PDA

View Full Version : dwarf organ gun question



scourge66
12-04-2014, 04:54
hi, im a dark elf payer and my main rival atm is a new dwarf player, not new to the game he has other armies also. currently he playing the new book with two dwarf organ guns with several engineers, this seams to make him reroll to hit on 2's kill on 2's. with rerolls of the a artillery dice. apparently there is no -1 long range or multiple shot modifiers, is this correct?

He plays In the corner with 6 units of thunders there is no way Ive been able to get close, these two guns on there own have been slaughtering me every game. hate the entrenched rule with every fibre of my being.

Necronartum
12-04-2014, 07:41
Without revealing the entire rules for an Organ Gun, I can advise as follows.

A misfire is -1 to hit.
Two misfires are a misfire.
Modifiers for long range are not ignored by the Organ Gun.
The Organ Gun suffers no modifier's for multiple shots.
Unless he takes Burloksson, normal Master Engineers do not allow re-rolls to hit.
Master Engineers are BS4 and one warmachine per shooting phase can use his BS (nominated at the START of the shooting phase). In addition, he may re-roll one artillery dice of his choosing (this can be, but is not limited to misfires - he must accept the second result).

Without knowing his list, it is difficult to know what he is doing wrong outside of the above. I would suggest that (as I do), if you find that something seems broken - ask to see the rules for that unit. It is the only way to be certain. It is not rude. It is courtesy on his part - after all, if hes got nothing to hide right?....

WLBjork
12-04-2014, 08:22
Pretty much what Necronartum says.

Organ Guns do *not* have the multiple shots special rule, so no modifiers there.

It needs a special character to succeed at a roll to gain re-roll to hit on *one* warmachine.

There is no mechanism for the Organ Gun to gain re-roll to wound.

scourge66
12-04-2014, 14:51
thanks guys, any suggestions on taking them out?! other than comet of casandora like a SOB, because dark elves can do that now!!!

Knifeparty
12-04-2014, 15:09
Take a level 4 Sorceress on a dark pegasus with the cloak of Twilight and run up and 6 dice cast pit of shades and watch 2/3rds of his gun line disappear. Then punch him in the nuts for taking a gun line and never play him again.

HurrDurr
12-04-2014, 15:42
It sounds like he may have more than one engineer on a warmachine, is that supported or refuted in the rules?

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2014, 16:44
It sounds like he may have more than one engineer on a warmachine, is that supported or refuted in the rules?

There doesn't seem to be anything preventing it.
Each engineer can only entrench a single machine, but there isn't that restriction on the other abilities, so it does seem possible to use two engineers to allow a re-roll of both artillery dice the organ gun uses to fire. It'll benefit from their ballistic skill as well, I'm not sure any other machine would actually get any benefit from multiple nearby engineers.
Either way, it's an expensive waste of points.

The easiest solution to castling dwarf players is to do the following
-Purple sun, you just need to touch the machine and it's automatically dead, plus dwarves have a crummy initiative so any touched are also likely to die off.
-Take 4 bolt throwers and gun him down from outside his own range
-Just don't play him (OPs opponent sounds like a cheating liar anyway)

Thriller
12-04-2014, 18:28
Offer him multiple targets to fire at. He will not have more than 2 Organ guns anyway, so choke him with chaff, catch him and destroy him.

Also, what theunwahtedbeing said above.

Malagor
12-04-2014, 19:02
Sounds like 1 runes of accuracy on each organ gun and one engineer on each of them giving them a 2+ to hit. So except the long range thing which in that case shame on the dwarf player.
Other then that, it seemed like Unwantedbeing stated to be a bit of a waste of points having 2 engineer.
And as stated, destroy him with magic.

scourge66
12-04-2014, 19:06
Take a level 4 Sorceress on a dark pegasus with the cloak of Twilight and run up and 6 dice cast pit of shades and watch 2/3rds of his gun line disappear. Then punch him in the nuts for taking a gun line and never play him again.

this made me laugh hard!!!


