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JayMack
07-05-2014, 22:07
A friend of mine said a GW rep (ie: manager) told him that the Spear of Kurnous can't be used in melee. Even though in the clause it says magic weapon, but it doesn't have the key word like the bow that it's a missile weapon or thrown weapon. Need a rules lawyer for help.

Knifeparty
07-05-2014, 22:34
Yea, I'm having the same problem. I don't know if it can be used in combat or not. If it can then Orion is a combat monster, if not well then he won't ever get used...again.

Mozzamanx
07-05-2014, 22:41
Unfortunately he cannot use it as a melee weapon under the current rules.
Nothing says that it is a melee weapon. The only reference to using it is to make shooting attacks. For range, it lists 18" rather than 'Combat'. There is no rule that indicates it is anything other than a shooting weapon besides the word 'Spear' in the name, but names are hardly rules.

Otherwise you'd see people trying to use Hagbane Arrows / Drake Guns as melee weapons. For now, Orion is a 600pt model who is probably limited to throwing out 6 shots a turn.

forseer of fates
08-05-2014, 00:45
Indeed it is a magical throwing spear.

minionboy
08-05-2014, 01:16
Indeed it is a magical throwing spear.

Yep, back to what it used to be!

Orion can either shoot a short range, bolt thrower, or a fist full of arrows. He's good in combat just by being a monster with high stats, but he also packs a nasty ranged punch,

Phazael
08-05-2014, 01:48
Orion being unbreakable instead of unstable is a major improvement, but now that he is a monster you can't bunker him in Treekin anymore. He probably should have been about 100 points less.

forseer of fates
08-05-2014, 01:58
Considering he generated two dispel dice, aye, he should have been dropped to about 500, 600 is crazy crazy crazy points for him.

Iron_Lord
08-05-2014, 08:12
I figured that the S7 bit is specifically thrown only - but the "ignores armour saves" bit applies to all attacks with the weapon.

Basically, that it's a melee weapon that can be used to make an S7 ranged attack.

EffCee
08-05-2014, 08:57
I figured that the S7 bit is specifically thrown only - but the "ignores armour saves" bit applies to all attacks with the weapon.

Basically, that it's a melee weapon that can be used to make an S7 ranged attack.


That's how I interpreted it too.

Odin
08-05-2014, 13:14
That's how I interpreted it too.

Ditto.

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minionboy
08-05-2014, 19:07
Yeah, it's too bad you all interpreted it wrong, haha. ;)

Chain
09-05-2014, 01:19
Still with S6 the close combat save gets a -3 already so unless he is fighting cavalry or a heavy armored lord his opponent probably won't have any armor remaining already.

orionwoodking
09-05-2014, 08:47
Ah, but it does not specifically state the spear as a missile weapon, unlike his bow. "[The] Hawk's Talon is a MISSILE WEAPON" but "The Spear of Kurnous can be used to make shooting attacks" and is not stated as a missile weapon, implying that it can actually be used in combat, with the hand weapon profile and its benefit of not allowing armour saves.

Da GoBBo
09-05-2014, 10:28
It's a magic weapon, without a type (unlike the bows of the twins, or Orions bow, which are classified as a missile weapon like orionwoodking said)). Normally weapons without a specific type are handweapons, so I would assume a magic weapon without a classification (like the majority of the magic weapons in the brb I might add) is a magic handweapon. This particular magic handweapon ignores armour and also has a statline to use it as a projectile. Obviously you don't get S7 and multiple wounds when you use it in combat, but imo you do get the magic attacks (for some reason Orion is not a forest spirit anymore, so you get the magic attacks from his spear) and the ignore armour.

MasterSplinter
09-05-2014, 13:46
Actually the closest reference for it is a spear - even if its not specifically stated like that. As a special rule it ignore armour saves. Furthermor it can be used as a bolt thrower even if Orion moves with a special profile.
It is pretty clear that he can use it in combat.

Odin
09-05-2014, 20:21
Yeah, it's too bad you all interpreted it wrong, haha. ;)

Actually, we didn't even interpret it... that's just what it says, quite clearly.

There are three parts to this:

It's a magic weapon. Full stop. Unless specified otherwise (which it doesn't), magic weapons count as a hand weapon with magical attacks in close combat.

It also has a shooting attack, S7 blah blah...

And finally you can't take armour saves against wounds caused by it. As it can cause wounds in close combat and at range, and this rule doesn't specify, the spear clearly ignores armour saves in close combat and at range.

There's not really any room for interpretation.

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Mr_Rose
09-05-2014, 21:08
Actually, we didn't even interpret it... that's just what it says, quite clearly.

There are three parts to this:

It's a magic weapon. Full stop. Unless specified otherwise (which it doesn't), magic weapons count as a hand weapon with magical attacks in close combat.

It also has a shooting attack, S7 blah blah...

And finally you can't take armour saves against wounds caused by it. As it can cause wounds in close combat and at range, and this rule doesn't specify, the spear clearly ignores armour saves in close combat and at range.

There's not really any room for interpretation.

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Yeah, having read the item the above is the only conclusion I can come to without adding or taking away imaginary text. It's like the Frenzy for the Wild Riders; it clearly does affect both rider and mount because they also have rules which are explicitly delimited to one or the other.

Yersinia Pestis
11-05-2014, 00:40
Actually, we didn't even interpret it... that's just what it says, quite clearly.

There are three parts to this:

It's a magic weapon. Full stop. Unless specified otherwise (which it doesn't), magic weapons count as a hand weapon with magical attacks in close combat.

It also has a shooting attack, S7 blah blah...

And finally you can't take armour saves against wounds caused by it. As it can cause wounds in close combat and at range, and this rule doesn't specify, the spear clearly ignores armour saves in close combat and at range.

There's not really any room for interpretation.

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+1

I fully agree (but don't like it, lol)

Invincible Sword Goddess
19-05-2014, 19:21
I am curious as to why this is even a question.

