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View Full Version : Who is actually going to buy a X Heldrake/Riptide/X spam list?



Death Korp
17-05-2014, 15:56
Hey all,

I'm intrigued about the 7th ed rules as all of you are. But one thing that is annoying is that people seem to expect that loads of people are going to throw all the rules out of the window and do these spam lists. My question is, would you/anyone you know create a list like this? Because in my 14 years of playing this game, I have encountered 2 net lists (even doing tournaments etc). Just because you can doesn't mean people will do it. I may be wrong, and loads of people will do these lists.

But, I have hope (somehow) from what I've seen from the heralds of doom from other X edition rumors that there is way too much over hyping/ despair.

I'm just miffed off that I have to buy ANOTHER rulebook to play the game I love. But that is minor!

Fox Of 9
17-05-2014, 16:22
The only time I ever expect to meet this sort of list is after 5 games at my mates house when I've won all 5 and he's a little tipsy and want to beat me just for the sake of it.. Apart from that, I really cant see it happening more than once a year to me. (if someone I don't know pulls this on me they won't be getting a second game.)


David.

duffybear1988
17-05-2014, 16:33
My local club has about 20 gamers. 2 of them already run riptide spam, 2 run taudar, 2 run tau with allied marines, 1 runs helldrake spam, 1 runs wave serpent spam, 1 runs beaststar and 1 runs screamerstar. It's totally varied if you don't mind fighting whichever 'star' is on offer that day. The fact is Unbound makes little difference when Battle Forged can already be exploited to such an extent.

Gonefishing
17-05-2014, 16:41
I wont! but then I quit when 6th came out, and judging from the 7th rumours so far - im increasing glad I did.

I would guess GW is hoping for plenty of people to do this however, they really need to sell those riptides ;)

DoctorTom
17-05-2014, 17:49
If someone is going to run an Imperial Knight army, they're pretty much going to have to spam.

Hawkkf
17-05-2014, 18:21
A player in my area already has 10 riptides (and a rvarna). He has stated that he won't play with spam outside of apocalypse level games or unless someone brings a crazy list that requires him to so so in response.

The thing is that we all want to play with whatever models we own and sometimes we just want to put a mark in the win column. I wonder how long it will be before temptation wins out?

xerxeshavelock
17-05-2014, 19:07
My local club has about 20 gamers. 2 of them already run riptide spam, 2 run taudar, 2 run tau with allied marines, 1 runs helldrake spam, 1 runs wave serpent spam, 1 runs beaststar and 1 runs screamerstar. It's totally varied if you don't mind fighting whichever 'star' is on offer that day. The fact is Unbound makes little difference when Battle Forged can already be exploited to such an extent.

Ouch! That's a fierce environment you got there!

Khornies & milk
17-05-2014, 19:28
I'm in a group of 52 gamers, mainly with IG, CSM, Eldar , and tons of SM Chapters, but with a mix of every other Army (multiples of) that has a Codex also. The most Riptides/Helldrakes that could be fielded by any 1 player would be 3, but I alone could field about 2 dozen Russes and quite a few could field close to that.
So spam-wise Leman Russes is what you'd see most common been fielded, but also a ton of transports - of every army's type.

No need to worry though because we don't play standard 40K except with the older Editions, otherwise it's only Apoc games, and they are very well thought out games that aren't 'take models off the board with a shovel'. We didn't/won't buy into 6th Ed let alone 7th.

Beppo1234
17-05-2014, 19:29
not me... but I would if I had the funds! Spamming is pretty expensive.

Sanai
17-05-2014, 19:47
If someone spends that much money, time and effort collecting and painting up the 11 Heldrakes you would need for 2000 points, least I can do is give him a game. Heck, if they were well painted I would WANT to see that army on the tabletop.

