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hiram
16-06-2006, 23:45
Just like it say folks, what do you as a veteran hobby community want from games workshop?

Please though do not revert to knee-jerk responses like "lower prices" or some other such preconditioned statement.

As thinking men and women that are capable of speaking for yourselves answer my little quandary, please?

Hiram

Sir_Turalyon
17-06-2006, 00:03
In case of 40k: decent, or, dare I say, great fluff in books and White Dwarf. At least enough to make new players know the worlds without diging for resources from former edition (as side effect, for new players these books will be interesting to read).

Good looking miniatures; not scraming "look! I ahve so many details as there could be scupulted possibly, in combination that does not amke any sense to make me look unrealistic". Less basing miniatures (any miniatures, especially bretonnian), on 2nd ed 40 artwork. Surrealic artwork = good, surrealic minis = bad, unless dfone only occasionaly.

Shadowheart
17-06-2006, 00:25
Please though do not revert to knee-jerk responses like "lower prices" or some other such preconditioned statement.

First of all I think you ought to explain what that's all about. You're asking us what we think, but only if it isn't certain things, simultaneously branding any such things as preconditioned knee-jerk responses. Now I've noticed such wholesale dismissal of arguements and those that put them forward getting more common on forums, but I don't see why anyone should even start a discussion under such conditions.

bertcom1
17-06-2006, 00:48
Models

Better quality assurance on models - less flash, misalignments and miscasts.

More genuine poseability - multipart models should fit together properly in more than one way. E.g. Hands moulded onto guns = bad.


Paints

Better consistency between batches.

Better coverage for certain colours. Needing 10 thin coats to get a colour right is not fun, when other colours only need 2 coats.


Rules

Less loopholes and more clarity.


Background material

Consistency and believeability.

pantherairsoft
17-06-2006, 01:25
a little more care taken on the production of models to avoid miscasts and overly bad mould lines... but most important, White Dwarf to be as informative, fresh and exciting as it used to be 10 years ago..

hiram
17-06-2006, 01:34
First of all I think you ought to explain what that's all about. You're asking us what we think, but only if it isn't certain things, simultaneously branding any such things as preconditioned knee-jerk responses. Now I've noticed such wholesale dismissal of arguements and those that put them forward getting more common on forums, but I don't see why anyone should even start a discussion under such conditions.

I want to avoid the 18 pages of "prices are to high" crap we have all seen it all over anyway so there is no need to repeat it here.

Besides from all of the threads i have read this one subject seems to be the most prevalent, as such I am curios to find out where where are going wrong with the community on a whole not just how our pocket book suffer.

What can be done to entice veteran hobbyists into the shops on game nights?
Not, "there are too many kids running around and i don't like kids, that is why i play any where but at a workshop store."

What has workshop done to hinder your hobby growth(exluding price raises) and what keep you from teaching the newer guys, not just younger guys? What makes the hobby fun for you?

Why is it so many "veterans" don't paint their armies and then complain about how the studio team paints the display models?

Honestly I don't get it. I've been playing workshop games since '94, as such it is safe to say that I am a vet and know what I am talking about from the "old days". I have also been working in a GW hobby center for almost three years now and I can not reconcile my love for the hobby from before I worked for them and the disdian that every one else feels for it.

just don't get it.

Shadowheart
17-06-2006, 03:03
What can be done to entice veteran hobbyists into the shops on game nights?
Not, "there are too many kids running around and i don't like kids, that is why i play any where but at a workshop store."

What if that's really what bothers people though? True, such complaints are annoying to read constantly, but how can you have a discussion about a subject when you're limiting what people can say about it? Sounds rather like the principle of GW's website polls.

There are two major things turning me off GW's games. First, there's their attitude towards gamers, which seems increasingly agressive. It's like you either love their stuff more than life itself, or you're a poor hobbyist. Because as they'd have it, GW is the hobby, or at least the greatest part of it.
Second, there's the fact that there will always be more fluff rewrites, rule changes, model updates and (yes) price hikes. I just find it discouraging that everything I read or buy now will be horribly outdated in a few years, or even months if I'm unlucky.

One specific change that rubbed me the wrong way was the whole C'tan background affair. For the sake of pushing one race, they basically said that the galaxy was, retroactively, their bitch. Knowing that, I pretty much lost interest in any new background and understood that if I were to enjoy the old stuff anymore I'd have to ignore what GW was doing now.
At some point or other I think most of us have aquired too much experience and baggage in GW's games to keep following them through their constant changes. You have to sort of drop out of the loop and try to make do with what you've got.

