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Kyluro
05-05-2014, 04:46
Hi all, I created this thread to hopefully share people's opinions on the best way for all armies to play against the Woodies.

For me I play High Elves and was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to survive the many bows. High Elves are pretty squishy, very expensive and my army is not very shooty.

What do you think are the best units/ tactics to deal with them without tailoring my army to fight only the Woodies??

Thank you in advance for your advice. :)

Josfer
05-05-2014, 05:00
It`s like rock paper scissors. Shooty beats slow, fast beats shooty, slow beats fast. If you die to shooty, speed up your list. Cav Bus with chariot and cav and flyer support and some shooting.

MasterSplinter
05-05-2014, 05:31
I´d guess going heavy on all sort of magic missiles to a low casting value will be good against woodelves. Preferably flaming attacks, so lore of fire casters, ruby ring. Fast moving should work too so that you are able to capture tree-jumping units.

Josfer, you have to tell me how slow beats fast^^
I guess i know what you are looking for but imo high armour saves are to tasty to pass up for waywatchers which will be included in most lists with a "withering" Shadow caster.

ashe
05-05-2014, 05:42
High elves wont have too hard time to deal with their wood elven brothers and sisters. The first ting you will need to do is to get some shooting on your own, wood elves are still army with no armor, and once bodies start fall the wood elves start losing shots rapidly. Of course to ensure the survival of your own units a couple of high mages could provide your main blocks with nice ward save which will keep them safe. Frostheart phoenixes are way to tough to be taken down by shooting so make sure you shut down your enemies magic phase and a pair of birds will destroy the WE in combat. The white lions and phoenix guard and lion chariots are the best options when it comes to ranked units, that should advance under heavy fire assuming you add a mage for the ward to the lions. I recommend archers for core they are cheaper than GG with arrows and every shot made against your archers is a shot not hitting your lions or PG, who will destroy your opponent in close combat after turn 3.
PS: don't take dragon lords vs wood elves while the dragon is going to be tough to kill the rider isn't, in fact mounted units are a bad idea vs Wood elves :)

Kyluro
05-05-2014, 06:14
Does BotWD give me a 2++ against their magic arrows?

ChargeAndDie
05-05-2014, 10:07
Yes it does. The arrows are magical. Only the waywatchers don't have magical arrows. Unless your opponent runs glade guard without any magical arrows.

Kyluro
05-05-2014, 10:12
Awesome... I think between my 28 WL with BotWD and my 25 PG with banner of eternal flame I run in my usual 2500pt list I should be okay.

Yamabushi
05-05-2014, 10:27
Can Arcane Unforging be used to destroy BoTWD?

MasterSplinter
05-05-2014, 10:32
Yes, it could be used. Almost was inclined to say that the BotWD is the answer to any question, but your post made me to hold back with this comment. On the other hand, maybe the only argument to actually choose arcane unforging.

Kyluro
05-05-2014, 10:39
I believe it is never wise to only rely on any single thing to win battles. Even without it I have a lion cloak on the WL and 4++ on the PG.

TheKingInYellow
05-05-2014, 14:14
If you have BotWD on a BSB he'll only have mundane armour. Waystalker + Bow of Loren will have that BSB dead in one or two rounds.

MasterSplinter
05-05-2014, 14:52
I don´t think so as he has got a 2+ ward save still.

SpanielBear
05-05-2014, 15:08
I don´t think so as he has got a 2+ ward save still.

True, but a waystalker without the bow of loren would take him down in 2-3 turns. Hawkeye is a skill, not magical. And people are considering multiple stalkers for character sniping...

MasterSplinter
05-05-2014, 15:12
Thats true, while it would be too expensive to have more than one Stalker in the list especially as its use will go down more than 20 points if he doesn´t have the bow of loren and the possibility to get boosted with the lore of beast - all presuming we talk about all comers lists.

I would rather have one against a BotWD BSB with the opportunity to get his tougness down with withering instead of two, maybe than cuting down on the shadow mage.

