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biccat
12-04-2014, 20:34
This came up in a game earlier, just wanted to get some more opinions.

A unit of Knightly Order declares a charge against a unit of Night Goblins. They are 17" away. They roll 10 for a total of 17", making the charge.

When the Knights are 8" away, they stop and the Night Goblins release fanatics from the rear of their own unit, causing more than 25% wounds.

Unsurprisingly, the Night Goblins fail their panic test.

Here's where the issue comes up. Do the Night Goblins panic and flee, or do we resolve the charge first? We figured the Night Goblins fled, they turned tail and ran 10" away from the Fanatics.

Now the Knights are a further 18" away. Do they continue to complete the charge, or is it a failed charge? We figured the knights would keep pursuing, contacting the Night Goblins (now a 27" charge).

But first the Knights have to go through the Fanatics, taking 4d6 hits in the process (ouch). Fortunately, they didn't all die and passed their Leadership test, but if they failed, would they turn and run, or would we complete the charge first?

In the end, we moved the knights the full distance, contacted the (now fleeing) Night Goblins, and the knights made a free reform because they contacted a fleeing unit.

Sound like everything's correct?

Invincible Sword Goddess
12-04-2014, 22:07
That's a really crazy situation. Off the top of my head I can't think of any rules to help resolve this, and I can only imagine it would come down to either the "roll of for it" or the "player whose turn it is chooses the order of events" rules.

Piercefierce
13-04-2014, 00:27
What you did is correct... i think haha. You ignore movement distance once you have made a successful charge. You measure the closest point to closest point even if there is no physical way of contacting said point. For eg. if you are behind a building but can charge around it, you still measure to the closest point of the unit you wish to charge even if that model has no way of ever making base to base contact due to the building being in the way. Then you charge around the building and hit the other side of the unit (asuming you can contact the appropriate arc and only make one wheel as per the rules of charging) even if you didn't roll enough movement to get to that side. In some bizzare cirumstances you can charge like 30"! i've seen it happen. So i guess the same would apply to this situation because you have already successfully rolled the initial distance. If your knights had failed a ld test when charging due to the exrta 4d6 hits you would turn and run on the spot thus failing the charge (like normal? i think).

FatTrucker
13-04-2014, 06:28
Why did the night goblins release the fanatics from the rear making them go forward through their own unit?

I thought NG could be released from any point of the unit with the controlling player nominating the direction?

Treg Almighty
13-04-2014, 06:34
Why did the night goblins release the fanatics from the rear making them go forward through their own unit?

I thought NG could be released from any point of the unit with the controlling player nominating the direction?

This. As far as I know ngs wont take casualties from releasing their own fanatics.

Montegue
13-04-2014, 12:09
It's a cunning little trick. See, if you hold your ground, you take the hits from your own fanatics, but you are *guaranteed* that your enemy will take the full force of the Fanatics when they successfully charge you. So, you're trading a few points in goblins for a huge gain from all the fanatic hits before combat.

FatTrucker
13-04-2014, 17:53
Why not just release them from the front in front of the enemy chargers?

Bodysnatcher
13-04-2014, 21:38
Because that way the chance of the charging unit finishing their move on top of the fanatics is greatly increased. This doubles the number of hits effectively - which against knights is evil.

It does feel kind of against the spirit of the rules though...

theunwantedbeing
13-04-2014, 22:49
So you have to do this a particular way.

1. Charge is declared, the goblin unit says it'll stand
2. Chargers move, stop 8" away and then you send the fanatics individually through your own unit resolving the damage individually
3. Assuming more than 25% damage was caused, you immediately take the panic test when this is reached
4. The fanatic which caused the most casualties is the one you flee directly away from (roll off if one or more caused the most damage)
5. The chargers still have to try to reach the goblin unit and will continue on their charge move, suffering and resolving damage as they contact each fanatic individually

If you're rolling all the damage at once, you're not actually doing it correctly.
Same deal for when the charging unit contacts the fanatics, they don't run into all of them at once but one at a time (unless they do actually contact more than one fanatic at the exact same time).

dms505
14-04-2014, 01:03
Full charge reaction and its effects are resolved before charge is completed. If they move outside the range possible by the knights it immediately becomes a failed charge. The problem with that is they have already in most situations moved past the lowest dice roll. So they would probably have to stop immediately in my opinion because that is the best way to follow the failed charge rule..

biccat
14-04-2014, 13:31
Full charge reaction and its effects are resolved before charge is completed.

The charge reaction and effects were completed. Knights declared a charge, Night Goblins opted to hold.

dms505
14-04-2014, 14:03
But isn't the fanatic coming out a reaction to the charge and doesn't the fanatic interrupt the charge? Just because it's not a normal charge reaction doesn't mean it's not a charge reaction. I guess that's the part the screws up the base rules. Is there something in the FAQ that covers that?