In recent years my focus as far as new stuff was concerned was on LotR, but that too seems to be going the wrong way entirely. I liked it because it was the movies (and later the books) transfered to miniature game format by some of the great skilled people working at GW. It seems like nowadays it's stuff that's more or less based on the books (and rather poorly so IMO). Doesn't help that the originally scenario-based game has been gradually turning into another pitched battle generator.

Crazy Harborc
17-06-2006, 03:27
Years of the usual complaints, the "knee-jerk responses" about prices, cutting back on the quanities in blisters and boxes...........ARE legitimate. The best way to prevent and or cut back on the "knee-jerk response" is to lessen the causes.....spiraling, regular, at least once a year price hikes. Then put the minies back in the boxes and blisters. Rules that encourage units to be 20 bodies then cutting back on box/blister contents to cause customers to "need" to buy to more boxes/blisters which means more/extra money to get up to the "recommended 20 bodies (or more) in core units.

Sorry, but that "knee-jerk response" comment IMHO is not the way to get a different reaction. Calling price complaint posts "crap".

Those kinds of statements says a lot to me about attitudes towards GW customers.

I am sorry for the rant...BUT.....To me, my complaints are NOT crap or knee-jerk. They are about what appears to be a don't give a s**** attitude at GW. A company I have supported and bought the products of for over 28 years.

I am NOT trying to flame anyone. But 'knee-jerk and crap' comments really are a bit much. For me and a fair number of other posters past and present it isn't knee-jerk or crap to object to getting less for more.

Again sorry for the rant.

Zzarchov
17-06-2006, 04:03
I think the end result is the increasing switch, from marketting to adults which draws in kids (in much the same way kids are drawn to other non-child hobbies, from hunting to Roleplaying games) to marketting to kids which is pushing away entrenched older gamers.

GW games have always drawn in young kids, but they were always an exception rather than a rule, at least when I was young and started. There were 2-3 kids under 16, a few between 16-18, and 10-15 adults of various ages.
Now the numbers are different, its not the same game environment, they rewrite the fluff to take out objectionable things, really "clean" up the image into definate "good guy bad guy" camps more than they used to (its only going one direction from here)

Think of it in terms of another hobby. If you started a paintball league when there were maybe one or two kids with a keen interest, and mostly college kids and older, alot of ex military types and you play accordingly.

Awhile later the Paintball field changes its image and hosts birthday parties for screaming 12 year olds who (like your average 12 year old, as compared to one trying to fit in with adults) acts like a 12 year old and general throws a fit, refuses to stop shooting when he's hit, etc etc etc.

You bought alot of gear so you'll play for awhile, a little longer in case it gets better cause you used to have so much fun, but eventually you'll stop, its become a childs game and that doesn't intrerest you.

Ardathair
17-06-2006, 04:04
What has workshop done to hinder your hobby growth(exluding price raises) and what keep you from teaching the newer guys, not just younger guys? What makes the hobby fun for you?

If you are refering to GW stores, not all hobbyshops, I would say the attitude towards older minis. The last few times I have gone to GW stores employees have accused me of using non-GW minis, in each case the minis they were refering to were oop models. Even though I still got to play having to go through an arguement, and defend my army everytime gets old, which is why I don't go to GW stores anymore. Wonder how my army will be recieved at Gamesday.

I don't know if this is true everywhere, but every gamer I've met who learned to play at a GW store has been a power gamer. Granted there are many power gamers out there who learned to play elsewhere, but that type of consitancy has created a (so far deserved) stereo type of players from GW stores.

I like models with detail, but I like to put some of the detail on myself, army specific markings/badges, unit designations, etc. The "Highly Detailed" models being released now often are too clutered with brick-a-brack and baubles that I have to file them off, or use older models which aren't as cluttered. (see above reguarding the latter)

Smoking Frog
17-06-2006, 04:09
All I want to see:

WD to retain some of its former glory. I don't mind that it's a big expensive catalogue, just so long as there's good stories to read, tactics articles that actually tell you tactics, rather than the blinking obvious, and more painting and terrain guides. I'm sure there are kids out there who play who want their armies to come close to 'Eavy Metal...

I have no complaints about GW staff. They seem friendly enough to me, though it just may be my area, since I sometimes hear "horror" stories.

