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Ironbone
10-04-2014, 20:41
Finaly I was able to lay my sneaky hands on Militarum Tempestus codex ( Astra Militarum is yet to come), and after long in-depth reading, I'm still not sure what to think about it. Some stuff is realy nice, but lot other is lame, even for not so great GW standards. Lack of proper proof-reading ( how typical for GW product :rolleyes:) is visible. Well, I may just say what I liked, and what I disliked about new stormies dex.

Good sides :

Fluff - well, it's isn't anything jaw droping, nor super cool, but overall, fluff is, well, decent enough. Also, as book is just 72 pages long, there isn't that much of it. Still, portaing sicons as brainwashed, indoctrinated from childhood, cold-blood efficient killers kinda fits the setting as whole. Few parts ( one use disposable bionics ) made me even chuckle a little.

And speaking of - medics. The are finaly 15 pts upgrade. For ****** sake, guard players been waiting so long to have usable, not overpriced medic upgrade. It's still bit lame that it's the same price that SM/DA pay for their medics, despite marines having T4, and FnP beeing a lot better rule on them, but still, I'm happy to have ability to have FnP without overpaying so damm much.

Alies - well, MT is bit wired when comes to aliances. Good thing, they aren't yet another "alies not alies" army like =I= or knights. But when I speak about their aliances beeing wired, there are actually (at least ) 4 ways to use Sicons units. One as primary detachment, one as secondary alied detachment, one as formation, and finaly ( as per WD issue 09 ) field platton of them as IG/AM elite choice ( platton of multiple units as single elite choice, only IG can do that ).

Orders - they are similar but not the same as IG ones, wich is good. After all, there is limit of orders commander can issue to his troops on battlefield ;). Only "rending against monsters" is bit lame, as with hot-shots helpless Stg, basicly any MC you can wound, you will wound on 6+ anyway, and almost all monsters in the game are sv 3+. Are there more than just two ( tyranfex wich have 2+ save, and c'tan shard who have T7 ) MC in the game that rending on hot-shots would made more sense ? Ofc, it's a lot diffrent matter when this comes against vechicles.

Models - well it's more matter of personal preference, but like with most GW plastic models, they look absouletly adorable. Oh, and conversion potencial is great too.

However, it's not all about sunshine and rainbooms :

Hot-shot lasgun remain unchanged - Oh how I rage about this :mad:. Biggest flaw of past ed Guard stormies was their weapon. Hot-shots do not only does not benefit from Frf!Srf! order ( despite order beeing about lasguns, and beeing renamed hot shot lasguns form hellguns :shifty:), and as GW tend to terribly overvaluse almost everthing in the game with AP3, turning so thinked marine-killers into uselessness because of cost, so does storm troopers payed so too much for their weapon, despite it beeing more hindrence than benefit. Almost all benefits of having Ap3 are wasted because of crap Str. Marines are wounded on 5+. Bikes, Plague marines, Cavalary lords are even worse, on 6+. Oh, and bikes have cover saves, so part of your expensive Ap3 is wasted too :shifty:. Also, this gun have absymal range. 6" on pistol is just a joke, good luck ever useing it outside cc. And lasgun isn't any better either. To get two shots, model have to be within 9" for enemy, wich is not only hard to do with so fragile models, but also in order to use gun full ( and even then, very low ) potencial, unit have to expose themselfs to devastanig return fire and assoults. Why volley gun wich is basicly just a bit larger hot-shot lasgus CAN have Str4 and be usefull, not useless :wtf::shifty::rolleyes: ?

Weapons pricing - meele ones to be clear. Why on earth would anyone who played this game think that guard Str 3 power weapon ( at least it's power weapon, not just power sword :rolleyes: ) is worth 15 pts ? And power fist worth 25 ? Same price as SM one, despite SM beeing a lot better ? That's not just design flaw, that disconection with basic game reality....

Holes - I mean proof reading ( assuming there was any ) ceartainly does not do a very good job. Not that codex fell rushed, no. But there are some few wired typos in book. If one person like me was able to spot them with less than hour of reading, then it's possible to any mentaly capable reader or game designer to do at least the same, if not better. Is hireing ONE person to do that job for ONE day is realy that hard or expensive GW :eyebrows:?
Here are some exaples :
- warlord nr 4 speaks about warlord and his platton, despite there is no such option in tempestus dex. You can use tempestus platton as elite choice in IG/AM army, but in that case, tempestor prime may not be a warlord
- both armoury and weapon profiles make memention about heavy stubber, despite no unit in codex many take it, and it isn't on vechicle equpment list
- same goes for cammo netting

So, what are your thoughts about Militarum Tempestus codex ?

duffybear1988
10-04-2014, 20:43
It's another failed cash cow. What's next codex space marine scout bikes?

Inquisitor Shego
11-04-2014, 12:12
It's a nice book with some okay options. It's just not 30's worth. This book, however pretty, fails in my eyes to justify its existence. It is the last of these books I will be buying

Actually to go into more detail.

Storm Troopers losing their specialist perks peed me off. The fact they're forced to take Tonka Trunks instead of Chimeras cheesed me off too. I hate the ornate trimming of the armour, and I really really really despite the forced tax of a veteran sergeant tied to using a pistol and not a rifle himself. Ultimately, there's not a lot in this book for me to bad mouth because the content is so thin. There's almost nothing in this book for a gamer to use. I hate to be bitter, but seriously, this is Codex Buy Our New Playsets And Toys.

Edit - I also don't quite appreciate the satire of the training either. The Epsilic Walruses are selected by blasting 400 babies into space. Only those who are the strongest can defy physics, crawl over the other babies, endure the void training, and punch through the closed bulkhead, before finally being allowed to enter the regiment. One time, their command killed Abaddon with a spoon, only to be told by Cyrus of the Blood Ravens it was "a good kill, Initiate, but he had not yet earned his place" They currently guard the Emperor's summer home from Hrud pimps turning tricks.

The fluff makes them out to be so badass, but they're LD7 :-, I hope they're making guardsmen LD6 then to reflect this, with LD7 sergeants.

Marshal
11-04-2014, 12:31
Monstrous Creatures with higher than T6 that were not covered: Wraithlord, Wraithknight, Cronos Parasite Engine, Talos Pain Engine

Anyways, back on point, because I personally have very little interest in this codex, it seemed very light to me as a stand alone (much like the Inquisition codex does too, but at least that can be thrown into another codex as if it were the same). It's 3 new units and 2 units that are rehashed with a points difference and slight rule updating. The warlord traits were pretty lackluster to say the least and cements this codex as not being a stand alone at all, but rather an addition to be taken as allies for something else. That being said, I had no problem paying full price for my farsight supplement to who am I to criticize anyone who buys this.

quantumcollider
11-04-2014, 12:39
I have no comment on the rules in the book, since I do not play AM/IG/MT. I bought it specifically for the fluff.

However, i found it a tedious read. Even the storm troopers and commisars, for all their fanaticism, are first and formost humans. Yet I feel the characterization is completely unrelateable. GW has done a better job dehumanizing scions and commisars than the Schola Progenium ever could.

Mauler
11-04-2014, 12:51
A nice review mate, pretty balanced. The options pricing is the same as the SM options because the modifiers applied are the same and that's what you're paying for. The discount comes in the pricing of the original model itself, the FNP, fist or sword still provide the same benefit but it's the non-Marine that's making it less effective and that's not the wargear's fault.

MagicHat
11-04-2014, 13:44
A nice review mate, pretty balanced. The options pricing is the same as the SM options because the modifiers applied are the same and that's what you're paying for. The discount comes in the pricing of the original model itself, the FNP, fist or sword still provide the same benefit but it's the non-Marine that's making it less effective and that's not the wargear's fault.

Yet GW realize that doesn't work themself. SS/TH Assault terminators doesn't cost 80 points, Honour Guard doesn't cost 65 points.

SM Captains always buy weapons, assault marine sergeants rarely does.
Tempestor with power weapon is 35, SM veteran sergeant with PW is 39

corps
11-04-2014, 13:57
Tonka Trunks that the names i was looking for ! thank you :). Shame for the sergeant to to be forced to use pistol

Mauler
11-04-2014, 14:06
Yet GW realize that doesn't work themself. SS/TH Assault terminators doesn't cost 80 points, Honour Guard doesn't cost 65 points.

SM Captains always buy weapons, assault marine sergeants rarely does.
Tempestor with power weapon is 35, SM veteran sergeant with PW is 39

Sounds like the issue is with the basic cost of Marines and Terminators rather than wargear lol

duffybear1988
11-04-2014, 15:00
The fluff is worse than the rules. It seems that after gassing women and children, eating babies and swearing undying allegiance to the throne, they then throw them onto the frontlines to be killed by every grot with a nailgun...

Why bother training and equipping them with the finest tools if they are just going to fill the same role as basic conscripts? Poor show GW, poor show.

A.T.
11-04-2014, 15:39
The discount comes in the pricing of the original model itself, the FNP, fist or sword still provide the same benefit but it's the non-Marine that's making it less effective and that's not the wargear's fault.Neither guard sergeants nor sororitas got cheaper when their power weapons jumped up to space marine price - there is no 'original model discount' in action here.

If you were generous you could suggest that the guard pay through the nose for inferior close combat capabilities in order to maintain the balance of the armies strengths and weaknesses - stopping players buying off their vulnerabilities so to speak.

The most likely reason behind the pricing though is that it's simply the path of least resistance - find weapon in chart, use price as indicated. Game balancing costs money.

Vaktathi
11-04-2014, 16:50
I really want to like the Militarum Temptestus, I really really do. I've been playing a Stormtrooper company army in some form or fashion since 4th edition. This is something I've wanted to see for a long time and I really do want to like this book.

But I just can't.

Everything about this release feels like a lame money grab attempt rather than a genuine attempt to create a new and unique army. The book is a grand total of what, 5 units? There's no traditional FoC and a heavy reliance on Apoc style Formations to give free abilities/special rules to units that otherwise couldn't hold their own weight, and it's apparent GW realized that but didn't want to actually fix the problem.

The new Scion kits are cool, and it's nice that ST's are cheaper, but they still don't feel up to par, like they've cut out the fat but not gotten into shape. For guys that are supposedly so fanatically dedicated to carrying out their orders, even at the cost of their lives, far and beyond what normal guardsmen would attempt (from GW's fluff blurbs at least), able to be relied upon to the extent that they serve as Inquisitorial escorts for Black Ships, they sure don't reflect that with Ld7 :shifty:, and, in effect, still relying on Ld bubbles and morale reinforcement the way any other IG squad does.

Also, despite being the elite of the elite, or "Shock Assault Troops without Peer" as the Tempestus book puts it, they're still...WS3 S3 A1 I3 :shifty:

Additionally, while AP3 is cool and all, S3 18" Rapid Fire didn't work last time around, and that's not changing too much this time around, the only saving grace being that a FRFSRF at least applies now. This seems to be a consistent issue with units sporting AP3 small arms, in that the AP3 is overvalued and the unit just cannot put out *enough* of it to make it work outside of the absolute most favorable of circumstances. Thousand Sons and Vespids have many of the same issues. Now, if one manages to get off FRFSRF and bonuses from the formations at the same time, these guys may put out a decent amount of hurt, but it requires far more coordination than most other armies to get that sort of performance out of them. I'd rather have seen them drop the AP3 and make the guns Assault 3 AP5 18" and Pinning or something like that.

The new Taurox looks awful and its tabletop utility is notably questionable. The fact that they can't take Chimeras within the book just really emphasizes how much of a lame cash-grab this book is. Having Valkyries but no Vendettas at all limits the Anti-tank of the list to either suicide melta squads or Taurox's (which generally won't win firefights against other tanks).

Ultimately this book feels like a couple of formations cut from the Apoc book and then given their own Codex, like something that someone deliberately went out of their way to ensure was awkward and hamfisted, and I will not be buying it.

EDIT: Upon further review and actually reading the fluff, this has to be one of the worst fluff jobs in 40k history. It's an atrocious read, like a really bad internet fanfic, and this XKCD (http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fiction_rule_of_thumb.png) comic illustrates the problem perfectly. This thing is truly awful, it's as bad as the Space Wolf codex in its own way. "Penitent class heat sink arrays"? Hallucinarium? Seriously?

Ironbone
11-04-2014, 17:23
Everything about this release feels like a lame money grab attempt
Just like basicly every non-true codex since "death form skies" :p ? And probably even longer ?

Inquisitor Shego
11-04-2014, 19:46
As I said before, I'm just doing my own thing.

HQ - Inquisitor
Elite - 1 x Assassin
Troop - Scions + Chimeras
Fast Attack - Sentinels
Heavy - 2 x Vendetta

I'm trying to build a black ops infiltration unit that does snatch and grab. Without infiltration that feels boned, and at 41.00 a valkyrie I'll be damned if I'm going Air Cav. The Taurox (a subliminal code for Tau Rocks! so GW push more Damocles sales .) looks like my grandmother's erotic home movies: unlikeable and overpriced even at 10p a go. What I will say is I adore how they've made the Imperium truly sick scum. We have Grey Knights impaling Sisters of Battle and nuking billions, and the Schola Progenium is abducting children to brain-wipe and torture for suicide missions. I as a Dark Eldar player, no longer feel like I'm the bad guy. The only thing is reading this fluff, I now don't believe characters like Gaunt or Cain could exist. The people in these books would put their ends in glue and glass and then ravage infants if ordered. Again this makes LD 7 absolutely stupid beyond compare; these warriors are nightmarish automata given flesh and rage.

Alas though, if GW wants to go down this dark path (akin to Mark Millar thinking it's edgy to put rape, abortion, and the C word into comics) with having children bricked into walls with their still living hands clawing through mortar as it sets, fair play. Just it doesn't feel as "fun" any more. On a side note, this is why Inquisitor Shegoa Iblis doesn't use Scions, but general psychotic mercenaries she can come across, and I don't have to touch this fluff with a barge pole.

The more I read it, the more I hate it. If anyone plays Exalted, this is The Infernals.