SAS
05-05-2014, 16:19
I played against WE with my HE this weekend and I lost with about 900 points. The list I faced hade 20 waywatchers, 40 GG (20 poison, 20 no modifiers) 10 GR lvl4 with moonstone, Eagle hero, 2 Eagles and 9ish wardancers. I had 9 SH, a Cav prince with 1+ re-rollable and 3+ strength, lvl 4 with book, lvl 1 with scroll, 20 archers, 10 Reavers, 9 Silverhelms, 20 WL (with BotWD), 20 PG, Eagle, Frost phoenix and a bolt thrower.

I can say that I was murdered in the shooting phase! with that many arrows flying almost nothing I had could withstand it. Now I'm a pretty new player so I made some mistakes in the movement phase which resulted in my phoenix being peppered by arrows 20 of which were poison, the did 4 wounds in a round! ouch... The waywatchers made pincushions of my WL with their no armour save shots. When I did get into combat however, the WE died like flies. The big Soul Quench aslo killed a whole unit of waywatchers in one go.

So in essence I would say that speed is the main weapon against this type of WE list, get into combat and try to not expose vulnerable units to shooting. If I play this list again I would consider sacrificing my reavers and eagle by charging, say, the waywatcher units in order to enable my combat blocks to move up the board without being peppered by shots. I'm also concidering dropping either the WL or PG unit and beef up one of them and ad another eagle, some SH and 1 or 2 Bolt throwers

and again, this is only based on my one experience, as a new player, of playing wood elves. Hopefully it will be give you something to go by

ashe
05-05-2014, 18:09
I hate to say it SAS, but your special units are too small and even if you didn't face wood elves any shooty army will be able to destroy half your army before you get across the board. When you go for WL with the banner of the world dragon you go big real big 30-50 horde formation (i use 30 and 25PG as my special choice) the idea is to deny points to your opponent and to have that one unit he cant deal with. As far as core choices go the archers are your best unit vs wood elves, both the GG and high elf archers have 30' range the difference is archers cost much less and you shouldn't give a damn what happens to them, the other core choices just don't work vs wood elves. The other problem is one phoenix is never enough, you need at least two ti make them work or you might end up giving away 240 points.

Drachen_Jager
05-05-2014, 18:15
The waywatchers made pincushions of my WL with their no armour save shots.

I don't have the army book, so basing this on what I heard, but I thought the magic arrows were limited to armor piercing, not armor negating. If his rule says "armor piercing" it just means you have a -1 on the armor save.

Tau_player001
05-05-2014, 18:19
I don't have the army book, so basing this on what I heard, but I thought the magic arrows were limited to armor piercing, not armor negating. If his rule says "armor piercing" it just means you have a -1 on the armor save.

Waywatchers can choose to ignore armor, or have multiple shots (2), with their regular bows, no magical ammo there.

ashe
05-05-2014, 18:37
Way watchers may negate armor, but you can still have your ward saves, not to mention if you go with all archer core you get something like 60 shots yourself in a 2500 game, something that no WE player likes. :)

SAS
05-05-2014, 19:06
@ashe: Yeah I know, but I'm quite limited in what I can field at the moment so there's that :P I mainly play to gain experience before I start trying to find optimal builds. as for the waywatchers it's as Tau-player001 says the WL get no save against them as the WW's arrows are not magical, hence pincushions ;)

ashe
05-05-2014, 19:47
you get the save from the lore attribute of the mage(shield of saphery) not the banner ;)

SAS
05-05-2014, 19:49
The mage is with the PGs. Perhaps not optimal but great point denial. I've only lost that unit one time ;)

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ashe
05-05-2014, 20:02
lol the mage should go with the lions the PG are fine and even if the PG gets shot to death it is not a big deal. The white lions and the archers are the primary source of damage in your army, PG lack offensive capabilities and of your enemy have a unit of rangers can ruin their day bigtime since they case fear and the rangers get extra attack vs fear casing units. :)

SAS
05-05-2014, 20:09
Yes well, that's probably true ;) maybe I'll try that next time. Anyhow I think I'm done highjacking this thread :P

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Kyluro
05-05-2014, 21:21
If you have BotWD on a BSB he'll only have mundane armour. Waystalker + Bow of Loren will have that BSB dead in one or two rounds.

I never take a magic banner with my BSB. He is only there for re rolls and a little extra fight. My WL have BotWD.