Pricing. I have no issues paying the money itself since I'm a rich bastard anyway, but what I do have concerns about are price versus quality, price versus quantity, and the overall prices for the average hobbyist who doesn't have money hanging out his butt. Firstly, while the quality of most products is good, don't get me wrong about that, there is still an unhealthy amount of "flash" on a fair number of models, and usually in delicate places where you will destroy detail if you try to remove it. I really don't want to pay $65 AUD for a Fire Prism whose turret is mis-aligned and shaving the flash off will take away the detail from the model. Then there's quantity, whereby I pay $65 AUD for a 5 man Seer Council, and then $65 AUD for a 5 man Terminator squad. One's metal, other's plastic, both make 5 models. Then the average hobbyist doesn't have a limitless reserve of cash for this, so it simply compounds to their own procrastination. Rather than going, "OK, I have $20 I'll go in and buy a blister pack or two and a few paints, see what happens", they are going, "OK, I have $20, I can't afford to get a Command Section, ok, I can't get any Heroes or Lords, alright, what can I get... OK, I'll go buy some junk somewhere else, a used computer game will do."

I have a few more things to add, but I need to go chase some chicks... Mr El'Johnson is getting annoyed.

hiram
17-06-2006, 06:44
keep them coming guys.
I am trying to get a feel for the community on a whole.
As far as the price issue goes I don't care to hear ir because it is said often that it is fact. I may work for GW but it still gets hard to explain away a $25 avatar. Workshop is expensive nothing you or I can do about that right now. What I am trying to do here is learn what makes you the vets tick and what they would want to see done. And knee-jerk reactions are just that "I've seen this written eight millions so thats what i'll say". Kinda reminds me whats coming out of the capitol right now, a lot problems and a lot of blame but nrither side wanting or willing to figure out how or why it is broken.

Ultimatly I want to know why you all seem to hate this hobby you so love?

Shadowheart
17-06-2006, 09:12
We don't, leastways not as far as I can see. Do you get a lot of people saying "damnable miniature wargaming", "bloody model painting" or stuff of that sort? I mean, other then when they're frustrated with losing a game or trying to paint eyes.

Damien 1427
17-06-2006, 09:18
Specialist Games to get more love, as well as a bit more focus on "veteran" gamers.

In essence, just bring back The Citadel Journal.

ArtificerArmour
17-06-2006, 10:37
I'd have to go with lower prices. Though they have published the rules for all the specialist games on the websites. That's what I like to see.

Some guy (UK)
17-06-2006, 11:47
I wouldn't call myself a Vet., but I would like these things:

More sensible management- they seem to have this "Lalalalalala I'm not listening to you attitude"- example is WD. Listen to the comments people make on your products. It may not represent all of your customer base (online comments), but it will most likely be the trend for the majority.

WD- I only started reading at 286, but there is a drastic difference to the quality then, and the quality now. I won't say any more on this.

The 'GW hobby'- what infact they should say, is that they are a hobby store, for the hobby of wargamming, and not have this sort of 'OMG!!! W3R TeH ON1Y WARgAmMiNg C0mPaNy in Teh World!!!!!1 feel about them. The way I see it is like when someone says don't think about such a thing. The automatic reaction is too think about it :)

Prices- no knee jerk reaction here- but they are kind of extreme. Yes, I can still afford them, but less models at a time. If they keep rising, I will just resort to online discount stores and Ebay. Nothing will come of anyone's plea though for 'fairer' prices though- GW, at the end of the day, are after our dosh, and if they think higher prices will make them more profit, they will do that.

Minatures- The Vostroyan models were astonishing- hardly no flash lines on them. Keep this quality on the rest of your models please. Make the battleforces all in a box- i.e give some sort of command, so that a whole army can be assembled from the box for 50 quid, with no extras needing to be purchased.

That's all I can think of right now.

Later, Some Guy

violenceha
17-06-2006, 12:04
More support for specialist games, more new miniatures for blood bowl. Really GW you can stick your 'global campaigns' up your ****, nothing beats a weekend of blood bowl with your mates.

Hashut's Li'l Helper
17-06-2006, 12:57
1. I want new rules.

2. I want coherent rules.

3. I want Interesting Official varients that will not be taken away on a whim (cult of ulric storm of chaos et al)

4. I want GW to cease assuming that its players would rather dice for a confusing rule than have an online or printed errata. (thats just stupid)

5. I want prices to come down.

6. I want specialist games to get more support.

7. I want LOTR to get less support (of course if it's supporting itself then I'm talking out of my butt)

8. I wan't to be just as exited about the new white dwarfs as my 8 year old child is. (I guess I'm no longer the target audience)

9.I want a chaos dwarf book

10. I want external playtesting back

11. I want a steel cage deathmatch between doc grostnik, and trench raider

Forgotmytea
17-06-2006, 13:02
More support for specialist games, more new miniatures for blood bowl. Really GW you can stick your 'global campaigns' up your ****, nothing beats a weekend of blood bowl with your mates.
:D Well, Necromunda/Inquisitor/Gorkamorka in my case, but still, I concur.