Andy089
17-05-2014, 19:52
Well, seems like I'll be "that guy". I won't buy helldrakes or Riptides. But I will buy Monoliths. I have one and I'll get 4 more. But then again I don't think Monoliths can be compared to Riptides or Helldrakes?

infamousme
17-05-2014, 20:11
I won't, i like my armies to look like armies. I wouldn't mind playing against riptide spam though. I think my dark eldar would do fine against it :D

Edit: for the record i only fought one riptide before. I tore it a new one in the first turn. Two double cannon venoms, two trueborn with splinter cannons, four blasterborn and a raiders dark lance popped it. This may not be normal, but that's my only experience.
As a reference, that's less firepower than would take out a tactical squad.
Sent from my LG-L38C using Tapatalk 2

duffybear1988
17-05-2014, 20:21
Ouch! That's a fierce environment you got there!

I actually missed off the guy who's building knights because I haven't seen what else he plans to take. Back at my previous club people took the deathstar and OP lists all the time as well. Of the 50 people I have played regularly since 5th edition arrived, about 35 of them regularly use/used OP lists most of the time. I've actually faced weaker armies in tournaments!

agurus1
17-05-2014, 20:50
I'm thinking bigger than that mate:

HQ:
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Power Armour, Pskyer Level 1 (Psychich Communion), Force Weapon, 3x Servo Skulls, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades

Elites:
4x Vindicare Assassins

4x Eversor Assassins

2x Callidus Assassins

1 Culexus Assassin

Fortifications:
Imperial Bunker with Void Shield and Icarus Lascannon

Sanai
17-05-2014, 22:27
I'd be curious to see an Astra Militarum army made up entirely of Wyrdwane Squads & Primaris Psykers, to represent a cabal of rogue psykers fleeing the Black Ships, and perhaps resorting to bargaining with Daemons to fend of their persecutors.

Loopstah
17-05-2014, 23:04
I'm planning on running my Armoured Company with no non-vehicle models.

So: Command Vanquisher, Commisar Vanquisher, 2x Thunderers, Eradicator, Destroyer, Exterminator, Avenger Fighter

7x tanks and a Fighter at 1500pts and it's battle-forged so the Thunderers, Eradicator and Exterminator all secure objectives.

Hopefully FW drop the tank prices to match the AM codex as I could fit in another tank then.

MajorWesJanson
17-05-2014, 23:26
He has stated that he won't play with spam outside of apocalypse level games or unless someone brings a crazy list that requires him to so so in response.

I do the same with my Warhound for escalation games. Since there are no differences in the weapon costs, I bring spares. If people are running things like Baneblades, on go the plasma blastgun and VMB. If the Revenant with pulsars or the crazy unbound Ctan come to play, so do the turbolaser arms.

Thoume
18-05-2014, 00:10
While I'm not too struck on the idea of unbound, I have thought of running MOBS of warbosses if things get out of hand here! Fit either 30 with little wargear or 20 kitted out in 2k... Maybe just warbosses with a cheap looted wagon each (unless you can take trukks on their own instead)... :D

Overlord Krycis
18-05-2014, 01:30
You may all hate me...but I love the idea of a Riptide spam army...I could convert them all up into Gundams and be very happy.

No-one else would be...but...meh. lol

Spell_of_Destruction
18-05-2014, 01:51
If someone wants to build a spam list it's not for me to criticize. If that's what gamers enjoy doing in an optimized environment then they can knock themselves out. Competitive play has always been about 'stretching the boundaries' of what is possible within the rules such that the FOC really is more of a guideline as to how an army should be created more than anything else. I think all this arguing over how unbound will unbalance the game ignores the fact that competitive play has always been largely about 'breaking' the game. Now the WAAC players have complete freedom to try whatever broken combos they can think of and the rest of us can enjoy games within the framework offered by the FOC.

All the complaining about having to 'turn down' games strikes me as a little childish. A game of 40k can take 2-3 hours which is a fair chunk of time. At the end of it I want to feel that the experience was worth the time investment and I expect my opponent to feel the same way. So it's not so much a case of 'turning down' games as it is about having a conversation with the other player. An obviously unbalanced game is a waste of my time and his.