Theocracity
11-04-2014, 19:51
If anyone plays Exalted, this is The Infernals.

Sheesh, that is bad.

Edit: Come to think of it, I do apply the same editorial impulses towards both the 40K and Exalted settings. In both, I feel you have to ignore parts that don't suit you - though in my experience that's more of a problem in the WHITE WOLF! world of Exalted. And while bad 40K fluff just makes me go "Eh, that's lame; I'll just ignore it," bad Exalted fluff will make me go NOPE (http://i.imgur.com/GscrokR.gif).

Inquisitor Shego
11-04-2014, 20:10
Sheesh, that is bad.

Edit: Come to think of it, I do apply the same editorial impulses towards both the 40K and Exalted settings. In both, I feel you have to ignore parts that don't suit you - though in my experience that's more of a problem in the WHITE WOLF! world of Exalted. And while bad 40K fluff just makes me go "Eh, that's lame; I'll just ignore it," bad Exalted fluff will make me go NOPE (http://i.imgur.com/GscrokR.gif).

But the thing I respect about WW is they give you alternatives, compared to 40k stagnation. For example in orpheus, there were 4-5 different world ending events with themes for all of them. I could forgive GW if they released a hypothetical branch off if Abaddon won the Black Crusade, or a Hive Fleet was eating Fenris. Alas everything with 40K feels like GI Joe, with no side winning and every victory one of no consequence. But yeah, I bring up Infernals, because that book, like this one, actually made me feel somewhat dirty. I mean its no secret the Imperium kills innocents. An exterminatus incinerates the babies and elderly alike, but here we've got the spotlight hanging over it, and there doesn't seem to be much else to focus on in such a small book.

Did I like it? NOPE (http://media.giphy.com/media/149t2dI5M5nzvq/giphy.gif)

But then again, the anime Blood C once inspired me to do a Daemon Army for its horrifyingly beautiful and hyperbolic grotesque portrayal of demons in a civilian population

Theocracity
11-04-2014, 20:15
But the thing I respect about WW is they give you alternatives, compared to 40k stagnation. For example in orpheus, there were 4-5 different world ending events with themes for all of them. I could forgive GW if they released a hypothetical branch off if Abaddon won the Black Crusade, or a Hive Fleet was eating Fenris. Alas everything with 40K feels like GI Joe, with no side winning and every victory one of no consequence. But yeah, I bring up Infernals, because that book, like this one, actually made me feel somewhat dirty. I mean its no secret the Imperium kills innocents. An exterminatus incinerates the babies and elderly alike, but here we've got the spotlight hanging over it, and there doesn't seem to be much else to focus on in such a small book.

Did I like it? NOPE (http://media.giphy.com/media/149t2dI5M5nzvq/giphy.gif)

But then again, the anime Blood C once inspired me to do a Daemon Army for its horrifyingly beautiful and hyperbolic grotesque portrayal of demons in a civilian population

Well, that partially comes down to the purpose of the setting. Exalted is an RPG designed to let individuals explore epic stories, while in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

I don't think there'd be a problem with setting up a 40K campaign where crazy, world-changing stuff happens just like it would in a good Exalted campaign. But that's not been GW's bag for a while.

Inquisitor Shego
11-04-2014, 20:17
Well, that partially comes down to the purpose of the setting. Exalted is an RPG designed to let individuals explore epic stories, while in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

I don't think there'd be a problem with setting up a 40K campaign where crazy, world-changing stuff happens just like it would in a good Exalted campaign. But that's not been GW's bag for a while.

True, and again I can forgive it provided they don't lie to us that the fate of the galaxy is in our hands: Antioch, Storm of Chaos, Third Armageddon War, Ichar IV, 13th Black Crusade, Albion, etc

Theocracity
11-04-2014, 20:20
True, and again I can forgive it provided they don't lie to us that the fate of the galaxy is in our hands: Antioch, Storm of Chaos, Third Armageddon War, Ichar IV, 13th Black Crusade, Albion, etc

It seems like, for better or worse, GW agrees with you on that. :p

Iron_Lord
11-04-2014, 22:03
Hot-shots do not only does not benefit from Frf!Srf! order ( despite order beeing about lasguns, and beeing renamed hot shot lasguns form hellguns :shifty:),

Page 10 of White Dwarf Issue 10 (5th April) has the FrF! SrF! order card - it works with both lasguns and hot-shot lasguns.

Mini77
11-04-2014, 23:48
Page 10 of White Dwarf Issue 10 (5th April) has the FrF! SrF! order card - it works with both lasguns and hot-shot lasguns.

It does, though if you're using the Tempestus book you still can't use it - they don't get that order.

Vaktathi
12-04-2014, 01:33
Inquisitor Shego was right, this book is just plain awful to read. I love me some grimdark, but parts of this really just read like someone trying way too hard, with lots of violence and atrocity for its own sake rather than to illustrate the danger and darkness of the game universe. It's also written about as well as I would expect a 13 year old's bad internet fanfic.

Also, it ultimately, if they changed the pictures, the fluff could just as easily be about a Marine chapter, it's not particularly unique outside of the poor quality of the writing.


I'm really disappointed. I've wanted a Stormtrooper army for so long, and this book is just so bad. Even taking the army list out completely (which, in and of itself was bad), this book is *HARD* to read because it's just so bad. Not only does it really fail to grab ones attention, being largely "such discipline, so kill schoolmates, many execution, wow" or "zomg they flew in from nowhere, blew everything up, won the day, and left" like much of the odious Marine fluff, but there's just so much Faux-Latin spammed without any remorse or regard for appropriateness that it makes the whole thing difficult to get through.

Freman Bloodglaive
12-04-2014, 08:36
Grimdark is supposed to be so over the top that it's ridiculous, with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

If you feel horrified after reading something it's not grimdark.

Ironbone
12-04-2014, 10:48
Page 10 of White Dwarf Issue 10 (5th April) has the FrF! SrF! order card - it works with both lasguns and hot-shot lasguns.
Yeah, after ******* 5 years (almost) they did what should be done from the very begining :rolleyes:.


It does, though if you're using the Tempestus book you still can't use it - they don't get that order.
Indeed. But MT use IG orders when fielded as elite platton in Astra Militarum army.

Inquisitor Shego
12-04-2014, 10:59
Oh I concur, Freman. Look at the Orks with their football hooliganism, the Tyranids as a whole with their silly but terrifying concept, and the endless horrors of Imperial administration akin to Brazil / 1984 / Papers Please. Yet GW have always had a way with it, almost not to focus on the true horrors. Now that they're going into a great deal more open about kidnapped orphans getting their skulls pulverised by a drill abbot's hammer and spinal cords on display, I'm fine with it. We're taking the evolution from Rambo 3 to Rambo 4 (also called Rambo because Stallone lost count). I'm guessing though they went a tad too far in the desperation to include anything in this tome to fill pages. Its like they wanted the opening to Kurt Russel's Soldier and got that certain scene from City of God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP63-lN98g8)


But in for a penny, in for a pound. This dark vulgar concept just seems alien alongside a fear of sculpting slaaneshi daemonettes having their tits out and some 8 foot emos worrying about the grammar of the Index Astartes when trying to stop Necrons camping their base.

Light of the Emperor
12-04-2014, 12:49
The codex seems to repeat fluff in several places. I swear that I read about Schola training several times.

In any case, the WD ruleset plus a box or two of the Scions makes for a great kill team. The viability of various units opens up at kill team level. Plus, I find myself enjoying those games much more than a full battle.

Spider-pope
12-04-2014, 15:27
Had a flick through my friends copy. I quite like the pages devoted to different Scion regiments, certainly plenty of inspiration for creating your own forces.



What I will say is I adore how they've made the Imperium truly sick scum. We have Grey Knights impaling Sisters of Battle and nuking billions, and the Schola Progenium is abducting children to brain-wipe and torture for suicide missions. I as a Dark Eldar player, no longer feel like I'm the bad guy. The only thing is reading this fluff, I now don't believe characters like Gaunt or Cain could exist. The people in these books would put their ends in glue and glass and then ravage infants if ordered. Again this makes LD 7 absolutely stupid beyond compare; these warriors are nightmarish automata given flesh and rage.


It's a big galaxy, with multiple Schola Progeniums. And there are "good" (while heroic, are Gaunt and Cain really good? They still shoot their own troops when needed after all) people, even in the worst of regimes.

Sgt John Keel
12-04-2014, 16:03
It's a big galaxy, with multiple Schola Progeniums. And there are "good" (while heroic, are Gaunt and Cain really good? They still shoot their own troops when needed after all) people, even in the worst of regimes.

Now, I haven't read the Gaunt books, but when he had rules he didn't have Summary Execution. (Neither does Yarrick, FWIW. At least not in the old codices.)

Brother Vaneb
12-04-2014, 16:03
I miss my second edition Stormtroopers.

Brother Vaneb
12-04-2014, 16:11
I miss my second edition Stormtroopers.

Spider-pope
12-04-2014, 17:34
Now, I haven't read the Gaunt books, but when he had rules he didn't have Summary Execution. (Neither does Yarrick, FWIW. At least not in the old codices.)

He may not have the rule, but in the books he certainly has executed troopers. He doesn't do it on a whim like most Commissars, but neither does he shirk from his duties when it's necessary.

Inquisitor Shego
12-04-2014, 17:47
I know it's a big universe, Spider-Pope. I sure wouldn't like to walk across it. I often use the Big Universe line when building my own weird and wonderful fluff as not to be pegged in by the GW machine, but this particular book does little to convince me Gaunt could exist if he has come from one of these places. And he has come from one of these places. The one Gaunt comes from has a story where he meets another kid who goes on to become a commissar, and he's telling the story of how his dad was a space marine, yadda yadda, and it's all a fib and childish imagination of course but, that background of Gaunt's is obsolete. This book does not have any childish hope or optimism. It has brain washed, drugged zombie children endlessly hammered into nothingness but zealot zombies. For Gaunt to be Gaunt, he had to undo this. Of course, it's a big universe. I'm sure there's a nice place out there that trains more human commissars too. It just doesn't exist in the thing I paid 30 for. Codex Militarium Dontsueus Copywritus Protectum.

Spider-pope
12-04-2014, 18:16
I know it's a big universe, Spider-Pope. I sure wouldn't like to walk across it. I often use the Big Universe line when building my own weird and wonderful fluff as not to be pegged in by the GW machine, but this particular book does little to convince me Gaunt could exist if he has come from one of these places. And he has come from one of these places. The one Gaunt comes from has a story where he meets another kid who goes on to become a commissar, and he's telling the story of how his dad was a space marine, yadda yadda, and it's all a fib and childish imagination of course but, that background of Gaunt's is obsolete. This book does not have any childish hope or optimism. It has brain washed, drugged zombie children endlessly hammered into nothingness but zealot zombies. For Gaunt to be Gaunt, he had to undo this. Of course, it's a big universe. I'm sure there's a nice place out there that trains more human commissars too. It just doesn't exist in the thing I paid 30 for. Codex Militarium Dontsueus Copywritus Protectum.

Like i said it's a big galaxy with multiple Scholas. Gaunt just got lucky being sent to one that didn't include the Brainwashed Psychopathy 101 module in it's curriculum. It's only as obsolete as you want it to be. But i will concede the point for now, since i haven't read the fluff in the Codex thoroughly yet.

Inquisitor Shego
12-04-2014, 18:25
Like i said it's a big galaxy with multiple Scholas. Gaunt just got lucky being sent to one that didn't include the Brainwashed Psychopathy 101 module in it's curriculum. It's only as obsolete as you want it to be. But i will concede the point for now, since i haven't read the fluff in the Codex thoroughly yet.

And if you came up to me and said your commissar was from that place without Brainwashed Psychopathy 101 I would nod, and accept it. You paid your money for your model. It is whatever you want me to be, and I encourage everyone to be as diverse as possible.

Voss
12-04-2014, 18:40
I know it's a big universe, Spider-Pope. I sure wouldn't like to walk across it. I often use the Big Universe line when building my own weird and wonderful fluff as not to be pegged in by the GW machine, but this particular book does little to convince me Gaunt could exist if he has come from one of these places. And he has come from one of these places. The one Gaunt comes from has a story where he meets another kid who goes on to become a commissar, and he's telling the story of how his dad was a space marine, yadda yadda, and it's all a fib and childish imagination of course but, that background of Gaunt's is obsolete.
It was honestly an aberration at the time Abnett wrote it. As I recall people were complaining at the time, because it was part of GW easing up on the grimdark, and trying to ease in a very out of place heroic vibe that was very jarring with the dystopian and nihilistic background. His mercy, command rank and open mind are there for ease of writing, not for compliance with the setting.

Inquisitor Shego
12-04-2014, 20:44
It was honestly an aberration at the time Abnett wrote it. As I recall people were complaining at the time, because it was part of GW easing up on the grimdark, and trying to ease in a very out of place heroic vibe that was very jarring with the dystopian and nihilistic background. His mercy, command rank and open mind are there for ease of writing, not for compliance with the setting.

Suits me fine. I can't stand Abnett novels

*Mako voice* But that is another tale...

Freman Bloodglaive
13-04-2014, 06:18
Oh I concur, Freman. Look at the Orks with their football hooliganism, the Tyranids as a whole with their silly but terrifying concept, and the endless horrors of Imperial administration akin to Brazil / 1984 / Papers Please. Yet GW have always had a way with it, almost not to focus on the true horrors. Now that they're going into a great deal more open about kidnapped orphans getting their skulls pulverised by a drill abbot's hammer and spinal cords on display, I'm fine with it. We're taking the evolution from Rambo 3 to Rambo 4 (also called Rambo because Stallone lost count). I'm guessing though they went a tad too far in the desperation to include anything in this tome to fill pages. Its like they wanted the opening to Kurt Russel's Soldier and got that certain scene from City of God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP63-lN98g8)


But in for a penny, in for a pound. This dark vulgar concept just seems alien alongside a fear of sculpting slaaneshi daemonettes having their tits out and some 8 foot emos worrying about the grammar of the Index Astartes when trying to stop Necrons camping their base.