It sounds like he may have more than one engineer on a warmachine, is that supported or refuted in the rules?

he has the SC engineer + 2 normal



The easiest solution to castling dwarf players is to do the following
-Purple sun, you just need to touch the machine and it's automatically dead, plus dwarves have a crummy initiative so any touched are also likely to die off.
-Take 4 bolt throwers and gun him down from outside his own range
-Just don't play him (OPs opponent sounds like a cheating liar anyway)

I took 4 bolt throwers 6 to hit with entranced 5 turns none hit or EVER, thus my eternal hatred for that rule. unfortunately at he one of two othr people at that club but I do play at another and some of them are about to pick up a gun line too.



Offer him multiple targets to fire at. He will not have more than 2 Organ guns anyway, so choke him with chaff, catch him and destroy him.

Also, what theunwahtedbeing said above.

most of my army is chaff 2 units of dark riders, scouts, warlocks, knights, and pegs. 5 units of thunders an 2 organ guns make shot work of all of them. it I some times get a peg lord or mori in there and they chomp through his line.

thanks guys good stuff. I will try it out

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2014, 19:28
I took 4 bolt throwers 6 to hit with entranced 5 turns none hit or EVER, thus my eternal hatred for that rule. unfortunately at he one of two othr people at that club but I do play at another and some of them are about to pick up a gun line too.

You shoot the engineer standing next to the war machine you want to hit.

1. The Engineer isn't entrenched and doesn't have any negative modifier to hit
2. He get's a look out sir that he can't avoid using, each 4+ sends that hit onto the war machine
3. Each fail means you get to potentially wound an engineer!

You do still need a 6 to wound the damned organ gun but it becomes easier to hit the thing by doing that.
Obviously if the engineer is standing behind the machine then he's going to be just as hard to hit, but a bit of clever deployment should let you get an angle on the guy.

Spells work better obviously.
Failing that, just shoot up the handgunners and then saturate the area with targets for those organ guns.

bigbiggles
13-04-2014, 07:16
Well that sure is a quirky way around the entrenchment

Necronartum
13-04-2014, 07:45
Most decent Dwarf players will give their Engineers a 2++ against shooting and magic missiles.

By the way, a Dwarf gunline is a good tactic to employ. People hate on it, but you don't hear me complaining about everyone rushing across the board each game. It is simply a matter of perspective.

For the OP. Relying on a single Purple Sun to work on IF is pretty silly. Same as relying on magic. Cloak of Twilight or not. That sorceress on a pegasus is likely to die on her own against the weight of 10-20 Organ Gun shots. Additionally, any Dwarf player worth their salts will have a couple of Runesmiths with Spelleaters ready to eat that badboy the second you don't get IF. Take the magic for sure, but also utilise small flyer units like Harpies and/or a Master on a pegasus to make target priority difficult. 4x5 Harpy units will force at least that number of units to be spent shooting them. Or they are likely to lose their warmachines. All the while, march your army right up the middle.

Ultimately, gunlines are hard to defeat, which is why they get so much hate.

PS: "It is SO boring that people run across the board to attack me each game. God. If anyone plays that way, they need to be punched in the nuts." :P

scourge66
13-04-2014, 12:37
thanks for the opposing point of view. I haven't used harpies in years, ive only just dusted dark riders off. good to get my old models back on the table. im trying not to talyor a list (kinda) and adapt my all comers build. i fell like warhammer is a combat based game first, magic got bumped up this ed but dwarfs gun lines circumvent the traditional style of play, yes empire wood eves and some others can do it too but not as well. some people have to march up because that's the game and that's how it was designed, and yes gun lines are how dwarfs were designed, its fluffy and changes up the game making it a challenge, but I feel like we're just playing 40k and I brought a sword to a gunfight.

whats with all the nut punching?! to parody an old saying "a nut punch for a nut punch leaves the whole world impotent!!!"

Montegue
13-04-2014, 13:04
Dark Elves are gunline armies, they just move around the board and do the same thing (avoid combat, etc) until the Witch Elves win for them. I don't have much sympathy for a DE player complaining at all that they're being out shot.

