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View Full Version : can someone explain the glade rider ambush hate?



mattieice
16-05-2014, 18:08
I played my first game with wood elves last week and got 1 unit of 5 glade riders. they showed up on turn 2 and were able to kill an empire engineer right off the bat. they were then massacred by a hellblaster. however, in my next list i intend on getting 2 units of 5.

now my question is, why is ambush seen as such a detriment to this unit? with 2 units you have an 88.9% chance of at least 1 unit showing up on turn 2 and beyond. They show up behind enemy lines and are able to shoot immediately. why the insistance that this unit needs to be deployed with the rest of the army? you have wild riders, sisters of the thorn, warhawk riders, eagles, and characters on eagles that function as fast cavalry. it's great to be able to have glade riders be a unique function. am i missing something here?

Alltaken
16-05-2014, 18:10
They dont allways show up turn 2, you cant vanguard with them, and their job as redirectors is diminished

From my servoskull

theunwantedbeing
16-05-2014, 18:28
They dont allways show up turn 2, you cant vanguard with them, and their job as redirectors is diminished

Basically that, they're Fast Cavalry that don't get to behave as Fast Cavalry (at least to start with) so this vexes players.

Ultimate Life Form
16-05-2014, 18:37
They're not the same as before, so obviously, they're worse.

minionboy
16-05-2014, 18:47
Not being able to predict when they show up and the earliest they can really start redirecting is by turn 3? Basically they've become expensive warmachine hunters that don't come in when you need them, and at best are going to charge a warmachine on turn 3. Also, unlike 40k, they do not automatically come in on turn 4, so if they don't come in until turn 5, they will only get 1 charge, and if they wait until turn 6, then they'll get 5 bow shots. The worst is that if they don't come on, your opponent gets credit for killing them, so not only did you not get to use your ~150 point unit all game, but your opponent also gains 150 points for not doing anything, which basically means you're playing at a 300 point deficit.

mattieice
16-05-2014, 19:05
Not being able to predict when they show up and the earliest they can really start redirecting is by turn 3?

like i said, there's a 90% chance of at least 1 unit of them appearing on turn 2 if you buy 2 units. It's even higher if you buy 3 units. and you can redirect on turn two if you have them appear on the side of the board and move them into position. They still move 9" and can free reform.


Basically they've become expensive warmachine hunters that don't come in when you need them, and at best are going to charge a warmachine on turn 3.

They're fantastic at warmachine hunting actually. Buy them poison arrows and they might even kill it with shooting on turn two. If not you can charge it on turn 3 or at least force the opponent to waste shots on them since they're behind the battle line. They're also fantastic at shooting at lone characters and positioning for future turns since they free reform.


Also, unlike 40k, they do not automatically come in on turn 4, so if they don't come in until turn 5, they will only get 1 charge, and if they wait until turn 6, then they'll get 5 bow shots. The worst is that if they don't come on, your opponent gets credit for killing them, so not only did you not get to use your ~150 point unit all game, but your opponent also gains 150 points for not doing anything, which basically means you're playing at a 300 point deficit.

That would be an enormous statistical anomaly since you have a 90% chance of at least one of them showing up each turn. If it happens and they don't appear, tough luck try again next time. To write off the unit because of a roughly 2-3% chance is just not understanding probability. You also have tons of other options to fulfill that vanilla fast cavalry role.

HurrDurr
16-05-2014, 20:04
Close combat can yield a ton of victory points if you beat and rundown a unit that is only missing 25% casualties. Shooting has to shoot them down to the last man or see them flee off the board. Point being that shooting is finicky and all about cost effectiveness since you mostly are shooting mathhammer at people.

For the 110pnt unit of 5 you have even more expensive gladeguard for no greater hitting power(every chance to fire at close range cancels out with movement every turn).

