 10 strong group of conscripts kill a blood thirster. I don't take that as evidence they do well at such.

If somebody is going to declare personal experience as valid, then shouldn't other people's personal experience be valid? I've had games where my HWT were all targeted and killed in short order, and I've had games where they lasted the entire game and did disproportionate damage to their points cost. Overall though, they have a tendency to preform solidly if not amazingly. So who's in the right here?

AngryAngel
17-04-2014, 00:51
Well someone can love them all they want, and dislike them all the same as well. Looking at it however, I think both sides can see they aren't very cost efficient. Which is the crux of what is being argued about them. Which is what boggles my mind, that they aren't placed at the cost of 2 guard, then the weapons cost. Instead you spend an extra 5 points per heavy weapon team then the cost of the heavy weapon they carry. Why ? when a 2 wound model with the same physical stats as 2 separate guys is if anything less durable.

Ssilmath
17-04-2014, 01:05
Well, let's see. Under that pricing system, an Autocannon Squad is 54 points instead of 75. Personally, that seems to cheap for me. Plus keep in mind that you don't have the opportunity cost of losing a bunch of anti infantry shots with them, which makes them a bit more valuable. If you play your foot aggressively like I do, they're also handy for sticking on a home objective. Last time I ran foot Guard, I had 2 squads each of Autocannon and Heavy Bolters sitting on my home objective getting orders from the Company Command Squad. I think I only lost half of them, though I lost the overall game.

That said...yes, they are a bit overcosted in a general sense. How overcosted is going to depend on other factors though, and in places I can easily see them being valued over other parts of the codex. Depending on army composition, they can go from an effective firebase (Not as effective as I had thought though, hadn't seen that Commissars Aura doesn't effect orders) to a complete waste of points.

The Emperor
17-04-2014, 01:42
Well someone can love them all they want, and dislike them all the same as well. Looking at it however, I think both sides can see they aren't very cost efficient. Which is the crux of what is being argued about them. Which is what boggles my mind, that they aren't placed at the cost of 2 guard, then the weapons cost. Instead you spend an extra 5 points per heavy weapon team then the cost of the heavy weapon they carry. Why ? when a 2 wound model with the same physical stats as 2 separate guys is if anything less durable.

Yeah. In most cases, a 30 point squad with six 1-wound guys, three of which carry heavy weapons, would be far more preferable to the three 45-point heavy weapon teams. I'd much rather have three guys with lasguns soaking up any wounds directed at the squad than losing heavy weapons after taking two wounds from basic weapon fire or getting ID'ed by a single Str 6+ shot. Seriously, if you have turn one and an assault cannon in range, why wouldn't you shoot up the heavy weapon squad? You've got pretty good odds of taking out an overly expensive unit with three heavy weapons and getting an easy First Blood kill to boot. If the opportunity presents itself I'd do it most every time just for the easy First Blood kill if nothing else.

Gungo
17-04-2014, 02:06
Yeah. In most cases, a 30 point squad with six 1-wound guys, three of which carry heavy weapons, would be far more preferable to the three 45-point heavy weapon teams. I'd much rather have three guys with lasguns soaking up any wounds directed at the squad than losing heavy weapons after taking two wounds from basic weapon fire or getting ID'ed by a single Str 6+ shot. Seriously, if you have turn one and an assault cannon in range, why wouldn't you shoot up the heavy weapon squad? You've got pretty good odds of taking out an overly expensive unit with three heavy weapons and getting an easy First Blood kill to boot. If the opportunity presents itself I'd do it most every time just for the easy First Blood kill if nothing else.

Lol I think that was the only point of the debate. They are slightly over costed and should cost as much as the sws at 30 base and buy their weapons separately. Still means 90 point las cannon teams and 60 point auto cannon teams.

and orgyns (not bullgryns) should be 5 points less each. However I truly feel some formation is going to contain them.

Harker is so over costed it's not even funny. He be worth it if u make him a junior officer with voice of command. However I do miss the infiltrate option. He was under costed before with move through cover, fnp, stealth and infiltrate.