Apparently there's a new season of Red Dwarf coming out.

Darnok
13-04-2014, 07:09
Inquisitor Shego was right, this book is just plain awful to read. I love me some grimdark, but parts of this really just read like someone trying way too hard, with lots of violence and atrocity for its own sake rather than to illustrate the danger and darkness of the game universe. It's also written about as well as I would expect a 13 year old's bad internet fanfic.

Like in Codex: Grey Knights? Or worse?

All of this makes me way too pessimistic for the upcoming Codex: Orks and its supplement(s)... :(

Baaltor
13-04-2014, 07:53
[Medics] are finaly 15 pts upgrade. For ****** sake, guard players been waiting so long to have usable, not overpriced medic upgrade. It's still bit lame that it's the same price that SM/DA pay for their medics, despite marines having T4, and FnP beeing a lot better rule on them, but still, I'm happy to have ability to have FnP without overpaying so damm much.

Weapons pricing - meele ones to be clear. Why on earth would anyone who played this game think that guard Str 3 power weapon ( at least it's power weapon, not just power sword :rolleyes: ) is worth 15 pts ? And power fist worth 25 ?...

...Same price as SM one, despite SM beeing a lot better ?

Emphasis my own.


Yeah, but the SM cost a lot more, because they're better. The upgrades don't need to cost more, because then they're paying twice for something they bought once. The Guard have more bodies to benefit from FNP, so that's an advantage in their favour, anyways. Is a power weapon worth 15 points? I don't think so, even on a marine; but they're not unusable.




...GW tend to terribly overvaluse almost everthing in the game with AP3, turning so thinked marine-killers into uselessness because of cost, so does storm troopers payed so too much for their weapon, despite it beeing more hindrence than benefit. Almost all benefits of having Ap3 are wasted because of crap Str. Marines are wounded on 5+. Bikes



Yep! Oh god yep. I think it's less GW's fault for poor balance, and more GW's fault for using the AP system; which I believe cannot be balanced.

Vaktathi
13-04-2014, 09:03
Like in Codex: Grey Knights? Or worse?

All of this makes me way too pessimistic for the upcoming Codex: Orks and its supplement(s)... :(

Yeah, between teachers at the Schola killing unruly students with warhammers and Commissar students being given orders to kill their best trained, most capable, most reliable comrades to prove they're "hardcore", and the ridiculous spamming of the Faux-Latin in place of almost every proper noun, making it sound like a Harry Potter book, I have to say it's pretty damn bad. Easily Grey Knights bad.

And the worst part? Even you ignored all of the just bad storytelling and bad wiring mechanics, it's ultimately a rather lame copy/paste of generic marine fluff. Replace "Scions" for "Ultramarines" in most of it, aside from the specific naming of the Schola stuff, nobody would really ever tell it was originally intended to be about an IG unit.

Inquisitor Shego
13-04-2014, 16:53
Apparently there's a new season of Red Dwarf coming out.

awesome!!!!!! The last season was a return to form

Ironbone
13-04-2014, 16:56
God dammit, so it looks that so far I read all the good parts of their fluff :cries:.

Iron_Lord
13-04-2014, 17:00
He may not have the rule, but in the books he certainly has executed troopers. He doesn't do it on a whim like most Commissars, but neither does he shirk from his duties when it's necessary.

One of the more quotable Gaunt scenes in fact:

"I am Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt. I am known as a fair man, unless I am pushed. You have just pushed me."

Gropius
13-04-2014, 18:17
Had a look at the codex:

Background:

As already stated it is borig while over the top and very repetitive. Also it doesn't provide any insight into the actual organisation and hierarchy of the tempestus. What is the composition of a regiment? How are the Tempestor primes the highest officers when they are just platoon commanders? There is just no cohesive thought behind it at all.

Rules:

- Looks like you can actually take more scions with the IG codex than with this one. IG can have also more commissars.
- There should be the option for a senior officer.
- Equipment list is a joke. Best equipped soldiers of the imperium can't even have ward saves on their officers. No heirlooms of Conquest either.
- IG warlord traits are so much better it is not even funny.
- Pretty much the same with orders. About half of them seem kinda redundant. Fleet/crusader, twin-linked/preferred enemy, rending/sniper and pinning. In Addition you can attempt two orders at most per turn and only if you don't take commissars.
- And then there is this huge disconnect between background and rules. Almost Marine like mental conditioning and unwavering stubbornes and loyalty apparently equals the supposedly undisciplined chaff of the Imperial Guard if you look at the leadership stat, and commissars are so good at leading and commanding that they can issue exactly zero orders.

Another good idea for a small codex brought down by an abysmal execution.

nosebiter
13-04-2014, 18:25
Had a look at the codex:

Background:

As already stated it is borig while over the top and very repetitive. Also it doesn't provide any insight into the actual organisation and hierarchy of the tempestus. What is the composition of a regiment? How are the Tempestor primes the highest officers when they are just platoon commanders? There is just no cohesive thought behind it at all.

Rules:

- Looks like you can actually take more scions with the IG codex than with this one. IG can have also more commissars.
- There should be the option for a senior officer.
- Equipment list is a joke. Best equipped soldiers of the imperium can't even have ward saves on their officers. No heirlooms of Conquest either.
- IG warlord traits are so much better it is not even funny.
- Pretty much the same with orders. About half of them seem kinda redundant. Fleet/crusader, twin-linked/preferred enemy, rending/sniper and pinning. In Addition you can attempt two orders at most per turn and only if you don't take commissars.
- And then there is this huge disconnect between background and rules. Almost Marine like mental conditioning and unwavering stubbornes and loyalty apparently equals the supposedly undisciplined chaff of the Imperial Guard if you look at the leadership stat, and commissars are so good at leading and commanding that they can issue exactly zero orders.

Another good idea for a small codex brought down by an abysmal execution.

And at full codex price.

Niiiiice ;-)

Lord Cook
13-04-2014, 21:23
It was honestly an aberration at the time Abnett wrote it. As I recall people were complaining at the time, because it was part of GW easing up on the grimdark, and trying to ease in a very out of place heroic vibe that was very jarring with the dystopian and nihilistic background. His mercy, command rank and open mind are there for ease of writing, not for compliance with the setting.

It was an aberration, but people liked it because it actually worked. Unlike so much of the 40k fluff, which is so ludicrously stupid on so many simultaneous levels, reading the Black Library novels (like Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphus Cain) you actually start to be able to suspend your disbelief and get into it. I can believe that the Imperium that exists in those books is real. Inefficient, yes. Monstrous, yes. Often incompetent, yes. But it's at least sane enough that the universe functions.

"Grimdark" as a description / genre is increasingly being used as just another way of saying "incredibly badly written, braindead, and patronising to the reader's intelligence, but we don't care".




Suits me fine. I can't stand Abnett novels

I wouldn't have said he was a great writer, but he's decent, and in a fictional setting dominated by writers who seem to think every reader is about 12 years old it's nice to read something slightly different. Also, he's most famous for Gaunt's Ghosts, which is probably his least impressive 40k work. The various Inquisition series are generally better.

Ironbone
14-04-2014, 09:38
And at full codex price.

Niiiiice ;-)
Greedy Workshop, what else to expect :p ?


"Grimdark" as a description / genre is increasingly being used as just another way of saying "incredibly badly written, braindead, and patronising to the reader's intelligence, but we don't care".
Well, at it's core, "grimdark" is just certain concept of world building. It's skill in use of that concept determines if fiction is good or bad, not useing this of other idea when writeing. Fallout is very grimdark, and few will ever deny it isn't one of most compeling games ever made.

Inquisitor Shego
14-04-2014, 16:30
I wouldn't have said he was a great writer, but he's decent, and in a fictional setting dominated by writers who seem to think every reader is about 12 years old it's nice to read something slightly different. Also, he's most famous for Gaunt's Ghosts, which is probably his least impressive 40k work. The various Inquisition series are generally better.

RANT MODE

The problem I have with Dan Abnett is he writes Mary Sue fanfics. You've got Sharpe's Rifles, I mean Gaunt's Ghosts, who cannot be seen by the naked eye and one shot chaos space marines with blow pipes, and lasguns and use ammo cells to annihilate dreadnoughts. They're protected by more plot armour than batman. I actually burned my copy of His Last Command in disgust. From the bit at the start where they escape prison by being so macho, to the bit where they can't be detected in the Leviathan for being too sneaky, it was a case of "My D&D half elf, half human, half dragon is a prettyful intellagant character who has a magical unicorn and is liked by all and can do anything because she is special."

Then the Ravenor/Eisenhorn books. **** that ****. Abnett has this trend of giving you the bait and switch like a loaded shotgun to the face. Beaquin died *next chapter* but didn't. The first Heresy novel: "you were there when Horus killed the Emperor" oh jesus christ spare me. Oh he does the same with the blonde rememberancer who grows up to become the living saint of awesomeness. The Luna Wolf becomes a demon, charges her, it says she dies. Turn the page. ALIVE. In the words of Mr Slave, Jazzzzuzzzz Chrasss.

Which brings me onto something else I loathe, aside from the fact he had an obsession with painting everything ochre. He has a chubby for pretty female characters. I forget if it was Ravenor book 1 or 2, but the opening is this chaos dude at a dig site, and one of his underlings is described as an attractive blonde. She's a mole working for the inquisition, because Dan's having fantasies about that female blonde. A few pages later, oh maaah gawwwd, ah waz rat.

Ignoring the whole made up language of un-words that about 10 people in the Imperium know about, and they all happen to be on the same planet. Ignoring the whole naff about nulls stopping psychic powers cept when it suits his plot (so I'm told. I also burned the ravenor books after almost drowning in BS).

He writes a nice sentence. He writes a naff book. These are some of my many gripes about Dan Fishnets

Vaktathi
14-04-2014, 16:34
While I made it through the first 8 or 9 Gaunts Ghosts books, Abnett did write the one 40k book I never could finish reading, Brothers of the Snake. It was so much of a Marine ************ I just couldn't finish it :p

Lord Cook
14-04-2014, 17:14
Well, at it's core, "grimdark" is just certain concept of world building. It's skill in use of that concept determines if fiction is good or bad, not useing this of other idea when writeing. Fallout is very grimdark, and few will ever deny it isn't one of most compeling games ever made.

I tend to agree with you, but I also said 'increasingly'. Fallout is a past example of how to do it much better than it is currently being done (in my view). :)

Ok, here we go. I'll point out that the most complimentary word I used for Dan Abnett was 'decent', and even then said that Gaunt's Ghosts was some of his least impressive work (although I guess the Horus Heresy stuff would take that crown if I actually read it).


The problem I have with Dan Abnett is he writes Mary Sue fanfics.

Sure. But in comparison to almost the entire library of Space Marine-focussed novels? Hardly. Gaunt's Ghosts sees more long-term characters being killed and more breathless Guard incompetence than you typically see elsewhere. Throughout the Inquisition books the cast of major characters aren't any more powerful or indestructible than you would see in any typical action novel. I've read too many sickeningly fanboy-ish Space Marine novels to think that anything in the Guard-focussed books is a problem by comparison.


You've got Sharpe's Rifles, I mean Gaunt's Ghosts, who cannot be seen by the naked eye and one shot chaos space marines with blow pipes, and lasguns and use ammo cells to annihilate dreadnoughts. They're protected by more plot armour than batman.

Come on. Let's stick to fair criticisms.

1) A very badly damaged Dreadnought is hit by the equivalent of an IED, which rips off some armour plating and otherwise does nothing. The wounded Dreadnought is then killed by the incredibly lethal native plantlife whose spines can now reach the pilot through the gap in the armour.

2) A Chaos Space Marine, who isn't even wearing his ******* helmet, gets hit in the face by multiple incredibly toxic darts in the middle of a wilderness area rough enough to represent Catachan, and just for good measure, also gets some magnetically-accelerated crossbow bolts to the face as well. And he still takes a long while to go down.

There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to criticise the books without making up new ones.


Abnett has this trend of giving you the bait and switch like a loaded shotgun to the face. Beaquin died *next chapter* but didn't.

And who doesn't in short pulp action novels? That's the bread and butter of action. Even outside of the sci-fi genre as a whole. This **** happens all the time.


The first Heresy novel: "you were there when Horus killed the Emperor" oh jesus christ spare me. Oh he does the same with the blonde rememberancer who grows up to become the living saint of awesomeness. The Luna Wolf becomes a demon, charges her, it says she dies. Turn the page. ALIVE. In the words of Mr Slave, Jazzzzuzzzz Chrasss.

I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels and have no intention of doing so. Really doesn't interest me. I'm sure you're right. I'd be deeply skeptical of any series written by multiple authors anyway.


pretty female characters.

Most of his male characters are pretty good looking too. Same as happens in most books and most films.

Theocracity
14-04-2014, 17:30
Regardless of what can be said about the plausibility of certain events or his use of pulp-action cliches, Abnett's world building and willingness to push the creative boundaries of 40K give his work very high marks in my book (though I haven't read all of it, and could see if certain examples aren't as compelling as others).

Ironbone
14-04-2014, 18:04
I tend to agree with you, but I also said 'increasingly'. Fallout is a past example of how to do it much better than it is currently being done (in my view). :)
And I'm absoulety agree with that :). I just don't like stuffing all kinds of culture that share trait of beeing grimdark into one bag. They share similarities, but are much diffrent as well. There is good grimdark ( Fallout, Plancescape Torment ), so there have to bad as well, like some parts of warhammer lore are. Useing certain idea on it's own never should determine love/hate attitude before actual reading ;).


Let's stick to fair criticisms.
We are in internetz. Doing fair criticism here is kind of heroic :p.

