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Sinsigel
20-04-2014, 15:15
Drain magic states that effects of remains in play spells come to an end, as well as the effects of other spells(again, the phrase 'come to an end' was used here as well).
augment/hex spells that last until the caster's next magic phase are obviously affected, but what about other spells?

Examples include spells regarding movement(walk between worlds, skitterleap, steed of shadow) and recovering lost wounds/models(regrowth, apotheosis, invocation of nehek).
Are these all affected by drain magic or not? Or only part of them are affected? How does your gaming club solve this problem?

Mr_Rose
20-04-2014, 15:58
If the spell has more than an instantaneous effect, like causing wounds or moving a model someplace, then that effect ends. This includes the effects of Lore Attributes.

Basically, if it happens just once when the spell resolves then drain magic can't cancel it. If it waits for some trigger, or specifically applies an effect for a period of time after the resolution of the spell, then drain magic can cancel it. For example:
• Wounds/models regained from things like Regrowth, or power dice gained from the Life Leeching attribute would not be affected by Drain Magic
• The increased Ward Saves granted by the Shield of Saphery attribute would be affected by drain magic, as would the bonus to cast caused by the Kindleflame attribute (not that you're ever likely to be in the position of casting DM after casting a fire spell on a unit and then want to cast another on the same unit but it's still a thing that could theoretically happen).

Dazqpr
20-04-2014, 18:54
Agreed, the only exception, at our club I can think of is comet of cassendora. Fluff wise magic is used to call the comet. Once its coming the magic is gone and physics take over. However unlike other spells you can recast it without resolving the previous effects which I think is more the reason we rule it this way. But that's up to debate as to whether we are ruling it right or not?

Some people try to argue plague of rust is not affected. This is affected by drain magic as we currently play it.

Mr_Rose
20-04-2014, 19:32
I'm of the opinion that if you have to, at some point, say something like "oh, remember that spell I cast {X} turns ago? That applies to this unit's action" then that is a spell that would be affected by Drain Magic, to include Plague of Rust.

Comet of Cassandora, on the other hand, cannot be affected at all because it doesn't target a unit and Drain Magic only affects units.

Dazqpr
20-04-2014, 21:23
If RAI the spell was made to counter spells that last until your next magic phase. Not go I want to take away giver of glory that made your WOC unit champ a dp! But there are always people who want to bend the rules.

Invincible Sword Goddess
21-04-2014, 01:54
That spell is really poorly worded and in need of an FAQ.

The only sane way to play it is spells that have a set duration, for example until the start of the next magic phase.

I feel it should probably apply to spells like wither and plague of rust as well and not spells like fireball or regrowth, but that is just a gut feeling and not backed up by any sort of rules or in game logic, so I wouldn't ask an opponent to abide by it.

SteveW
21-04-2014, 06:47
If RAI the spell was made to counter spells that last until your next magic phase. Not go I want to take away giver of glory that made your WOC unit champ a dp! But there are always people who want to bend the rules.

Giver of glory isn't affected by drain magic. The spells effect is that it opens the eye of the gods. If the eye of the gods table were an augment then drain magic would work on it. It is not so it does not.

SteveW
21-04-2014, 06:50
That spell is really poorly worded and in need of an FAQ.

The only sane way to play it is spells that have a set duration, for example until the start of the next magic phase.

I feel it should probably apply to spells like wither and plague of rust as well and not spells like fireball or regrowth, but that is just a gut feeling and not backed up by any sort of rules or in game logic, so I wouldn't ask an opponent to abide by it.

Is regrowth keeping the models alive? Nope, so it does nothing to regrowth.

What is someone saying it does to fireball? Its a magic missile and has no lasting effect.

Invincible Sword Goddess
21-04-2014, 07:26
From an in universe perspective I agree with you, but the rules of the game do not seem to make any distinction.

How about a unit of zombies created by raise dead then? The magic IS keeping them alive, from a fluff perspective, and the game rules don't distinguish between the two.

I could ask the same question about the level six lore of the wild spell.

Sure, a fireball isn't keeping someone dead, but the spell's effects are still what killed them. Wither, plague of rust, vaul's unmaking, there are a lot of spells that destroy something and they are mechanically more or less identical, who is to say which spells can be drained and which can't?

Dazqpr
21-04-2014, 11:37
Giver of glory isn't affected by drain magic. The spells effect is that it opens the eye of the gods. If the eye of the gods table were an augment then drain magic would work on it. It is not so it does not.