The rulebook clearly states that a weapons entry will say "close combat" or give a distance in range under inches. If the former, it is a close combat weapon, if it is the latter, it is a ranged weapon. The spear gives a range in inches and makes no mention of close combat, therefore it is a ranged weapon.

Why do people argue this and not, say, that glade guard can use their asrai longbows in close combat to gain armor piercing? Is it simply because a spear can be used as either a close combat or a thrown weapon in RL / fluff that they insist one in the game must be able to do both, or is there some ambiguous wording I am missing?

jester006
22-05-2014, 21:26
Actually, we didn't even interpret it... that's just what it says, quite clearly.

There are three parts to this:

It's a magic weapon. Full stop. Unless specified otherwise (which it doesn't), magic weapons count as a hand weapon with magical attacks in close combat.

It also has a shooting attack, S7 blah blah...

And finally you can't take armour saves against wounds caused by it. As it can cause wounds in close combat and at range, and this rule doesn't specify, the spear clearly ignores armour saves in close combat and at range.

There's not really any room for interpretation.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

page 89 of the rule book:

Range
The range tells you at what distance the weapon can be used. If a weapon's range is 'combat' then it can only be used in close combat. If the range is a number of some kind, it is a missile weapon and the number is its maximum range. *take note of the terms "missile weapon" and "close combat weapon"*

page 89 of rule book for CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS makes a clear labeling and identification that if a model is armed with a special or magical close combat weapon they must use that instead of a hand weapon.

As of right now, the Spear of Kurnous does not have any designation or special rule that identifies it as a close combat weapon. Since it has a range of 18", it is therefore by default a "missile weapon" and not a "close combat weapon"

Iron_Lord
22-05-2014, 22:10
Some Magic Weapons have special attacks - that doesn't change them from being melee weapons by default.

The Hawk's Talon specifically states it's a missile weapon. The Spear of Kurnous does not - instead it states "it can be used to make attacks like a bolt thrower".

jester006
22-05-2014, 23:18
In the High Elves army book, the entry for the Reaver Bow does not state that its a missile weapon nor does it state that its a bow, longbow, shortbow, etc. So should we then not treat it as a missile weapon?

Figment187
23-05-2014, 02:32
page 89 of the rule book:

Range
The range tells you at what distance the weapon can be used. If a weapon's range is 'combat' then it can only be used in close combat. If the range is a number of some kind, it is a missile weapon and the number is its maximum range. *take note of the terms "missile weapon" and "close combat weapon"*

page 89 of rule book for CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS makes a clear labeling and identification that if a model is armed with a special or magical close combat weapon they must use that instead of a hand weapon.

As of right now, the Spear of Kurnous does not have any designation or special rule that identifies it as a close combat weapon. Since it has a range of 18", it is therefore by default a "missile weapon" and not a "close combat weapon"

I was definetly leaning towards the use of it in combat until this post.

Jester006 showed that although lame, the spear indeed is a missile weapon and can not be used in combat. It is clearly stated in the rules, no wiggle room there.

jester006
23-05-2014, 02:59
I was definetly leaning towards the use of it in combat until this post.

Jester006 showed that although lame, the spear indeed is a missile weapon and can not be used in combat. It is clearly stated in the rules, no wiggle room there.

All though it may be considered a missile weapon right now, I imagine it will eventually get an errata to be able to be used as a close combat weapon. Look at the previous Dark Elf army book. There was a magic weapon that had the description of a lance, but wasn't classified as one. Later on (much later on in fact), GW added the "Lance" special rule to it.

Iron_Lord
23-05-2014, 07:06
Most "Magic weapons" don't have text explicitly stating "Close combat weapon" - we simply deduce that from lack of a Range section.

Ones which are missile weapons have a Range section and nothing else.

The Spear - by contrast, has a longer statblock, split into several sections. Hence all the debate.

Way I see it - if it was supposed to be just a missile weapon - they would have worded it that way - the same as all the other Missile weapons in that book.

Or, for that matter, like Alith Anar's "bolt thrower" bow.

orionwoodking
23-05-2014, 13:04
There is a minor difference between Orion's two weapons.

Hawks Talon: Missile weapon with the following profile...
Spear of Kurnous: Can be used to make shooting attacks... with the profile below...

Now I know there is not much of a difference, but technically the spear doesn't have a profile, but can momentarily take up the shooting one as needed, i.e when it's the shooting phase, and correct me if I am wrong, but that logic would mean it can be used as a hand weapon in close combat.

Ultimate Life Form
23-05-2014, 13:57
Well, that's the silliest wording I have ever heard. Can be used to make shooting attacks. Yes, it can also be used to scratch your back, for fruit harvest or as a curtain rail.

FAQ, please.

Mr_Rose
23-05-2014, 14:35
All it needs is an erratum:
Page 55 – Spear of Kurnous, second paragraph.
Change the first sentence to read ‘Magic weapon, Spear.’

moonlapse
23-05-2014, 14:44
I don't have the book, but where does the spear get its S7, ignores armour saves from? Does it just say 'may be used to make a shooting attack with thedfollowing profile: s7, ignores armour'? Because if that's the case, you can use it in combat but it wouldn't grant either of those bonuses in combat.. would it! How can you use its shooting profile in combat.

Ultimate Life Form
23-05-2014, 14:57
All it needs is an erratum

The real tragedy is that they had 10 years to work on the book and still manage to overlook such obvious things like this. But that's symptomatical of magic weapons with ranged attacks it seems. Like that spear in the Beastmen book where it isn't clear if it can be used only once or multiple times. Is it at least clear this time around?

jester006
23-05-2014, 15:10
There is a minor difference between Orion's two weapons.

Hawks Talon: Missile weapon with the following profile...
Spear of Kurnous: Can be used to make shooting attacks... with the profile below...

Now I know there is not much of a difference, but technically the spear doesn't have a profile, but can momentarily take up the shooting one as needed, i.e when it's the shooting phase, and correct me if I am wrong, but that logic would mean it can be used as a hand weapon in close combat.