Inquisitor Shego
14-04-2014, 18:11
So Cook what you're saying is he sticks to conventions common in most shlock? Yeah, that's pretty much what I hate. Again I go to the first book where a guardsman decapitated a death guard marine by putting his lasgun on maximum setting. Apparently all lasguns are AP3. The blowgun thing was pure crap, and the taking out the dreadnought with the IED as you put it was a beautiful compilation of Deus Ex Machina. The blow pipe one also astounds me not by how the toxins so rapidly overcome the space marine resistance to toxins but the accuracy of application and how pathetically nerfed it makes Chaos Space Marines appear again. I'd imagine when a Chaos Marine appears before Imperial Guard it should be like the tank appearing in Left 4 Dead, complete with dramatic music.

But you mention who doesn't? How it's in most books and films. Without sounding like a hipster, if they're as guilty as Dan Abnett, they suck too. He writes puerile tosh. Maybe his none-GW stuff is good. I'll buy that perhaps. Maybe the editors reign him in. I mean at one point doesn't he mention Nulls are mega rare, then in the next one, Beaquin's got a school of them? it all went downhill at Necropolis when the 1st and Only loaded up on pretty beautiful sniper sues.

Please note you only get a half coherent argument from me as I'm not turning off Rant Mode

hobojebus
14-04-2014, 18:14
Abnett rant eh, okay count me in!

I as is well know am a space wolves fan which is why the prospero book was a massive kick in the nuts, we had one single chapter in our book compared to a solid third of the thousand sons book being dedicated to that battle.

When the thousands sons book gives you more detail than the book named after the whole event you have failed badly.

We didn't get to follow a space wolf instead we got a self insertion char who's so important he gets turned into a proto space marine despite the fact THAT TECHNOLOGY EXISTS NO WHERE!!!!

If you could rework older humans into near space marines why the fak did kor phaeron go through all that cybernetic enhancement and have to wear power armour under his terminator armour?

Why didn't the lion have his best friend luther properly enhanced to increase his chance of survival on the battlefeilds?

He is a hack writer and his flaws are glaring for any non fanboy to see:
- Pretty girls don't die
- He invents tech that does not fir the setting
- The laws of the imperium do not apply to his guys like when the ghosts use alien weapons against chaos but no inquisition turn up to have them either mind wiped or killed.
- His guys will always win no matter the odds, 6 guardsmen against 5 marines will not win with zero casualties etc

It galls me that space wolves get one book in the HH series and we got that gak for brains to write it.

Theocracity
14-04-2014, 18:17
Again I go to the first book where a guardsman decapitated a death guard marine by putting his lasgun on maximum setting. Apparently all lasguns are AP3.

That's a great example of why I do like Abnett - his vision of the 40K galaxy isn't beholden to a game system where events happen neatly based on the rules. He's constantly introducing weird, interesting stuff outside the boundaries of the tabletop game, so that it feels like a (pulpy sci-fi action) world.

Inquisitor Shego
14-04-2014, 18:18
- He invents tech that does not fir the setting

End Rant

Clearly you are a true Space Wolf. Back on topic though, I do not rate this book. Anyone know how Scions work in regular guard? Are they an elite slot? I hear they can get Chimeras.


That's a great example of why I do like Abnett - his vision of the 40K galaxy isn't beholden to a game system where events happen neatly based on the rules. He's constantly introducing weird, interesting stuff outside the boundaries of the tabletop game, so that it feels like a (pulpy sci-fi action) world.

And I feel this is when it suits him and his mary sues, at the cost of devaluing the antagonists... whilst ripping off Sharpe

EDIT - In fairness theocracity I do agree he paints a beautiful worldscape. His planets and political systems are always a thrill to read

Vaktathi
14-04-2014, 18:22
In a basic IG army, Scions are an elites unit, they can get Chimeras, and you can take them like platoons, with IIRC 1-3 Scions squads and 1 Scion HQ squad per elites slot.

Inquisitor Shego
14-04-2014, 18:24
In a basic IG army, Scions are an elites unit, they can get Chimeras, and you can take them like platoons, with IIRC 1-3 Scions squads and 1 Scion HQ squad per elites slot.

Do you get hardened veterans with carapace armour in the same book? I'm worried with growing horror the guard dex might be better for making a storm trooper army than the storm trooper dex

Theocracity
14-04-2014, 18:25
End Rant

Clearly you are a true Space Wolf. Back on topic though, I do not rate this book. Anyone know how Scions work in regular guard? Are they an elite slot? I hear they can get Chimeras.



And I feel this is when it suits him and his mary sues, at the cost of devaluing the antagonists... whilst ripping off Sharpe

So basically, he's a fanboy who wants his own characters to win, and he proves this by triumphing over characters that you're a fanboy of and want to win? ;)

Just teasing. In general I'm less concerned with the specific plausibility of the events in an Abnett book and more about the world, atmosphere and whether it's fun or not. I get that that's different for different people though.

As a sidenote, I really liked Prospero Burns and really approved of its stylistic choices.

Vaktathi
14-04-2014, 18:29
Do you get hardened veterans with carapace armour in the same book? I'm worried with growing horror the guard dex might be better for making a storm trooper army than the storm trooper dexYup, with vets 10pts cheaper than they were (don't come with kraks base, have to buy them now) and get Carapace for 15pts for the squad.



As a sidenote, I really liked Prospero Burns and really approved of its stylistic choices.

This book just kicked my dislike of SW's from "high" to "extreme" :p

Inquisitor Shego
14-04-2014, 18:35
So basically, he's a fanboy who wants his own characters to win, and he proves this by triumphing over characters that you're a fanboy of and want to win? ;)
.

Half right. I didn't want Chaos to win in Storm of Iron (they did), or Dead Sky Black Sun (they didn't). I only become attatched to a character if I feel they're threatened, which is why I feel the Fast and Furious series is one of the greatest comedies ever. I swear it's Abnett's desire to be taken seriously that makes me hysterical when he writes such childish nonsense. Of course this is my very colourful opinion. Others who like the book are free to do what they want. I actually sort of enjoyed the Gaunt books up to Necropolis. By this point I began to figure out his tropes. I prefer a book like Dead Men Walking. A nice gritty book.


Yup, with vets 10pts cheaper than they were (don't come with kraks base, have to buy them now) and get Carapace for 15pts for the squad.

Think I know what I'll be using my 60 Kasrkin as then

hobojebus
14-04-2014, 18:43
End Rant

Clearly you are a true Space Wolf. Back on topic though, I do not rate this book. Anyone know how Scions work in regular guard? Are they an elite slot? I hear they can get Chimeras.



And I feel this is when it suits him and his mary sues, at the cost of devaluing the antagonists... whilst ripping off Sharpe

EDIT - In fairness theocracity I do agree he paints a beautiful worldscape. His planets and political systems are always a thrill to read

You try hitting the right key when the wulfen has you in its fierce grip.

Vaktathi
14-04-2014, 18:47
I prefer a book like Dead Men Walking. A nice gritty book. This is seriously one of the best 40k books out there, I obliterated it in like one sitting.




Think I know what I'll be using my 60 Kasrkin as thenThat's exactly what I'm planning for mine :)

Lord Cook
14-04-2014, 20:15
So Cook what you're saying is he sticks to conventions common in most shlock? Yeah, that's pretty much what I hate.

But that makes no sense. I don't like trance music but I wouldn't say one particular trance musician is therefore a bad musician. You're reading a pulp action novel. If you don't like the style of pulp action novels, by all means criticise the genre. But criticising one particular author (and not the worst one by a long way!) is not rational.


Again I go to the first book where a guardsman decapitated a death guard marine by putting his lasgun on maximum setting. Apparently all lasguns are AP3.

He was shot in the vision slit wasn't he? Why shouldn't that kill a Space Marine? It's even established canon that most of a lasgun's power clip can be expended in one or two very powerful shots. Again, your argument isn't rational. If a Space Marine cannot be killed by a guardsmen in that manner, who's just seen a ton of his comrades slaughtered, then how could they be killed ever?


The blowgun thing was pure crap, and the taking out the dreadnought with the IED as you put it was a beautiful compilation of Deus Ex Machina.

Oh come on. Half of all good guy victories in the history of storytelling are achieved by some sort of clever trick. David beat Goliath with a slingshot to the eye right? You're being prejudiced against one author for doing stuff I could find in most of the books in an entire bookstore!


The blow pipe one also astounds me not by how the toxins so rapidly overcome the space marine resistance to toxins but the accuracy of application and how pathetically nerfed it makes Chaos Space Marines appear again. I'd imagine when a Chaos Marine appears before Imperial Guard it should be like the tank appearing in Left 4 Dead, complete with dramatic music.

Agreed, I think it should be like that. And Space Marines are supposed to have very good resistance to toxins. Can't remember a gland that makes them immune to crossbow bolts in the face though...


He is a hack writer and his flaws are glaring for any non fanboy to see

Lol, so me defending one author, that you are both absolutely vilifying for being terrible at his job, just for following the same or similar conventions to most of the storytelling world, makes me a fanboy? Or anyone else disagreeing with the rant-against-Abnett? You realise the problem here right?


Pretty girls don't die

Again, how large a proportion of all stories ever does this apply to?


He invents tech that does not fit the setting

Such as?


The laws of the imperium do not apply to his guys like when the ghosts use alien weapons against chaos but no inquisition turn up to have them either mind wiped or killed.

I've genuinely forgotten about this one, apologies. What happens?

Worth noting they almost get executed by the Inquisition and Commissariat simply for having fought a resistance campaign on a recently-Chaos-conquered world and not actually died.


His guys will always win no matter the odds, 6 guardsmen against 5 marines will not win with zero casualties etc

Sure, that seemed ridiculous. But dozens of people fighting with those guardsmen do die. The Marines are massacring tons of them.

Inquisitor Shego
14-04-2014, 20:58
*puts his boxing mouth guard in*


But that makes no sense. I don't like trance music but I wouldn't say one particular trance musician is therefore a bad musician. You're reading a pulp action novel. If you don't like the style of pulp action novels, by all means criticise the genre. But criticising one particular author (and not the worst one by a long way!) is not rational.

Yet I still do not like Abnett. I do not like the way he makes this mary sue garbage. I do not like his trivial tricks and self idolisation. His portrayal of antagonists are pretty lacklustre, and his work is hack. You can say other authors do it worse, but I'm not talking about them. If you wish to, go ahead, but I'm talking about Abnett.


Agreed, I think it should be like that. And Space Marines are supposed to have very good resistance to toxins. Can't remember a gland that makes them immune to crossbow bolts in the face though...

But they are agile slaughter houses of death and destruction. Ferocious monsters of genocide and carnage. His portrayal in my eyes is one of them being a stepladder, a pedestal for the Ghosts to be simply propped atop.


Oh come on. Half of all good guy victories in the history of storytelling are achieved by some sort of clever trick. David beat Goliath with a slingshot to the eye right? You're being prejudiced against one author for doing stuff I could find in most of the books in an entire bookstore!

No, if I was being prejudice, I'd be giving other cliches a pass. For one, this is a small building block to my loathing of Abnett. Secondly, I don't think it was done well. It felt more like that scene in Fast 5 where Vin Diesel and Paul Walker need to escape, so they escape... the script writer and director decided to focus as little as possible.


He was shot in the vision slit wasn't he? Why shouldn't that kill a Space Marine? It's even established canon that most of a lasgun's power clip can be expended in one or two very powerful shots. Again, your argument isn't rational. If a Space Marine cannot be killed by a guardsmen in that manner, who's just seen a ton of his comrades slaughtered, then how could they be killed ever?

Vision Slit? Damn good/lucky shot. No, that's all fine. Totally cool. Now in the 40k universe when Chaos Space Marines attack, everyone just flip your las cells to full power. Here lies my problem. I've never heard of it happening before, or after since. It was just something Dan stuck in because he wanted it to happen, much akin to his world where they had anti-grav tech coming out their backsides, despite skimmer tech being rare as rocking horse poop. Just like when the telekenetic in Ravenor Returns just happens to come across the un-word on the millions to one chance, and remember it to escape later on. Maybe he writes himself into corners and punches drunkenly out of them, or maybe he has no care for dramatic tension.

If you're saying this is just action pulp and shouldn't be taken seriously, fair enough. I'm too mature or too elevated for the target audience. Doesn't make me smarter than them. Maybe I'm choosing not to dumb myself down, or maybe I'm too high and mighty, or maybe I just don't get it. All the same, I find the books **** and warped for Dan's ego and Mary Sues and the 40k template is pushed aside when it suits in jarring fashions.

hobojebus
15-04-2014, 00:43
Again, how large a proportion of all stories ever does this apply to?

Benequin, tonna grid, whatever the name of the living saint chick is in the HH there are more but they are the main offenders, he'll crud takes a dive in a flying transport and only loses a little finger.


Such as?[/QUOTE]

Space wolves having the ability to skin someone reengineer it then put it back on a person making him nearly a space marine, organic flowers, a whole world where everyone has super rare suspensor technology, if I went back through his books I could find more but that means punishing myself by reading Dan abnett.


I've genuinely forgotten about this one, apologies. What happens?

Worth noting they almost get executed by the Inquisition and Commissariat simply for having fought a resistance campaign on a recently-Chaos-conquered world and not actually died.

His last command they are under siege and the ghosts use unusual weapons, any other regiment would get inquisition attention just for seeing it, death for using it but the ghosts have plot immunity.

[QUOTE]Sure, that seemed ridiculous. But dozens of people fighting with those guardsmen do die. The Marines are massacring tons of them.

Who cares if the village put there to get slaughtered got slaughtered, marines have superior training, superior armour and superior weapons which all enhances much faster reaction speeds, in fluff a marine will see you predict your method of attack and then kill you in under a second, humans in small numbers are zero threat at close range because the marine is a genetically engineered super man.

It's poorly written tripe and far far from the only example.

Fangschrecken
15-04-2014, 02:45
Can anyone explain to me why stormtroopers were nerfed? Why did we lose our pistols and ccw? Most of our assault power is gone for no real reason. I can't see that being worth the points drop we got. Two points cheaper, but keeping the pistol and ccw would have been perfect.

The finest unaugmented humans in the galaxy should be able to draw knives and go all Sardaukar on some xenos.

