PDA

View Full Version : Staring a Skaven army



Ell The Smell
17-06-2006, 20:57
I've played warhammer for a long time now and always only had highelves, and although i like them i feel that a second army would be a good idea.

I've always like skaven models and the idea behind them and they should be a change from highelves.

But i've never really played many skaven armys so i was wondering if there was any things i definitely should or should not do.

Just to point out i'm not after winning every game (after all i'm used to playing highelves) just after idea of a good sort of balanced army.

Thanks

Ell the smell

Ganymede
17-06-2006, 21:20
Well now that the skaven batallion set has been reduced to 90 dollars, I'd advise you pick up two boxes of those, as well as a box of night runners.

That will give you a good abse to start with.
80 clanrats/slaves
20 night runners/gutter runners
40 plague monks, plus there are enough flails on the box to make eight of them plague censer bearers
50 giant rats (that includes the 16 giant rats in every plague monk box)
4 rat ogres

That'll get you two units of 30 clanrats
one unit of 20 slaves
two units of 7 night runners
one unit of 6 gutter runners
one unit of 30 plague monks
one unit of plague censer bearers
one unit of 4 rat ogres
two units of 3 rat packs

That's a pretty damn decent army for under 230 dollars. All you would need would be to convert up some characters/extra packmasters.

Verminmistress
17-06-2006, 22:08
A useful piece of advice: if you want to keep your friends, go easy on Clan Skryre. ;) Basically, not more than 3 Ratling guns unless you're playing a really huge game, and try to limit yourself to about 5 Jezzails or so.

On the other hand (and I say this as a totally biased Pestilens fan-rat) you can't go wrong with Plague Monks. If you get a big enough block (I usually go for 30) and put them in ranks of six, you can bash your way through anything.

Ell The Smell
17-06-2006, 23:03
thanks lads

does anyone rate gutter runners? looking at the rules i'm a little bit conserned at there very low LD (although i am a highelf player so i'm used to my 8 on standerd trops).

Although clan Skryre can be a bit to nasty as u say Verminmistress, what about warp fire throwers, i've always like them are they also silly?

Thnaks Ell

Nell2ThaIzzay
18-06-2006, 06:32
And if you want to keep your friends, don't use a Vermin Lord or especially Ikit Claw. Talk about too good for the point cost.......

<--- *Nell2ThaIzzay plays against Skaven on a regular basis, and recently found out how unfun it is to play against Vermin Lord or Ikit Claw*

Alathir
18-06-2006, 09:49
If you want to keep your friends, dont play Skaven....

Darkvoid_bluff
18-06-2006, 10:07
A skaven player is one of my regular opponents and he likes to use every combination he can think of at least once.
One of the best pt value units in the army Ive found are the much underestimated slaves. 50pts for a 25 strong unit that doesn't cause panic checks? suprising hard to counter unless youre expecting it.

Nell2ThaIzzay
18-06-2006, 10:33
Considering I only really play against one person, who plays Skaven, maybe it will be a nice surprise for me when I start regularly playing against other armies...

<--- *Nell2ThaIzzay has only played against Skaven (regularly), Lizardmen (semi-regularly), Orcs & Goblins (twice), Bretonnians (twice), and once against Ogre Kingdoms*

Nell2ThaIzzay
18-06-2006, 10:34
Considering I only really play against one person, who plays Skaven, maybe it will be a nice surprise for me when I start regularly playing against other armies...

<--- *Nell2ThaIzzay has only played against Skaven (regularly), Lizardmen (semi-regularly), Orcs & Goblins (twice), Bretonnians (twice, neither of which really amounted to "legal" games), and once against Ogre Kingdoms*

skavenguy13
18-06-2006, 11:42
To avoid: (I'm basing this on a regular 2K game)
- lots of jezzails (say 25+)
- magic heavy (2 engineers are usually enough)
- lots of ratling (no more than 2, but some will still scream cheese at 1-2)

A balanced 2K list often includes:
a lord (either one)
an engineer or two
most of the time another hero, like a priest or a chieftain

2/3/4 units of 20/35 clanrats, possibly 2/3 weapon teams
2/3 units of 20/25 slaves

and then you work out with clan-specific units you want.

I suggest you look at the Council of 13 for more advice (in my sig)

Verminmistress
18-06-2006, 12:44
In regards to your question about warpfire throwers, I don't really rate them that much. All Skaven artillery is (literally!) very hit-and-miss, but warpfire throwers are particularly so.