Also if at any point during the charge, the target moves out of possible range why wouldn't it then become a failed charge? Unless by the rules of the fanatics it somehow states that they are "too far to stop" I would have to call this a roll off since there just aren't rules to go with this situation.

Also looking at the fanatics rules it does say the unit "may" then continue with it's move. Not "must" then continue with it's move so technically if it didn't want to hit 2 or 3 fanatics it could just stop at one. Not that they wouldn't still have a change at getting hit next turn but it's still an option.

biccat
14-04-2014, 18:22
But isn't the fanatic coming out a reaction to the charge

It is not a "charge reaction" as defined in the main rulebook. The only reactions are "Hold", "Stand and Shoot" and "Flee." There's nothing in the Fanatics rules that suggests "Release the Fanatics!" is any sort of a charge reaction.

and doesn't the fanatic interrupt the charge?

The Fanatic doesn't interrupt the charge. Models stop at 8", then continue.

Also if at any point during the charge, the target moves out of possible range why wouldn't it then become a failed charge?

Our rationale was that you only worry about the distance between units when deciding if the charge was successful or not. If the charge was failed, the unit may not have been able to get within 8" of the NG to release the fanatics.

Also looking at the fanatics rules it does say the unit "may" then continue with it's move. Not "must" then continue with it's move so technically if it didn't want to hit 2 or 3 fanatics it could just stop at one. Not that they wouldn't still have a change at getting hit next turn but it's still an option.

O&G p. 53 "Although chargers must complete their charge unless panicked"

FatTrucker
15-04-2014, 03:59
As another point, is releasing the fanatics in this way not covered by the not targeting friendly units stuff?
Obviously its not a shooting attack but seems fairly clearly against the spirit of the rules.

Is it reasonable to assume a unit of NG would deliberately target itself to take casualties?

Often it seems these game breaking rules situations only arise when players are doing things the rules were never intended to have to deal with.

Piercefierce
15-04-2014, 07:22
I can see a sneaky night goblin unit champ forcing fanatics through his own troops to cause more damage. More importantly, its in the rules. Personally i don't think this trick is that *******. The double great eagle charge fail thing is the worst haha.

The goblins can never flee out of "range". They might flee in such a way that the Knights would now have to wheel twice - causing them to fail charge. Distance however is ignored once the charge has started.

GreaseMonkey
15-04-2014, 11:54
Piercedierce got it, charge still counts if still legal ignoring range. The fanatics release is a very common NG tactic, arguably considered gamey but still legal and very well in touch with the OnG rulebook fluff where everything goblinoid has as many chances at destroying itself that getting destroyed. An experienced Bretonnian player should see that coming imho.

Sent from my C6506 using Tapatalk

Danny76
15-04-2014, 23:02
On a side note. My question is don't the knights take damage for contacting the fanatics as they charge, then more damage for ending on top of them? Or is it just your final position when you roll.
I thought it was as soon as you contact them, like if you chose to march right over and past them, you'd do it when you touched, not after they're on the other side..?

T10
16-04-2014, 08:35
The unit has to end its move over a Fanatic to "squash" it and to suffer the associated damage. Moving past and clear of the fanaticdosn not cause damage (except for moving into contact, of course).

Notice that there are to separate occurances of damage being dealt: first 1d6 for moving into contact, then 1d6 when "squashing". This is important (to the Fanatic) since it can theoretically kill/panic that small expendable unit before it has a chance to kill him. :)

Edit: Narp! No need to stop on top of the Fanatic anymore! Just make contact, take those 2d6 hits, and remove the model regardless.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
16-04-2014, 09:36
The unit has to end its move over a Fanatic to "squash" it and to suffer the associated damage.

That's the 7th edition Fanatic rules.
The 8th edition ones merely require moving into contact, and you're free to keep moving.

There's little reason to bother sending your fanatics through your own unit except to avoid rolling that 8+ which means they do only D6 hits but get to stay alive and potentially do more damage.

Invincible Sword Goddess
18-04-2014, 21:52
So I was thinking some more about this problem. I agree that the knights would catch and destroy the goblins regardless of how far they run. However, I don't know what would happen if they ran into a position where the knights couldn't contact them without making multiple wheels or a single wheel of over 90 degrees.

I imagine it would resolve in the same manner as a normal flee move, but I can't find any rules for what happens if you declare a charge, the enemy flees out of your arc as a response, and you can't / won't misdirect. The only thing I see like that in the BRB is the sidebar an declaring a charge and then later realizing it is illegal, which is both not what happened and does not have a single clear answer, rather several possible suggestions.

Does anyone have an FAQ / Page number for how to resolve units fleeing out of your charge arc?