Hawkkf
15-04-2014, 03:01
Can anyone explain to me why stormtroopers were nerfed? Why did we lose our pistols and ccw? Most of our assault power is gone for no real reason. I can't see that being worth the points drop we got. Two points cheaper, but keeping the pistol and ccw would have been perfect.

The finest unaugmented humans in the galaxy should be able to draw knives and go all Sardaukar on some xenos.

My guess is they took out the pistols as they didn't bother to model them on the new scions. Also the design team seems to feel that you need to pay full price for all of your gear no matter how situational. It wouldn't surprise me if taking them away is how they justified the point drop while move through cover compensated for the loss of special operations. As it stands they value hot shot lasguns and ds as 3 points per model as compared to equivalent veterans, so them considering the lack of a pistol saving 2 points seems likely.

Vaktathi
15-04-2014, 03:10
Can anyone explain to me why stormtroopers were nerfed? Why did we lose our pistols and ccw? Most of our assault power is gone for no real reason. I can't see that being worth the points drop we got. Two points cheaper, but keeping the pistol and ccw would have been perfect.

The finest unaugmented humans in the galaxy should be able to draw knives and go all Sardaukar on some xenos.Primarily it looks like they wanted to cut stuff to justify a lower cost, but ultimately the same problem remains, they've got guardsmen statlines with guardsmen strength guns sporting shorter ranges, and reliant entirely on finding some way to make that AP3 work largely through Deep Strike and the Militarum Temptestus formations that give twin linked when disembarking.

The patient lost weight but still isn't in shape, essentially.

I don't know why GW insisted on keeping the S3 AP3 Rapid Fire 18" guns and basic guardsmen statline, but they did, and put a whole lot of effort into various crutches to try and mitigate that instead of just addressing the core issue. I don't expect we'll really see much of the Scions as time goes on unfortunately.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
15-04-2014, 03:15
Having looked through it, I can't say I dislike the MT Codex. Sure, the fluff is dull and somewhat annoying, but I was going to use them as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers anyway. The rules seem... acceptable for that. No Chimeras is stupid, though. I'll end up just asking my opponents if they mind me taking them. The Warlord traits are a bit lackluster, too. Again, for what I'm planning, that seems unimportant, but it's worth noting. The orders are okay, though access is rather limited. I suspect I'll generally end up using the TL one. And the airborne formation looks fun.
Not sure I'd actually spend money on the codex, though.

DoctorTom
15-04-2014, 15:16
This is seriously one of the best 40k books out there, I obliterated it in like one sitting.

That sounds like damning with faint praise.



As for Abnett, I did enjoy his Guardians of the Galaxy run.

Lord Cook
15-04-2014, 20:08
Yet I still do not like Abnett. I do not like the way he makes this mary sue garbage. I do not like his trivial tricks and self idolisation. His portrayal of antagonists are pretty lacklustre, and his work is hack. You can say other authors do it worse, but I'm not talking about them. If you wish to, go ahead, but I'm talking about Abnett.

His portrayal of antagonists is poor, I agree! He relies on frequently annoying tricks for his heroes to survive, agreed! Our disagreement is more fundamental than this.

If you insist on vociferously attacking a single author for committing genre-defining tropes, that's exactly the opposite of mature and elevated critical review; virtues you mentioned (albeit in deliberately ironic fashion). Your desire not to dumb down for a particular genre (something I can agree with) is being deeply compromised by singling out a succesful author within a genre and calling him a hack for being, basically, a part of that genre.

That one paragraph might as well be my entire post. It's the only issue of importance here.


But they are agile slaughter houses of death and destruction. Ferocious monsters of genocide and carnage. His portrayal in my eyes is one of them being a stepladder, a pedestal for the Ghosts to be simply propped atop.

Yes, true. The problem you've got is that if we follow that train of thought to an obvious conclusion, no Guard story can ever include Chaos Space Marines, because the Guard will always die horribly and the story end when all the characters in it are dead.

But the individual causes of death for the Chaos Marines were mostly plausible.


No, if I was being prejudice, I'd be giving other cliches a pass. For one, this is a small building block to my loathing of Abnett.

But I've yet to hear a criticism of Abnett that doesn't seem to apply to the whole genre. So it certainly seems to be just a personal attack for being part of a group.


Vision Slit? Damn good/lucky shot. No, that's all fine. Totally cool. Now in the 40k universe when Chaos Space Marines attack, everyone just flip your las cells to full power. Here lies my problem. I've never heard of it happening before, or after since.

I've never heard of another example of a Primarch punching a small chink in another Primarch's armour allowing a psychic attack to get through and kill him. But that happened and it's about 1000 times more unlikely and extraordinary. This is a Space Marine dying because he was shot in the face with a laser weapon. It happens. They're not indestructible. I don't get the big deal.


It was just something Dan stuck in because he wanted it to happen, much akin to his world where they had anti-grav tech coming out their backsides, despite skimmer tech being rare as rocking horse poop.

The canon makes countless mention of some worlds being barely more than feudal medieval societies. Are we suggesting it can't go the other way? In a million worlds? Even the Imperial Guard used to have Land Speeders back in the day. This criticism doesn't hold water.


If you're saying this is just action pulp and shouldn't be taken seriously, fair enough... I find the books **** and warped for Dan's ego and Mary Sues and the 40k template is pushed aside when it suits in jarring fashions.

I think pretty much all 40k novels are action pulp, and none of them should be taken very seriously. But the Mary Sue criticism, stuff about it not being a proper 40k template, and especially making judgements on the author's 'ego', are all wildly off the mark. The underlying arguments beneath your rhetoric don't really hold up as anything other than genre generalisations.


Benequin, tonna grid, whatever the name of the living saint chick is in the HH there are more but they are the main offenders, he'll crud takes a dive in a flying transport and only loses a little finger.

When I said "Again, how large a proportion of all stories ever does this apply to?" I wasn't talking about Abnett's stories. I was talking about all stories, ever. That's not an Abnett specific criticism.


Space wolves having the ability to skin someone reengineer it then put it back on a person making him nearly a space marine

Haven't read any of his Marine's work, won't defend it or otherwise.


organic flowers, a whole world where everyone has super rare suspensor technology, if I went back through his books I could find more but that means punishing myself by reading Dan abnett.

Organic flowers? What's wrong with that? And in case that was a typo, what would be wrong with inorganic flowers? As for suspensors, see comment above.


His last command they are under siege and the ghosts use unusual weapons, any other regiment would get inquisition attention just for seeing it, death for using it but the ghosts have plot immunity.

They were human weapons, not xenos. We have no idea what the Inquisition did with all the weapons afterwards, or what action they took based on that event.


Who cares if the village put there to get slaughtered got slaughtered, marines have superior training, superior armour and superior weapons which all enhances much faster reaction speeds, in fluff a marine will see you predict your method of attack and then kill you in under a second, humans in small numbers are zero threat at close range because the marine is a genetically engineered super man.

Sure, 99 times out of a 100. That doesn't make that rare event impossible, and it doesn't make a Marine immune to having half a kilo of high explosive dropped on his head.

How about this one; an army composed of personal-glory-obsessed, hand-to-hand-combat-orientated psychos stands 0% chance of beating a professionally trained military force based on ranged weapons and artillery. Oh, but this is 40k, so they do.

Formerly Wu
15-04-2014, 20:49
Benequin, tonna grid, whatever the name of the living saint chick is in the HH there are more but they are the main offenders, he'll crud takes a dive in a flying transport and only loses a little finger.
And on the other hand, there's [spoilers] Muril, the Vervunhive sniper who spends an entire book being groomed as a replacement main character/avenger for Bragg, only to get murdered offscreen by his killer in the final pages.

Not to mention that Benequin is comatose and effectively dead for long stretches of Eisenhorn/Ravenor.

Inquisitor Shego
15-04-2014, 20:59
And on the other hand, there's [spoilers] Muril, the Vervunhive sniper who spends an entire book being groomed as a replacement main character/avenger for Bragg, only to get murdered offscreen by his killer in the final pages.

Not to mention that Benequin is comatose and effectively dead for long stretches of Eisenhorn/Ravenor.

I actually knew Muril was going to die. She was described as having freckles and being a bit of a tomboy. Eeeeek, dead meat that one

(I was right)

Cook, I'm at work. I'll lock horns with you later

Inquisitor Shego
15-04-2014, 21:59
His portrayal of antagonists is poor, I agree! He relies on frequently annoying tricks for his heroes to survive, agreed! Our disagreement is more fundamental than this.

If you insist on vociferously attacking a single author for committing genre-defining tropes, that's exactly the opposite of mature and elevated critical review; virtues you mentioned (albeit in deliberately ironic fashion). Your desire not to dumb down for a particular genre (something I can agree with) is being deeply compromised by singling out a succesful author within a genre and calling him a hack for being, basically, a part of that genre.

That one paragraph might as well be my entire post. It's the only issue of importance here.


Well as the rest of your post doesn't matter then, lets look at what led us here. I mentioned I do not believe that the Militarum Tempestus Codex creates a convincing backdrop for the existence of people like Gaunt or Cain. I only know of Cain through word of mouth from my housemate, so all I can comment on is Abnett. That is why -I- discussing him, and only him in this thread. From there it branched on to broader subjects included Red Dwarf. The link between Abnett and the Miltarum Tempestus book, something I doubt he worked on, is tenuous, but it had some relation hence me bringing him (and more importantly Gaunt) up. I don't recall any books by McNeil, Goto, or others that I have with significant commissars or storm troopers in their midst.

There are ample other authors I like and dislike. This should now clearly explain to you why he is being singled out, and the circumstances that led to this point. I still stand by the point he tells an amazing sentence, but a dire story, shackled by tropes just as sure as Dean Koontz has an obsession with labradors. The only problem is I do feel he is a hack in that genre, and I feel the genre as a whole is not terrible, but he is a false messiah within its midst. I am not looking for War and Peace or The Brothers Karamazov.

Maybe I've grown up over time, or maybe reading too many books by the same author makes him predictable to the reader. I recall enjoying the first three Gaunts Ghost novels. Maybe I have too high a standard. All in all though I am still left firmly feeling he is a Mary Sue pushing fan fic writer with a high page count. *shrug*

Ironbone
15-04-2014, 22:01
Cook, I'm at work. I'll lock horns with you later
That's lovely, but can you ram each other heads about MT codex instead of Dan Abnett writing :p ?

Please :) ?

Inquisitor Shego
15-04-2014, 22:16
That's lovely, but can you ram each other heads about MT codex instead of Dan Abnett writing :p ?

Please :) ?

I'm done. I still feel what I feel. I also feel if people like Abnett, fair play to them. This book however, I was sort of okay with it, but now I've seen the Guard codex come out, this thing seems.... obsolete. Awful. Redundant. I feel robbed of 30 :-/ I stick to my guns. This is the last faux-codex I ever buy

Ssilmath
15-04-2014, 22:19
This is the last faux-codex I ever buy

Till the next one fills you with hope and then dashes them into the depths of oblivion once again, no doubt :D

Inquisitor Shego
15-04-2014, 22:21
Till the next one fills you with hope and then dashes them into the depths of oblivion once again, no doubt :D

..................*sigh* it's true :(

duffybear1988
16-04-2014, 07:50
Till the next one fills you with hope and then dashes them into the depths of oblivion once again, no doubt :D

Yep... we're suckers for punishment.

Freman Bloodglaive
16-04-2014, 08:21
Till the next one fills you with hope and then dashes them into the depths of oblivion once again, no doubt :D

Hope is the first step on the path to disappointment.

hobojebus
16-04-2014, 11:57
When I said "Again, how large a proportion of all stories ever does this apply to?" I wasn't talking about Abnett's stories. I was talking about all stories, ever. That's not an Abnett specific criticism.

Well I've read hundreds of books from lovecraft to Herbert, Hamilton to king and only in abnett novels does being pretty make you immortal.


Organic flowers? What's wrong with that? And in case that was a typo, what would be wrong with inorganic flowers? As for suspensors, see comment above.

Tablet autocorrected and I missed it, but yes in the third book the Lord grows metal flowers a technology never seen in 40k and included only to save gaunt later on, as for suspend or tech it is one of the rarest technologies in the imperium, death watch marines can have portable heavy weapons they can move and shoot with but regular marines can't because it's so rare it's saved for the elite of the elite.

Planes and shuttles that use brute force to travel are common but suspensor vehicles are not common anywhere in the imperium of man, if there was a world full of that tech the admech would copy it even if they did not understand it and the guard would hover trucks and the like.

Abnett not only does not stick to fluff he tends to outright ignore it.


Sure, 99 times out of a 100. That doesn't make that rare event impossible, and it doesn't make a Marine immune to having half a kilo of high explosive dropped on his head.

How about this one; an army composed of personal-glory-obsessed, hand-to-hand-combat-orientated psychos stands 0% chance of beating a professionally trained military force based on ranged weapons and artillery. Oh, but this is 40k, so they do.

The explosive to the head kill was fine, but the others were highly suspect in a universe where 100 marines can take a whole world.

As for the trained soldier always winning you may want to read some history like the Zulu wars, there is one famous battle where near naked men with spears and leather shields massacred the British force that had the best weapons of their time.

xerxeshavelock
16-04-2014, 13:01
Getting bored with the Abnett discussion

Mauler
16-04-2014, 14:20
Planes and shuttles that use brute force to travel are common but suspensor vehicles are not common anywhere in the imperium of man, if there was a world full of that tech the admech would copy it even if they did not understand it and the guard would hover trucks and the like.

Abnett not only does not stick to fluff he tends to outright ignore it.

Find me evidence of the Adeptus Mechanicus doing this anywhere in the primary canon - rule book or codex. I doubt you'll find anything significant. The Mechanicus revere the Machine God for a reason and anything that's not sprung from STC recoveries is mostly binned as heresy. Why do you think in 40k the Mechanicus barely creates anything new?

Inquisitor Shego
16-04-2014, 14:32
Why do you think in 40k the Mechanicus barely creates anything new?