What do I want? Well...

I know you said you didn't want to hear this, and I know nothing we say will make any difference, but anyway: lower prices. The trouble is, GW seems to be marketing itself at a younger audience rather than us veteran gamers, and as such we are sidelined. I must admit I've already abandoned the front line of GW, much as I love the staff, and fallen back to eBay - the prices were advancing too quickly, sir! (Got a load of Dark Eldar models and bits including 2 Incubi earlier for only £2.79 :))
White Dwarf seems to be following the trend of the new audience. I've been reading since 250, and used to wait with eager anticipation for the whole month for WD. Now, I haven't bothered to resubscribe, and while I'll occasionally go and buy 1 I like the look of, most of the time Warseer, Specialist Games Forum and TWF provides the rumours, well-painted models, etc.
Good scuplts. The possessed actually need to be recalled, put into a huge industrial-size compressor, and then burnt :evilgrin:. Now the Vostroyans are nice, and from what I've heard with no flash - more models like that would be good. Not too overcluttered, but nicely scuplted all the same (Gosh, that's a thin line I'm asking you to walk! :p)
Fluff. Good, solid, old fluff. Storm of Chaos was, if you'll pardon me saying so, rather badly written at the end as all the heroes lined up to take it in turns to beat Archon.
As Hashut's helper said, WE WANT CHAOS DWARFS!!! =D

-Forgotmytea

Wonderdog
17-06-2006, 13:16
Things I'd like to see:-

1. Revitalise support for Specialist games

2. Use those new digital laser scanners and computerised mould cutters to re-issue revised versions of Spacehulk, warhammer quest etc. Recut Spacehulk, WHQ, Man O War in 15mm (significantly reducing cost). Support these with a series of expansions containing new rules, card sheets, and a sprue or two of15mm models. See new thread...

3. Get that "ultra-detailed" 40k supplement out - aim it at proper "skirmish" level 40k - i.e. 5-30 models a side.

4. Cut LOTR from white dwarf - issue it as a seperate magazine. Rather than bolstering core cross sales, its now hindering them by crippling the monthly magazine.

5. For the love of god, rationalise your prices, or at least reconsider your stance on "promotions" (3 for 2 etc). GW stuff is no longer a "pocket money" purchase, and it even gives us salary earners pause for though.

6. Proper ongoing army development. Sit down and plan out a draft format for every race for an edition to ensure compliance. Take a year to do so if needbe.

7. Re-start a monthly "Chapter Approved" and the "Warhammer Chronicles" section in White Dwarf. Actually... this deserves its own thread....

Oh, theres plenty more, but its saturday afternoon and I cant be assed :D

Hlokk
17-06-2006, 14:32
Please though do not revert to knee-jerk responses like "lower prices" or some other such preconditioned statement.

Well, Lower prices.

Think about it, every similarly priced product in direct and indrect competition has managed to come down in general price in the same time GW's products keep on rising.

ie: PS2 games started at £40, they now retail for around £30
a battleforce started at £40 and is now £50

A regiment boxed set started at £12 and is now £18
A CD started around £20 and now usually retail new for about £15

Its madness.

Also, more innovation. Not the same re-hashing of old armies. Get it right the first time and leave it alone like Warmachine or Mongoose. I'm sick to the back teeth of dwarfs and skaven and every other WHFB army which has been around since the dawn of (this) man. Invest in decent play testing and get it right so theres no need to keep on re-inventing the wheel. Then release NEW stuff, new races, new armies, not recycled versions of old ones.

If new stuff needs to be added, put things either in WD as a pull out or PDF them on the net.

Akronas
17-06-2006, 14:51
(This is my own wishlist... I'll allow myself to dream a bit)

GW, you need to go back to your roots!

1) Metal, metal and more metal!!! This is what Citadel is all about. Bring back the best golden age sculpts. And produce modern models that are inspired by these.

2) Toss those generic brown or red blisters. Every range should have a colourful and specially designed cards, Include stats with every blister (just like Rackham).

3) All army lists (plus variants) in ONE big book.

4) WHFB is a mass combat rule with a skirmish addendum tacked on. I think both should be totally integrated.

5) More focus on scenario and GM-led games.

Akronas

Chuffy
17-06-2006, 16:28
Lower prices (HA! SCREW YOU!), or at least no more price rises. It's getting pretty ridiculous now GW, I have big problems paying £18 for a regiment set, if it goes up to £20 you can kiss this customer goodbye. Not that I can't afford these things, but it's the principle of the thing.