In my old gaming group we all used to have multiple lists and we would agree match ups beforehand. We know each other's armies very well so we knew if a game was likely to be evenly matched, challenging or outright imbalanced. Sometimes an unbalanced game is fun and is necessary to understand your army's strengths and weaknesses. However, once that power balance has been established there is little point persevering with grossly uneven match ups.

DoctorTom
18-05-2014, 06:26
While I'm not too struck on the idea of unbound, I have thought of running MOBS of warbosses if things get out of hand here! Fit either 30 with little wargear or 20 kitted out in 2k... Maybe just warbosses with a cheap looted wagon each (unless you can take trukks on their own instead)... :D

If you use a Deff Dred army list, you can use Big Meks, who can take Junkas as a cheap transport that can have a free deff rolla on it.

ronin_cse
18-05-2014, 07:33
If someone spends that much money, time and effort collecting and painting up the 11 Heldrakes you would need for 2000 points, least I can do is give him a game. Heck, if they were well painted I would WANT to see that army on the tabletop.

Have to agree with this. I'd play them too within reason, if they brought this list against me every time the we'd have to have a talk.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Chrysalis
18-05-2014, 08:40
I don't think I'll play 7th ed. for the moment. But when I've read about the unbound thing, since I'm a big fan of Karandras & scorpions aspect warriors, I've been thinking about playing a force based only on them. I don't know if it qualifies for "spam" or "themed" force, but 2000pts of scorpions at 18ps from your opponents can certainly generate some pressure! :)

Sanai
18-05-2014, 08:45
That is a very cool idea Chrysalis. I could well imagine Karandaras turning up and summoning all of the Scorpions of a craftworld to do some mission.

WLBjork
18-05-2014, 09:35
Feel free.

Our club has enough models we can spam pretty much anything from previous editions.

Riptide spam? Ok, here's a AM army, with as many lascannons as I can stuff into it...

Still Standing
18-05-2014, 10:40
I am actually quite interested in making an unbound list. I want to run Ahriman and 8 Thousand Sons Sorcerors as the last remnants of my Horus Heresy Thousand Sons army. Sit at the back and fire Witch Fires and summon Daemons all game. :)

Shadeseraph
18-05-2014, 15:44
(Ahem)

40 Fusion Blaster Piranhas for me, thank you. All of them in individual units.
Now, if they were a bit cheaper...

Killgore
18-05-2014, 17:11
If someone spends that much money, time and effort collecting and painting up the 11 Heldrakes you would need for 2000 points, least I can do is give him a game. Heck, if they were well painted I would WANT to see that army on the tabletop.



Find someone with equal points in Ork aircraft and you will have one hell of a game, I only have three though :(

Slayer-Fan123
18-05-2014, 17:34
Everyone will according to Spiney and Balrog.

I plan to do a old school Destroyer Fleet. No troop tax means that these guys get more effective and don't have to compete for the Fast Attack slot with Wraiths and Scarabs.

Scammel
18-05-2014, 17:48
Everyone will according to Spiney and Balrog.

I plan to do a old school Destroyer Fleet. No troop tax means that these guys get more effective and don't have to compete for the Fast Attack slot with Wraiths and Scarabs.

You... don't see the irony of your own post?

I'm not buying a spam list myself. There's no mechanism for using them in 5th beyond asking an opponent very, very nicely.

hobojebus
18-05-2014, 17:54
It'll go like this "you want to play an all destroyer force? Sure let me get my 8 heldrakes out of my case".

Slayer-Fan123
18-05-2014, 22:51
You... don't see the irony of your own post?

I'm not buying a spam list myself. There's no mechanism for using them in 5th beyond asking an opponent very, very nicely.
What's so ironic? Without paying the Troop Tax and fighting over the Fast Attack slot, I can essentially bring all those damn Destroyers I got lying around as my "Troops". Destroyers are AI, Heavy Destroyers are AMC/AT/AA (iffy on the last one of course) and then Wraiths and Barges to top it all off.