Because the moulds at Nottingham are expensive to produce

Mauler
16-04-2014, 16:39
Because the moulds at Nottingham are expensive to produce

Not for Forge World, who seem to be knocking them out just fine. ;)

Apart from Shrike wings. Those are no longer available. :mad:

Elric
16-04-2014, 20:47
, as for suspend or tech it is one of the rarest technologies in the imperium, death watch marines can have portable heavy weapons they can move and shoot with but regular marines can't because it's so rare it's saved for the elite of the elite.

Planes and shuttles that use brute force to travel are common but suspensor vehicles are not common anywhere in the imperium of man, if there was a world full of that tech the admech would copy it even if they did not understand it and the guard would hover trucks and the like.

Abnett not only does not stick to fluff he tends to outright ignore it.


Quite right, it's not like they give these things to whole imperial guard regiments to jump out of aircraft with.

hobojebus
17-04-2014, 00:41
Find me evidence of the Adeptus Mechanicus doing this anywhere in the primary canon - rule book or codex. I doubt you'll find anything significant. The Mechanicus revere the Machine God for a reason and anything that's not sprung from STC recoveries is mostly binned as heresy. Why do you think in 40k the Mechanicus barely creates anything new?

Because it's a) an existing technology and b) it's human technology the admech would not reject it.

Also in the souldrinker books we have adepts on a forge world reverse engineering a heresy era weapon stolen from the souldrinkers, so we know it's not impossible for the admech to reverse engineer technology.

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 01:38
Quite right, it's not like they give these things to whole imperial guard regiments to jump out of aircraft with.

Don't Valkyries hover by using the thrust ports on the wing tips as opposed to the anti-gravity engines?

Ssilmath
17-04-2014, 01:39
Don't Valkyries hover by using the thrust ports on the wing tips as opposed to the anti-gravity engines?

Grav chutes.

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 02:10
Grav chutes.

Hey valid point. Forgot all about them. I'd still argue that there's a difference between mass transit for every joe bloggs and specialist regiments from a world or two, but you make a valid case when you tie it in with "big wide universe"

Lord Cook
17-04-2014, 14:05
That is why -I- discussing him, and only him in this thread. From there it branched on to broader subjects included Red Dwarf. The link between Abnett and the Miltarum Tempestus book, something I doubt he worked on, is tenuous, but it had some relation hence me bringing him (and more importantly Gaunt) up. I don't recall any books by McNeil, Goto, or others that I have with significant commissars or storm troopers in their midst.

There are ample other authors I like and dislike. This should now clearly explain to you why he is being singled out, and the circumstances that led to this point.

Ok, I understand the circumstances that led to Abnett being pointed out and why you responded to such. Fair enough. I stand by my stance of defending an author I felt was being attacked on a very individual level when in reality the issue wasn't really with him as opposed to most of his genre.


That's lovely, but can you ram each other heads about MT codex instead of Dan Abnett writing :p ?

Surely this is more fun? ;)

Ok, trying to wrap things up...


Well I've read hundreds of books from lovecraft to Herbert, Hamilton to king and only in abnett novels does being pretty make you immortal.

Except he doesn't. Other people have already cited examples of main characters dying. They've lost numorous main characters over the course of the series. And if you're suggesting that the average non-40k stories do not give the very strong impression, on a very frequent basis, that their main characters are very unlikely to die, I can only laugh. Sorry. It's just not a credible argument.


metal flowers... suspensor tech... if there was a world full of that tech the admech would copy it even if they did not understand it and the guard would hover trucks and the like... Abnett not only does not stick to fluff he tends to outright ignore it.

As I said, the Guard used to have Land Speeders. Some worlds are medieval. Some are highly advanced. The main rulebook constantly makes reference to myriad worlds with myriad different technologies and cultures. I just don't get the big deal.

None of the tech feels out of character with the wider canon. You sometimes see stuff that's unique, like the metal flowers, but nothing that ever makes you go "oh that couldn't happen".


The explosive to the head kill was fine, but the others were highly suspect in a universe where 100 marines can take a whole world.

I think it's strange you think 100 Marines could capture an entire world (presumably with hundreds of millions or even billions of people) but you can't stand the idea of a small elite team of Guardsmen, supported by hundreds of natives, killing 5 Space Marines. They're both very unlikely, but I think it's clear which is worse.


As for the trained soldier always winning you may want to read some history like the Zulu wars, there is one famous battle where near naked men with spears and leather shields massacred the British force that had the best weapons of their time.

Might have had something to do with the fact that the British were outnumbered 10 to 1, and because of a fault with their tactical supply chain they couldn't bring ammunition up fast enough from the supply wagons, leaving them with nothing but bayonets against the Impis. And by your very logic, even greatly inferior troops can defeat relatively elite troops if the circumstances favour them. Thanks for pointing that out.

You don't like Abnett. I get it. I don't have a problem with that. Just don't use bad examples to justify it.

OuroborosTriumphant
17-04-2014, 14:14
Not for Forge World, who seem to be knocking them out just fine. ;)

Apart from Shrike wings. Those are no longer available. :mad:

Resin molds are much, much cheaper than plastic molds, but resin miniatures cost more to make per unit. So things can be profitably made in FW resin (and in finecast, more or less) that would never pay for themselves if made in plastic, but for things GW expects to sell a whole load of a particular kit, it becomes more cost-effective to shell out the big buck up front to do it in plastic.

Mauler
17-04-2014, 16:23
Because it's a) an existing technology and b) it's human technology the admech would not reject it.

Also in the souldrinker books we have adepts on a forge world reverse engineering a heresy era weapon stolen from the souldrinkers, so we know it's not impossible for the admech to reverse engineer technology.

Novels are secondary canon, not primary. Where there is a conflict the primary canon takes presidence as it's the core of the material and the focus of the system. The Mech is astoundingly insular and fails to progress it's tech specifically because high-ranking Magi refuse to allow the use of any tech that isn't created by the Mechanicus because that tech wouldn't originate from the Machine God. That would be heresy, tsk. The Mechanicus is capable of reverse-engineering relic tech some of the time, but the issue is whether it would be allowed to be replicated and used. Most of the time...I think not. :(

hobojebus
17-04-2014, 16:53
Except he doesn't. Other people have already cited examples of main characters dying. They've lost numorous main characters over the course of the series. And if you're suggesting that the average non-40k stories do not give the very strong impression, on a very frequent basis, that their main characters are veryunlikely to die, I can only laugh. Sorry. It's just not a credible argument.

Except we are only on about pretty female characters here not all character`s, and those he does not kill off and the one example given was a female but was not the classic pretty abnett girl so is the exception to the rule.


As I said, the Guard used to have Land Speeders. Some worlds are medieval. Some are highly advanced. The main rulebook constantly makes reference to myriad worlds with myriad different technologies and cultures. I just don't get the big deal.

None of the tech feels out of character with the wider canon. You sometimes see stuff that's unique, like the metal flowers, but nothing that ever makes you go "oh that couldn't happen".

They are just a few examples, in almost every book he invents something that not only does not fit into 40k it cannot, once again I return to HH era space wolves being able to remove and remake someone's flesh from their bones, this is outright impossible for imperial technology, to extend life time for average humans takes rare and extremely expensive rejuvenat drugs and bionic augmentation and can at best make them live three centuries.

We know from lore you can not turn a grown man into an astartes, you can enhance them with cybernetics and drug therapy but the will never match a true spacemarine.

Kor phaeron of the word bearers is a prime example he is the adopted father of a primarch and he has no access to this remaking process but an archaeologist the wolf king hasn't even met gets remade into a proto astartes it makes no sense but is typical of abnett.


I think it's strange you think 100 Marines could capture an entire world (presumably with hundreds of millions or even billions of people) but you can't stand the idea of a small elite team of Guardsmen, supported by hundreds of natives, killing 5 Space Marines. They're both very unlikely, but I think it's clear which is worse.

12 space wolves defeated an entire dark eldar invasion using guerrilla tactics and the help of a few locals, it's Canon that space marines can do just that kind of thing which is exactly why a few mortals no matter how elite would not so easily defeat a few guardsmen.


How about this one; an army composed of personal-glory-obsessed, hand-to-hand-combat-orientated psychos stands 0% chance of beating a professionally trained military force based on ranged weapons and artillery. Oh, but this is 40k, so they do

That's what you wrote but when I give you an example of just that you move the goal posts then resort to AD HOMINEM, I could just as easily used Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Russians, Vietnam or any number of wars where the larger professional force loses to rabble reaching to the Roman empire and beyond.

Trained soldiers and big guns alone don't win wars.

Ssilmath
17-04-2014, 16:57
That's what you wrote but when I give you an example of just that you move the goal posts then resort to AD HOMINEM, I could just as easily used Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Russians, Vietnam or any number of wars where the larger professional force loses to rabble reaching to the Roman empire and beyond.

Except, they were losing slowly but surely to the Russians until they got big guns and training of their own. The Vietnamese had a poor record of defeating American forces in battle, but won in the political and public realm even as the American forces were restrained by politicians. Keep trying though.

Formerly Wu
17-04-2014, 17:30
Except we are only on about pretty female characters here not all character`s, and those he does not kill off and the one example given was a female but was not the classic pretty abnett girl so is the exception to the rule.
I feel like you're relying on an oddly specific category to make your point here. What separates a "classic Abnett pretty girl" from Muril, a sympathetic and skilled character who was almost the first Vervunhive scout? Or Angharad, the swordswoman who was killed by the demon at the end of Ravenor, and was the member of a love triangle with two main characters?

Theocracity
17-04-2014, 17:42
They are just a few examples, in almost every book he invents something that not only does not fit into 40k it cannot, once again I return to HH era space wolves being able to remove and remake someone's flesh from their bones, this is outright impossible for imperial technology, to extend life time for average humans takes rare and extremely expensive rejuvenat drugs and bionic augmentation and can at best make them live three centuries.

We know from lore you can not turn a grown man into an astartes, you can enhance them with cybernetics and drug therapy but the will never match a true spacemarine.

Kor phaeron of the word bearers is a prime example he is the adopted father of a primarch and he has no access to this remaking process but an archaeologist the wolf king hasn't even met gets remade into a proto astartes it makes no sense but is typical of abnett.

I highly disagree with this kind of fluff essentialism, but I recognize that a rigid view of fictional capabilities is appealing to some people and thus don't really have much to say about it. I'll just say that everything you describe is one of the things I like most about Abnett and find lacking in most 40K fiction - a willingness to push the boundaries to illuminate a bigger, weirder world than the one I think I know.

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 19:03
Ok, I understand the circumstances that led to Abnett being pointed out and why you responded to such. Fair enough. I stand by my stance of defending an author I felt was being attacked on a very individual level when in reality the issue wasn't really with him as opposed to most of his genre.

Defend him all you want. I find Abnett's books predominantly, though not with one hundred percent reliability, pretty crap. As I said, if others love him, fair enough. I hate the CSM Dex (REVELATION!!!) but Ssilmath likes it and I don't think him wrong. I would target other authors but lets see where this Codex Militarum thread has gone...

Codex Militarum pros and cons?
Fluff evolution or devolution?
It's a big universe
Death to Abnett!!!
Oooh Red Dwarf Season 11?!?!?
Abnett Wars Episode 2 - The Fanboys Strike Back
Forge World Molds
Zulus and Vietnam

But as you point on using bad examples. Those examples are just fine for me. They bring out an emotional response of displeasure. Just as Dan Abnett doesn't care about my opinon (he told me to my face), I don't care if my reasoning for the disliking meets your standards.


Except, they were losing slowly but surely to the Russians until they got big guns and training of their own. The Vietnamese had a poor record of defeating American forces in battle, but won in the political and public realm even as the American forces were restrained by politicians. Keep trying though.

The Russians never lost in Afghanistan. They just went home. The Mujhadeed and the whole belief of Stinger missiles scoring a victory was barely felt. It was a Soviet Union adapting to change and Gorbachev's desire to begin bringing the madness of the Cold War to an end that helped speed that one along. That and seeing Rambo III in a private screening.

The battle with Afghanistan is an interesting one. Giap's believe was that if their casultey rate was lower than their birth rate they would outlast the Americans. He was right. The Tet Offensive was a massive loss, but even if the unforseen media backlash hadn't have continued, the NVA would have continued to push on. They'd been fighting a war for independence for hundreds of years against the Chinese, French, Japanese, French, and then the Americans... and then briefly against the Chinese again.

One thing I will say is I can get guardsmen killing marines. It shouldn't be an impossibility. It was just the cornball way Abnett did it in my view seemed to detract from the threat level of the traitor marines. This is why I feel that Gaunt's Ghosts are often Mary Sues with Plot Armour. Even Corbec, and Muril, and Bragg had to die to another Ghost. That's how powerful Ghosts are. Only a Ghost can kill one. Admittedly, I didn't see Corbec's death coming, or Braggs. Muril's I saw coming a mile off.


I feel like you're relying on an oddly specific category to make your point here. What separates a "classic Abnett pretty girl" from Muril, a sympathetic and skilled character who was almost the first Vervunhive scout? Or Angharad, the swordswoman who was killed by the demon at the end of Ravenor, and was the member of a love triangle with two main characters?

Kara Swole has cancer! Lets just wizard that away.... Going off of memory, Muril died because she was described as being a bit of a tomboy with freckles and having a boyish laugh. She wasn't sexy enough. However the Angharad one I didn't bother with. I stopped subjecting myself to this **** after the 2nd Ravenor book and His Last Command. Was her love triangle with Nayl and another woman? Was this woman Kys or Kara? Was it two men fighting over her?


I highly disagree with this kind of fluff essentialism, but I recognize that a rigid view of fictional capabilities is appealing to some people and thus don't really have much to say about it. I'll just say that everything you describe is one of the things I like most about Abnett and find lacking in most 40K fiction - a willingness to push the boundaries to illuminate a bigger, weirder world than the one I think I know.

I am all for pushing the boat out. GW's unwillingness to do anything with their fluff cept keep it reset on 41.999 is infuriating at times, but when Dan does this, I don't feel blown away. I feel like he wants to make the universe his, for his awesome mary sues and self inserts, and we all have to be in awe. Our stuff can never be as good as his.