And if prices are going to be so high make sure the quality of the stuff you're selling is high aswell. I am kind of talking about sculpting and design, but I'm mainly talking about excessive mould lines and flash. I brought some 10mm pikemen from Old Glory recently, they are of as high quality as GW's WM range but they had literally NO FLASH on them WHATSOEVER. Whenever I buy any model from GW I have to sit down for a good half an hour making everything look tidy and nice BEFORE I start to put it together.

Less contrived and facile background and design please. Champion of Light and Darkness? Oh **** off, really. Also the whole "Space Marines wearing parchment dresses, having purity seals for eyes and candles on their heads" is really laughable, almost childish. Also the new COD buildings...why do they all have to have skulls on them? To a lesser extent I would like to complain about the eavy metal team, it seems to me every single model has to have some sort of bronze/gold on them, is this going to be called the 'bronze period' in a couple of years, like the red period before it?

Ruleswise...40k needs a complete rehaul for me to play it again. But that wont happen so I feel no need to moan about it here.

Warhammer, don't dumb things down, add in some things from WAB.

LOTR, stop releasing the same model over and over again in different poses. We are getting a new set soon which is just a rehash of HoHD except Gama has a standard...surely these resources can be spent on something better. Also...why release a new Balrog model when you have a plastic one coming out soon? Makes. No. Sense. Does. Not. Computez.

Specialist Games, bring them back into the fold. They are all better than your core games and are really the cream of the crop in terms of wargames rules. Far better than powerfist delivery system 40,000 anyway.

Restructure WD and your art department. Get more than two people working on WD and stop with the photoshopped images since you thought it was a good idea to fire lots of your artists (this is my impression anyway). Also, try and realise that just because you didn't make as much money in one year as in a previous year it doesn't mean you're losing money. As a result don't start firing long term staff members, designers etc to try and recoup 'losses'. This only leads to you actually losing money for real and your share price dropping massively.

*Moan moan moan, whinge.*

Stingray_tm
17-06-2006, 20:43
1. Tread your customers with respect, like other game companies. Don't insult our intelligence with obvious ads in the White Dwarf.

2. Publish FAQs, Q&As or whatever you may call it, regularly. Ignoring the problems and errors doesn't make them go away, it just pisses off customers.

3. Publish more fluff. And good fluff. Stop dumbing down the 40K background. The Imperium used to be a very ambivalent setting. Recently all ambivalence was droped. "Space Marines are the good guys, period." Sorry, but that's kiddie stuff.

susu.exp
17-06-2006, 21:48
I´m counting 4 calls for more attention to specialist games so far and here´s number 5. Necromunda is a brilliant skirmish game and it´s easy to get people to collect a gang if they´re into RPGs and just want to dip into TTGs to see if they are willing to paint up models and move them around. EPIC. Hey, this used to be a game almost on par with WFB and 40K, then E40k drove a lot of people away, but E:A is the best ruleset this line has ever seen. Why not back it up with plastic sprues for infantry and core vehicles. Such a wonderful application for the new computer aided sculpting technique. Test the waters with a box for Orks and Marines.

Xisor
17-06-2006, 22:00
Engaging fluff.

That's it. I'm likely to buy miniatures if they're decent...but everyone wants decent minis, I don't mind which is what, just that they're pleasant to look at, to build and to paint. Aside from all that, the Game is okay. It could be better, but things change...oh well.

With the fluff though, we've had a ton of proper 'pulp' stuff over the last few years. Only now with the Horus-Heresey stuff am I getting stuff that I can again read and go 'Yeah! This is good stuff!'. More things like Execution Hour, things that really allow you to immerse yourself. To come away from them thinking "I gotta get more of that!", to leave you thinking about the nuances of this alternate universe that you grimly immerse yourself in.

It may be the grim darkness in which there is only war, but the fluff can deal with alot more than a two dimensional axis. It needn't just be 'How grim is this darkness?' or similar.

We could do with alot more things like:
- Xenology, the Thirteenth Black Crusade, The Third War for Armageddon
- Horus Heresey novels
- Execution Hour, Shadowpoint, Eisenhorn etc

Just good fluff that we can properly get our teeth into. If it turns up in White Dwarf, all the better! I'd like to keep supporting this 'institution', but really couldn't if they keep going the catalogue-direction.

Xisor

Steeple_jackuk
17-06-2006, 22:20
As someone coming back to 40K since the Rogue Trader days, I'm glad that some things are easier for someone who doesn't find rules as much fun as collecting and learning to play with others. (how many of us get the thing we've bought and try it before we read the manual?).

Anyway I like some of the stuff GW is doing, I've found the staff to be friendly, generous and helpful. I've not found every store stuffed with kids, and I've seen that there are adults or at least older youth having fun.

