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EricB
02-05-2014, 17:19
This spell from the dark magic says that every model under the template/magical vortex must pass a strenght test or be slain outright with no armour saves allowed.
It says u can take a WS but will MR improve this WS is what i am wondering. I think it can improve since a magical vortex tells u to take the test so it is magical damage.



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Blkc57
02-05-2014, 19:12
I see no reason why MR shouldn't contribute to the save versus Black horror. This spell is somewhat unique in that unlike other Save or Die Spells this one still grants you a ward save, so in effect it acts like it does wounds (it just does all of them) so I would treat it like its wounding the model.

Invincible Sword Goddess
03-05-2014, 09:28
Yes, MR would be allowed. Hopefully this is going to be the new standard for the "stat test or die" spells in 9th edition.

A bigger question I have about the spell is why it specifies "a single ward save" when, AFAIK, models are never allowed to take more than one ward save to begin with. I have heard a lot of players saying this means "one ward save which cannot be rerolled by any means" but to me that seems like so much wishful thinking.

MasterSplinter
03-05-2014, 09:33
Yes, MR would be allowed. Hopefully this is going to be the new standard for the "stat test or die" spells in 9th edition.
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Just wanted to write this but then.... :)

I assume the single wardsave does not mean anymore than that in this sentence. If there was a reason that you could not reroll the save by any means it would have been written down like that.

Texhnolyze
03-05-2014, 10:28
Yes, MR would be allowed. Hopefully this is going to be the new standard for the "stat test or die" spells in 9th edition.

A bigger question I have about the spell is why it specifies "a single ward save" when, AFAIK, models are never allowed to take more than one ward save to begin with. I have heard a lot of players saying this means "one ward save which cannot be rerolled by any means" but to me that seems like so much wishful thinking.

I think This just means that you can only take one ward save no matter the number of wounds you have left.

Invincible Sword Goddess
03-05-2014, 13:06
I think This just means that you can only take one ward save no matter the number of wounds you have left.

Ah, that makes complete sense. Yeah.

The reroll thing is weird, but I have heard several people who seem to really know their stuff stating with authority that it means non-rerollable, so that got me puzzled.

MasterSplinter
03-05-2014, 14:14
I donīt think thats the reason, how would it make sense to take several ward saves when every miss slays your character outright and every model touched by the template receives one hit?

Lord Zarkov
03-05-2014, 16:36
I donīt think thats the reason, how would it make sense to take several ward saves when every miss slays your character outright and every model touched by the template receives one hit?
I think it's to ensure people read it as "make one ward save or die" instead of "make one ward save for every remaining wound" - a 3 wound model hit by Black Horror has 'effectively' lost 3 wounds. Yes, even without the 'single' that's not how you should read it, but GW have a tendency to add redundancy.

RubenCM
05-05-2014, 21:54
I see no reason why MR shouldn't contribute to the save versus Black horror. This spell is somewhat unique in that unlike other Save or Die Spells this one still grants you a ward save, so in effect it acts like it does wounds (it just does all of them) so I would treat it like its wounding the model.

Well, MR states that can be used only vs wounds from spells. A fireball does indeed hits that causes wounds. I do not see the word "wounds" on any of the " test or die" spells. Black horror, as it is written, does not cause wounds. I would say that only models with a generic ward save that can be used for wounds (High Elves, characters with armor of destiny, Phoenix guard, Daemons, etc..) can only roll to save from the Black horror.

Kalandros
05-05-2014, 23:30
A model is slain when its wounds value reaches 0.

RubenCM
06-05-2014, 00:32
A model is slain when its wounds value reaches 0.

So we can use MR vs Purple sun, cant we? Purple sun makes I test or slain. So if it is slain, it makes wounds. So if it makes wounds, you can use MR.

Characteristic tests do not make wounds as it is stated in rulebook.

Invincible Sword Goddess
06-05-2014, 01:32
So we can use MR vs Purple sun, cant we? Purple sun makes I test or slain. So if it is slain, it makes wounds. So if it makes wounds, you can use MR.

Characteristic tests do not make wounds as it is stated in rulebook.

Except that Purple Sun explicitly states that saves of any kind (and MR is a save of some kind) are not allowed.

Blkc57
06-05-2014, 16:05
Black Horror is not like any other Save or Die spell, Ruben. Save or Die spells are not supposed to allow you to take a ward save, so comparing it to Purple Sun is about as off as trying to compare it to Fireball. As I said it has elements of many different spells, parts of the Save or Die rules and parts of a Direct damage spell rules. In the end I would treat the spell as doing wounds for the purposes MR, it just does all of them in one blow like a killing blow attack if you fail the ward save.

Voss
06-05-2014, 16:50
Black Horror is not like any other Save or Die spell, Ruben. Save or Die spells are not supposed to allow you to take a ward save, so comparing it to Purple Sun is about as off as trying to compare it to Fireball. As I said it has elements of many different spells, parts of the Save or Die rules and parts of a Direct damage spell rules. In the end I would treat the spell as doing wounds for the purposes MR, it just does all of them in one blow like a killing blow attack if you fail the ward save.

That isn't true. At all, actually, as 'save or die' isn't a spell type in warhammer. Black horror and Purple sun are very close in mechanics, the difference is purely the clause about the saves (PS explicitly denies any, BH explicitly allows each model a ward save to avoid death). This is entirely in line with characteristic tests at the front of the book, which define the failure as 'something nasty', where the nastiness is defined in the relevant rule: in this case the spell descriptions.