High movement and shooting behind enemy lines are both very well covered in the book(more is better but you have to qualify gladeriders over the current "champs" of those roles)

Those are some of the problems with the unit once it is on the board. Ambush automatically costs you 1/6 of your shots that you paid top dollar for since you may come on turn 2, this greatly effects the mathhammer of your shooting phase.

What are the benefits of ambusher?

You can deploy on any board edge, which is great for units that don't have good movement tools like a 12" vanguard followed by an 18" march with first turn shooting. By turn 2 you can move up to 48", you are basically where an ambusher would want to be with an extra turn of shooting. Yes ambush could potentially let you bypass a blockade but how many armies can castle up with heavy WE shooting coming down on them, but that's also a gamble that alone doesn't justify their cost.

Ambushing can potentially spring up a unit on the opposite end of the board where a lone cannon or something else may have been deployed uncontested. So maybe every list can take just 5 hagriders with no unit command options.

The downside to ambushers, they might be late. And as I've said before, good positioning will be required to make up for the loss instead of being a bonus. There goes the one potential benefit of ambush. This is assuming you plan to charge things otherwise you absolutely do not care for ambushing.

I won't count the extremely unlikely chance that they never show up, but a 33% chance to fail on turn 2 and a 10% chance on turn 3 is a lot of unreliability for the price you pay.

I'm not familiar enough with snob/emo elves to know their fast cav stats, but from what little bits and pieces I have read they may have slightly worse shooting power but reduced cost/better equipment.

That's my unorganized rant on the subject.

infamousme
16-05-2014, 20:15
I'm pretty sure that you can't use wild riders as a typical fast cavalry unit (itp so no fleeing from charges). Warhawk riders are quite expensive(points wise) and eagles are rare, so they take away from your waywaychers and treeman. My opinion might be off base as i have yet to play 8th edition.

Sent from my LG-L38C using Tapatalk 2

mattieice
16-05-2014, 20:26
what about the fact that they can't be shot until they show up? if you get the second turn, they could be dead before they even get to move. with ambush, you are guaranteed at least one turn of shooting instead of the potential for them to be wiped before they get their 18" march. t3 6+ save is not exactly the toughest of units. ambush also sets you up for devastating rear charges and gives you a second chance if you got outmaneuvered by your opponent's deployment.

Ramius4
16-05-2014, 20:30
That would be an enormous statistical anomaly since you have a 90% chance of at least one of them showing up each turn.

How do you figure that two dice rolls needing a 4+ equals a 90% probability? I'm no math whiz, but that seems like an absurdly false calculation.

iamjack42
16-05-2014, 20:43
How do you figure that two dice rolls needing a 4+ equals a 90% probability? I'm no math whiz, but that seems like an absurdly false calculation.

Isn't it a 3+?

Ultimate Life Form
16-05-2014, 20:50
How do you figure that two dice rolls needing a 4+ equals a 90% probability? I'm no math whiz, but that seems like an absurdly false calculation.

Well, 4+ equals a 50% probability already, but you roll two of them, so the chances of it happening are pretty high - obviously less than 100% but far higher than 50%. I'm no math whiz either (as in I can't back it up with actual equations and such), but I don't find it hard to believe.

Ramius4
16-05-2014, 20:51
Isn't it a 3+?

I would check my rulebook but I am at work (working very hard as you can see :shifty: )

I'm fairly certain that you need a 4+ on turn 2, 3+ on turn 3, etc. etc.


Well, 4+ equals a 50% probability already, but you roll two of them, so the chances of it happening are pretty high - obviously less than 100% but far higher than 50%. I'm no math whiz either (as in I can't back it up with actual equations and such), but I don't find it hard to believe.

I cannot back it up with the math either, but it seems logical that it would end up at 75%. Where's Avian when you need him? :p

theunwantedbeing
16-05-2014, 20:56
I cannot back it up with the math either, but it seems logical that it would end up at 75%.

Now do the math for the 3+, it gives you a percentage of what the OP quoted in their initial post.

ihavetoomuchminis
16-05-2014, 20:57
They're not the same as before, so obviously, they're worse.