I agree with you, but due to poor wording people will try and bend the rules to these extremes. (It was the first example I could think of).

SteveW
21-04-2014, 18:12
who is to say which spells can be drained and which can't?
The rules. They say that the spell effects "come to an immediate end". If a spell has an instantaneous effect, it has already ended, so ending it does nothing. The only murky spells are plague of rust and whither, because they kinda blur the line between instant and RiP.

Invincible Sword Goddess
21-04-2014, 22:10
The rules. They say that the spell effects "come to an immediate end". If a spell has an instantaneous effect, it has already ended, so ending it does nothing. The only murky spells are plague of rust and whither, because they kinda blur the line between instant and RiP.

I totally agree with you that if the spell has a listed duration it will come to an end.

In my earlier post I was specifically talking about spells like plague of rust and wither.

I was saying that even though my gut feeling says those spells should be able to be removed by drain, there are no rules to back it up, and if I tried to justify it by the rules someone else could use the same justification for almost any spell. Do the rules make any distinction between armor which has been penalized with plague of rust vs. destroyed by Vaul's unmaking? Do the rules make any distinction between toughness penalized by wither and wounds healed by regrowth or inflicted by a fireball? I can't see any, and even though I have feel that they should be different, I can't find any rules support to back up my claim.

bigbiggles
22-04-2014, 07:38
It seems strait forward to me. It affects: remains in play, augments, and hexes. Both yours and your opponents

Invincible Sword Goddess
22-04-2014, 08:41
It seems strait forward to me. It affects: remains in play, augments, and hexes. Both yours and your opponents

So it would undo armor damaged by Plague of Rust, wounds healed with Regrowth, or magic item's destroyed by Arcane Unforging, or other permanent effects of augmentations and hexes? How about if your opponent is also using high magic and uses drain magic on a previous drain magic? It is also an augmentation / hex, would it bring back spells that were removed earlier?

SteveW
22-04-2014, 08:51
I totally agree with you that if the spell has a listed duration it will come to an end.

In my earlier post I was specifically talking about spells like plague of rust and wither.

I was saying that even though my gut feeling says those spells should be able to be removed by drain, there are no rules to back it up, and if I tried to justify it by the rules someone else could use the same justification for almost any spell. Do the rules make any distinction between armor which has been penalized with plague of rust vs. destroyed by Vaul's unmaking? Do the rules make any distinction between toughness penalized by wither and wounds healed by regrowth or inflicted by a fireball? I can't see any, and even though I have feel that they should be different, I can't find any rules support to back up my claim.
Then we are in the same spot. I cannot find any justification one way or the other for those two spells.

SteveW
22-04-2014, 08:52
So it would undo armor damaged by Plague of Rust, wounds healed with Regrowth, or magic item's destroyed by Arcane Unforging, or other permanent effects of augmentations and hexes? How about if your opponent is also using high magic and uses drain magic on a previous drain magic? It is also an augmentation / hex, would it bring back spells that were removed earlier?
Arcane unforging is direct damage.

Invincible Sword Goddess
22-04-2014, 08:55
Arcane unforging is direct damage.

Sorry, my mistake.

Still, the Drain Magic spell doesn't mention Augments or Hexes, it just says "the effects of all other spells on the target", which one could certainly argue that arcane unforging is.

Wilhelm das Blutige
22-04-2014, 19:45
Tricky one.

A degree of common sense needs to be applied. If the spell is still running, then it is cancelled. Things like Regrowth and other healing spells take effect immediately. The spell itself has done its job and is no longer running, and therefore cannot be cancelled. If this were not the case, Vampire Counts players would be in big trouble, a single casting of Drain Magic would undo all the previously cast Invocation of Neheks, Raise Deads and Curse of Undeaths, potentially removing a large portion of the army in an instant.

I don't agree with the case about Comet of Cassandora (although I see the logic behind the premise). A Drain Magic spell would stop the Comet from landing. In essence, the comet is gone.

Although I am not a big fan of them, certain Skaven spells like Wither (and I suppose Plague of Rust is similar in its application) would not have their effects cancelled. The damage is already done and the spell is gone.

Mr_Rose
22-04-2014, 21:04
How would drain magic affect the comet? The comet is not a unit, nor is it targeting/applied to a unit.
You seem to be under the impression that drain magic affects more than one unit at a time, or possibly the entire battlefield; it does not.