If you can get them to work, they'll do a load of damage, but they have an annoying way of doing range (set range + artillery dice), so it's very easy to either not get the flames far enough, or totally overshoot the target.

Nell2ThaIzzay
19-06-2006, 00:25
Since we're on the subject of Skaven, what are your guys' opinions on the special characters, like Vermin Lord or Ikit Claw?

Sashu
19-06-2006, 00:34
Take a look at this website... it has more info than you could ever use.

http://underempire.net/

It's a Skaven Forum, tons of info.

adreal
19-06-2006, 08:44
i rekon yuo should cheese out with ur skaven army, i mean everyone complains about it, yet I've never seen it, everyone has horrible tlakes of what skyre does to them, yet most skaven players see this and play 'weaker' units. Skyre can go completly against you or screw up the enemy, the perfict way to play skaven

The boyz
19-06-2006, 12:08
I agree really with what has been said. Try not to over do it on things like Ratling guns and Jezzails. I plan on adding another Ratling gun to my army when I expand it too 2000 points, giving a total of two Ratling guns in the entire army. I would recommend you try and take a unit of Plague Monks, say about twenty five strong or so.
I would also recommend taking a thew rat swarms, these little critters are fairly tough and can hold up your opponents tougher units for a turn or two, while you hose them down with ratling gun fire or charge the unit in the flank.
I would also take a couple of units of slaves for this very reason as well.Slaves are very cheap and expendable. So dont be worried about charging them in to combats you know they wont win, they are there to die. Just charge them in and then because they are expendable just let loose a bit of magic or some Ratling gun fire into the combat and hope you take a thew of your opponents troops out in the process.

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-06-2006, 12:41
I would also recommend taking a thew rat swarms, these little critters are fairly tough and can hold up your opponents tougher units for a turn or two


Just notice that it will only last a few more months, as 7th is going to change swarms quite a bit.

skavenguy13
19-06-2006, 12:51
Since we're on the subject of Skaven, what are your guys' opinions on the special characters,
"Meh"


like Vermin Lord
it costs a damn lot through mail order, it's basicly a chaos greater daemon in a skaven army


or Ikit Claw?
We can't re-roll the artillery die with 2nd sign of amul, so "meh"

I don't see why you dislike those 2. And BTW, the Verminlord isn't a special character.

On the subject of warpfire thrower: they're pretty much useless against undead unless you get a perfect shot. The point is they can easily cause panic tests and are less hated than ratling guns. I almost always take a single one, along with 1 or 2 ratlings in my 2K army.

Nell2ThaIzzay
20-06-2006, 07:24
I don't see why you dislike those 2.

Vermin Lord: Creates leadership of 12 for rank and file regiments, i.e. can NEVER fail a leadership test. Makes units around him immune to psychology.

Ikit Claw: Level 4 Wizard who can take from any lore, as well as not 1, not 2, but THREE shooting attacks. All for less than my Vampire Lord...

skavenguy13
20-06-2006, 09:05
Vermin Lord: Creates leadership of 12 for rank and file regiments, i.e. can NEVER fail a leadership test. Makes units around him immune to psychology.
:wtf:
He can't give his LD


Ikit Claw: Level 4 Wizard who can take from any lore
As per many level 4 wizards and magic-oriented special characters

as well as not 1, not 2, but THREE shooting attacks
You can just stay away, they have very short ranges:
1 hit, 10"
1 breath template (ok this one is very strong, but you can hide)
1 small template at 8"


All for less than my Vampire Lord...
Only if you mount him on something big.

Note that also he's strong but not that much in CC and isn't that tough to kill.

Nell2ThaIzzay
20-06-2006, 09:20
:wtf:
He can't give his LD

Where does it say he can't give his leadership? I just read the rules; Vermin Lord must always be the general, and Skaven units can take the leadership of the general, plus the leadership boosts for ranks due to Strength in Numbers rule. There was no stipulation saying he can't give his leadership. Therefore, a leadership of 9, +3 for ranks, =12, an unfailable leadership for rank & file regiments.


As per many level 4 wizards and magic-oriented special characters

Okay, on it's own, it's not that bad, but when you add:


You can just stay away, they have very short ranges:
1 hit, 10"
1 breath template (ok this one is very strong, but you can hide)
1 small template at 8"

^That's pretty powerful. Range or not, THREE ranged attacks is pretty powerful, on top of a level 4 Wizard. One range attack is normal, one is poisoned, and one is a breath template flame attack, that automatically causes panic. 8"-10" is still a pretty significant range.