What I cannot understand is why in 40k there aren't the same races as in WHFB - no Dwarves, Fantasy races etc as someone said - lets stop redoing the same races and get some new stuff out. I also concur that I like my Space marines simpler - more SF less gothic - but then I'm not that bothered by the fluff either. And definitely more content in WD photos are great, but I'd love more to deepen the game - why don't you release supplimentary or advanced rules for those who like a bit more meat in their games - its not me but I think others here would like it.

Sj.

hiram
18-06-2006, 00:55
okay very valid points, many I agree with (I may work for the company but I am still a hobbyist).

What I want to know is what can I do to make the hobby more engaging for veterans in a shop, I work in a hobby center for 3 years almost and want to know what will get vets in my shop to play and be members of a community, instead of just taking their money when they do come in. I like most of the older guys and want them to come in but am having a damn time pulling off this trick.

What as a veteran community would you like to see in hobby center to make the game or the GW hobby more enjoyable in a shop?

On a side note I see a lot of talk about specialist games but have almost no interest in them from my local vet crew, so that isn't a pressing concern on my mind at the moment.

Hlokk
18-06-2006, 11:28
What as a veteran community would you like to see in hobby center to make the game or the GW hobby more enjoyable in a shop?

One thing I would like to see is an attempt to shake many veterans out of the mindset of tournament playing as the only approach to the hobby. The number of people I see going in with min/maxed armies, starcannons of doom and others is rediculous. Encourage equal focus on background and painting as well.

Also, with veterans, a few dispensations wouldnt go amis. THere are the rules, and they are important, but bending them for vets on occasion wouldnt be a bad thing. ie: If they've just built 20 models and your not busy, offer to prime them or something.

Also, consider putting on veterans only things. Since Vet nights were given the chop, how about reserving a board or two exclusively for the use of veterans on games night?

sigur
18-06-2006, 11:56
My personal wishlist:

1.) Make 40k an interesting game again, the game I used to love when I was younger! This mainly means: Better rules. People aren't stupid. They can handle simple maths like modifiers for armour saves, shooting, proper vehicle rules, throwable grenades and so on.

2.) The prices are okay to me, as long as GW keeps up quality in the same manner. This means: High-quality plastic/meal, flash isn't that terrible, but there are sometimes quite annoying miscasts on metal miniatues.

3.) Take the focus from tournament gaming to roleplaying a bit more. If people want to play tournaments, they should go for trading card games. Teach people how to play in a friendly, gaming fashion in GW stores rather than turning new players into min-maxing machines.

4.) Honor your games' history! Don't rewrite the fluff every time you publish something, re-publish older books or make them avaible as downloads (you won't make any money from OOP stuff anyway). Don't be afraid of having your own style ruining sales.

5.) Stop that codex creep. Nifty, new miniatures will sell anyway, no need for making every army book/codex "stronger" than the one before. Focus on fluff, artwork and miniatures instead. This is what keeps people in the game, not the possibility to win games.

6.) Work together with gamers rather than working to get their money. Listen to Veterans, they grew up with your games, they have an idea how things should work.

7.) Generally, give the Veterans (and gamers in general) a bit of respect. Don't publish for kids only.

8.) Don't mess with the indie stores. Those are the ones that made you big, those are the stores that will keep you big. Believe it or not; there are many people who avoid GW stores and would rather go to their indie retailer any day.

9.) Squats! (oh, wait, I'm afraid I'm entering the "knee-jerk responses"-thing here:p )

That's it basically.

Grimtuff
18-06-2006, 12:00
Also, with veterans, a few dispensations wouldnt go amis. THere are the rules, and they are important, but bending them for vets on occasion wouldnt be a bad thing. ie: If they've just built 20 models and your not busy, offer to prime them or something.

Also, consider putting on veterans only things. Since Vet nights were given the chop, how about reserving a board or two exclusively for the use of veterans on games night?

How odd that all of these things occur at my local store anyway (IIRC the youngest gamer in on a Tuesday is 15)

I guess you may be up to your armpits in kiddies at Sheffield then? (Which incidentally is the precise reason I dislike a certain other store for it's tight-fisted adherance to the rules)

I sincerley hope GW will get the balance right soon, they seem to swing from pandering to the noobs and ignoring their existing customers then realise their mistake and go to the other extreme, yet never settling in the middle of these 2 extremes (which is where they should be).

...and how should they do this? IMO it is down to (as much as the OP hates it) Lowering prices! You get to keep existing customers as they will keep on buying stuff at prices they consider reasonable (unlike now for a fair few) and more people will come in as a result due to the entry level now being less expensive.