Imperator64
23-04-2014, 01:23
How would drain magic affect the comet? The comet is not a unit, nor is it targeting/applied to a unit.
You seem to be under the impression that drain magic affects more than one unit at a time, or possibly the entire battlefield; it does not.
I don't have my book with me at work buti think the stronger version of drain magic affects all spells/umits within a certain area.
My two cents are that it would/should not affect plague of rust, arcane unforging, wither or comet. They are the effects of previous acts of magic not the effects of current ones and the fluff-think behind the spell is clearly that it drains magical power that is currently present rather than restoring a situation to its pre-magic state. Still, i'm not sure if RAW would support this. It definitely needs an faq to fix the poor rules language.

Invincible Sword Goddess
23-04-2014, 01:33
I don't have my book with me at work buti think the stronger version of drain magic affects all spells/umits within a certain area.
My two cents are that it would/should not affect plague of rust, arcane unforging, wither or comet. They are the effects of previous acts of magic not the effects of current ones and the fluff-think behind the spell is clearly that it drains magical power that is currently present rather than restoring a situation to its pre-magic state. Still, i'm not sure if RAW would support this. It definitely needs an faq to fix the poor rules language.

The empowered drain magic effects all UNITs within 18'', not all spells, so comet would be unaffected.

However the description of comet does specifically say that the marker only remains on the table for as long as the spell lasts, so IF drain magic could affect spells that don't target units I would say it would have no problem removing the comet on that count.

boli
23-04-2014, 02:12
Doesn't comet state that once it is cast it cannot be dispelled?

Invincible Sword Goddess
23-04-2014, 02:24
Doesn't comet state that once it is cast it cannot be dispelled?

Yes. But drain magic isn't a dispel. Spells cast with IF cannot be dispelled either and AFAIK there is nothing to stop you from draining them.

boli
23-04-2014, 02:55
Spells cast with IF *can* be dispelled... Once they are cast (in the following turn)

Invincible Sword Goddess
23-04-2014, 03:17
Spells cast with IF *can* be dispelled... Once they are cast (in the following turn)

True. But as I said, drain magic makes no mention of dispelling whatsoever.

dms505
23-04-2014, 16:33
Wow I just actually went to read the comet spell rules and they are so badly written that, to me , if RaW the spell wouldn't even work. At the beginning it gives the identifier as the "fixed point" on the table, then the "marker", then the "comet". At least part of the rules wouldn't work since it says put another counter on the counter, then later it says the strength goes up for each counter on the comet, which wouldn't have any counters because it wasn't there yet. . . it should be "for each marker on the fixed point where the comet landed". I know only a d&%k would argue that but GW really do screw up rules like a champ.

SteveW
23-04-2014, 20:01
Wow I just actually went to read the comet spell rules and they are so badly written that, to me , if RaW the spell wouldn't even work. At the beginning it gives the identifier as the "fixed point" on the table, then the "marker", then the "comet". At least part of the rules wouldn't work since it says put another counter on the counter, then later it says the strength goes up for each counter on the comet, which wouldn't have any counters because it wasn't there yet. . . it should be "for each marker on the fixed point where the comet landed". I know only a d&%k would argue that but GW really do screw up rules like a champ.

You mean where it says to place a marker where the comet comes down? It the says the comet strikes the spot marked by the marker. So it works fine just as its written.

Lord Zarkov
23-04-2014, 20:17
I would read it as anything which can end (e.g. it's a RiP spell, or lasts a certain number of turns, etc) does; and anything that can't normally end doesn't. Else as noted you go down the rabbit hole of Invocation of Nehek, Arcane Unforging, plague of rust, etc, or even 'ending' the damage caused by a fireball.

IMO "Can it end under usual circumstances?" is the only clear line that can be drawn anywhere.

Leogun_91
23-04-2014, 20:53
From an in universe perspective I agree with you, but the rules of the game do not seem to make any distinction.

How about a unit of zombies created by raise dead then? The magic IS keeping them alive, from a fluff perspective, and the game rules don't distinguish between the two.

I could ask the same question about the level six lore of the wild spell.

Sure, a fireball isn't keeping someone dead, but the spell's effects are still what killed them. Wither, plague of rust, vaul's unmaking, there are a lot of spells that destroy something and they are mechanically more or less identical, who is to say which spells can be drained and which can't?It doesn't say that the effects of the spell(s) is removed but that it ends, this means that the effects stops now but not that they stop having existed.