CapitanMee
05-05-2014, 21:35
Completely off topic but I thought the thread title merited it. Does any one know how dwarfs may deal with wood elves, particularly MSU style. The have so many reached ways to get around our armour and outs hats for days to catch them. Dwarf big funds have few food targets. Thoughts?

SpanielBear
05-05-2014, 21:58
Nasty filthy Gyrocopterses. We hates them!

That's your main answer. Steam cannons are horrible for us, no real armour and nice, teardrop- shape units. You'll need a fair few, poison shooting will hurt, but if you can catch our archers with those, a lot of your problems will be solved.

Your warmachines in general will be vulnerable to poison too, and Treeman are likely to be the only good cannon targets. Stone throwers will be a better bet.

Concentrate on shutting down our shooting. If we have to come to you, our speed and hitting power won't last in a drawn out fight against your blocks.

I feel dirty. Someone pass me a longbow, I need to go shoot some dawi and re-dress the balance...

Kyluro
05-05-2014, 22:08
I think this thread should be used to talk about any army. The feedback has been great so far.

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ashe
05-05-2014, 22:25
This thread is tactics vs the Asrai so asking for way how to deal with them with armies other than HE is still on topic. I agree with SpanielBear castleling up and using artillery, our shooting units, and gyro copters and bombers is the way to deal with woodies, if you are a dwarf player. Toughness 4 is not bad vs S3 shooting, but the dwarves are so damn slow, that i doubt they could catch the wood elves before it is too late, if they try to chase them.

Kyluro
05-05-2014, 22:44
I agree.

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CariadocThorne
05-05-2014, 22:58
Long experience as a wood elf player has taught me that dwarves, empire, dark elves and high elves can all build much more powerful shooting lists than wood elves, and that wood elves (due to t3 and little to no armour) are more vulnerable to shooting than almost any other army, which is why many wood elf players will focus their shooting on taking out the opponents archers in the first turn or two. Doing the same back will cause the wood elves problems.

Josfer
06-05-2014, 05:02
Josfer, you have to tell me how slow beats fast^^
The points you don't invest in superior movement and the +1/+2 armor and swiftstride you can invest in different things like more toughness and wounds like ogres/demons/warriors or superior numbers like skaven/emp. Sure you shouldn't compare 1 emp swordsman with 1 woc skullcrusher and there are still bad matchups (high armor vs low S, high points cost vs. impact hits, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.), because this is pretty simplified. But by rule of thumb, if your list loses vs shooting, you should speed up your list. If you lose against all cav lists, you should go more inf (see the dominance of hellebron deathstar vs. WoC). And if you lose against foot sloggers, take some more shooting.

Kyluro
06-05-2014, 10:07
I am looking forward to battling the new wood elves! I think my HE will do okay.

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daismith906
06-05-2014, 10:13
I think dawi units with strollaz run would be a good bet against WE too

Limit the amount of turns shooting at our combat blocks whilst gryocoptors & small units of rangers/slayer keep you busy

thoughts?

Flame cannons would be a good include too

Knifey Keith
06-05-2014, 11:49
I'm taking lots of bulls, plenty of ironguts, a few lead belchers, quarter of a dozen mournfang cav, one more than two sabretusks, a bruiser bsb with crown o command and one big nasty head kickin machine for a tyrant.

these wooden elves... nothing to be worried about.

Now chaos warriors! That **** is scary!

Ymir
06-05-2014, 13:24
with Dwarves, I actually wouldn't be so afraid of Waywatchers, as I would be of the poison glade guards. These could destroy war machines and gyrocopters that the Waywatcher's wont be nearly so effective against, and to defeat Wood Elves, war machines seem (to my mind) crucial for dwarves. So I would focus all available firepower on utterly destroying any poison arrow-Glade Guards on the board. And crossbows! They have the same range as the elven bows, but hit harder!