I agree that common sense would say that the Spear of Kurnous should be able to be used in close combat. Unfortunately, for tournament play, the rules lean more towards this magic weapon being a missile weapon. The problem is that GW virtually lacks a QA department. All they needed to do was add "Spear" as an ability and there wouldn't be this debate.

Iron_Lord
23-05-2014, 15:58
I don't have the book, but where does the spear get its S7, ignores armour saves from? Does it just say 'may be used to make a shooting attack with thedfollowing profile: s7, ignores armour'? Because if that's the case, you can use it in combat but it wouldn't grant either of those bonuses in combat.. would it! How can you use its shooting profile in combat.

It has the S7 for the shooting attack.

However, below that, it says "Armour saves may not be taken against wounds caused by the Spear".

So - it's only S7 at range.

But, it's (if usable in close combat) "Ignores Armour Saves" all the time.

Da GoBBo
23-05-2014, 18:21
Range
The range tells you at what distance the weapon can be used. If a weapon's range is 'combat' then it can only be used in close combat. If the range is a number of some kind, it is a missile weapon and the number is its maximum range. *take note of the terms "missile weapon" and "close combat weapon"*

If this is the ultimate criterium, please tell me how I should use the spirit sword or daith's reaper. No such specification is given at all. In fact, According to you I can't use the common magic weapons either. Edit: the common items are actually specified as handweapons, unless stated otherwise. /edit

The only criterium I see, is that a weapon without a specification is a handweapon. Many magic weapons have the term greataxe in the items name, but without the spec 'greatweapon' it's just a handweapon with magic properties. Orions spear is a magic weapon without such a spec, and as such it is a magic handweapon, and it has several properties, one of which is the ability to use it at range.

jester006
23-05-2014, 18:28
If this is the ultimate criterium, please tell me how I should use the spirit sword or daith's reaper. No such specification is given at all. In fact, According to you I can't use the common magic weapons either. Edit: the common items are actually specified as handweapons, unless stated otherwise. /edit

The only criterium I see, is that a weapon without a specification is a handweapon. Many magic weapons have the term greataxe in the items name, but without the spec 'greatweapon' it's just a handweapon with magic properties. Orions spear is a magic weapon without such a spec, and as such it is a magic handweapon, and it has several properties, one of which is the ability to use it at range.

According to people who argue that the Spear of Kurnous can be used in close combat based off the item entry, High Elves can use the Reaver Bow and Alith Anar's Moon Bow in close combat. Because neither of those items state that it's a missile weapon. The only thing that suggests they are missile weapons is that they have a range that isn't "combat".

Don't get me wrong, I am for having the Spear of Kurnous usable in close combat. But referencing similar magic items and looking at the rule book, I have to say the Spear is a missile weapon.

Da GoBBo
24-05-2014, 00:34
According to people who argue that the Spear of Kurnous can be used in close combat based off the item entry, High Elves can use the Reaver Bow and Alith Anar's Moon Bow in close combat.

Yes I do understand what you are saying there, but I would also like to repeat my earlier question: how am I to use the spirit sword or daith's reaper when what you are saying is correct? It seems that by solving one problem you create another, so maybe it's not really a solution, but only bears the appearance in that particular situation?

jester006
24-05-2014, 00:45
On page 501 of the rulebook, paragraph two:

Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such, with these exceptions:

The key part here is "Unless otherwise stated". Since the Spear of Kurnous has a profile that gives a range that is not "combat" and that it does not have any other rule to identify it as a "hand weapon", "spear", etc. you then look under the part that talks about if a weapon has a range that isn't "combat" being identified as a "missile weapon". That then qualifies for the part in the magic section where it says "Unless otherwise stated".

Iron_Lord
24-05-2014, 01:03
Probably because at the time the High Elf book was written, the writers hadn't caught on yet to the fact that it's much clearer when you put "Missile weapon" before listing its profile.

By contrast, the magic bows in the Wood Elf book do have "missile weapon" in their description.

orionwoodking
24-05-2014, 07:02
According to people who argue that the Spear of Kurnous can be used in close combat based off the item entry, High Elves can use the Reaver Bow and Alith Anar's Moon Bow in close combat. Because neither of those items state that it's a missile weapon. The only thing that suggests they are missile weapons is that they have a range that isn't "combat".

I am sorry, but that is not at all what is being said by some people.

The Moon Bow is explicitly stated as a bolt thrower. A bolt thrower is a missile weapon. Period

Orion's Spear is a Magical Weapon which MAY be used in the same manner of a bolt thrower with the profile given below. In my books that means it is a hand weapon which can be additionally used to shoot.

Can I also mention that Orion is not mentioned as having a hand weapon in his equipment list, unlike almost every other entity in the entire rulebook. Though I am not sure if it is because he is a monster, because they were too lazy to put a general equipment list in his profile, or some other reason.

The problem is that since something is a hand weapon unless otherwise specified, should they have wanted it to be a hand weapon, this is the way they would have written it. It is like the wild rider frenzy for the mounts. I also do not believe that it was intended to be a spear as they grant additional rules that Ward was hoping to avoid, such as fight in extra ranks/+1S when mounted and charging etc as the WE book appears designed for the next edition and who knows what is coming! But of course there is a moderate amount of speculation in this interpretation.

Trains_Get_Robbed
24-05-2014, 08:12
I am sorry, but that is not at all what is being said by some people.

The Moon Bow is explicitly stated as a bolt thrower. A bolt thrower is a missile weapon. Period

Orion's Spear is a Magical Weapon which MAY be used in the same manner of a bolt thrower with the profile given below. In my books that means it is a hand weapon which can be additionally used to shoot.

Can I also mention that Orion is not mentioned as having a hand weapon in his equipment list, unlike almost every other entity in the entire rulebook. Though I am not sure if it is because he is a monster, because they were too lazy to put a general equipment list in his profile, or some other reason.

The problem is that since something is a hand weapon unless otherwise specified, should they have wanted it to be a hand weapon, this is the way they would have written it. It is like the wild rider frenzy for the mounts. I also do not believe that it was intended to be a spear as they grant additional rules that Ward was hoping to avoid, such as fight in extra ranks/+1S when mounted and charging etc as the WE book appears designed for the next edition and who knows what is coming! But of course there is a moderate amount of speculation in this interpretation.