This. People are afraid of change. All armiess have to be played the same way or they are crap. Call it lack of imagination or poor tactics if you wish. I find ambushing riders to be inmense in the wood elf army context.

Ultimate Life Form
16-05-2014, 20:58
I cannot back it up with the math either, but it seems logical that it would end up at 75%. Where's Avian when you need him? :p

Well, you see... probabilities don't necessarily work the way one would think. I suck at math, and my last math class was long ago but I found statistics interesting so quite a lot kept sticking in the back of my head; knowledge I find useful for employing in dice-driven tabletop.

If there's anything I have learned at school then the fact that math is not subject to logic. :p

CariadocThorne
16-05-2014, 21:19
This. People are afraid of change. All armiess have to be played the same way or they are crap. Call it lack of imagination or poor tactics if you wish. I find ambushing riders to be inmense in the wood elf army context.

Or perhaps people want to know that they will be able to use the unit they paid for. At a time when it actually does some good.

If I drop other units from my list to make room for gladeriders, I want them on the table from turn 1, because I have specific tactics I want to use them in which need them on the table at the start.

Mainly people hate it because they don't get a choice whether to use it, which is ridiculous design.

mattieice
16-05-2014, 21:25
I would check my rulebook but I am at work (working very hard as you can see :shifty: )

I'm fairly certain that you need a 4+ on turn 2, 3+ on turn 3, etc. etc.



I cannot back it up with the math either, but it seems logical that it would end up at 75%. Where's Avian when you need him? :p

First turn it's N/A, every turn after that It's a 3+

I am also working hard :P

Thank Gork it's Friday

Ultimate Life Form
16-05-2014, 21:29
This one might come in handy.

http://www.easycalculation.com/statistics/learn-multiple-event-probability.php

Probability to get 3+ on 2 dice is 89% (approx).

Ramius4
16-05-2014, 21:30
Or perhaps people want to know that they will be able to use the unit they paid for. At a time when it actually does some good.

If I drop other units from my list to make room for gladeriders, I want them on the table from turn 1, because I have specific tactics I want to use them in which need them on the table at the start.

Mainly people hate it because they don't get a choice whether to use it, which is ridiculous design.

Just quoted for truth.

There's nothing wrong at all with the Ambushers rule itself. It's the lack of an option to use it I find terrible. Ambushers are totally fine if that's what you want. But being forced to use it actually limits their usefulness, rather than expanding upon it.


First turn it's N/A, every turn after that It's a 3+

I am also working hard :P

Thank Gork it's Friday

Ah, ok so it is 3+. I must be thinking of the last Dwarf book and the Miner's Underground Advance rule or something.

It's Friday, but I just got to work an hour ago. Should be an easy night though. I have a cake job that allows me to surf the internet about 50% of the time, and get paid well to do it :p When the stuff hits the fan here though... I work pretty damn hard.


This one might come in handy.

http://www.easycalculation.com/statistics/learn-multiple-event-probability.php

It might if I didn't start getting sleepy after reading the first sentence or two ;)

HurrDurr
16-05-2014, 23:20
Ambush is a great rule, it's amazing in the wood elf army........... just not on something that I deem essential to my strategy.

If they gave 5-8 man units of dryads ambushing at something insane like +5ppm I would consider it still, on my expensive(maybe overpriced?) gladeriders? Not a chance, I found the metal portion of a wildriders set on ebay, stuck the metal horse heads on my glade riders and ripped the plastic riders off, this book doesn't make me regret that decision one bit.

SpanielBear
17-05-2014, 00:43
There is one more job that ambushing glade riders can potentially fulfil- running down fleeing units. It's a niche role, and one that won't come into play very often, but it's there.