Just a couple of pennies there :)

Kjell
18-06-2006, 12:45
I'll tell you what I want, what I really, really want... ;)

Wgile I'm not a veter as such, I sure would be happy if the paint was cheaper. It's a minor thing but I think it'd be great.

dax
18-06-2006, 12:54
What I want more than anything is proper support for Specialist Games. I have no interest in 40K or Warhammer anymore other than as a source of minis. I play several specialist games and support has gotten so poor I've given up hope of any thing new appearing. Even the 2 releases per year aren't being released on time and some games still get nothing.

Also as already mentioned do something about the amount of tidying up you have to do to minis its definitely got worse recently. Its like they don't care anymore. If a miniature comes out of the mould with a lot of flash it gets packaged anyway rather than recast. Its a sign that GWs quality control isn't great anymore.

Zink
18-06-2006, 17:28
My personal wishlist:

1.) Make 40k an interesting game again, the game I used to love when I was younger! This mainly means: Better rules. People aren't stupid. They can handle simple maths like modifiers for armour saves, shooting, proper vehicle rules, throwable grenades and so on.

2.) The prices are okay to me, as long as GW keeps up quality in the same manner. This means: High-quality plastic/meal, flash isn't that terrible, but there are sometimes quite annoying miscasts on metal miniatues.

3.) Take the focus from tournament gaming to roleplaying a bit more. If people want to play tournaments, they should go for trading card games. Teach people how to play in a friendly, gaming fashion in GW stores rather than turning new players into min-maxing machines.

4.) Honor your games' history! Don't rewrite the fluff every time you publish something, re-publish older books or make them avaible as downloads (you won't make any money from OOP stuff anyway). Don't be afraid of having your own style ruining sales.

5.) Stop that codex creep. Nifty, new miniatures will sell anyway, no need for making every army book/codex "stronger" than the one before. Focus on fluff, artwork and miniatures instead. This is what keeps people in the game, not the possibility to win games.

6.) Work together with gamers rather than working to get their money. Listen to Veterans, they grew up with your games, they have an idea how things should work.

7.) Generally, give the Veterans (and gamers in general) a bit of respect. Don't publish for kids only.

8.) Don't mess with the indie stores. Those are the ones that made you big, those are the stores that will keep you big. Believe it or not; there are many people who avoid GW stores and would rather go to their indie retailer any day.

9.) Squats! (oh, wait, I'm afraid I'm entering the "knee-jerk responses"-thing here:p )

That's it basically.

I have to agree 100% with you on these and want to add a couple thoughts of my own.

1.) and 3.) People seem to want hard core tournaments. I've only played at one and don't worry about them much. But come up with a tighter tourney ruleset to be used there and relax on the general gamers. Ya, people will whine about too many conflicting rules but really how many different games do we play? I play a lot more than GW stuff and remember most of the rules most of the time. Honestly if it can't be that hard to say "ok, today is tourney armies, tomorrow we do a fun campaign, narrative, whatever." Too much of the attitude I see is sucking the fun from the games and promoting super competivness.

2.)I don't have much problem with the quality of GW minis but the prices are getting too high for me and I can't convert any new players because of the prohibitive costs of starting an army.

4.) and 9.)Annoys the heck out of me. I have no problem with mild fluff contradictions from codex to codex or different viewpoints. Just propaganda from the different empires;) But when they totally erase things and say never mention this or the inquisition will exterminate you... I still love the original IG abhuman squats figures. Get rid of the "WE ARE GW GOD. YOU MUST OBEY." attitude. Get back to the roots of being a game company made my people that wanted fun and interesting games and quit trying to tell me what and how I can play.

As a final note bring back and support more specialist games. They really are the gems that keep me coming back and a good lure to get people interested that don't want to spend $500 to try it out.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-06-2006, 17:38
A larger pool of non-plebby opponents would help a great deal! I could probably be accused of being Elitist, but why should I play a younger, less experienced gamer? Generally speaking, I'm not going to have much of a challenge against them, am I?

Don't get me wrong though. I've had my force torn apart by kids before, and I have to give them credit it for it. But for the most part, those people progressing to the Thursday night games club just aren't enough of a challenge, which means I tend to stick to playing against the same 3 or 4 opponents.

Oh, and a lot less whinging about something which is a take or leave commodity!

Also, I would very much like it if people less dedicated to Sportsmanship and Storytelling would steer clear of my campaigns. No, that particular mission isn't very fair, is it. Nor is it meant to be. But there is a Narrative. Frankly, I don't give a flying monkey poo if you'll get you best men killed off. If they don't try to sabotage the Generator, the rest of your army are going to get flattened when the Mega Weapon gets switched on!

but then, this is why we're trying to start up a Private Members club. We have the location. We have the facilities. We have the talent...all we need now is to start going to Thursday nights to start recruiting the better players! Let the plebs have the shop...we have something better!

cailus
19-06-2006, 03:38
Oh, and a lot less whinging about something which is a take or leave commodity!