The zombies from raise dead would be removable through this spell but the raise dead spell specifically states that they can not be dispelled which makes the question slightly iffy, the same is true for Savage Dominion from Lore of the Wild which similarly is said to be undispellable.

A fireball has the effect of causing d6 strength 4 hits, if someone casts drain magic on a unit affected by the fireball spell the spell will immediately end it's effect of causing d6 strength 4 hits ends, unfortunately for the high magic user the hits have been resolved already.

Plague of Rust would be ended as it's effect is ongoing as would Wither, both state that the spells effect last for the rest of the game so clearly the effects are not instantaneous but ongoing.

Arcane Unforging is a direct damage spell causing an instantaneous effect.

Giver of Glory specifically states that the targets immediately roll on the Eye of the Gods table, therefore removing the effect later with drain magic would do nothing as the spell effect has already been resolved.

Invincible Sword Goddess
23-04-2014, 22:35
All this stuff about instantaneous vs. ongoing effects isn't listed anywhere in the rules, and so you more or less have to go by gut instincts and fluff. If we were playing a story driven game with a referee like Dungeons and Dragons you might be able to make the distinction, but in a competitive game like Warhammer that isn't going to end well. As we have seen in this thread, there are multiple "yes" and "no" answers for almost every spell, so clearly there is no single consensus.

IMO the easiest way to play this spell is to remove all RiP spells. Then assume an infinite number of turns passes for the chosen unit. If the other spell effects would still be in play after an infinite number of turns they remain, if they would have ended by now they are gone.

Figment187
24-04-2014, 06:27
It doesn't say that the effects of the spell(s) is removed but that it ends, this means that the effects stops now but not that they stop having existed.

The zombies from raise dead would be removable through this spell but the raise dead spell specifically states that they can not be dispelled which makes the question slightly iffy, the same is true for Savage Dominion from Lore of the Wild which similarly is said to be undispellable.

A fireball has the effect of causing d6 strength 4 hits, if someone casts drain magic on a unit affected by the fireball spell the spell will immediately end it's effect of causing d6 strength 4 hits ends, unfortunately for the high magic user the hits have been resolved already.

Plague of Rust would be ended as it's effect is ongoing as would Wither, both state that the spells effect last for the rest of the game so clearly the effects are not instantaneous but ongoing.

Arcane Unforging is a direct damage spell causing an instantaneous effect.

Giver of Glory specifically states that the targets immediately roll on the Eye of the Gods table, therefore removing the effect later with drain magic would do nothing as the spell effect has already been resolved.



Form page 36 of the BRB "Some spells do not specifically remain in play, but have effects that last one or more turns. Once in play, such spells CANNOT BE DISPELLED, and remain in effect even if the caster is slain or leaves the battlefield, unless the spell description specifies otherwise."

It does not say in the spell description of drain magic that it dispels all spells just that it ends them. But dispelling a spell is ending it, is it not?

Zombies from raise dead would not be affected by drain magic, they are permanent.

You can never affect a fireball spell???? As it is cast and resolved before another spell is cast.

Wither and Plague of Rust are instantaneous, and it specifies that they CAN NOT BE DISPELLED on page 36, so I don't know why anyone would think that drain magic would be able to get around this. How is Drain magic going to unrust a bunch of armor and weapons???

Leogun_91
24-04-2014, 07:52
Form page 36 of the BRB "Some spells do not specifically remain in play, but have effects that last one or more turns. Once in play, such spells CANNOT BE DISPELLED, and remain in effect even if the caster is slain or leaves the battlefield, unless the spell description specifies otherwise."

It does not say in the spell description of drain magic that it dispels all spells just that it ends them. But dispelling a spell is ending it, is it not?

Zombies from raise dead would not be affected by drain magic, they are permanent.

You can never affect a fireball spell???? As it is cast and resolved before another spell is cast.

Wither and Plague of Rust are instantaneous, and it specifies that they CAN NOT BE DISPELLED on page 36, so I don't know why anyone would think that drain magic would be able to get around this. How is Drain magic going to unrust a bunch of armor and weapons???The written "Spells lasting more than one turn" blurb means that they can't be normally dispelled unless they specifically are Remains in play" spells but the army book specific High Magic spell Drain magic is an exception as it specifically writes that it can end such spells. If one argues that the army book specific doesn't override in this case then Drain magic will only be able to end "Remains in Play" spells, the rules are however clearly intended to be able to end other spells as well.