It has also been said that the classic, fast cav role that GR used to fill can now be undertaken by Sisters of the Thorn. For those that used the old book, they are a slave more expensive than GR used to be, but add a 4++, movement restricting magic and poison to the pot. If we accept that the re-directing role can be filled by Sisters, maybe there's an incentive to find the Glade Riders niche?

Ramius4
17-05-2014, 00:56
There is one more job that ambushing glade riders can potentially fulfil- running down fleeing units. It's a niche role, and one that won't come into play very often, but it's there.

Here's the thing. They already could already do that before.

Along with all the other roles people mention for Ambushers. War Machine hunting (already could as Fast Cav). Position for a flank or rear (already could as Fast Cav). Harrassment (already could as Fast Cav).

The biggest difference now being that they can't be counted on to do any of that before turn 3 at the earliest.

Getting behind the enemy is only really great if the enemy does happen to have war machines, or move or fire shooting units for you to go after since they typically only have the one turn to respond to it.


it has also been said that the classic, fast cav role that GR used to fill can now be undertaken by Sisters of the Thorn. For those that used the old book, they are a slave more expensive than GR used to be, but add a 4++, movement restricting magic and poison to the pot. If we accept that the re-directing role can be filled by Sisters, maybe there's an incentive to find the Glade Riders niche?

Yeah, they certainly can perform that role. But they're also a Special choice rather than Core, so there's that to consider.

CariadocThorne
17-05-2014, 01:00
There is one more job that ambushing glade riders can potentially fulfil- running down fleeing units. It's a niche role, and one that won't come into play very often, but it's there.

It has also been said that the classic, fast cav role that GR used to fill can now be undertaken by Sisters of the Thorn. For those that used the old book, they are a slave more expensive than GR used to be, but add a 4++, movement restricting magic and poison to the pot. If we accept that the re-directing role can be filled by Sisters, maybe there's an incentive to find the Glade Riders niche?

A lot of people are looking to sisters as a bunker for a mounted weaver and/or bsb, meaning they don't want to use them that way.

Alltaken
17-05-2014, 02:43
This. People are afraid of change. All armiess have to be played the same way or they are crap. Call it lack of imagination or poor tactics if you wish. I find ambushing riders to be inmense in the wood elf army context.

Well, look at their rules and tell me what they are designed as. Look at it and it seems interesting fast cav redirectors with punch (bow or mele). Add ambushers and they're something else with a design that makes no sense

From my servoskull

Lord Dan
17-05-2014, 02:52
They're not the same as before, so obviously, they're worse.

Man, I needed a good laugh.

Wargamejunkie
17-05-2014, 05:48
As stated before it mostly comes from the lack of a choice on if it is used or not.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-05-2014, 07:56
But it seems nobody would ever use it....so whats the point in being optional.

Sanai
17-05-2014, 08:00
If I recall correctly, from discussions with people who are much better at maths than me, each dice roll is its own individual event unaffected by the previous dice roll. Rolling a 1 the first time does not make rolling a 6 the second time any more likely. The chances of rolling a 6 the second time is the same as the chance of rolling a 6 the first time.

Or something like that. Maths gives me a headache.

Ultimate Life Form
17-05-2014, 08:04
But it seems nobody would ever use it....so whats the point in being optional.

Options are options. It doesn't matter if they are used or not. Their mere existence broadens the range of possibilities tremendously. It allows players to customize the game as they see fit. This goes for any game, by the way. That's why I never understood why Sacred Spawnings were taken from Lizardmen. Everyone complained they were useless, but the simple fact that their impact on the game was limited meant they were fine. I could make a Tzunki-themed army or a Chotec-themed army or a Quetzl-themed army; it wouldn't matter, there was no "best" choice and my opponents would not object. Then GW came along and took them away seemingly to simply ruin my fun. Now I can field a vanilla army. Yeah, very exciting.

Lord Dan
17-05-2014, 08:16
If I recall correctly, from discussions with people who are much better at maths than me, each dice roll is its own individual event unaffected by the previous dice roll. Rolling a 1 the first time does not make rolling a 6 the second time any more likely. The chances of rolling a 6 the second time is the same as the chance of rolling a 6 the first time.