If he wants to invest in two organ guns and enough Master Engineers to make that work, that's fine. You have enough skirmishing war machine hunters and Warlock units to basically autowin if you want to. Spam the toughness debuff and the insanity of doom bolt every turn and laugh and laugh as you blow off the misfire results. This shouldn't be hard for you to overcome. Cover now affects the shots, so use terrain as a screen for your warlock units. Thunderers will die to a stiff breeze (little more rugged now with Shieldwall). You can pick up your points there, if you want, again relying on brolocks to do the heavy lifting until Witch Elves sweep the board. There's literally no single unit in the entire dwarf book that can stop a tricked out unit of With Elves, and there's no magic phase more deadly to a gunline than a Dark Elf magic phase. Brolock for the win.

scourge66
13-04-2014, 13:12
wow, ok, thanks for your input.

scourge66
13-04-2014, 13:38
Dark Elves are gunline armies, they just move around the board and do the same thing (avoid combat, etc) until the Witch Elves win for them. I don't have much sympathy for a DE player complaining at all that they're being out shot.


wow, ok, thanks for your input. but I would appreciate it if you weren't so aggressive with your comments, I played them three times got chewed up each time, just looking for some advice, im not looking to be harassed. i could rely in kind but that's a waist of time. witch elves with a 5++ with a cob don't stand much of a chance taking 20-30 s5 hits per turn. that's if the two cannons does't take out the CoB first. even with screeners its not a auto win. your right about skirmishers, warlocks hiding behind dark riders have had success getting Into his lines previously but only once so far. dark elves are hardly gun line If your using 20 witch elves, fc, razor stand, with CoB, witchbrew. that's a least a 600 point sink in a 2k game.

theunwantedbeing
13-04-2014, 14:01
What else does this dwarf list contain, and what points value is it?

So far all we really know is that it's got
2 organ guns, backed by at least 1 engineer each
2 cannons (presumably backed by an engineer each)
6 units of thunderers of an unknown size

What else?

scourge66
13-04-2014, 14:16
I don't know dwarfs units characters all that well ile ask him for a list and post, but my current list is:

Lords


Level 4 Sorceress

Dark Pegg

Channel Staff
Cloak of twilight


Heros


Maser

BSB

SDC,Cold one

Enchanted Shield,

Dawn stone

Sword of Might


Core


10 Dark Shards x2

Shields


6 Dark Riders x2

Mus, Shields, xbows


Special


5 Knights

FC, Standard of Swiftness (+1M)


Hydra x2

Flame breath


Bolt Throwers x4


Rare


Warlocks x5

Knifeparty
13-04-2014, 14:18
Dark Elves are gunline armies, they just move around the board and do the same thing (avoid combat, etc) until the Witch Elves win for them. I don't have much sympathy for a DE player complaining at all that they're being out shot.

If he wants to invest in two organ guns and enough Master Engineers to make that work, that's fine. You have enough skirmishing war machine hunters and Warlock units to basically autowin if you want to. Spam the toughness debuff and the insanity of doom bolt every turn and laugh and laugh as you blow off the misfire results. This shouldn't be hard for you to overcome. Cover now affects the shots, so use terrain as a screen for your warlock units. Thunderers will die to a stiff breeze (little more rugged now with Shieldwall). You can pick up your points there, if you want, again relying on brolocks to do the heavy lifting until Witch Elves sweep the board. There's literally no single unit in the entire dwarf book that can stop a tricked out unit of With Elves, and there's no magic phase more deadly to a gunline than a Dark Elf magic phase. Brolock for the win.

Well it's actually a case of, I really want to have a fun game rather than just take models out of my case just to take half of them off on the second turn because they've been obliterated by 6 war machines. If I wanted to have boring game of guns lines I'd play 40K. There's a reason why 40K sucks right now, and I play fantasy for fun and to have a good time.