Fireball won't be affected, I just wrote more specifically how it can't be drain magiced due to already having been resolved, if ended through drain magic it would stop causing d6 s4 hits on the unit, since the hits have been resolved that ending would be meaningless.

Wither and Plague of Rust are ongoing, they remain in effect for the rest of the game, it is specifically written thus, the same is true for Raise Dead and Savage Dominion however where the difference lie is that for the case of Raise Dead and Savage Dominion it is written in their army books that they can't be dispelled and thus it is army book specific vs army book specific which is harder to resolve, I would lean towards them being removable through Drain Magic as it isn't said to be a dispel.


All this stuff about instantaneous vs. ongoing effects isn't listed anywhere in the rules, and so you more or less have to go by gut instincts and fluff. If we were playing a story driven game with a referee like Dungeons and Dragons you might be able to make the distinction, but in a competitive game like Warhammer that isn't going to end well. As we have seen in this thread, there are multiple "yes" and "no" answers for almost every spell, so clearly there is no single consensus.

IMO the easiest way to play this spell is to remove all RiP spells. Then assume an infinite number of turns passes for the chosen unit. If the other spell effects would still be in play after an infinite number of turns they remain, if they would have ended by now they are gone.The distinction between immediate and ongoing does exist, does the spell cause an effect that you resolve immediately and which lacks an ongoing effect (i.e: Fireball, Regrowth, Windblast, Hand of Gork) or does it have an effect that works for a set duration (which includes for the rest of the game if written as a duration) such as Harmonic Convergence, Flesh to Stone and Raise Dead.
To further show that the distinction exist I can mention that several spells mention them being immediate (for example Giver of Glory, Invocation of Nehek, Steed of Shadows etc), the rulebook also states on page 36 that most spells are cast instantly and are worked out at once with ongoing being the exception that has to be written into the spell, this means that unless a set duration (which may be the rest of the game) is written the spell is instant.

Invincible Sword Goddess
24-04-2014, 08:56
The written "Spells lasting more than one turn" blurb means that they can't be normally dispelled unless they specifically are Remains in play" spells but the army book specific High Magic spell Drain magic is an exception as it specifically writes that it can end such spells. If one argues that the army book specific doesn't override in this case then Drain magic will only be able to end "Remains in Play" spells, the rules are however clearly intended to be able to end other spells as well.

Fireball won't be affected, I just wrote more specifically how it can't be drain magiced due to already having been resolved, if ended through drain magic it would stop causing d6 s4 hits on the unit, since the hits have been resolved that ending would be meaningless.

Wither and Plague of Rust are ongoing, they remain in effect for the rest of the game, it is specifically written thus, the same is true for Raise Dead and Savage Dominion however where the difference lie is that for the case of Raise Dead and Savage Dominion it is written in their army books that they can't be dispelled and thus it is army book specific vs army book specific which is harder to resolve, I would lean towards them being removable through Drain Magic as it isn't said to be a dispel.

The distinction between immediate and ongoing does exist, does the spell cause an effect that you resolve immediately and which lacks an ongoing effect (i.e: Fireball, Regrowth, Windblast, Hand of Gork) or does it have an effect that works for a set duration (which includes for the rest of the game if written as a duration) such as Harmonic Convergence, Flesh to Stone and Raise Dead.
To further show that the distinction exist I can mention that several spells mention them being immediate (for example Giver of Glory, Invocation of Nehek, Steed of Shadows etc), the rulebook also states on page 36 that most spells are cast instantly and are worked out at once with ongoing being the exception that has to be written into the spell, this means that unless a set duration (which may be the rest of the game) is written the spell is instant.

That's actually a pretty good rule of thumb. Looking through the books the only spell I think people will have a problem with would be raise dead. Other than that every spell which has an ongoing effect that doesn't feel like it should be affected by drain magic does have the word instantly or immediately somewhere within its description. The only problem is a lot of the direct damage spells do not list any sort of duration or use the words immediately or instantly, and I am sure some rules lawyer will try and use drain magic to resurrect slain models.