Shoots like a Bolt Thrower and is a Bolt Thrower are two different things.

Da GoBBo
24-05-2014, 10:05
^ Indeed, that really says it all (which is what Orionwoodking also said btw)


The key part here is "Unless otherwise stated". Since the Spear of Kurnous has a profile that gives a range that is not "combat" and ...

But it doesn't give the weapon such a profile. Unlike the bow Orion caries, it is not "a missile weapon with the following profile", it simple gives it the option to make shooting attacks with that weapon using the given profile. Those are very different things.

theunwantedbeing
24-05-2014, 10:53
Unless otherwise stated, a magical weapon is a hand weapon.
-from the bit in the rules that covers magical weapons that I can't be bothered quoting a reference for because nobody checks anyway

Does it state what sort of weapon it is?
If not, it's a hand weapon.

forseer of fates
24-05-2014, 12:33
There's no diff between a spear and hand weapon on foot so who cares:P

orionwoodking
24-05-2014, 12:48
Spear has fight in additional ranks when not charging, but as I said, this could change in the next edition which is rumoured to be coming sometime soon

jester006
24-05-2014, 15:36
Unless otherwise stated, a magical weapon is a hand weapon.
-from the bit in the rules that covers magical weapons that I can't be bothered quoting a reference for because nobody checks anyway

Does it state what sort of weapon it is?
If not, it's a hand weapon.

The Spear of Kurnous has a profile with a range that isn't "combat". This is the statement that makes it a missile weapon. Also there are no other rules it has before or after seeing the profile to identify it as a close combat weapon.


People are trying to use different standards to classify this magic weapon than they are with the Reaver Bow and Alith Anar's Moon Bow. Both those magic weapons have nothing that plainly states they are missile weapons. The only way you can say they are, per the rules, is by following the same set of reasoning I have shown in my previous posts. Since both the Reaver Bow and Moon Bow have a profile that has a range that isn't "combat" and that they have no other rule to identify them as a "close combat" weapon, they are then by default a "missile weapon". Using that exact same line of deduction, the Spear of Kurnous (as it is currently written) is a "missile weapon".

dementian
25-05-2014, 14:36
"Magic Weapon. The Spear of Kinross can be used to make shooting attacks using the same rules as a bolt thrower with the profile below. This attack can be made if Orion moves (but not if he marches)."


Using the rules for a bolt thrower armor saves are already not allowed against the shooting attack which means the follow up rule that

"Armour saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by the Spear of Kurnous." would be referring to the wounds caused in close combat.

As many people have said a magic weapon without a type is a handweapon. And to be able to make a shooting attack is not the same as being a ranged weapon.

Da GoBBo
25-05-2014, 16:08
Also there are no other rules it has before or after seeing the profile to identify it as a close combat weapon.

Yes it does, the part where the rules identify it as a "magic weapon, dot", which is sufficient to identify it as such. "Why is that" you ask. Please note that handweapons don't have a profile that gives them the 'range: combat' spec either, so I would love to see you argue handweapons can't be used in combat.

I believe you can't, because the rules say handweapons fight "according to the rules as laid out in earlier sections". This doesn't exclude the shooting phase but since handweapons have an undefined range lets assume the minimum range of zero, which indicates base to base and as such being locked in close combat, which excludes shooting, which leaves fighting according the rules in the close combat section.

Therefor a handweapon, even without the 'range: combat' spec, is a close combat weapon indeed (because you fight with it using the rules in the close combat section), and therefor a magic weapon without further specs, even without the 'range: combat' spec, can and will default back to being a handweapon (albeit a magical one) and as such is a close combat weapon because you fight with it following the rules for close combat. Contrary to being a handweapon, ranged weapons (and any weapon that is not a handweapon) do specifically need to be identified as a ranged weapon, and Orions spear (as argued before) simply isn't. It is a magic weapon (dot) with the ability (but not the spec) to use it as an exceptional bolt thrower. The profile is part of the ability, not the weapontype.

Now apart from the assumption that handweapons have a range of zero (which I simply did because it isn't declared anywhere), this argument comes straight from the letter of the rules. The validity of that assumption isn't important to the argument though (if proven wrong a handweapon whould simply be a ranged as well as a close combat weapon) so to prove me wrong I feel you need to argue that this ability to make shooting attacks somehow also is the needed specification of a ranged weapon (and a ranged weapon alone). You have been trying to do that but not directly, but via the roundabout way if denying it the spec of close combat weapon, which I believe I have now blocked. The second option you have available is to argue that handweapons can't be used at all in any capacity, but I believe that road has been denied too. I can't think of any other options you have available, but if they are there I would love for you to show them :)

Concerning the high elf bows. I don't have that book but I will assume it is a weapon that comes with a profile that identifies it as a ranged weapon in the same way the the rules for bows and javelins etc. are identified as ranged weapons via their profile , as opposed to a weapon that comes with an ability that in turn comes with a profile. Those are different things, and I therefor believe any problems that crop up in strict rules analysis for those items, don't come about here.

jester006
25-05-2014, 20:53
Please note that handweapons don't have a profile that gives them the 'range: combat' spec either, so I would love to see you argue handweapons can't be used in combat.

But they do not have a profile that has a range of some sort of inches; therefore hand weapons cannot be missile weapons.



Therefor a handweapon, even without the 'range: combat' spec, is a close combat weapon indeed (because you fight with it using the rules in the close combat section), and therefor a magic weapon without further specs, even without the 'range: combat' spec, can and will default back to being a handweapon (albeit a magical one) and as such is a close combat weapon because you fight with it following the rules for close combat. Contrary to being a handweapon, ranged weapons (and any weapon that is not a handweapon) do specifically need to be identified as a ranged weapon, and Orions spear (as argued before) simply isn't. It is a magic weapon (dot) with the ability (but not the spec) to use it as an exceptional bolt thrower. The profile is part of the ability, not the weapontype.