Voss
17-04-2014, 02:11
Yeah. In most cases, a 30 point squad with six 1-wound guys, three of which carry heavy weapons, would be far more preferable to the three 45-point heavy weapon teams. I'd much rather have three guys with lasguns soaking up any wounds directed at the squad than losing heavy weapons after taking two wounds from basic weapon fire or getting ID'ed by a single Str 6+ shot. Seriously, if you have turn one and an assault cannon in range, why wouldn't you shoot up the heavy weapon squad? You've got pretty good odds of taking out an overly expensive unit with three heavy weapons and getting an easy First Blood kill to boot. If the opportunity presents itself I'd do it most every time just for the easy First Blood kill if nothing else.

And that assumes you're using something as 'normal' for modern 40k as an assault cannon. A baleflamer pretty much wipes the entire unit, as does an opposing hellhound. Tau can similarly murder it at will, with their choice from large swaths of the army. And generally speaking the hellhound has the highest rarity value on the table for what is considered a regular game of 40k.

AngryAngel
17-04-2014, 02:28
Well, let's see. Under that pricing system, an Autocannon Squad is 54 points instead of 75. Personally, that seems to cheap for me. Plus keep in mind that you don't have the opportunity cost of losing a bunch of anti infantry shots with them, which makes them a bit more valuable. If you play your foot aggressively like I do, they're also handy for sticking on a home objective. Last time I ran foot Guard, I had 2 squads each of Autocannon and Heavy Bolters sitting on my home objective getting orders from the Company Command Squad. I think I only lost half of them, though I lost the overall game.

That said...yes, they are a bit overcosted in a general sense. How overcosted is going to depend on other factors though, and in places I can easily see them being valued over other parts of the codex. Depending on army composition, they can go from an effective firebase (Not as effective as I had thought though, hadn't seen that Commissars Aura doesn't effect orders) to a complete waste of points.

Where are you getting 54 by the new cost ? They'd be 30 points for the squad then 30 for the auto cannons, so 60 as opposed to 75, I don't think that is overly too cheap for their line of sight issues, and squishy nature.

Yeah the loss of LD from the commissar thing sucks bad for them. I'd like them to be cost effective, if squishy firebase. As is they are a flavor choice you'll just see more of when someone is running only foot guard.

Ssilmath
17-04-2014, 02:30
Guardsmen are 4 points base, not 5. Don't forget the ten point sergeant upgrade.

The Emperor
17-04-2014, 02:43
Oh, and a roughly comparable Space Marine Devastator Squad (5-man squad) with three lascannons is only 25 points more expensive, and for those 25 points you get one less wound, but two ablative bodies to take wounds without losing a heavy weapon, Toughness 4, 3+ Save, Ld 8, And They Shall Know No Fear, and BS 4.

Minsc
17-04-2014, 02:43
Guardsmen are 4 points base, not 5. Don't forget the ten point sergeant upgrade.

Well, the sergeants doesn't always cost 10 points, or even any additional points over the regular Joe's.
*Looks at Rough Riders*

So while you can guess or assume that they are 4 points base, you can't know for sure.


Oh, and a roughly comparable Space Marine Devastator Squad (5-man squad) with three lascannons is only 25 points more expensive, and for those 25 points you get one less wound, but two ablative bodies to take wounds without losing a heavy weapon, Toughness 4, 3+ Save, Ld 8, And They Shall Know No Fear, and BS 4.

But they aren't troops and can't receive cool orders! :)

Gogo cross-codex comparisons, they always end well...

ehlijen
17-04-2014, 02:45
Guardsmen are 4 points base, not 5. Don't forget the ten point sergeant upgrade.

That's an assumption. The 6 guardsmen Special Weapon Teams without sergeants are clearly composed of 5pt guardsmen.

Minsc
17-04-2014, 02:50
That's an assumption. The 6 guardsmen Special Weapon Teams without sergeants are clearly composed of 5pt guardsmen.

Good point.

Also, if regular guardsmen where 4 pts, that would mean that the Sergeant in infantrysquads would cost...14 points. :wtf:

The Platoon Commander would also cost 14 points, but unlike the Sergeant he would get +1 WS/BS and Voice of Command for free.

...Or we can just safely assume that the Sergeant doesn't cost any additional points (irrelevant either way really since you can't buy more bodies to the squad in the first place), and that the Platoon Commander actually costs +10 points.