Only if you mount him on something big.

Non-mounted Necrarch Vampire Lord: 435 points
Ikit Claw: 410

Necrarch Vampire Lord: Level 2 Wizard, can be pumped up to Level 4 with Level 3 upgrade and Nehekara's Noble Blood. Can choose from Necromancy or Lore of Death. No ranged.

Ikit Claw: Level 4 Wizard, can choose from any common lore, as well as 3 ranged attacks, allowing him to attack NUMEROUS times from a range, one of them (breath template) able to cause MASSIVE damage, on top of 2 regular ranged attacks, also giving him 3 options for a "stand and shoot" charge reaction. Plus the Warpstone Tokens he gets that allows him to get even MORE power dice. Plus the free level 3 Warp Lightning spell that he has, that does 3D6 Strength 5 hits, on barely an 11+.

He can easily do more than a Necrarch Vampire Lord, for less cost.


Note that also he's strong but not that much in CC and isn't that tough to kill.

When he can breath template anything charging him in a "stand and shoot" reaction, it's going to be a heavy cost to get into close combat with him, to take out that ONE character. Plus, his stat-line isn't THAT horrible, especially against rank & file regiments. It'd take my Grave Guard to really have a comparable stat line, and I'd still need 4's and 4's to hit & wound (not taking any modifiers into account)

skavenguy13
20-06-2006, 11:46
Sorry about the verminlord, for some reason I read "can't" be the general, the first time I looked.

And IMO Ikit Claw doesn't look that underpriced for what he can do, that's how some special characters are IMO. So if you don't like stuff like the verminlord or Ikit Claw, just ask your opponent not to use them. They're both unofficial anyway. I was once dragged into a battle involving a tank and after finding out some weird things it can do plus the tons of rules it has, I know I'd rather be called uncool that accept playing against it.

Verminmistress
20-06-2006, 13:21
i rekon yuo should cheese out with ur skaven army, i mean everyone complains about it, yet I've never seen it, everyone has horrible tlakes of what skyre does to them, yet most skaven players see this and play 'weaker' units. Skyre can go completly against you or screw up the enemy, the perfict way to play skaven
True, but you're likely to find that people will hate you for it. Let's face it- cheesy armies are no fun to play against.

And to be honest, you get enough unpredictability with a 'normal' amount of Skryre stuff and a Grey Seer. (Wiping out three of your own units with a badly-aimed Plague spell is so much more fun than it should be.)

Agnosis
20-06-2006, 13:40
True, but you're likely to find that people will hate you for it. Let's face it- cheesy armies are no fun to play against.

And to be honest, you get enough unpredictability with a 'normal' amount of Skryre stuff and a Grey Seer. (Wiping out three of your own units with a badly-aimed Plague spell is so much more fun than it should be.)
Indeed. And not only is it no fun to play against a chesy army, it is no fun to play with a cheesy army either.

Ell The Smell
20-06-2006, 18:37
Thanks for all the advice lads, i've just got the Skaven Battalion so hopefully that should give me a bit of a start.

i don't think i'll use too many ratling guns, and i've never really like the look of the Jezzails.

One point, rat orgers i've got some of the models in the Battalion and i really like the look of them, do people rate them?

Angain thanks for all the advice, Ell

Verminmistress
20-06-2006, 21:56
In units of three or so-- definitely. (Any less and they're not all that useful, but more than 4 and your unit becomes unwieldy.) Admittedly mine tend to run off as soon as they lose combat, and not stop till they're safely back at Hell Pit (or at least off the table), but they usually do quite a lot of damage first.

On the down side, they're generally a firepower target, since they're bigger and scarier than just about anything else the Skaven have. But they have 3 wounds, so they can usually take it.

Nell2ThaIzzay
21-06-2006, 00:46
Sorry about the verminlord, for some reason I read "can't" be the general, the first time I looked.

And IMO Ikit Claw doesn't look that underpriced for what he can do, that's how some special characters are IMO. So if you don't like stuff like the verminlord or Ikit Claw, just ask your opponent not to use them. They're both unofficial anyway. I was once dragged into a battle involving a tank and after finding out some weird things it can do plus the tons of rules it has, I know I'd rather be called uncool that accept playing against it.

