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Invincible Sword Goddess
25-04-2014, 22:36
EDIT: Rewriting my initial post because judging by the responses I don't think I made the question clear enough the first time:

If a character with inspiring presence or a similar rule (such as the Bretonnian Peasant's Duty or Throgg's Winter-Tooth Crown) joins a unit that includes a model with the higher leadership, do other units using the model's inspiring presence LD use the base LD of the character with inspiring presence or the modified LD (i.e. that of the other model in the unit with the highest value).

Second, if a model with Inspiring Presence or a similar ability is within the LD bubble of another model with Inspiring Presence or a similar ability, can other units use their modified LD?


For example, Throgg the troll king has a base LD of 8 and a magic item that allows all monsters within 18'' to use his LD. If a chaos lord WHO IS NOT THE GENERAL with a LD of 9 joins Throgg's unit, thereby increasing Throgg's LD to a 9, will all monsters within 18'' test at LD 8 or 9?

How about if a chaos lord who IS the general moves within 12'' of Throgg. Will monsters who are within 18'' of Throgg (but not within 12'' of the Chaos general) test at LD 8 or 9?



I THINK based on the phrasing of the rules that simply joining a unit with a higher LD model will not boost the LD of models within range of your inspiring presence, but being affected by another model's inspiring presence will, but I am not at all sure.

SteveW
26-04-2014, 00:40
Your general is the model with the highest leadership.

Unless the model with higher leadership has a special rule negating this, and then you wouldn't be able to use it's ld anyway.

SteveW
26-04-2014, 00:42
For virtue of the ideal its a non-issue, if they use his ld they get a -1. So the general is still the highest ld.

SteveW
26-04-2014, 05:12
That would only be possible if they were both on opposite sides of a horde formation. Won't ever happen.


Even if it did, they'd still be on the 8 from the general instead of the 9 -1 from the lord.

SteveW
26-04-2014, 06:20
The generals Ld can be altered in the same ways as any other model I guess.

Invincible Sword Goddess
26-04-2014, 07:07
I don't think my initial question was phrased properly Steve, as none of your responses seem to be addressing my issue, I will edit the OP to be more clear. Thanks for the help though!

SteveW
26-04-2014, 13:48
Lol, I was quite intoxicated last night. I can try again once the cobwebs clear.

bigbiggles
26-04-2014, 15:52
My gut reaction is no, you can't IP his modified leadership. But I don't think I could find rule for it one way or the other, since this is the area that even GW does not seem to fully comprehend (okkams Flip flopping for example)

FatTrucker
27-04-2014, 13:15
If the rule for the item is that they can use Throggs Ld then they'll be testing on Throggs Ld. If Throgg has something that provides a modifier to his leadership then they will test on his modified leadership unless the item description specifies otherwise.

However. Using IP doesn't improve or apply a modifier to Throggs leadership, Throgg doesn't become Ld 9 or 10, the character providing the IP is Ld 9 or 10 and that's what Throgg tests against if he's using IP, not his own Ld but someone elses. So in that case the Ld won't be transferrable through him.

GrudgeBringer
27-04-2014, 14:37
It happens alot with the new dwarves, ironbreakers are inherently LD10 while a runesmith who usually the general if you dont have a dwarf lord if only LD9.

Invincible Sword Goddess
28-04-2014, 00:54
If the rule for the item is that they can use Throggs Ld then they'll be testing on Throggs Ld. If Throgg has something that provides a modifier to his leadership then they will test on his modified leadership unless the item description specifies otherwise.

However. Using IP doesn't improve or apply a modifier to Throggs leadership, Throgg doesn't become Ld 9 or 10, the character providing the IP is Ld 9 or 10 and that's what Throgg tests against if he's using IP, not his own Ld but someone elses. So in that case the Ld won't be transferrable through him.

The rules for IP simply state "Models within 12'' can use the general's leadership instead of their own." It doesn't list any conditions or exceptions. Throgg's crown says monsters within 18'' use his leadership instead of their own. Barring the presence of an FAQ or something, it seems perfectly RAW to state "Throgg is passing on (replace the word his with general's as per IP) leadership to all monsters within 18 inches''. It seems kind of weird to me RAI, but then again the FAQ ruled that models in units with IP can use the generals strength for Occam's mind razor and unmodified LD tests, so maybe not.

FatTrucker
28-04-2014, 13:58
That still doesn't read to me that its modifying Throggs leadership. He can test against someone elses Ld for IP but he remains Ld8. If something is testing against Throggs leadership, Throgg is leadership 8. At no point is his leadership improved or modified at all, he isn't testing on his improved leadership, he's testing on someone elses.

dms505
28-04-2014, 17:13
That still doesn't read to me that its modifying Throggs leadership. He can test against someone elses Ld for IP but he remains Ld8. If something is testing against Throggs leadership, Throgg is leadership 8. At no point is his leadership improved or modified at all, he isn't testing on his improved leadership, he's testing on someone elses.