Theocracity
17-04-2014, 19:14
I feel like he wants to make the universe his, for his awesome mary sues and self inserts, and we all have to be in awe. Our stuff can never be as good as his.

I'm really not sure what to say about this besides that it sounds like a personal problem. I'd rather raise my level of fluff creativity and involvement to Abnett's level than have him pulled down to the average codex fluff quality.

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 19:24
I'm really not sure what to say about this besides that it sounds like a personal problem. I'd rather raise my level of fluff creativity and involvement to Abnett's level than have him pulled down to the average codex fluff quality.

Oh Theo I've made plenty of overly inventive crap. My own personal footprint on the 40k universe. I'd just hate to be the person to then say to everyone else "that's also the universe you're playing in too." If Abnett was writing non-canon stuff I'd probably be a lot more forgiving of him. As he's a BL big name, I have to scrutinise.

Formerly Wu
17-04-2014, 19:28
Going off of memory, Muril died because she was described as being a bit of a tomboy with freckles and having a boyish laugh. She wasn't sexy enough.
I'm not really sure how to engage with a statement like that. Besides being kind of... weird, it's arguing from the premise. Muril was killed to double-down on the shock of Bragg's murder, by setting her up as a replacement major character and then murdering her too.


However the Angharad one I didn't bother with. I stopped subjecting myself to this **** after the 2nd Ravenor book and His Last Command. Was her love triangle with Nayl and another woman? Was this woman Kys or Kara? Was it two men fighting over her?
The love triangle was between her, Nayl, and Ravenor. She was the niece of another swordswoman from the same clan who was previously romantically involved with Ravenor, and who also died rather horribly.

There's also Bequin, who was an attractive main character who (eventual survival notwithstanding) was removed from the narrative for an extended period in an abrupt and death-like fashion.

Theocracity
17-04-2014, 19:31
Oh Theo I've made plenty of overly inventive crap. My own personal footprint on the 40k universe. I'd just hate to be the person to then say to everyone else "that's also the universe you're playing in too." If Abnett was writing non-canon stuff I'd probably be a lot more forgiving of him. As he's a BL big name, I have to scrutinise.

Just because someone's a BL writer doesn't mean that their interpretation of the universe matters. Unless you're saying that C.S. Goto's vision also matters. The entire 40K fictional world is designed so that you can pick and choose which vague interpretations you're inspired to build a story out of. Professional writers from Counter to Ward have been doing their thing for years, and none of their stuff bothers me if it doesn't interest me, because 40K is a bigger world than that and I make it my own.

Which is again why I like Abnett - of all the BL writers, he's one of the best at giving the feeling that there's always something new, weird and different in the galaxy no matter where you look - that it's not only the same old stories that were made up by GW in the 80s, only with more bells on.

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 19:39
There's also Bequin, who was an attractive main character who (eventual survival notwithstanding) was removed from the narrative for an extended period in an abrupt and death-like fashion.

Which made me shout out "Oh **** off" because it's one of his annoying bait and switches. She dies, turn page, in a coma. It was like Kent Brockman's Action News. The President Dies... his hair!



Just because someone's a BL writer doesn't mean that their interpretation of the universe matters. Unless you're saying that C.S. Goto's vision also matters. The entire 40K fictional world is designed so that you can pick and choose which vague interpretations you're inspired to build a story out of. Professional writers from Counter to Ward have been doing their thing for years, and none of their stuff bothers me if it doesn't interest me, because 40K is a bigger world than that and I make it my own.

Which is again why I like Abnett - of all the BL writers, he's one of the best at giving the feeling that there's always something new, weird and different in the galaxy no matter where you look - that it's not only the same old stories that were made up by GW in the 80s, only with more bells on.

You know Theo, I'm going to give you a pat on the back. You've made me realise, I never thought I could ignore Dan Abnett until now. Now you've made me realise the best way to put my hate of him aside is to simply go "your material is self-worshipping ********, and it ceases to exist in my own pocket 40k". I'm not being sarcastic or snide. I honestly just had a revelation, so thank you


I'm not really sure how to engage with a statement like that. Besides being kind of... weird, it's arguing from the premise. Muril was killed to double-down on the shock of Bragg's murder, by setting her up as a replacement major character and then murdering her too.

This is true. I'm just telling you why she was chosen, and how I accurately guessed she was dead meat before the end of the book. This is why I cannot read Abnett. I see most of his **** coming a mile off

lordreaven448
17-04-2014, 19:54
Question. What does Abnett have to do with Codex: Militarum Tempestus? Or the Discussion of said Codex? Not be be THAT guy, but I'm sure this (to be rather honest, fascinating) discussion be taken elsewhere in the forum.


On topic: So my local group seems to love the book. we already have a few players working them into their armies via Allies (GAH!). I seem to be the only person who wants to run them stand alone.

Formerly Wu
17-04-2014, 19:58
This is true. I'm just telling you why she was chosen, and how I accurately guessed she was dead meat before the end of the book. This is why I cannot read Abnett. I see most of his **** coming a mile off
I feel like you're bringing some assumptions to this argument that you're not interested in changing and I don't really want to engage with, so I'll just drop it.


You know Theo, I'm going to give you a pat on the back. You've made me realise, I never thought I could ignore Dan Abnett until now. Now you've made me realise the best way to put my hate of him aside is to simply go "your material is self-worshipping ********, and it ceases to exist in my own pocket 40k". I'm not being sarcastic or snide. I honestly just had a revelation, so thank you
No joke, the realization that you can compartmentalize what you care about/acknowledge as important is a huge relief.

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 19:59
Question. What does Abnett have to do with Codex: Militarum Tempestus? Or the Discussion of said Codex? Not be be THAT guy, but I'm sure this (to be rather honest, fascinating) discussion be taken elsewhere in the forum.

Just an earlier mention I don't believe Gaunt or Cain could have come from one of the schools where these guys were raised.


I feel like you're bringing some assumptions to this argument that you're not interested in changing and I don't really want to engage with, so I'll just drop it.

Some people don't like the stuff you like. Some people love the stuff you hate. For everything else there's Mastercard.



On topic: So my local group seems to love the book. we already have a few players working them into their armies via Allies (GAH!). I seem to be the only person who wants to run them stand alone.

I was debating on running them as stand alone, but regular Guard seem to do it sooo much better. My main put off is being forced into a Taurox. This book reeks of "buy our new playsets and toys"

Theocracity
17-04-2014, 20:09
You know Theo, I'm going to give you a pat on the back. You've made me realise, I never thought I could ignore Dan Abnett until now. Now you've made me realise the best way to put my hate of him aside is to simply go "your material is self-worshipping ********, and it ceases to exist in my own pocket 40k". I'm not being sarcastic or snide. I honestly just had a revelation, so thank you

Glad to be of assistance :). It's a useful skill to have with any fictional world that employs multiple authors - 40k, comic books, Star Wars / Trek, what have you.

Formerly Wu
17-04-2014, 20:12
Just an earlier mention I don't believe Gaunt or Cain could have come from one of the schools where these guys were raised.
On that we agree.

The codex is nice if you play Adepta Sororitas or Inquisition, and want proper stormtroopers (as opposed to BS3 henchmen wanna-bes) to flesh out your force. I can't see the point of it as a solo exercise, though. The fluff presented as-is makes for rather unpleasant protagonists, and they don't add that much to another Imperial force (and nothing to IG, who get them anyway).

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 20:22
On that we agree.

And just to be clear Wu, though I disagree with you on the subject of Abnett, there is not a shred of personal dislike to you, or to anyone else who admires his books.
t

duffybear1988
17-04-2014, 20:35
Can we stop bad mouthing Dan?

His writing may not be the best but for thousands of preteen/teenage kids he has probably been instrumental in boosting their literacy and reading skills. I first picked up some of his early BL work as a kid and it was hia novels and imagination that encouraged me to read, even if it was bolterporn. Face it 40k is a joke anyway and nothing Abnett writes could ever be as bad as the codex fluff they are churning out now.

Just because something isn't classical literature doesn't make it terrible. His books are a tad predictable but I always find them entertaining, just like the Wilt, Flashman and Bolitho novels.

Now stop bashing Dan! :)

I'm off to finish some Voltaire.

Lord Cook
17-04-2014, 20:56
Except we are only on about pretty female characters here not all character`s, and those he does not kill off and the one example given was a female but was not the classic pretty abnett girl so is the exception to the rule.

No, actually we were talking about all characters. You've just had at least two female characters that died, and now it's "well one of them wasn't pretty enough". What if other people find freckles attractive? :)


They are just a few examples

Ok. But the examples you cited regarding the Guard-focussed books were mostly bad examples. I'll take your word on the Space Wolf ones.


once again I return to HH era space wolves being able to remove and remake someone's flesh from their bones, this is outright impossible for imperial technology

As I say, I've never read those books. It used to be possible in the core canon for a Space Marine to eat a brain and know all the memories stored in that brain though. 40k is filled with some pretty weird **** if you go back far enough in game editions.


We know from lore you can not turn a grown man into an astartes, you can enhance them with cybernetics and drug therapy but the will never match a true spacemarine.

Agreed, that seems out of place.


12 space wolves defeated an entire dark eldar invasion using guerrilla tactics and the help of a few locals, it's Canon that space marines can do just that kind of thing which is exactly why a few mortals no matter how elite would not so easily defeat a few guardsmen.

How big was the invasion? And out of curiosity, where was that fluff written? Not the Space Wolves codex by any chance? I stand by my point. If as you suggested, 100 Space Marines can conquer an entire planet, then a small band of guardsmen attacking from ideal ambush positions can kill a few Space Marines. The former is no less unlikely than the latter.

If your argument is that one has appeared in the core canon before and the other has not, I'd suggest you're taking a very rigid interpretation of what the 40k universe could or could not consist of.


How about this one; an army composed of personal-glory-obsessed, hand-to-hand-combat-orientated psychos stands 0% chance of beating a professionally trained military force based on ranged weapons and artillery. Oh, but this is 40k, so they do


That's what you wrote but when I give you an example of just that you move the goal posts then resort to AD HOMINEM, I could just as easily used Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Russians, Vietnam or any number of wars where the larger professional force loses to rabble reaching to the Roman empire and beyond.

Oh come on that's silly.

1) The Zulus weren't personal-glory-obsessed psychos. And the British had ranged weapons and artillery but ran out of ammunition because of logistical problems. Also, the Zulus had a 10-to-1 numerical advantage.

2) I haven't moved the goal posts. You have. I was talking about 40k, but apparently we're now talking about the Zulu Wars, Vietnam, and Afghanistan? What does this have to do with anything? None, precisely none, of these armies fit the description of "personal-glory-obsessed, hand-to-hand-combat-orientated psychos" so why did you highlight them? You've focussed everything on a throwaway statement I made to illustrate the general ludicrousness of the 40k universe. I don't understand why.Talk about changing the goal posts.

3) Trying to summarise this debate, your argument seems to be that it's possible for rabble to win in unlikely circumstances, so long as it's not against Space Marines. And it's ok for Space Marines to achieve ludicrously stupendous achievements of total impropability, but Guardsmen killing a few Space Marines don't get the same honour for a much less improbable feat of arms. Oh, and Abnett's characters are invincible. Except the men. And except the less pretty women. And then not all of the less pretty women.


EDIT: In the interests of finding something we can draw to a conclusion on, would it be fair to say that:

> You think something should only be allowed if it already exists in the core canon, unlikely or not?
> I think most things should be allowed, so long as they don't fundamentally break the fluff, regardless of whether it's appeared before?

This is the best I can come to in terms of something we might agree on so we can let it rest.





But as you point on using bad examples. Those examples are just fine for me. They bring out an emotional response of displeasure. Just as Dan Abnett doesn't care about my opinon (he told me to my face), I don't care if my reasoning for the disliking meets your standards.

I thought we'd just reached a nice agree to disagree moment? :)

Formerly Wu
17-04-2014, 21:03
And just to be clear Wu, though I disagree with you on the subject of Abnett, there is not a shred of personal dislike to you, or to anyone else who admires his books.
t
Likewise, Shego.

lordreaven448
17-04-2014, 21:34
I was debating on running them as stand alone, but regular Guard seem to do it sooo much better. My main put off is being forced into a Taurox. This book reeks of "buy our new playsets and toys"
Of course it reeks "Buy our new shiny toys", that's been GW's thing for years now *cough*Carnifex nerf to sell Trygons*cough* *cough*Defiler nerf to sell fiends*cough*. As stand alone army the Tempestus seem to offer something. I'm not sure what it is yet. But something keeps drawing me to them.

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 21:40
No, actually we were talking about all characters. You've just had at least two female characters that died, and now it's "well one of them wasn't pretty enough". What if other people find freckles attractive? :)

All I can say there Cook is I predicted Muril was going to die the moment that description was made. She died.
I predicted the remembrancer would survive despite being told she died, because she was a blonde and pretty character. She lived

I did this a lot of times. Most of my hate for the books comes from being able to see what he's sending my way. There is no element of surprise, but lots of eye rolling.


I thought we'd just reached a nice agree to disagree moment? :(

I hate his finished product. You love his work. I don't hate you. You don't hate me. I respect that different people will like different things, including Dan Abnett books, and understand why people like his material. I also as I said before think he makes interesting worldscapes and writes a gorgeous sentence :) It's just sometimes I feel the stifling rigidity of the fluff applies to everyone but Dan Abnett. If not, and we're all allowed to do our own thing, then I will view him as a skilled fanfic writer. Theo hit the nail on the head. You don't have to accept or embrace every piece of fan fiction. I do though find his books very predictable.

NOW LETS TALL ABOUT CODEX MILITARUM TEMPESTUS

Lord Cook
17-04-2014, 21:48
You love his work.

Believe me, I really don't! At best he's a decent writer. Average. Skilled in some ways and deeply flawed in others. Rushes his endings. I just like a nice debate. :p

Onwards to Tempestus!