Asuryan's Spear
08-05-2014, 20:24
I've found two things effective against the WE in my two games. 1st is small arms fire. its relatively easy and inexpensive to get the same quality of firepower as the elves (str 3) in a strait shoot out WE usually lose and if they engage in it your superior combat infantry will have the time to get to their lines. I found the WE struggle to win on their shooting alone so archers should be left till last. the key thing to remember is that units have to be fully destroyed to give up their points... focus small arms on any combat units as they tend to be incredibly fragile with small numbers so damage is especially potent. the second thing is to pack as much armour into your list as possible...they struggle to get through massed armour

ewar
08-05-2014, 21:42
I've found two things effective against the WE in my two games. 1st is small arms fire. its relatively easy and inexpensive to get the same quality of firepower as the elves (str 3) in a strait shoot out WE usually lose and if they engage in it your superior combat infantry will have the time to get to their lines. I found the WE struggle to win on their shooting alone so archers should be left till last. the key thing to remember is that units have to be fully destroyed to give up their points... focus small arms on any combat units as they tend to be incredibly fragile with small numbers so damage is especially potent. the second thing is to pack as much armour into your list as possible...they struggle to get through massed armour

I'm thinking that the Waywatcher shooting will render expensive 1+ saves pretty moot. Looking at the rumoured rules (I don't have the book) I think my Tomb Kings would do fine. I don't have any armour, so that wastes a chunk of abilities. Sadly I don't bring any constructs any more as they're about as useful as real statues in a competitive game...

So massed Arrows of the Asp and AoE Smiting should wipe out those expensive WW and Scouts. Light of Death on the treemen, chariots to clean up. Only tricky part will be avoiding losing too many chariots to woods...

Doommasters
10-05-2014, 00:07
In the 2 games I have now had one versus HE I have found that 2x waystalker are really good at removing the Botwd and mages that don't take the +4 ward save. No WE player is going to shoot at PG as a first priority and don't count of the noted to save your WL's if they bring a way stalker or two.

The best way to beat the WE as I see it is get into combat quickly and focus down the waywatchers as a priority, magic missiles work the best here. I am not sold on the idea of trying to shoot WE off the table with cheaper archers for three reasons: 1) WE if they want to can easily have a unit tie that big block of t3 archers up for multiple shooting phases. 2) you have To be in range which puts your archers turn one at the very front of your lines given WE will be on the back edge and in cover. 3) it seems silly to try out gun and WE army stack with shooting even it they are more expensive

With WE that first round of shooting is just so critical I am finding. If you fluff your shots the game becomes really hard very quickly, however if you go first and do better than average shooting turn it's game on. Basically beating wood elves requires taking massive loses but getting in combat as fast as possible and melting low armor t3 s3 guys it's almost that simple.

Tae
10-05-2014, 00:23
In the 2 games I have now had one versus HE I have found that 2x waystalker are really good at removing the Botwd and mages that don't take the +4 ward save.

How? It shouldn't be on a BSB and regular standard bearers cannot be removed via Sniper (they can technically be targeted, but the banner is picked up by another member of the unit).

CariadocThorne
10-05-2014, 08:58
The best way to beat the WE as I see it is get into combat quickly and focus down the waywatchers as a priority, magic missiles work the best here. I am not sold on the idea of trying to shoot WE off the table with cheaper archers for three reasons: 1) WE if they want to can easily have a unit tie that big block of t3 archers up for multiple shooting phases. 2) you have To be in range which puts your archers turn one at the very front of your lines given WE will be on the back edge and in cover. 3) it seems silly to try out gun and WE army stack with shooting even it they are more expensive

With WE that first round of shooting is just so critical I am finding. If you fluff your shots the game becomes really hard very quickly, however if you go first and do better than average shooting turn it's game on. Basically beating wood elves requires taking massive loses but getting in combat as fast as possible and melting low armor t3 s3 guys it's almost that simple.

Wood elves are the only army I've collected in 18 years of warhammer, and especially since 6th edition, shooty armies have always been the worst opponent for wood elves.

Dwarfs, empire, high elves and dark elves have always been able to do shooty armies better, and a wood elf shooty army vs any of those will lose 3 times out of 4. The wood elves can't bring as much shooting, and can't use avoidance very well because they need to be in range for their own shooting.

I will admit that in 8th edition up until this new book, old msu and combo charge tactics used by wood elf combat armies haven't been very effective, but with the new book, wood elves can handle combat again now. Relying on charging straight in will only work against the most dedicated shooty wood elf lists now, and they are not going to be hugely competitive anyway. Most wood elf armies will still melt in front of decent shooting though.