Leogun_91
24-04-2014, 09:58
That's actually a pretty good rule of thumb. Looking through the books the only spell I think people will have a problem with would be raise dead. Other than that every spell which has an ongoing effect that doesn't feel like it should be affected by drain magic does have the word instantly or immediately somewhere within its description. The only problem is a lot of the direct damage spells do not list any sort of duration or use the words immediately or instantly, and I am sure some rules lawyer will try and use drain magic to resurrect slain models.If a spell neither list instantly or immediate nor a duration then it is resolved instantly as per the rules on page 36.

Invincible Sword Goddess
24-04-2014, 11:44
If a spell neither list instantly or immediate nor a duration then it is resolved instantly as per the rules on page 36.

So unless a spell lists a duration (which can be the rest of the game) it is instant and cannot be affected by drain magic.

All right then, it looks like this is all wrapped up and RAW. Good job!

Neither Raise dead nor Savage dominion ever list a duration, even permanent, it merely says to place a new unit (immediately in the case of savage dominion), so I imagine it would be an instantaneous effect under this rule.

hardyworld
25-04-2014, 01:59
I concur with the above. This is incomplete but...

Drain Magic would negate: the HE High Magic lore attribute, WoC Lore of Nurgle lore attribute, WoC Lore of Slaanesh lore attribute, Plague of Rust, and Wither (since they are all ongoing spell effects).

Drain Magic would NOT negate: the Life Magic lore attribute, Vampire lore attribute, Nehekhara lore attribute, LM High Magic lore attribute, Invocation of Nehek, Raise Dead, Savage Dominion, Dreaded 13th Spell turning models into rats, and WoC rolls on the EotG chart as a result of a spell (since they are all instant effects not ongoing effects).


Am I missing any other questionable spell effects?

bigbiggles
25-04-2014, 07:36
If you should write it down to remember the effect on a unit, drain magic will probably get rid of it. (E.g. remains in play spells on units as well as "until next magic phase" spells)

boli
25-04-2014, 19:56
I concur with the above. This is incomplete but...

Drain Magic would negate: the HE High Magic lore attribute, WoC Lore of Nurgle lore attribute, WoC Lore of Slaanesh lore attribute, Plague of Rust, and Wither (since they are all ongoing spell effects).


If you can negate the lore effect for lore of slaanesh/daemon/nurgle etc they you could also argue that drain magic bubble will remove any daemon units. As their presence is dependant on the winds of magic.

I personally go by the rule of:

Hex, buff and remains in play are DISPELLED things which cannot be dispelled are not. Its not RAW but RAI

Invincible Sword Goddess
25-04-2014, 23:30
If you can negate the lore effect for lore of slaanesh/daemon/nurgle etc they you could also argue that drain magic bubble will remove any daemon units. As their presence is dependant on the winds of magic.

I personally go by the rule of:

Hex, buff and remains in play are DISPELLED things which cannot be dispelled are not. Its not RAW but RAI

I REALLY don't think it that is RAI. Hex and augment spells cannot be dispelled after they are cast, only RIP spells can, and even if you are going by can be dispelled at the time they are cast, what about spells cast with IF?

As for whether lore attributes can be drained, I have no idea (what does the FAQ say about magic resistance against then?); but I am pretty sure Leogun has it right about which spells will be affected or not.

Wilhelm das Blutige
26-04-2014, 20:37
How would drain magic affect the comet? The comet is not a unit, nor is it targeting/applied to a unit.
You seem to be under the impression that drain magic affects more than one unit at a time, or possibly the entire battlefield; it does not.

Yes. I was talking about how Drain Magic would work in respect to whether the magic is currently running or is spent when the effects have been applied. I hadn't referred to the High Elf book at the time.

Now I've looked at the spell, my point regarding Comet of Cassandora is academic.

Wilhelm das Blutige
26-04-2014, 20:54
I REALLY don't think it that is RAI. Hex and augment spells cannot be dispelled after they are cast, only RIP spells can, and even if you are going by can be dispelled at the time they are cast, what about spells cast with IF?

As for whether lore attributes can be drained, I have no idea (what does the FAQ say about magic resistance against then?); but I am pretty sure Leogun has it right about which spells will be affected or not.

Hex and augment spells can be dispelled after they are cast, as long as they are Remains In Play. Not that whether they are Remains In Play or not has any bearing on the effect of Drain Magic.