Inquisitor Shego
17-04-2014, 21:59
One of the things I love about Codex Tempestus is the way it shows the Imperium on the offensive. There's talk of operations where the Scions get stuck in and go on the hunt, not affraid to stick it to the Eldar or Nids or Orks. This feels like an aggressive Imperium I could warm to, as opposed to the more common, but not completely uniform concept of the antagonist hitting an Imperial World, and the Astartes rolling in to save the day. The story of rescuing the heretical planetary governess had me loling hard too.

hobojebus
17-04-2014, 22:11
No, actually we were talking about all characters. You've just had at least two female characters that died, and now it's "well one of them wasn't pretty enough". What if other people find freckles attractive? :)

Well if there was confusion then sorry i was only ever on about pretty female characters being immortal the same as shego. as for people liking freckle i'll hunt and burn those foul chaos deviants later.


As I say, I've never read those books. It used to be possible in the core canon for a Space Marine to eat a brain and know all the memories stored in that brain though. 40k is filled with some pretty weird **** if you go back far enough in game editions.

Well i wasnt around for rogue trader i started in 2nd ed but one thing that's always been consistent is you have one really expensive way to prolong the human life span and thats juvent treatments, back in 2nd ed of course it also sometimes included the mind being wiped clean if it was an organization like the inquisition doing it.

Whats offensive is its not consistent with the very HH series of books its a part of, space wolves are not quite the barbarians they pretend to be but its not very likely that they alone in all the galaxy have the technology to perform total body transmogrification making an elderly man into a near space marine.

The only reason it was done was because that char was abnett inserting himself into the story and he didn't want to just be an elderly archaeologist that was pivotal to the story, he had to be a bad ass too.


How big was the invasion? And out of curiosity, where was that fluff written? Not the Space Wolves codex by any chance? I stand by my point. If as you suggested, 100 Space Marines can conquer an entire planet, then a small band of guardsmen attacking from ideal ambush positions can kill a few Space Marines. The former is no less unlikely than the latter.

It was a few hundred dark elves with their own fortresses on a world they had conquered, they'd come every few years to collect sacrifices, the story is set during the HH its in one of the earlier collected works.


You think something should only be allowed if it already exists in the core canon, even if it's extremely unlikely?

I think its allowable if its consistent with the universe, you can introduce new aslong as it does not directly contradict previously established lore.

Other wise why have an overarching universe in the first place?


I think most things should be allowed, so long as they don't fundamentally break the fluff, even if they haven't necessarily appeared before?

Thats the problem it does break the fluff, you'll notice i dont rail against writers like William King,Kyme who did an excellent job with vulkan lives or Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

There is nothing that takes me out of a story quicker than the blatantly impossible, and with abnett it happens so frequently its become a trope.

Frep
17-04-2014, 22:37
I have to admit I was originally kind of sour on the whole codex but I just had a bit of an epiphany, we finally have something approaching the old witch/demonhunters books again. Sure we have to smash two books together, three if we want our chamber militants, but at least it's possible again. Of course the or Ordos Xenos is left out in the cold, at least they brought grenades. Though a buddy of mine intends to run his Kill Team as some LoTD

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

Lord Cook
17-04-2014, 22:47
as for people liking freckle i'll hunt and burn those foul chaos deviants later.

Aye, but there's always a lass that can really make the look work. Probably a redhead thing. :)


Whats offensive is its not consistent with the very HH series of books its a part of, space wolves are not quite the barbarians they pretend to be but its not very likely that they alone in all the galaxy have the technology to perform total body transmogrification making an elderly man into a near space marine.

Not read it. I'll go with your interpretation.


It was a few hundred dark elves with their own fortresses on a world they had conquered, they'd come every few years to collect sacrifices, the story is set during the HH its in one of the earlier collected works.

It's sounding a lot more plausible. But I'll stick by my stance that if a tiny group of 100 Space Marines can take a planet, then a Guard kill team plus support can ambush a 5-man squad of Marines. I think the latter is the more plausible by far.


I think its allowable if its consistent with the universe, you can introduce new aslong as it does not directly contradict previously established lore. Other wise why have an overarching universe in the first place?

Totally agreed.


There is nothing that takes me out of a story quicker than the blatantly impossible...

Totally agreed.


...and with abnett it happens so frequently its become a trope.

[Regarding the Guard-focussed books], we'll have to stick with two agreements out of three. ;) Just not seeing this one. Our views on what's plausible within the universe are radically different.

Nice chatting guys.

corps
18-04-2014, 10:48
Woas was this thread the tempestus scion or Dan Abnett? Even if love most of his work this is not a place to discuss about him. either we get back to the subject or we are done and thus this has to be closed.

Ironbone
18-04-2014, 10:58
Well, I started it as codex tempestus discusion, but yeah, it turn into Dan Abnett books discusion ( wich, I must admit, I enjoy, desipie them having tons of flaws ).

Should it be closed right now ? I don't think so, but if situation won't develop back into orginal idea, them maybe such drastic maeasures would be needed.

Inquisitor Shego
18-04-2014, 12:58
I too would like to talk about the Storm Trooper Dex

corps
18-04-2014, 13:19
Does any one noticed that the powers fist of the scion look smaller and in fact much more proportionate than the ugly bulky previous one? Also who knows about Dune the mini series? If you do tell me if i a m right or wrong but look at them paint in black with the hat of some of the Empire state troops. What i see then is the Sardaukar of the house Corino. I think that the scion as a potential to be a very baroque and yet sober unit. I m not a fan of the turquoise blue and gold they use. I think to paint them black and purple like in dune's sardaukar will give them a more sinister look.

I remenber the first storm troper i saw it was from the second ed guard, i found them ugly. after that i dislike the model until the karskin came. They were beautiful. I have never played stormtrooper as such as then and the now the scion don't fit into my idea of choc troops.

Does the scion in militarum tempestus has access to camo cloak? Because the storm trooper fom the last IG don't have acces to it.

Hawkkf
18-04-2014, 14:19
Well what is the consensus on the errors in the book? Camo netting is listed in the armory but not as an upgrade. Hot shot volley guns are incorrectly listed as gets hot. And thier valks only pay 10pts for heavy bolter sponsons when AM from which it is cut and pasted pay 20. Are there other errors in this full codex priced book? Also if there is a digital version, does it correct these errors or leave them?

corps
18-04-2014, 14:21
Really that much of typo and mistakes on a 72 pages book? I really hope the cammo is a mistake.

Ironbone
18-04-2014, 17:07
Really that much of typo and mistakes on a 72 pages book?
Also unbuyable heavy stubber, and one of warlord traits speaking about "warlord and his platton", despite option of platton exists only in astra militarum dex.

Whoever was proofreading, didn't do a very good job.

corps
18-04-2014, 17:14
True about a lot of books in this edition. Are the units balanced intenally?

Ironbone
18-04-2014, 18:47
Well, there is not that many of them to speaking about internal balace :p. Bearly 2 HQ, 1 TR, 2 FA and 0 Elites/HS makes little space for any real choices.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
18-04-2014, 21:37
I m not a fan of the turquoise blue and gold they use. I think to paint them black and purple like in dune's sardaukar will give them a more sinister look.

Yeah, I think the Commissariat would like to have a word with whoever decided on that color scheme. Black and purple could work well. From what I can tell, Inquisitorial black, red, and gold should also work pretty well.

DoctorTom
19-04-2014, 01:44
Don't bring the Commissariat into it, or GW will make it even worse. I just figured out where they got the idea for their latest commissar sculpt - the guy on the right in the picture:

191702

(This is also why GW didn't give us any deep striking Stormtroopers or ones wearing jump packs - the sculpts looked like men in flying squirrel costumes and they decided they just wouldn't be able to sell them.)

Starchild
20-04-2014, 03:51
From what I can tell, Inquisitorial black, red, and gold should also work pretty well.

The codex shows several different Scion regiments with those colours. The Space Wolf grey & turquoise colour scheme is just the rubbish studio army.

Anyway, regardless of how effective this codex is, all I care about is that we finally have Helghasts in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. :chrome: :skull:



Don't bring the Commissariat into it, or GW will make it even worse. I just figured out where they got the idea for their latest commissar sculpt - the guy on the right in the picture:

There's a good reason why the previous edition metal Commissar models are sold out... :(

Vaktathi
20-04-2014, 04:10
Yeah, most of the other color schemes actually do look better than the studio color scheme. Dunno why they went with the blue/gold thing.

That said, re-reading the book, this is I think the worst army book GW has ever put out. Lame rules, incomplete FOC, awful fluff, and atrocious/non-existent proof-reading and editing.

corps
20-04-2014, 08:23
That s the harsh judgement i see time and time again unfortunately. i think i will renounce the book.

Hawkkf
20-04-2014, 19:04
This book will need an errata to fix the platoon reference and the gets-hot on the volley gun at the least. Unbuyable camo netting and heavy stubbers will most likely be ignored. The cheaper valkyrie heavy bolters will probably also be ignored. The poor fluff should be ignored. The best we can hope for is that this codex will get a new version in a few years when they decided to add new models for commissars and/or assasins.

ConfessorTurpin
20-04-2014, 20:17
I actually enjoy the codex. It may have been over-priced, but the fluff is pretty cool. While it certainly is a highly specialized list, the list is dangerous. My thoughts on it are this:

1. Orders: "Elimination Protocol" works for all weapons... ALL. Against vehicles- rending plasma guns, rending grenade launchers, rending melta guns (gives a potential armor roll of 17 beyond 6"), etc. While not very reliable, when those 6's are rolled, ouch!
2. I was surprised at the lack of choices, but then the AM came out and it's online with that dex though I would've like some unique special issue wargear.
3. MTCS I'm confused... Upgrade the scion with a medi-pak and he retains his HSLG yet the model clearly has a HSLPistol. Hmmm.
4. Taurox is fast and nasty. The augur option from the VE is pricey but nice.
5. Real strength of the dex are the formations/dataslates. Airborne assault formation is ridiculous. So many buffs to the unit when deploying from the Valks- re-roll scatter, TL, split fire + whatever order is given = equals really bad day for opponent.

Lord Cook
20-04-2014, 20:53
5. Real strength of the dex are the formations/dataslates. Airborne assault formation is ridiculous. So many buffs to the unit when deploying from the Valks- re-roll scatter, TL, split fire + whatever order is given = equals really bad day for opponent.

Sorry, where are these included? Are they printed, or available separately, or online, etc.? Thanks.

The Emperor
20-04-2014, 21:13
Sorry, where are these included? Are they printed, or available separately, or online, etc.? Thanks.

They're in the back of the book. One Formation is deployed from Valkyrie's, the other is deployed from Taurox Prime's.

Ironbone
20-04-2014, 21:49
Yes, codex includes 2 formations, things that so far were "dataslate only". Airborne assoult one is indeed quite devastating upon arrival, but is very expernsive as well ( 820 pts without any upgrades and with minimal squads ).

Zanzibarthefirst
20-04-2014, 22:25
I'm quite tempted with both formations plus an inquisitor in either a valkyrie or chimera for the respective formations. A strong cc squad should compliment the MT.

Starchild
20-04-2014, 23:20
I'm quite tempted with both formations plus an inquisitor in either a valkyrie or chimera for the respective formations. A strong cc squad should compliment the MT.

Is an Inquisitor allowed to join the Commissar and Command Squad in one of the vehicles before the formation arrives from reserve?

The Emperor
20-04-2014, 23:24
I think he means the Inquisitor and his henchmen bring their own transport.

Zanzibarthefirst
20-04-2014, 23:29
Is an Inquisitor allowed to join the Commissar and Command Squad in one of the vehicles before the formation arrives from reserve?

I couldn't say for sure but I'd say that all the normal rules for allied characters joining transports would apply.

Starchild
20-04-2014, 23:30
I think he means the Inquisitor and his henchmen bring their own transport.

Understood, but for those who won't/can't shell out the ducats for yet another vehicle, is this possible?

ConfessorTurpin
21-04-2014, 02:28
The formations have to be used 'as is' in terms of adding more vehicles/units. You could conceivably field two formations in a 1850-2000pt. force. BUT, seeing as these units must begin in reserve, definitely going to need something on table.

Other than this, these units can have characters added to them just as every other unit can. Again, just make sure there is something survivable on the table to bring in these reserves.

The Emperor
21-04-2014, 03:21
Understood, but for those who won't/can't shell out the ducats for yet another vehicle, is this possible?

Nope. Formations are treated just like Allied Detachments, so even if the army the Formation comes from is Battle Brothers with your Primary Detachment, you still can't ride in their Dedicated Transports.

Zanzibarthefirst
21-04-2014, 09:56
Nope. Formations are treated just like Allied Detachments, so even if the army the Formation comes from is Battle Brothers with your Primary Detachment, you still can't ride in their Dedicated Transports.

I just wish the inquisition codex included the rules for autocannon turrets :( or even got updated to include the rules for a taurox.

Strike Swiftly
04-10-2015, 22:18
Just found this thread. Posted a few questions over at Bolter and Chain Sword but didn't get a good response.

1.it is possible to run a 4th ED Storm Troopers: ?

2. Are the Storm Troopers/Kasrkins/Tempestus Scions the same? Just different Molds?

3. Would I be using the new Tempestus Scions Codex?

Yes I am a older player (Armageddon 3rd War), I love the look of the Previous Storm Troopers, but the Tempestus Scions for me personally look like they have just stepped out from a Castle with the Knight Torso plate.

Ironbone
06-10-2015, 00:58
1.it is possible to run a 4th ED Storm Troopers: ?
You mean models or rules ? Model are perfectly fine. Rules, well, anything from 4th ed is preety much outdated, unless pited against something useing rules from similar period.


2. Are the Storm Troopers/Kasrkins/Tempestus Scions the same? Just different Molds?
More or less so, but in core they are the same, elite guard military unit.


3. Would I be using the new Tempestus Scions Codex?
Well, if you think about mostly stormtroopers army, it's still most actual source of rules. Alternative is either useing IG codex ( wich have almost the same rules about Scions ), or some sort of "count-as" army.