Are you referring to the attacks on GW? I think they are called criticism.

It's funny how people don't like criticism against people who don't like what they like.

From this and other posts you have made it would appear that would prefer it if we all just went along with whatever crap GW was ramming down our throats. We want change for the better. If GW dioesn't change then they won't be able to maintain any level of service or product quality (lower profits or losses means less money for product development).

Orbital
19-06-2006, 07:32
I actually really like this question. It's good to get right down to what matters.

I get this feeling when I put an army on the table that I'm pleased with, and I like that feeling. It's what all those hours of painting are for. It's not arrogance or conceit or even the need to impress my peers; it's just being able to say I put my best out there and did my part to make the game worth the trouble. If my opponent is in the same zone then that feels even better. The sight of the models facing off on a good table with awesome terrain really makes it work for me.

Then there's the game. I want the guy to bring an "A" list, but no cheap tricks or exploiting of loopholes. I want mine to be the same... no wasted space, no filler, just a hard edge with flavor and some style. I like to see a list with about 5-10% of something really unusual... a Harlequin, a Kroot mercenary ally, a cool Forgeworld piece... something. I want to find his list as interesting as I find my own.

I like it when the balance goes back and forth. It's like watching a hockey game where the puck rockets to one end of the rink and then back to the other. One turn you think you're going to win, next turn you're sure you'll lose, then back again on the next turn. I want a page-turner. I wanna be on the edge of my chair. Whoever wins or loses is irrelevant if that balanced tug-of-war is there.

I don't want the game to go on too long and I don't want to end the game tired. I want to be wide awake on turn 6 to watch the last minute action.

Afterwards, I wanna kick back and remember the highlights with some laughter and astonishment. I wanna feel like the game made us better friends and that we now have some good memories to share. A few good photographs, a crisp batrep and a nice hot cup of coffee to wrap it all up and that's a good experience as far as I'm concerned.

What do I really want? I want that game as many times as I can get it. I don't want to have to fight about rules. I don't want to have to feel that weirdness when one guy is pounding the living crap out of the other and he can't get out from under it. I don't want turn one to decide how the game will end. I want a clean game, good models, a great table and a good feeling with no bad aftertaste.

This might not sound like something I'm asking for directly from Games Workshop, but it really is. I want nothing to get in the way of that experience. Every time I complain about GW or other players in the hobby, it's because I'm scared something will get in the way of that game experience I want so much. That's about it.

Briareos
19-06-2006, 08:23
What could GW do to get me to buy or even look at their products again ? Better value. It is that short and simple. I do not feel the products are worth what they charge.

Background is a mess, in no small part due to the regular chaotic rewrites.
Rules are more often than not too simple or too complex for a given situation.
The new cityfight is a joke.

Basically, I feel there is no direction to GW's products. Which would be acceptable if the company line didn't come on so high and mighty all the time. Today there is just too much difference between what they say and what is in the box.

hiram
19-06-2006, 15:03
I do not follow that at all.

Osbad
19-06-2006, 15:10
not to feel like I've been taken up the derriere if I open my wallet in a GW store. Seriously. Some of the rules are nice, some of the models are nice. But the prices are in no way justified by the amount of enjoyment I get out of them.

Mmm, let me think: I could buy this small hero figure for £6 or get a very nice bottle of wine (or possibly 2).... No contest! Once they stepped outside the realms of possibility for what in reality are fairly mediocre (by todays' sculpting standards of fantasy minis) models they lost me.

If they lock their prices for 2 or 3 more years, then maybe, just maybe I'll buy some more. On the other hand by then I'll be playing neater tighter rulesets, so won't want any of their figures except as proxies for models from better games...;)

Sureshot05
19-06-2006, 15:47
I'll echo a few points in brief as the previous posters have covered it very well.

- Specialist games deserve and need more support
- The better values issue (apologies to the original poster, but it is a big turn off when you actually have to considered that it would take a sizable chunk of your salary to afford the new models)
- The stores tending to be power gamer armies focused. I loved it when an interesting and fun themed army is place in front of me. However, I have found to my displeasure in two stores (so it could just be real bad luck) players with armies that are min-maxed and very little interest in scenarios or missions. The focus on the line up and fight spoils it for me.

Course, I'd love it if they brought about a return of the mission cards to try and counter this style of play.