So using your statement, High Elves can now use the Moon Bow and Reaver Bow in close combat. I have not seen anyone use them in CC because they are considered to be missile weapons, and rightly so due to the fact they have a profile with a range that isn't "combat" and no other rule that says they can also be used in close combat (just like the Spear of Kurnous). Another magic weapon I would like to reference is the Dwarves Master Rune of Flight. It gives the magic hand weapon a profile that has a range of 12". I would have argued that this weapon then could not be used in close combat, but the very last sentence says that the ability of using that runic weapon as a missile weapon does not prevent it being used in close combat. Once a weapon is given a range with some number it now becomes a "missile weapon" and therefore cannot be used in close combat unless there's something that states otherwise.


Now apart from the assumption that handweapons have a range of zero (which I simply did because it isn't declared anywhere), this argument comes straight from the letter of the rules. The validity of that assumption isn't important to the argument though (if proven wrong a handweapon whould simply be a ranged as well as a close combat weapon) so to prove me wrong I feel you need to argue that this ability to make shooting attacks somehow also is the needed specification of a ranged weapon (and a ranged weapon alone).

A weapon can only be classified as a missile weapon if it has a range that is not "combat". Since "hand weapons" do not have a ranged that isn't "combat" they are therefore not missile weapons.


You have been trying to do that but not directly, but via the roundabout way if denying it the spec of close combat weapon, which I believe I have now blocked.

No you haven't "blocked" it. You are just interpreting the rules differently.


The second option you have available is to argue that handweapons can't be used at all in any capacity, but I believe that road has been denied too. I can't think of any other options you have available, but if they are there I would love for you to show them :)

Simple. As stated earlier, a hand weapon does not have a range that isn't "combat" and therefore cannot be a "missile weapon". Then by using the process of elimination, hand weapons (just hand weapons) can only be used in close combat since they lack the qualifications of a "missile weapon".


Concerning the high elf bows. I don't have that book but I will assume it is a weapon that comes with a profile that identifies it as a ranged weapon in the same way the the rules for bows and javelins etc. are identified as ranged weapons via their profile , as opposed to a weapon that comes with an ability that in turn comes with a profile. Those are different things, and I therefor believe any problems that crop up in strict rules analysis for those items, don't come about here.

Other than their profiles, those High Elf magic bows have nothing else to identify them as being a "missile weapon". According to the rules for magic weapons:

"Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such, with these exceptions:"

The process/statement that people use to say that both those High Elf magic bows cannot be used in close combat is that they have a profile that has inches as the range. As stated earlier, there is no other rule that allows these bows to be used in close combat as a "missile weapon". You apply the exact same process to the Spear of Kurnous and you come up with the same answer; its a "missile weapon" that cannot be used in close combat.

Da GoBBo
25-05-2014, 21:37
Since "hand weapons" do not have a ranged that isn't "combat" they are therefore not missile weapons.


Good, I hope you realise this is very different from what you have been claiming up untill now, which was that a close combat weapon needs a range that is 'combat'. It doesn't, it just needs the absence of a range that is more than zero. I'm glad we are in agreement here now.

That leaves the same old same old, a point that you have chosen not to respond to every time others have made it. You keep insisting this item has a profile with range, and that that is what makes it a missile. This is indeed the case for the elven bows, and it is indeed why those are in fact missile weapons. In that they differ not from what makes normal weapons a missile weapon. A bow is missile weapon because it has a range on it's profile. A weapon that has the 'bow' spec is a ranged weapon because the specification of bow gives it the profile, and that makes it a missile weapon. That much is clear from the 'range' section on page 89. Orions spear however doesn't have such a profile, it doesn't have a range; what it has is an ability. When you choose to use that ability, you use that profile. The profile is simply a way to tell us how that one ability works, not how the entire item works. This ability could have been applied to any item. If they would choose to apply it to a dispell scroll you could use that scroll to make bolt thrower attacks, but it wouldn't stop it from being a dispell scroll. It would be nice if you could react to the difference of being a bow and the ability to use an item that has ability which has the workings of a bow.

Instead you can argue it's not an ability. This is of course what you have been implying all along, but I honestly don't know how you can do that. It is indeed a difference in interpretation but I don't understand it. "item X can be used to ...", not 'is' used, but 'can be' used. Surely they imply something differnt. I feel that if you can argue against that though, you should than also respond to Dementian's remark that a bolt thrower allready ignores armour, so why than give it the rule again?

jester006
25-05-2014, 22:44
Good, I hope you realise this is very different from what you have been claiming up untill now, which was that a close combat weapon needs a range that is 'combat'. It doesn't, it just needs the absence of a range that is more than zero. I'm glad we are in agreement here now.

I have been claiming that the Spear of Kurnous is a "missile weapon" because it has a range that isn't "combat". That is different than saying a hand weapon is not a "missile weapon" because it does not qualify to be one. Its using the same rules and logic to come to those separate conclusions.


Orions spear however doesn't have such a profile, it doesn't have a range; what it has is an ability. When you choose to use that ability, you use that profile. The profile is simply a way to tell us how that one ability works, not how the entire item works.

Incorrect. The Spear does indeed have a profile.


This ability could have been applied to any item. If they would choose to apply it to a dispell scroll you could use that scroll to make bolt thrower attacks, but it wouldn't stop it from being a dispell scroll. It would be nice if you could react to the difference of being a bow and the ability to use an item that has ability which has the workings of a bow.

You're right in that an item can be given the classification of being a "missile weapon". But once it has the classification of being a "missile weapon" it cannot be used in close combat unless otherwise stated. Once again I refer to the Dwarves Master Rune of Flight.


Instead you can argue it's not an ability. This is of course what you have been implying all along, but I honestly don't know how you can do that. It is indeed a difference in interpretation but I don't understand it. "item X can be used to ...", not 'is' used, but 'can be' used. Surely they imply something differnt. I feel that if you can argue against that though, you should than also respond to Dementian's remark that a bolt thrower allready ignores armour, so why than give it the rule again?