Also that's not really a Dark Elf gun line, thats just intelligent playing.

scourge66
13-04-2014, 14:43
I would agree with that statement. but I guess half the battle with dwarfs is getting there.

theunwantedbeing
13-04-2014, 15:40
Level 4 Sorceresson Dark Pegasus
Channelling Staff, Cloak of Twilight

BSB Master on Cold One
Sea Dragon Cloak
Enchanted Shield, Dawn stone, Sword of Might

2x 10 Dark Shards with Shields
2x 6 Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows, Shields and a Musician

5 Knights with Full Command
Standard of Swiftness
2x Hydra with Fiery breath
4x Bolt Throwers

5 Warlocks

Total 1978, you're a bit short of 2k.

Your BSB Master really should have heavy armour, which with the cold one and sea dragon cloak puts his save at 1+ so no need for a sheild.
You can swap the Sword of Might for a Halberd, same net ability just 25pts less magical items and 4pts more on equipment. He can have a ranged weapon then.
The Knights don't really need full command, or the swiftness banner. You could drop the musician, champion and magical banner for a war banner.
Your Darkshards could be bigger as well, 10 isn't that useful a number (I guess that is all you have though).

I can see why the Dwarf list would cause issues though, you haven't got the ability to swamp him with targets and you've only got 4 things that can really out range his organ guns.
The cannons would be a separate issue, the hydra's are likely the first target after the mage is found to be toting a 3+ ward save and you'll invariably have to move into range of the organ guns to get at those cannons with a lot of magic.

Althwen
13-04-2014, 16:06
Well it's actually a case of, I really want to have a fun game rather than just take models out of my case just to take half of them off on the second turn because they've been obliterated by 6 war machines. If I wanted to have boring game of guns lines I'd play 40K. There's a reason why 40K sucks right now, and I play fantasy for fun and to have a good time.

Also that's not really a Dark Elf gun line, thats just intelligent playing.





Well it's actually a case of, I really want to have a fun game rather than just take models out of my case just to take half of them off on the second turn because they've been obliterated by 6 war machines. If I wanted to have boring game of guns lines I'd play 40K. There's a reason why 40K sucks right now, and I play fantasy for fun and to have a good time.

Also that's not really a Dark Elf gun line, thats just intelligent playing.

Exactly my feeling on 40k atm.
Also if anything I feel like DE are actually less shooty than they were in their previous incarnation barring the bolt throwers... but unlike cannons and catapults I've never lost a game to bolt throwers.

To OP you have my sympathy but I don't think any gaming group should allow anyone to field such a list for more than a couple of times and then kindly request he at least drop the SC.
It gets rather boring facing the same list every time no matter the list.
It's why my avoidance WE only make an appearance once every month or so.

scourge66
13-04-2014, 16:08
thanks that's good advice, I like the changes of on the master, and the full command on knights is interesting. ile have to recalculate the points cost, keep coming up with 1994. I have 40 crossbows ile try to work in some more. normally I have three units of 10 and 45 warrior bunker for the level 4 on foot. I took out my scouts for more bolt throwers

scourge66
13-04-2014, 16:19
Exactly my feeling on 40k atm.
Also if anything I feel like DE are actually less shooty than they were in their previous incarnation barring the bolt throwers... but unlike cannons and catapults I've never lost a game to bolt throwers.

To OP you have my sympathy but I don't think any gaming group should allow anyone to field such a list for more than a couple of times and then kindly request he at least drop the SC.
It gets rather boring facing the same list every time no matter the list.
It's why my avoidance WE only make an appearance once every month or so.

I never like to ask people to change there lists or not play a unit, I think that defeats the game. buggerd If you do, buggerd If you don't. I haven't played all the army books yet, as my fantasy playing group is pretty small, 4-6 players on a good day. but it fells like fantasy is still balanced to some existent. I hope see more wood elves with the new book next month. this is my first list with bolt throwers In 5 years

scourge66
13-04-2014, 17:03
What else does this dwarf list contain, and what points value is it?