As for Irresistible Force spells, they too would be removed by Drain Magic. Remember, even spells cast with Irresistible Force lose their potency and can be dispelled at the lowest casting value in subsequent Magic phases. Drain magic would be cast in a subsequent Magic phase to when a spell was cast with Irresistible Force, under most circumstances.

Also, Drain Magic is specific in saying that spells in the target unit(s) come to an end. I would say that Lore Attributes are not spells per se and therefore would not be affected by Drain Magic, though this could be a matter of opinion. Things like Daemons because of their Daemonic Instability would not be affected by Drain Magic.

Invincible Sword Goddess
27-04-2014, 02:57
Hex and augment spells can be dispelled after they are cast, as long as they are Remains In Play. Not that whether they are Remains In Play or not has any bearing on the effect of Drain Magic.

As for Irresistible Force spells, they too would be removed by Drain Magic. Remember, even spells cast with Irresistible Force lose their potency and can be dispelled at the lowest casting value in subsequent Magic phases. Drain magic would be cast in a subsequent Magic phase to when a spell was cast with Irresistible Force, under most circumstances.




"Hex, buff and remains in play are DISPELLED things which cannot be dispelled are not. Its not RAW but RAI" Is the exact quote I was responding to. He seems to be implying that dispelling non RIP Hex and Augment spells is RAI but not RAW, which I was disagreeing with.

hardyworld
27-04-2014, 04:25
Also, Drain Magic is specific in saying that spells in the target unit(s) come to an end. I would say that Lore Attributes are not spells per se and therefore would not be affected by Drain Magic, though this could be a matter of opinion. Things like Daemons because of their Daemonic Instability would not be affected by Drain Magic.
I can't speak for the HE book's wording, but the LM's book wording mentions "the effects of all other spells on the target unit immediately come to and end". And Lore attributes are spell effects as discussed on BRB 491. I don't see how you could see it otherwise.

Wilhelm das Blutige
27-04-2014, 23:34
"Hex, buff and remains in play are DISPELLED things which cannot be dispelled are not. Its not RAW but RAI" Is the exact quote I was responding to. He seems to be implying that dispelling non RIP Hex and Augment spells is RAI but not RAW, which I was disagreeing with.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I'll try to clarify things a bit.

Normally only Remains In Play spells (which might include augment and/or hex spells) can be dispelled at a later stage if they are not dispelled at the time of casting.

Drain Magic can end Remains In Play and any other spells still running that have a duration rather than an instantaneous or permanent effect.

Invincible Sword Goddess
28-04-2014, 02:00
I was replying to a post by Boli who said that it was rules as intended that any spell which can be dispelled can be drained, and that Hex, Buff, AND RiP spells can all be dispelled.

I was explaining that no, in my opinion, dispelling non RiP hexes and augments after the fact is neither rules as writer or rules as intended.

I then went on to explain how dispelling works, which you and I are in perfect agreement about but I got the impression that Boli is not.

Manicelf
28-04-2014, 11:11
Sorry newbie question, What is RAW and RAI?

Also, being an unexperienced player, this discussion is mostly way above my current understanding of the game. However, there have been a few comments suggesting background fluff and the laws of pyhsics as being some sort of justification for interpreting vaguely written rules. This would seem to me to be somewhat dubious as I've read a lot of background stuff and it is often quite contradictory.
Also, invoking the laws of physics for the purpose of interpreting rules for magic seems to be stretching things a bit too far.
Surely any agument over these murkey areas could be worked out before the game even starts. I mean players are obviously aware that such problems could arise, so sort it out before and if you can't agree don't play each other. Problem solved.

Invincible Sword Goddess
28-04-2014, 12:50
Sorry newbie question, What is RAW and RAI?

Also, being an unexperienced player, this discussion is mostly way above my current understanding of the game. However, there have been a few comments suggesting background fluff and the laws of pyhsics as being some sort of justification for interpreting vaguely written rules. This would seem to me to be somewhat dubious as I've read a lot of background stuff and it is often quite contradictory.
Also, invoking the laws of physics for the purpose of interpreting rules for magic seems to be stretching things a bit too far.
Surely any agument over these murkey areas could be worked out before the game even starts. I mean players are obviously aware that such problems could arise, so sort it out before and if you can't agree don't play each other. Problem solved.

RAW is short for rules as written. RAI is short for rules as intended.

bigbiggles
29-04-2014, 06:26
Wait, is someone trying to argue that drain magic will not stop non RIP spells on a unit by RAW?