I never said the Spear of Kurnous being used as a bolt thrower wasn't an ability, nor am I implying that it isn't an ability. I am using the profile it gives us to classify it as a "missile weapon". Again, unless a "missile weapon" does have an ability or special rule that can allow it to be used in close combat, you can't. To address you bringing up the "can be used", they put that part in there so you can just look up in the main rule book how a bolt thrower works with having to restate all those rules all over again in the entry for the Spear of Kurnous (saves GW money on printing).

As to Dementian's remark, just because something can be shot like a bolt thrower doesn't mean it is one. GW may have put the ignore armor saves portion in there to prevent people from saying something like, "The Spear of Kurnous may shoot like a bolt thrower, but it doesn't say it ignores armor saves like one."

But that is just a hunch. My point from all of these posts is that GW needs to do a better job with its wording. Please trust me, I believe that the Spear should be used in close combat. But looking at the rules and previous rulings of similar magic weapons, I have to lean towards the Spear being a "missile weapon".

Da GoBBo
25-05-2014, 23:50
I have been claiming that the Spear of Kurnous is a "missile weapon" because it has a range that isn't "combat". That is different than saying a hand weapon is not a "missile weapon" because it does not qualify to be one.

Yes I did misrepresent you there. Sorry about that.


As to Dementian's remark, just because something can be shot like a bolt thrower doesn't mean it is one.

And yet that is exactely what you are claiming, and what me and others were arguing against. Apart from that, the rule doesn't just say it can be shot like a bolt thrower; it says it can be used to make shooting attacks following the rules for bolt throwers. That would include ignore armour. The only reason the profile is given is because it's different from the standard bolt thrower profile.

jester006
26-05-2014, 00:08
Apart from that, the rule doesn't just say it can be shot like a bolt thrower; it says it can be used to make shooting attacks following the rules for bolt throwers. That would include ignore armour. The only reason the profile is given is because it's different from the standard bolt thrower profile.

Actually, the only part where it says a bolt thrower ignores armor saves is in it's special rules under its profile. Since the profiles for the Spear of Kurnous and a bolt thrower are different, I can see where GW had to thrown in that last bit about the Spear ignoring armor saves. I don't know why they didn't put that in the Spear's profile; and stating the Spear ignoring armor save separately does support the suggestion of the Spear being able to be used in close combat, but that can only be thought of as a theory right now. Not saying my conclusion isn't a theory too, but there's more evidence (in my opinion) that supports the Spear being a missile weapon that cannot be used in close combat.

Da GoBBo
26-05-2014, 00:35
... I can see where GW had to thrown in that last bit about the Spear ignoring armor saves. I don't know why they didn't put that in the Spear's profile ...

Hmmm yes, I see what you mean. They replaced the profile with one that doesn't have the rule, and as such removed the rule to ignore armour and had to give that back to us. That is weird way to go about it. Than again if it is a close combat weapon this way of wording it is the easiest way to give ignore armour to both close combat and ranged attacks.

jester006
26-05-2014, 00:41
Hmmm yes, I see what you mean. They replaced the profile with one that doesn't have the rule, and as such removed the rule to ignore armour and had to give that back to us. That is weird way to go about it. Than again if it is a close combat weapon this way of wording it is the easiest way to give ignore armour to both close combat and ranged attacks.

I do agree with you. In the end, GW will have to come out with an Errata/FAQ to settle this. For casual play, I have no problem if someone wants to use it as both a close combat and missile weapon. But for tournaments, since there is a lot of grey areas for this weapon, people will have to submit to the ruling of the tournament judge at this time; which can differ from judge to judge since there are plenty of things to support both rulings.

orionwoodking
26-05-2014, 07:53
Ok, I would like to mention that the wording for both the Reaver Bow and the Moon Bow are completely different to Orion's spear, and Orion's spear is worded completely differently to every other bow in the WE army book. I have given parts of the HE magical bows and Hawks Talon (Orion's other magical weapon) for comparison, for those who do not have easy access to both books.

The Reaver Bow's only text is it's shooting profile.
The Moon Bow: "Magic Weapon. The moon bow is a bolt thrower with the profile given below", so it is explicitly stated as being a bolt thrower at all times.

So for those who are using the precedent idea, I respectfully disagree on the grounds that "CAN" has been used when stating the rules of the spear.

Hawks Talon: "Magic Weapon. The hawk's talon is a missile weapon"
Spear of Kurnous: "Magic Weapon. The Spear of Kurnous CAN be used to make shooting attacks using the same rules as a bolt thrower with the profile below"

The use of CAN to me is like saying "if a model that CAN make a move of 10", it MUST make a move of 10" (exactly)" which is not the case as a model (Orion) with a weapon that can be thrown (the Spear of Kurnous), must only be thrown.

As for stating that the profile listed is the profile which the weapon takes, I would like to reference you to the Bretonnian Army Book (p61) the Wyrmlance, which is not specifically listed as a lance and is therefore a hand weapon. But the main point of reference is that it allows you to do a breath weapon at s3, which has a ranged profile, meaning that with your logic, the only profile that is stated on this weapon is ranged, and therefore it must be a ranged weapon? and is the answer the same if it said "may make a breath weapon with the profile given below?

Going back to the actual weapon, I agree with the person who said this is like an ability, that can be switched on and off as needed

And finally in closing, if the writers did want it to be a hand weapon that could be also used as a bolt thrower, this would be the way I believe they would write it but it really does need an errata to be clear.

jester006
26-05-2014, 17:14
Ok, I would like to mention that the wording for both the Reaver Bow and the Moon Bow are completely different to Orion's spear, and Orion's spear is worded completely differently to every other bow in the WE army book. I have given parts of the HE magical bows and Hawks Talon (Orion's other magical weapon) for comparison, for those who do not have easy access to both books.

The Reaver Bow's only text is it's shooting profile.
The Moon Bow: "Magic Weapon. The moon bow is a bolt thrower with the profile given below", so it is explicitly stated as being a bolt thrower at all times.