I think it's insanely underprices, especially considering my big bang character Zacarias costs over 1000, and isn't nearly as dangerous for my opponent as Ikit is for me.

Anyways, the Vermin Lord and Ikit Claw are unofficial, meaning they AREN'T like my Zacharias? Because my 2 characters, Mannfred Von Carstein and Zacharias the Everliving explicitly state in my rules book that they DO NOT need opponent approval, because they are balanced within the rules. Ikit Claw and Vermin Lord don't fall under this category?

I just hate telling my friend he CAN'T use those characters, because I can't, or choose not to use characters of my own. It seems kind of ****ed up in my opinion.

But on the same token, it does seem kind of ****ed up for him to utilize that power, when I don't have access (I don't have the models) to characters like that of my own.

fubukii
21-06-2006, 01:46
I would get a 2 battllions and like 6 more boxes of clan rats you will need more slaves and clanrats in the near future :D

skavenguy13
21-06-2006, 12:42
Well, if you're good at converting, I found a way to make a not-really-bad list of 2250 points using only the bataillon, a night runner box, green stuff and something to build a bell.

Rat-ogres: I like thenm, except for some reason they cost a huge 50 points. They're not worth the points, but at the same time, I can't leave home without them. I find they rarely do anything at all and they often run away, but they are great for psychological warfare. "I can't move there or else I'll get run over by S5 monsters" but the opponent often forget they have 0 static CR and do about 1 kill each, which is only enough to win when you flank charge.

I use 2 in 1000 poin games and 3-4 in 2000. 2 is risky because if you lose a single packmaster, they run off. 3 Seems like a perfect size, but they really don't get enough place. 4 is too large and too costy, but allows to hope for a win in CC.

If I were you, I'd buy a 2nd bataillon and trade either the monks or the moulder sprue in exchange for a night runner box. IMO every army needs 1 to 4 units of runners. They do a fantastic job, but if they're the only thing you have, you can't really win (Eshin army).

Jimmy
24-06-2006, 13:24
In smaller games I really like a Master Moulder with the warpstone amulet and the things catcher. Fairly cheap, not too bad in hth, and can surprise opposing generals with his killing blow. Challenges against a fully tooled up dwarf thane(before the anti-killing blow rune), high elf commander and chaos exalted champ have all gone my way because of the things-catcher.

Master Moulder-65pts
Things catcher-20pts
The look on your opponents face as his expensive character has his head ripped off by a skaven hero he assumed would be a walkover- Priceless

Cheers,
James

WillFightForFood
25-06-2006, 06:04
Vermin Lord: Creates leadership of 12 for rank and file regiments, i.e. can NEVER fail a leadership test. Makes units around him immune to psychology.

Read page 38 of the BRB, all stats except movement, wounds, and attacks are on a 1-10 scale. WS, T, S, I, and LD cannot go above ten. Also read page 10 of the Skaven rulebook, it says, "The maximum bonus you can get is obviously +3, for a maximum total LD of 10." It's a nice thought, but it's a wishful one.

Ikit Claw is not underpriced. He does a good deal, but I've priced him out against the Warlock Master in the Skaven book and the only thing that's not totally taken into account is the mini-warpfire projector. Else he's just a Warlock Master with more than 100 points of gear. For his 410 points you could get 10 jezzails, 20 clanrats with cmd, and a warpfire thrower and have 10 points left over. He also uses up a Lord and a Hero slot. The stand and shoot isn't a problem. If he's in a unit then LOS is limited to the front arc - flank the unit. If he's not in a unit just gun him down from afar. If it costs a lot to take that 1 character down that's fine, he's 410 points! In 6th edition heroes support units and add some fun -it's not herohammer anymore. It just sounds like you've had trouble and are thinking he's :cheese: . To be honest, Snikch and Queek are more interesting. :D

As far as the army goes, don't buy one billion clan rats. That's just plain demoralizing to look at if nothing else. Just build what you have now and paint it. Size up how what you have works and then add to the army organically. Grow it to your tastes and respond to the deficiencies you have with it. The Battalion is more than enough for the basic games.

As far as specific units go. To be honest Rat Ogres are great for flanking, but more than three is probably a waste, since they can't be ranked (also the plastic ones in the box are a bit ugly). Night runners never really pan out. You may be better served by either A) gutter runners, or B) another unit of clanrats or slaves. The strength of Skaven is their ranked infantry. Not saying you can't use the night runners,