Slayer-Fan123
18-05-2014, 22:54
It'll go like this "you want to play an all destroyer force? Sure let me get my 8 heldrakes out of my case".
Who even owns more than 5 Heldrakes? Granted the model is pretty cool. I'd say bring it on.

Scammel
18-05-2014, 23:26
What's so ironic?

'According to so-and-so, everyone is going to be spamming! Here's my spam list.'

Ssilmath
18-05-2014, 23:33
'According to so-and-so, everyone is going to be spamming! Here's my spam list.'

I think the argument that is being put forward is that the majority of players, or at least enough to dominate pick up gaming, are going to flock to Unbound and spam only the most powerful options available.

Theocracity
18-05-2014, 23:58
'According to so-and-so, everyone is going to be spamming! Here's my spam list.'

That gets back to the idea that it's only called spamming if the unit in question is OP. I don't think you'd call an Ork green tide force to be a spam list, even if all it's doing is spamming boyz. I'm not sure if a Destroyer spam list is OP or not, though.

Wolf Lord Balrog
19-05-2014, 06:08
That gets back to the idea that it's only called spamming if the unit in question is OP. I don't think you'd call an Ork green tide force to be a spam list, even if all it's doing is spamming boyz. I'm not sure if a Destroyer spam list is OP or not, though.

'Spam' is any repetition, 'cheese' is over-powered units. It is theoretically possible to have an army that is spam, but not cheese, is what I think you are getting at. But both are boring in the vast majority of cases.

hobojebus
19-05-2014, 12:21
Troops are never spam, green tide puts alot of models on the board but you can't call it op.

Three riptides however is spam because not every army can handle them.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
19-05-2014, 14:15
I was never much of a 40k player as fantasy and warmachine are my mainstays. However unbound looked cool to me because I would then be able to only spend money on the kits I wanted to without having to shell out for boring stuff. I'm disappointed to hear riptides are overpowered as I absolutely love the look of the kit amd fantasized about plopping down five or six gundams with different loadouts and paint schemes. However there would be no point if I'll earn only the scorn of my peers.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

Still Standing
19-05-2014, 18:16
Troops are never spam, green tide puts alot of models on the board but you can't call it op.

Three riptides however is spam because not every army can handle them.

So when I buy 6x 5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents, 5 Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents and a Farseer in 1500 points you wouldn't call it spam? That is 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 6 Troops.

HelloKitty
19-05-2014, 18:21
It thinks "spam" is used confusingly. It isnnot very smart so it will try to explain but it feels "spam" is repeating something. It does not matter how strong something is, if it is repeated then it would be spam.

The word spam gets used often to denote something very powerful and also repeated but is not used to denote less strong models being repeated.

Lord Damocles
19-05-2014, 18:25
Troops are never spam, green tide puts alot of models on the board but you can't call it op.
People did call Green Tide OP back when untouchable claw Nobs were a thing.

Historically, people have often complained about the spamming of powerful Troops choices (Necron Warriors, Black Guardians, Grey Hunters, Purifiers, Daemonettes etc.)


Three riptides however is spam because not every army can handle them.
Not every army can handle a Green Tide.

Daenerys Targaryen
19-05-2014, 18:30
I was never much of a 40k player as fantasy and warmachine are my mainstays. However unbound looked cool to me because I would then be able to only spend money on the kits I wanted to without having to shell out for boring stuff. I'm disappointed to hear riptides are overpowered as I absolutely love the look of the kit amd fantasized about plopping down five or six gundams with different loadouts and paint schemes. However there would be no point if I'll earn only the scorn of my peers.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

5-6 Riptides on their own, without ANY! support from the "usual suspects" such as Markerlights, 'Buffmanders', allied Divination psykers, etc... aren't so horrible.

It's a tough list yes, because it's very extreme being comprised of nothing but very sturdy MC's. However, most armies would stand a chance provided you also just don't play on one of the God-Emperor's finest football pitches!
Some LoS blocking terrain, good tactical movement, focusing your firepower, etc... can help even up the odds.
I'd be pretty confident that my non-optimised mono-Tzeentch Daemons could give a 5-6 Riptide list a real run for it's money for example! Hell, it might even be an absolute blast!