So far all we really know is that it's got
2 organ guns, backed by at least 1 engineer each
2 cannons (presumably backed by an engineer each)
6 units of thunderers of an unknown size

What else?

hes sent me a new rough list: 3 master engineers 4 x about 14 thunderer squads 1 lord an iron breaker squad 2 organ guns and 3 cannons about 2000ish points

theunwantedbeing
13-04-2014, 18:38
hes sent me a new rough list: 3 master engineers 4 x about 14 thunderer squads 1 lord an iron breaker squad 2 organ guns and 3 cannons about 2000ish points

1907pts without any upgrades if the Ironbreaker unit has 20 models.
Not a lot of room for upgrades at all, which is suspicious as hell if your opening post was accurate with your claim of his organ guns hitting and wounding on a 2+ with a re-roll.

No magic defence either.

scourge66
13-04-2014, 19:41
yea, this one is a new list, its just what he wants to play next, im dont think this is a final draft. I don't know the dwarf book all that well point cost least of all. when we play ile double check his list just to make sure.

Montegue
14-04-2014, 02:12
wow, ok, thanks for your input. but I would appreciate it if you weren't so aggressive with your comments, I played them three times got chewed up each time, just looking for some advice, im not looking to be harassed. i could rely in kind but that's a waist of time. witch elves with a 5++ with a cob don't stand much of a chance taking 20-30 s5 hits per turn. that's if the two cannons does't take out the CoB first. even with screeners its not a auto win. your right about skirmishers, warlocks hiding behind dark riders have had success getting Into his lines previously but only once so far. dark elves are hardly gun line If your using 20 witch elves, fc, razor stand, with CoB, witchbrew. that's a least a 600 point sink in a 2k game.


I didn't intend to be aggressive. However, you have one the strongest books in the game, and access to many tools dwarfs really struggle to deal with. Magic and shooting should win you the game. You have access to fantastic lords, and dwarfs can't shut down spells anything like they used to. If he's only taking blocks of thunderers, you've got him in close combat, too. He can't move his thunderers because they're move or shoot. Make sure you're playing with enough terrain on the board as well.

T10
14-04-2014, 09:43
You shoot the engineer standing next to the war machine you want to hit.
1. The Engineer isn't entrenched and doesn't have any negative modifier to hit


He only needs to be 50% covered by the warmachine in order to benefit from hard cover (intervening model).

Of course, he has to stay 1" away from the warmachine since it's a different unit, so he might have a hard time hiding from all enemy shooting units.

-T10

TheKingInYellow
14-04-2014, 17:37
Don't forget, if the Engineer is within 3" of a Warmachine he gets a Look Out Sir.

Rakariel
15-04-2014, 11:54
I`m not sure if you can use different models or if you need to play with what you have but this is what I would take to counter your opponent. I am not relying on magic with this list, as I am famously unlucky with those essential double 6s when you really need them ;)

Lv4 with 4++ and LIFE
2x Masters on Peg, one with the CoT, the other with a RR 1+

4x 5 Dark Riders
35x Welfs
10x XBows

2x 5 Harpies
2x 7 Warlocks

Thats roughly 2000 points. You can put a Life Sorceress inside a unit of 10is XBows (to reach your core requirement of 500 points) and use her to replenish lost models and harden troops with FtS. Use the rest of the points to make a big unit of Welfs. With this setup you have so many chaff units which are on top of it fast as hell (fast cav, vanguard, fly) that you can easily swamp his warmachines in the second turn. In the meantime, two units of Warlocks will put a huge pressure on him, their magic is just borderline OP (you can use them to shoot the Ironbreakers aswell). Use terrain to your advantage and your troops will get there. You might lose some of your units but he can`t kill them all. And even if he concentrates on them (which he kinda has to) he is not shooting your Welfs and if those reach his Thunderers he is toast anyway.

While a Dwarf Gunline might be a problem and a strong (albeit boring) list, you have, especially as a DE player, alot of tools to get around that. Looking at your list I would definitly drop the Hydras and those few CoKs, they are just cannon fodder for those warmachines.

scourge66
15-04-2014, 12:15
that's a crazy list, no hydras?! so far out of my comfort zone, im looking forward to trying it. great advice every one thanks

Senor
15-04-2014, 12:43
Yes, that was mentioned... there is 50% change he won't make his 4++ LoS, but then the shot reflects to the cannon which can be wounded on a 6.