What I was pointing out by referencing the Reaver Bow is that there was nothing that stated it was a ranged weapon other than its profile (just like the Spear); and using the same reasoning of the people who are saying the Spear can be used in melee, the Reaver Bow can be as well.

Now for the Moon Bow, if you honestly treated it just like a bolt thrower, then one could argue that Alith Anar then follows all the rules for war machines.


So for those who are using the precedent idea, I respectfully disagree on the grounds that "CAN" has been used when stating the rules of the spear.

Hawks Talon: "Magic Weapon. The hawk's talon is a missile weapon"
Spear of Kurnous: "Magic Weapon. The Spear of Kurnous CAN be used to make shooting attacks using the same rules as a bolt thrower with the profile below"

The use of CAN to me is like saying "if a model that CAN make a move of 10", it MUST make a move of 10" (exactly)" which is not the case as a model (Orion) with a weapon that can be thrown (the Spear of Kurnous), must only be thrown.

For this I would like to reference the Dwarves' Master Rune of Flight. Its a rune that turns a hand weapon into a missile weapon with a range of 12". The very last sentence, however, makes a clear statement that it can still be used in close combat. So why wasn't this stipulation put in the Spear of Kurnous? Most likely its due to GW inconsistencies.


As for stating that the profile listed is the profile which the weapon takes, I would like to reference you to the Bretonnian Army Book (p61) the Wyrmlance, which is not specifically listed as a lance and is therefore a hand weapon. But the main point of reference is that it allows you to do a breath weapon at s3, which has a ranged profile, meaning that with your logic, the only profile that is stated on this weapon is ranged, and therefore it must be a ranged weapon? and is the answer the same if it said "may make a breath weapon with the profile given below?

A breath weapon is not a missile weapon. It is a special rule that allows the model with it to make a special attack. A "breath weapon" does not have a profile so it cannot be classified as a "missile weapon". It is a shooting attack, but that does not make it a "missile weapon"



And finally in closing, if the writers did want it to be a hand weapon that could be also used as a bolt thrower, this would be the way I believe they would write it but it really does need an errata to be clear.

Absolutely. Until GW comes out with one, people will continue to debate about this. This particular debate has been very constructive in my opinion. Everyone posting here has been very civil and arguing their point rather effectively. It has at the least gotten me to review all the other army books' magic items to see if there are any other anomalies.

Warrior of Naggaroth
26-05-2014, 18:23
After looking at the arguments in this thread, I actually think the master rune of flight is an argumen FOR using the spear of Kurnous as a close combat weapon.

Normally, ranged weapons cant be used to make close combat attacks. That much is clear. But, the master rune of flight gives an EXCEPTION, and says that the missile weapon CAN be used in close combat.

Also, normally, magic weapons are hand weapons and can therefore only be used in close combat. But, the spear of Kurnous gives an EXCEPTION, and says that the weapon CAN be used to make ranged attacks.

Do you see my point? I'm sorry if I sound rude.

jester006
26-05-2014, 18:39
Also, normally, magic weapons are hand weapons and can therefore only be used in close combat. But, the spear of Kurnous gives an EXCEPTION, and says that the weapon CAN be used to make ranged attacks.

Do you see my point? I'm sorry if I sound rude.

You don't sound rude at all, but thanks for making the clarification :) . Thing with the Master Rune of Flight is that it turns the magic hand weapon into a "missile weapon" due to the rune giving the weapon a profile with a range that isn't "combat", and missile weapons cannot be used in close combat. The last sentence of the rune, however, makes an exception to this by clearly stating that this particular rune does not prevent the weapon from being used in close combat.

The Spear of Kurnous is given a profile with a range that isn't "combat" (turning it into a missile weapon), but there is no statement or special rule that allows it to be used in close combat. As I've stated in earlier posts, I do agree that it is intended for the Spear of Kurnous to be used in close combat.

3eland
26-05-2014, 18:50
"Magic Weapon. The Spear of Kinross can be used to make shooting attacks using the same rules as a bolt thrower with the profile below. This attack can be made if Orion moves (but not if he marches)."


Using the rules for a bolt thrower armor saves are already not allowed against the shooting attack which means the follow up rule that

"Armour saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by the Spear of Kurnous." would be referring to the wounds caused in close combat.

As many people have said a magic weapon without a type is a handweapon. And to be able to make a shooting attack is not the same as being a ranged weapon.

Not entirely true (and apologies to those who already brought this up.. half of the posts here are nothing but fluant words to make people sound smart).

My Stegadon has a giant Bow that says:


Instead of firing another missile weapon in the Shooting phase, one of the Skink Crew may fire the giant bow. This is a bolt thrower with the profile given below. The giant bow can be fired if the Stegadon moves (but not if it marches).

<Profile for giant bow>

Armour saves are not permitted against Wounds caused by a giant bow. If the bow rolls a 6 (goes on to explain the lustria poison rule).

Does this mean I can use it in combat too? I'd think not. So to assume you can use the spear in close combat because it mentions you cannot take saves from it is absurd.


EDIT: I'd like to just note I am neither for or against it being a CC weapon. I just don't think playing with words assuming it means something is the correct way of going about it.

dementian
26-05-2014, 19:47
Not entirely true (and apologies to those who already brought this up.. half of the posts here are nothing but fluant words to make people sound smart).

My Stegadon has a giant Bow that says:



Does this mean I can use it in combat too? I'd think not. So to assume you can use the spear in close combat because it mentions you cannot take saves from it is absurd.


EDIT: I'd like to just note I am neither for or against it being a CC weapon. I just don't think playing with words assuming it means something is the correct way of going about it.

But the Giant Bow is a giant bow not a magic weapon :-P

3eland
26-05-2014, 19:50
But the Giant Bow is a giant bow not a magic weapon :-P

Yes it is lol. I just meant the whole playing with its description thing. I know I cannot use the Giant bow in combat. Although... nothing would stop the skinks from firing it down into the ranks of the enemies...

Landonelf
26-05-2014, 21:52
Interesting tidbit that puts this argument to bed for me.