It only gets soul crushingly OP when you add some/all the supports that currently makes the Triptide lists super busted.

ronin_cse
19-05-2014, 23:17
Hell, it might even be an absolute blast!

With that many Riptides it most certainly would be! :D

Overlord Krycis
20-05-2014, 13:56
I was never much of a 40k player as fantasy and warmachine are my mainstays. However unbound looked cool to me because I would then be able to only spend money on the kits I wanted to without having to shell out for boring stuff. I'm disappointed to hear riptides are overpowered as I absolutely love the look of the kit amd fantasized about plopping down five or six gundams with different loadouts and paint schemes. However there would be no point if I'll earn only the scorn of my peers.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

That's why I wanted to do that list.
Seven samurai meets gundam wing sounds super cool to me.
Obviously I'd avoid the support elements that make triptide lists broken...I'm only interested in the stocking big anime suits lol.

Sir Didymus
20-05-2014, 18:11
It's a tough list yes, because it's very extreme being comprised of nothing but very sturdy MC's. However, most armies would stand a chance provided you also just don't play on one of the God-Emperor's finest football pitches!
Some LoS blocking terrain, good tactical movement, focusing your firepower, etc... can help even up the odds...

'scuse me, but I can't help to snigger a bit, whenever people bring up the 'just add more terrain'-argument to counter Riptides, as they actually thrive on the stuff. Being Jet Infantry actually allows the Riptides to take more advantage out of terrain than any opponent could. Its called Jump-Shoot-Jump and has been a tried and true tau tactic since the warpstorms broke around their planet.

That said, the Riptide-list would probably not only be, somewhat lackluster to play - having six units, that perform exactly the same, limits your choices in the extreme - but would suffer horribly against other list. Sure they'd wipe the floor with terminators and MEQ, but there are plenty of enemies, who doesn't rely on thick armour for protection, some with plenty of ID force weapons, some who don't care for high toughness, etc. However, it would just end up being an expensive version of Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Overlord Krycis
20-05-2014, 21:42
Or...here's a thought...you could play scenarios?
Or play in character.
Or set yourself up for cinematic explosive scenes worthy of a Michael Bay movie.

It doesn't all have to be about percieved effectiveness.

And this coming from someone who loves tournaments and competitive play.

Col. Dash
22-05-2014, 03:27
I seriously doubt TOs will allow Unbound lists. There is already an escape clause as GW itself even sees them as two different games. That being the case, friendly games likely will not see them unless its preplanned as it would cease to be friendly when one of these silly list appears.

Lord Xcapobl
22-05-2014, 08:39
Without having read all the pprevious replies, I will state my own answer.

Who is actually going to buy a X Heldrake/Riptide/X spam list?

The people who have more cash than braincells, especially when you keep in mind the rather obvious aversion most people on just about every forum have about those "X Heldrake/Riptide/X spam lists", stating they would just refuse to play against them. No insult intended here, but let's face it, the opinions on the "X Heldrake/Riptide/X spam lists" are rather clear. The first unbound tournament will probably be won by a "X Heldrake/Riptide/X spam list", after which the next unbound tournament will either have only one or two players, or a whole bunch of identical players with their own "X Heldrake/Riptide/X spam list", while the rest is having fun.

At least, that's my interpretation of all the feedback and opinions I have seen here on on just about every other forum I attend.

DaBigNob
22-05-2014, 17:36
Looking at the GW YouTube video titled "NEW! Warhammer 40,000: New army organisation options" linked here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JnMByJVUow&list=UUwdh3MTrFq3sXlB4ct8B-Fg

At 0:59 there is a screenshot of the "Choosing Your Army" rules section. It states in bold...

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

If someone shows up with a "spam list" that is just ridiculous and over the top, simply defer to the rules and choose not to agree to it. It's literally stated in black in white. There should be no illusion that players can just show up with any unbound list and have it be automatically agreed to and accepted by the other player.