Ssilmath
17-04-2014, 02:50
That's an assumption. The 6 guardsmen Special Weapon Teams without sergeants are clearly composed of 5pt guardsmen.

Well, fair enough. Even so, 60 points seems to be pushing it for being too cheap to me, but that's just personal opinion.

AngryAngel
17-04-2014, 04:06
Guardsmen are 4 points base, not 5. Don't forget the ten point sergeant upgrade.

I just round it for the sgt included and believe I did say at some point in this make them the cost of the SWS if not then let me amend and say make them so, which is 30, so 5 points a guy. I think the extra point spent is fine

I don't think 60 is too cheap, as adding more squads of them add up fast. They're low toughness, poor maneuverability, and poor sighting fire support troops ( just try seeing over aegis lines or your own line troops sometimes, damn those kneeling legs. )

If you want compare them to other caddies for such. Like armored sentinels, for 150, your looking at less shots, more maneuverability, much more durable platforms that can also bog down some targets.

For the 120 then of the heavy weapons, which have lower sight lanes, better use of cover ( arguable ) much softer, LD concerns, they can get orders, but LD 7 isn't sure to get them off. They can take objectives and would have more shots over the sentinels. As well as being a bit cheaper.

For that, I would find them comparable and they'd have a place, with that weapon set up as the argued of unit for the moment.

At current cost, the sentinels remain the same, and the weapon squads match the cost at 150. They win shots with double shots, much softer to return fire, LD concerns, but orders, but no point savings.

I guess it would be do you like mobility and durability, over weight of fire and scoring potential.

I think that is the best comparison however with them. As once you go to ML or Lascannons I think the sentinels beat the HWS hands down as the cost keeps going up for the HWS and the Sentinel it tops out.

I think the point cost reduction would have done worlds of good for the HWS. As well the squad has poor internal balance with the weapon selection. The mortars are a touch too expensive when compared to a wyvern which is worlds better and comparable with point cost. There is no reason to take a heavy bolter over an autocannon for the same point cost. ML's are still a bit too pricey and they still demand way too much for flakk, as if they just don't understand or are blinding following a policy set into place. Lascannons again are too pricey, as even with the increased cost, I think a vendetta is better platform for the lascannons. It uses your fast, and can't score but it is twin linked without orders, can get flank shots much easier and still carry a SWS or platoon command squad, I'd say SWS as they are much better for suicide drops.

However, down 15 pts and the HWS seems like a tastier choice, or at least as tasty as some of the other options offered.

Ssilmath
17-04-2014, 04:10
I just round it for the sgt included and believe I did say at some point in this make them the cost of the SWS if not then let me amend and say make them so, which is 30, so 5 points a guy. I think the extra point spent is fine

That was me having a derp moment there, so that was my bad. Still think 60 is on the low end for price, though 75 is high. I dunno.

AngryAngel
17-04-2014, 04:31
Well I placed a deeper breakdown up above in a post edit and yeah I can see where 60 could feel too low, but 75 just feels too high and 60 keeps the prices easier to run. Maybe drop the base cost by 10 points ? Then it is still more expensive then, but at least cheaper, and would end up at 65 pts, speaking of auto cannons at least.

MajorWesJanson
17-04-2014, 05:24
Well I placed a deeper breakdown up above in a post edit and yeah I can see where 60 could feel too low, but 75 just feels too high and 60 keeps the prices easier to run. Maybe drop the base cost by 10 points ? Then it is still more expensive then, but at least cheaper, and would end up at 65 pts, speaking of auto cannons at least.

What about bumping the HW squad to 10 men with a sarge for 50 points that must take 3 heavy weapons. And The SW Squad at 5 men including a sarge for 30 points, may add 5 more for 20 points, take 2 special weapons per 5 models?

AngryAngel
17-04-2014, 06:06
I wouldn't mind the HWS getting more guys, at least it would give some better leadership as well as a buffer of wounds for the increased cost of the squad already.

The SWS is alright, not hyper reliable but they tend to just be some extra bodies for a cheapish price.

Sazabi
17-04-2014, 06:19
Overall I think the codex is solid. My only gripe is that Pask (and generic commanders) has to take a squad of tanks. I always like the lone ace vanquisher supporting the advance. Oh well.