Blkc57
06-05-2014, 18:09
At all, actually, as 'save or die' isn't a spell type in warhammer.

We realize that Voss, we use it the term 'Save or Die" spell as a nickname for spells that use the rule for "Instant Kills" on page 93 of the E book. We are not arguing over the issue of the fact that Purple Sun and Black Horror are vortexes, they are. Characteristic Tests aren't the core of our problem. We are arguing over how to resolve the concept of instant kill which many of us nickname "Save or die" with the idea of MR. NOrmally it would be easy as page 93 is clear, but Black horror throws a monkey wrench into the argument. LIke I said the rules for Black Horror has elements of page 93, but still contains elements of allowing a ward save like other Direct Damage spells. I tend to favor the fact that Black Horror is not a true "instant kill"/"save or die" spell and allow MR saves to be taken against it. Ruben has a very legitimate argument though in his corner concerning the fact that page 93 specifically says that these types of attacks don't actually do wounds, they just remove the model as a casualty.

Voss
06-05-2014, 20:53
We realize that Voss, we use it the term 'Save or Die" spell as a nickname for spells that use the rule for "Instant Kills" on page 93 of the E book. We are not arguing over the issue of the fact that Purple Sun and Black Horror are vortexes, they are. Characteristic Tests aren't the core of our problem. We are arguing over how to resolve the concept of instant kill which many of us nickname "Save or die" with the idea of MR. NOrmally it would be easy as page 93 is clear, but Black horror throws a monkey wrench into the argument. LIke I said the rules for Black Horror has elements of page 93, but still contains elements of allowing a ward save like other Direct Damage spells. I tend to favor the fact that Black Horror is not a true "instant kill"/"save or die" spell and allow MR saves to be taken against it. Ruben has a very legitimate argument though in his corner concerning the fact that page 93 specifically says that these types of attacks don't actually do wounds, they just remove the model as a casualty.
But that... isn't...
OK, I see the trouble. Ruben is making a rules argument, and you aren't.
Direct damage is an actual rule definition. Neither spell is a direct damage spell, so comparing to a type of spell it specifically isn't doesn't help. BH isn't getting a ward save because it is sort of like a DD spell, but because both characteristic tests and instant kills say it can allow one if the specific rule (spell text) says so:

Characteristic tests are an actual rule. Both spells use them. The restriction on saves is ENTIRELY, by definition, at the mercy of the individual spell.
The Instant Kills has a caveat- that if the rule says otherwise, it can get a save (as BH does). So that doesn't actually help

The only relevant text is that of Magic Resistance, which doesn't mention wounds at all, just 'damage.' If being slain outright by BH is 'damage' then MR adds to the ward save they explicitly get to take. If it isn't 'damage' then they don't. Since the definition of the Wounds characteristic does mention damage as the way of removing Wounds... MR probably doesn't apply, but really GW needs to get off their butts and write a FAQ.

Blkc57
07-05-2014, 01:02
But that... isn't...
OK, I see the trouble. Ruben is making a rules argument, and you aren't.
Yikes! I think I offended you somehow! :)
If I did, allow me to apologize.


The restriction on saves is ENTIRELY, by definition, at the mercy of the individual spell.
The Instant Kills has a caveat- that if the rule says otherwise, it can get a save (as BH does). So that doesn't actually help
The issue is more to do with the line "Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties" I believe it is the crux of Ruben's point concerning wounds (I feel a little ridiculous though trying to state the opinion of another man I am supposed to be debating :))


The only relevant text is that of Magic Resistance, which doesn't mention wounds at all, just 'damage.' If being slain outright by BH is 'damage' then MR adds to the ward save they explicitly get to take. If it isn't 'damage' then they don't. Since the definition of the Wounds characteristic does mention damage as the way of removing Wounds... MR probably doesn't apply, but really GW needs to get off their butts and write a FAQ.

This is accurate to where we are. My point was trying to stress that I see the casualties done by Black Horror as inflicting "damage" as you say and therefore a legitimate source of MR. The counter argument has always been well damage is wounds, and Save or Die (should probably use the more proper term Instant Kills) doesn't cause wounds, etc etc etc It would be spectacular for GW to give us an FAQ, but I aint holding my breath on those arriving in a timely manner. :cries: So as we collect our opinions on whether MR is given to Black Horror, where do you lie Voss? Ya or Nay?

Voss
07-05-2014, 04:03
Probably doesn't apply, as I can find damage relating to wounds in the definition of wounds characteristics, but I can find any relationship between slain and wounds (and indications that there is no relationship) within the rules. And MR only relates to damage, situationally useful nonsense that it is. Ruleswise, if BH did 'damage', it would say 'damage,' and not 'slain outright'

But I doubt this intended, and just sloppy writing on GW's part.

I wasn't offended by your argument, just confused, since the 'pass characteristic test or be slain outright' part is identical for both spells. If either spell did 'damage' rather than instakill, they both would, since they kill in the exact same way. Saves (or lack thereof) are a separate step.

orionwoodking
07-05-2014, 06:12
In my (non-warhammer) dictionary, damage basically refers to at least semi-permanent negative effects, and being slain is definitely one of those. I would definitely agree that you can take a MR save in this case.
Ruleswise, a model that is slain has 0 wounds, so what BH effectively does is make a model instantly take a number of wounds equal to the number remaining. Which to me is damage

Also, if a spell says takes a wound with no armour saves, does that cause damage, are you allowed a MR save?

I hate to sound rude here, but I seriously challenge any of you to effectively reword BH so that damage is included rather than slain, without making the rule huge and cumbersome