Kung Fu Hamster
22-05-2014, 17:40
Yes, but some players have to walk ten miles through the snow, barefoot, uphill BOTH WAYS carting their models on their backs to their FLGS where they are mocked incessantly and beaten with sticks for not using a FOTM net list.

And they LIKE IT that way!


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hobojebus
22-05-2014, 17:44
Yes, but some players have to walk ten miles through the snow, barefoot, uphill BOTH WAYS carting their models on their backs to their FLGS where they are mocked incessantly and beaten with sticks for not using a FOTM net list.

And they LIKE IT that way!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oi I make the old man jokes around here sunny Jim.

Kung Fu Hamster
22-05-2014, 17:46
Well, quit yelling at cloud and get to it, old man! Or is Matlock on right now? :)


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DoctorTom
22-05-2014, 22:40
Yes, but some players have to walk ten miles through the snow, barefoot, uphill BOTH WAYS carting their models on their backs to their FLGS where they are mocked incessantly and beaten with sticks for not using a FOTM net list.

And they LIKE IT that way!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Only ten miles and beaten with sticks? You had it lucky. Back in the day, I had to walk from the United States to London, barefppt. without an air supply other than what little got trapped in my army cases which I would have to haul on a sledge behind me. The only food I'd get was gravel off the bottom of the ocean because the fish would steal everything else. Once in London I'd get cut to death with rusty razors, then zombified and only then would I get mocked incessantly for my list, not only because it was waterlogged. Then, after getting beaten (both physically and in game play) I'd have to walk home again from London to the United States.

And I considered myself fortunate to have even this.

Kung Fu Hamster
23-05-2014, 00:42
Only ten miles and beaten with sticks? You had it lucky. Back in the day, I had to walk from the United States to London, barefppt. without an air supply other than what little got trapped in my army cases which I would have to haul on a sledge behind me. The only food I'd get was gravel off the bottom of the ocean because the fish would steal everything else. Once in London I'd get cut to death with rusty razors, then zombified and only then would I get mocked incessantly for my list, not only because it was waterlogged. Then, after getting beaten (both physically and in game play) I'd have to walk home again from London to the United States.

And I considered myself fortunate to have even this.

How were you able to pull this off after working 26 hours at the mill every day?

DoctorTom
23-05-2014, 16:34
How were you able to pull this off after working 26 hours at the mill every day?

It wasn't easy.

Marshal
23-05-2014, 20:50
Hrm, thinking about it, I already own 3 Riptides, 2 Heldrakes, a knight, a Wraithlord and a Talos. I think that could make a fun and interesting list in itself. Hell, maybe I'll throw in a Stormraven or 2 while I'm at it...

Theocracity
23-05-2014, 22:58
Hrm, thinking about it, I already own 3 Riptides, 2 Heldrakes, a knight, a Wraithlord and a Talos. I think that could make a fun and interesting list in itself. Hell, maybe I'll throw in a Stormraven or 2 while I'm at it...

This list is only legal if you have the song Monster Mash playing on repeat the entire time it's on the table :D.

Tay051173096
23-05-2014, 23:09
The group I play in limit one flyer per match unless stated other wise. We have several younger players and want to keep the club active.

Must admit I am getting a second heldrake soon, I love painting them.

Need to save up for an air brush...

DoctorTom
24-05-2014, 05:42
Hrm, thinking about it, I already own 3 Riptides, 2 Heldrakes, a knight, a Wraithlord and a Talos. I think that could make a fun and interesting list in itself. Hell, maybe I'll throw in a Stormraven or 2 while I'm at it...

Needs a Revenant Titan to make the ensemble compleat.

Killgore
24-05-2014, 06:36
Needs a Revenant Titan to make the ensemble compleat.


Not so scary now D strength is more reasonable ;P

Sthenio
24-05-2014, 13:29
I am sorely tempted to go down the "All Russ" route and take a bunch of Tanks.

im not the power gaming type, but I've always loved the way that an Armoured Company looks on the table.