In the Army list, Durthu, a special character this is ALSO a monster, has a "hand weapon" under his equipment.

Orion does not have any such equipment listed. He simply has his magic items listed.

This demonstrates a clear intent by the writers for Orion to fight with the spear in combat. Every other special character in the book has some kind of mundane equipment listed for melee combat.

Not only does this support the "spear as a combat weapon" argument, it brings up the point that Orion may in fact HAVE to fight with the Spear, as he doesn't have any other to use in close combat!

Starlive
27-05-2014, 09:42
Though I consider Orion's spear to be it's CC weapon, the Ancient Treeman (and the Rare one too, for that matter) are also NOT given base weapon in my book.


So, a rule lawyer would not consider your argument relevant enough, I'm afraid.


Too much loopholes here.


I concur a FAQ is needed if you expect the referees to all have the same reading.

Landonelf
27-05-2014, 11:42
Though I consider Orion's spear to be it's CC weapon, the Ancient Treeman (and the Rare one too, for that matter) are also NOT given base weapon in my book.


So, a rule lawyer would not consider your argument relevant enough, I'm afraid.


Too much loopholes here.


I concur a FAQ is needed if you expect the referees to all have the same reading.


Durthu, a special character monster (thats also a treeman) has a hand weapon listed while Treemen Ancients and Treemen do not. Most monsters in 8th edition books dont have HW listed but EVERY special character does regardless of troop type. (At least in the 5 books i own). Lets make sure we compare apples to apples. Special characters are their own thing IMHO.

Heck, Durthu is even specifically named as carrying a magic sword but its listed as a hand weapon for clarity.

I will be playing it as a melee weapon in the meantime, but a FAQ is clearly needed.

jester006
27-05-2014, 13:08
Durthu, a special character monster (thats also a treeman) has a hand weapon listed while Treemen Ancients and Treemen do not. Most monsters in 8th edition books dont have HW listed but EVERY special character does regardless of troop type. (At least in the 5 books i own). Lets make sure we compare apples to apples. Special characters are their own thing IMHO.

But you cannot enforce the rules differently just because they are special characters. Special characters may indeed have rules that are unique to themselves, but ALL special characters are subject to the same rules as a normal rank and file soldier.


Heck, Durthu is even specifically named as carrying a magic sword but its listed as a hand weapon for clarity.

I will be playing it as a melee weapon in the meantime, but a FAQ is clearly needed.

Where are you getting the part where Durthu is specifically named as carrying a magic sword? I agree that his entry has him wielding a hand weapon, but that is not what gives him magical attacks; the Forest Spirit is what's granting him that.

Da GoBBo
27-05-2014, 13:31
Orion does not have any such equipment listed. He simply has his magic items listed.

All models have a handweapon though (p.88) whether it is given in the unitentry or not.

theunwantedbeing
27-05-2014, 13:45
All models have a handweapon though (p.88) whether it is given in the unitentry or not.

That and a number of special characters have no weapon listed, nor do they own a magical weapon.
So if we follow his logic then such characters are incapable of making close combat attacks.

Iron_Lord
27-05-2014, 13:55
Where are you getting the part where Durthu is specifically named as carrying a magic sword?

I think he's talking about the background bit- how Durthu goes to the great magesmith Daith and asks him to make a sword.

jester006
27-05-2014, 14:07
I think he's talking about the background bit- how Durthu goes to the great magesmith Daith and asks him to make a sword.

Gotch ya. He may have a magic sword in his story and background, but for purposes of the game and rules you cannot use "fluff". I am not trying to be mean or condescending, just trying to be as straight forward as possible.

Starlive
27-05-2014, 14:15
That and a number of special characters have no weapon listed, nor do they own a magical weapon.


Well, not in the WE book. There, every character is given its basic equipment. Even Drycha got a basic weapon. Every character except the Treeman Ancient.
(Him and Durthu being the closest to Orion since they are all Monster/Special char)


So if we follow his logic then such characters are incapable of making close combat attacks.

Or they fight bare handed, proving their high coolness and mighty badass attitude.

orionwoodking
29-05-2014, 00:46
So if we follow his logic then such characters are incapable of making close combat attacks.

We are saying that there is an argument over whether or not Orion's weapon counts as a hand weapon and every other special character, and that almost every other listing has at least one hand weapon listed in their profile. Which (depending on your interpretation) suggests that either

(1) The Spear of Kurnous is a hand weapon, or
(2) He has a hand weapon and it is not listed, like the Treeman.

Personally I think that if (2) was correct, durthu would not have a hand weapon listed either, so I personally believe that this supports the fact that the spear is a hand weapon

Da GoBBo
29-05-2014, 10:41
Even if Orions Spear is a handweapon, he still has a mundane handweapon too, whether it's listed or not.

Ludaman
29-05-2014, 23:39
My thoughts: even if he gets a no armor save spear he's still to expensive to be a good choice, so using RAI and the fact that I'd be happy if my opponent sunk his points into Orion, he can have the spear in CC.

Most of the time RAW is important only at tournaments, and at most tournaments near me Special Characters are still banned. If they're not then good luck with the individual decisions your local tournament organizer makes.

If you really want to use Orion and feel like you're being robbed if he doesn't deny armor saves, tell whoever is denying you to stop being a dork.

These suggestions will have to do until 2017 when the book gets FAQ'd.

Odin
30-05-2014, 08:26
My thoughts: even if he gets a no armor save spear he's still to expensive to be a good choice, so using RAI and the fact that I'd be happy if my opponent sunk his points into Orion, he can have the spear in CC.

Most of the time RAW is important only at tournaments, and at most tournaments near me Special Characters are still banned. If they're not then good luck with the individual decisions your local tournament organizer makes.

If you really want to use Orion and feel like you're being robbed if he doesn't deny armor saves, tell whoever is denying you to stop being a dork.

These suggestions will have to do until 2017 when the book gets FAQ'd.

Yup, this is very true. You could cut 100 points off and he'd still be overpriced.

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