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View Full Version : Okkam's Mindrazor and Armor saves?



Drachen_Jager
01-05-2014, 18:09
Just curious about how people are playing this one.

Mindrazor (Lore of Shadow) lets a unit use their leadership instead of their strength when rolling to wound. It doesn't say those hits are at that strength, it just says use that number when rolling to wound.

To me this means that armor saves are modified based on the attacking model's Str, not their Ld. If they wanted it to be the other way around there are plenty of simpler ways to word it. "Resolve the attack using the unit's Ld in place of their Str," for instance.

How does everyone else play this?

SanDiegoSurrealist
01-05-2014, 18:26
Interesting... always played as S = LD. Will have to reread that.

Drachen_Jager
01-05-2014, 18:58
Interesting... always played as S = LD. Will have to reread that.

Makes a huge difference in how effective the spell is.

When I combed this forum to see if the question had already been resolved, I came across an old debate. It seems in the earlier rules (7th or 6th, I forget which) it had been FAQed to clearly say that the Str adjustment was only to wound, then the FAQ was FAQed and the new version implied that it did affect armor saves.

furrie
01-05-2014, 20:04
page 51 of the big brb states:

Remember that wounds caused by Strength 4 or higher inflict a saving throw modifier on armour saves
So you use the same strength as you do for rolling to wound and as mind razor states that you use the ld as strength when rolling to wound, I would say you use the ld value as that becomes your wounding strength.

Drachen_Jager
01-05-2014, 20:36
page 51 of the big brb states:

So you use the same strength as you do for rolling to wound and as mind razor states that you use the ld as strength when rolling to wound, I would say you use the ld value as that becomes your wounding strength.

Yeah, but the spell doesn't say the hit is at that strength, or the wound is resolved at that strength, it says "...use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound..."

Nowhere does it say the hit is actually at that strength. Like I said before, if that's what they meant there are simpler ways they could have worded it.

What if the attacks are poisoned? Certainly they wouldn't be considered at a higher strength, because the bonus is only applied when rolling to wound. (taking your argument to the logical conclusion)

Voss
01-05-2014, 21:01
I think you're torturing the language unnecessarily. Many, many thousands of games have been played using LD as strength, including armor saves. I think it would have come up by now if that wasn't really what it meant.

Drachen_Jager
01-05-2014, 21:16
I think you're torturing the language unnecessarily. Many, many thousands of games have been played using LD as strength, including armor saves. I think it would have come up by now if that wasn't really what it meant.

It probably has, just not necessarily here. Certainly the wording in the previous edition changed over several FAQs, implying first one then the other outcome.

I find 90% or more of players simply continue to play things the way they did in the previous edition without thinking much about rule changes unless the wording of the rule changed dramatically between editions. When you get the chance to read the full rule, give it a once-over and tell me if you still have the same opinion. I can't see how any straight-up reading of the rule leads to a different conclusion.

So, if you think it modifies armor saves, what of poisoned attacks? Surely 6s to hit don't get the strength bonus, there's no way you can torture the language into saying they do, which leads to a very odd situation.

Drachen_Jager
01-05-2014, 21:24
Nevermind, it's been FAQed, I just didn't find it at first.

(so apparently it has come up before :P)

New wording is "... use their Leadership instead of Strength for all close combat attacks..." instead of "... use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks..."

Seems to me that the FAQed language is much simpler. Why word it in such a convoluted way in the first place if they just intended hits to be determined at that strength.

Oh well, I guess that's why the rulebook authors get the big bucks, huh?

bigbiggles
02-05-2014, 03:16
Yeah. Mindrazor is still OP. Unless you cast it on skellies or zombies

Mid'ean
02-05-2014, 03:35
Yeah. Mindrazor is still OP. Unless you cast it on skellies or zombies

I don't know. Skeletons and zombies within the VC general's IP range will have S9. Still pretty good to me.