Or something like that. Maths gives me a headache.

Yes, they're independent of one another, but when looked at as a group that's not quite it works.

For example, a coin flip is a 50/50 shot at heads or tails. Each individual coin flip therefore yields a 50% chance of either result, however one would never argue that the odds of 1,000 heads in a row is the same as the odds for a single coin flip. On the contrary, it's .5^1000.

In any case, this is no different: there is a 33% chance that an ambushing unit will not show up on any given turn, though over the course of the game (5 turns, given that they can't come in turn 1) there is just a .3% chance that they won't show up - about one in every 300 games, for a single unit.

CariadocThorne
17-05-2014, 08:44
But it seems nobody would ever use it....so whats the point in being optional.

Well some strategies can make good use of it, like 0 drop avoidance armies (all gladeriders,scouts, waywatchers and waystalkers, no normal deployment, everything scouts or ambushes). Others might use it occasionally.

Personally I'd love having the option to outflank one of my gladerider units now and then. I'd only use it 1 game in 5 maybe, but it would be a nice option. With it being compulsory, I have 16 gladeriders unlikely to be used, and another 8 unassembled which are being kitbashed into Sisters of the Thorn.

DeathlessDraich
17-05-2014, 10:08
I played my first game with wood elves last week and got 1 unit of 5 glade riders. they showed up on turn 2 and were able to kill an empire engineer right off the bat. they were then massacred by a hellblaster. however, in my next list i intend on getting 2 units of 5.


Hi:)
1) Ambush is the best asset of this unit and is the only reason why GR are chosen but ... only if you wish to adopt a certain tactic or style of playing.

2) I've recently played DE vs WE and Ogres vs WE against an MSU list that had 6 units of GR. The WE player who had won tournaments with WE in 7th ed knew exactly what to do.
With just 3 woods on the battlefield he avoided combat completely, concentrated his shooting, took his losses on the chin while inflicting an almost equal amount of wounds.
Both games were drawn but they were Fantastic games - very tactical where DE had to resort to a manouevre I had never used before and even then 50 Witch elves with a Cauldron could only contrive 1 charge.

3) So go ahead and get 5 or 6 units of GR
- The hell blaster and warmachines - you need 18 shots (18 models with Hagbane) - just choose your magic arrows accordingly.

Good luck:)

Overtninja
17-05-2014, 11:12
People want as many cheap redirectors as possible, and are used to doing double-flee shenanigans with GR from back in 7th edition and before that. Also, because they ambush, you can't mess with your opponent's battle lines with them at the start, and people don't like units that have a chance to be useful instead of being definitely useful.

I think people really wanted the endless charge-screwing of previous incarnations of WE and were denied that from GR, and so they don't like them and, because people are people, they also don't want anyone else to like them either.

@DeathlessDraich - the problem with lists like the one you're describing is that they exist to force the draw and lack bite, so your game becomes an exercise in frustration instead of an actual match. From what I've heard no one really liked playing against WE last edition because of stuff just like that, where their army was slowly bled by arrows without ever being able to actually get into combat, for a very drawn-out non-match draw. Stuff like that might be fun in a 'haha I've wasted your time, suck it' kind of way or as some kind of tactical exercise, but I don't really see the point in playing this way any more. WE were given the tools to flat slaughter their opponents, so you don't have to play full-avoidance cruelty lists unless you like being that guy. :p

CariadocThorne
17-05-2014, 12:15
Gladeriders are still good in all out Sethayla style avoidance lists, but as Overtninja pointed out, that style of play is horrible for most other players to play against and I have always refused to play it because the game should be fun for both sides.

Part of the reason people dislike ambush is that gladerider got a lot better than in the last book, and would actually be good for more balanced lists as well, but ambusher prevents that.