I agree with this. The higher LD model in the unit doesn't modify Throgg's LD value. It just allows him to use the higher value for his tests. Other monsters using his leadership just use his leadership.

Invincible Sword Goddess
29-04-2014, 01:56
That still doesn't read to me that its modifying Throggs leadership. He can test against someone elses Ld for IP but he remains Ld8. If something is testing against Throggs leadership, Throgg is leadership 8. At no point is his leadership improved or modified at all, he isn't testing on his improved leadership, he's testing on someone elses.

Right, you aren't improving Throggs. You are using the general's instead. The IP rule says you may substitute the general's for Throgg's, and the crown says monsters within 18'' use Throggs. So IP would let you substitute the word Throgg in Winter Tooth crown with General.


I agree with this. The higher LD model in the unit doesn't modify Throgg's LD value. It just allows him to use the higher value for his tests. Other monsters using his leadership just use his leadership.

That's if he is in a unit. And I agree, it probably only applies for tests in that case. But IP actually says you may always substitute the general's LD for Throgg's, it has no conditions or restrictions on when or how.


I am pretty sure that going by the letter of the rules chaining LD works for IP but not for merely being in the same unit. But I have no idea behind the intent of the rules, and looking over four years of rules threads and FAQs I am pretty sure there is no official answer on how it is supposed to work, and everyone is just going with their gut feeling. It has a lot of similarities to using IP for your strength when using Occam's Mind Razor, there is no concrete answer according to the rules, just lots of arguing over opinions, and even the official FAQ goes back and forth on it.

One guy on Carpe Nocturn put it succinctly: When Wyssans Wild Form tells you to give a +1 strength and toughness to a unit everyone reads it as "ever model in the unit", but when Fireball tells you to inflict d6 S4 hits on the unit everyone reads it as the unit as a whole rather than every model within. There is no rule telling them to do so, everyone just agrees based on common sense. Some spells and effects are not so clear.

I hope 9th edition clears up the distinction between unit and model.

FatTrucker
29-04-2014, 12:37
Seems clear to me. Throgg can substitute generals Ld for his own when making any leadership based test. In this case Throgg isn't making a Ld test so IP doesn't apply.

Invincible Sword Goddess
29-04-2014, 13:06
Seems clear to me. Throgg can substitute generals Ld for his own when making any leadership based test. In this case Throgg isn't making a Ld test so IP doesn't apply.

If he is in the general's unit and outside of inspiring presence that is true. However if he is in inspiring presence range it says nothing about tests, it just says " friendly units within 12'' may use the generals leadership instead of their own."

FatTrucker
29-04-2014, 18:33
But again, Throgg isn't using it, Throgg isn't directly involved at all.
Another model wants to use Throggs Ld which is 8, Throgg isn't using IP because Throgg or his unit isn't making a Ld based test.

It states clearly, Throgg may 'use' the generals Ld instead of his own. In this case Throgg isn't using anything, he isn't testing against anything, he isn't involved at all. A third party is testing against 'Throggs leadership' which remains 8 at all times.

Throgg uses the generals Ld not his own with IP, but you aren't testing against that, it clearly states to test using Throggs leadership and Throggs Ld stat is 8. IP provides no bonus or change to Throggs statline if you really want to use RAW.
Not sure how many other ways to write it.

Invincible Sword Goddess
30-04-2014, 04:40
But again, Throgg isn't using it, Throgg isn't directly involved at all.
Another model wants to use Throggs Ld which is 8, Throgg isn't using IP because Throgg or his unit isn't making a Ld based test.

It states clearly, Throgg may 'use' the generals Ld instead of his own. In this case Throgg isn't using anything, he isn't testing against anything, he isn't involved at all. A third party is testing against 'Throggs leadership' which remains 8 at all times.

Throgg uses the generals Ld not his own with IP, but you aren't testing against that, it clearly states to test using Throggs leadership and Throggs Ld stat is 8. IP provides no bonus or change to Throggs statline if you really want to use RAW.
Not sure how many other ways to write it.

Yeah, that's certainly a valid interpretation. However passing it on to other monsters could certainly qualify as "using" it, which Throgg may do, so by RAW I would say either one is possible, and given their (current) stance on IP and Occam's Mind razor I would say is legal. But as I said before, it really looks like there is no clear answer here, just opinions. GW rules are simply not tight enough to be sure one way or the other.