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Shibboleth
18-05-2014, 01:00
Anybody else getting a certain vibe from the new 40K packaging?

193472

Ssilmath
18-05-2014, 01:02
The Imperium itself has a strong fascist vibe as it is, but white, black and red make for a very striking color combination. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Voss
18-05-2014, 01:06
Anybody else getting a certain vibe from the new 40K packaging?

193472
Red, wings, and skulls on black? Nope.
Nothing that hasn't been present for 20+ years, anyway.

Mit Gas
18-05-2014, 01:16
It has always been a bit inspired by the iconography of the third reich with the huge eagles and so on and on. One has to say that the nazis had a very distinct and cool look to them so it's no wonder that fiction is borrowing some ideas or visual cues from them (it still does "fascinate" people), the ideology is also an interesting one for a fictional setting (and an absolutely wrong one in the real world). 40k basically took inspiration from almost everywhere...

ehlijen
18-05-2014, 01:17
This new box is probably the most egregious recent example, but 40k has always had fascist vibes. What it did not, thankfully, have was direct statements of connotations with Nazi Germany.

I think this box is a bit of a mistake, but no more. Just a mistake. Still, one more reason not to waste that money on it.

That said, there is more to Germany than Nazis as Red, white and black, as well as some iconography 40k uses, have been around since long before 1933.

Theocracity
18-05-2014, 01:26
Yeah, I've had enough with GW's strong allusions to Nazi Germany. I'm quitting to go play Flames of War.

:shifty:

Seriously though, I think it's just a striking color scheme thought up by some designer wanting to make a mark with minimalism along with an updated logo design. Any references to one of the Imperium's real life fascist inspirations are probably an unintended benefit.

Spell_of_Destruction
18-05-2014, 01:29
I agree with the others. This is no more 'Nazi' than it has ever been - maybe just seems that way due to the red, white and black. The Nazis used a lot of imperialistic iconography that had been used for centuries so just because something has a vague resemblance to Nazi iconography doesn't mean there is a direct connection. The most obvious example is that the eagle was a Roman symbol.

The most direct historical inspiration for 40k is still the Medieval/Renaissance papacy.

Voss
18-05-2014, 01:40
This new box is probably the most egregious recent example, but 40k has always had fascist vibes. What it did not, thankfully, have was direct statements of connotations with Nazi Germany.

I think this box is a bit of a mistake, but no more. Just a mistake. Still, one more reason not to waste that money on it.
It really isn't. The colors pop, which is useful for product on a shelf, and visually, it really doesn't evoke much of anything. Laurel, skull and wings are pretty innocuous, and certainly doesn't carry even the slightest whiff of propaganda.

Dislike paying for a beginner's guide (book I), some rehashed setting fiction (book 2) and some lousy rules, but an overly sensitive critique of the color palette is getting a bit silly. More likely, they were deliberately trying to remind people of 2nd editions 'red period' more than some laughable nazi cliche (complete with zombie jump scares, if decades of nazis in pop culture have taught me anything).

Kung Fu Hamster
18-05-2014, 01:41
I think we may have found the single most ridiculous criticism of 40K and GW yet...

Mit Gas
18-05-2014, 02:29
It has always been a bit inspired by the iconography of the third reich with the huge eagles and so on and on. One has to say that the nazis had a very distinct and cool look to them so it's no wonder that fiction is borrowing some ideas or visual cues from them (it still does "fascinate" people), the ideology is also an interesting one for a fictional setting (and an absolutely wrong one in the real world). 40k basically took inspiration from almost everywhere...

Surgency
18-05-2014, 02:35
I think we may have found the single most ridiculous criticism of 40K and GW yet...

Never let it be said that 40k "gamers" are not creative when it comes to complaining

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Voss
18-05-2014, 02:47
Never let it be said that 40k "gamers" are not creative when it comes to complaining

"OMG, Nazis!" is probably one of the least creative complaints I can think of, actually. Its a cliche that makes Indian child slavers, pan-dimensional aliens and nuke-proof refrigerators seem refreshing.

Grocklock
18-05-2014, 03:00
Wow what a comparison, while I accept people don't like 40k but Nazi's really. We're going to go there.

I mean read white and black are worming colours. Used on road signs.

Bit more logical that it come from there then the Nazi's.

NealSmith
18-05-2014, 03:05
Well actually... The double headed eagle is not a Nazis symbol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle

Penitent Engine
18-05-2014, 03:09
This is sort of ridiculous. RWB, wings, laurels and eagles are all imperialistic symbols common through European history. To me, it looks like the designer ripped off...uh, I mean, inspired by the Prussian royal standard:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Royal_Standard_of_the_King_of_Prussia_(1871%E2%80% 931918).svg/600px-Royal_Standard_of_the_King_of_Prussia_(1871%E2%80% 931918).svg.png

But more likely they thought it looked like a nice, clean and imperial design.

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Fangschrecken
18-05-2014, 04:05
Anybody else getting a certain vibe from the new 40K packaging?

193472

My good man... what ze heil are you on about?

Futuristic space fascists? bah! what is this? Verhoeven's Starship Troopers?

R.D.
18-05-2014, 04:31
Red and white coloring? Could just as easily be evidence for GW shilling for Coca-Cola. :p

Grudgedesign
18-05-2014, 07:21
The Nazis where very inspired by the Roman Empire, from which, incidentally, much of the inspiration for the Imperium also come from.

However, I do think that the choice of color, in combination with the iconography, is a bit unfortunate.

Voss
18-05-2014, 07:24
The Nazis where very inspired by the Roman Empire, from which, incidentally, much of the inspiration for the Imperium also come from.

However, I do think that the choice of color, in combination with the iconography, is a bit unfortunate.

Shame about those blood angels and flesh tearers, isn't it? Not like those have been around since RT.

Thomson
18-05-2014, 09:01
Well the Imperium is basically a mixture of fascist Russia with fasciest Germany and then you add the most sinister sides of the medieval Inquisition.

If you think about that even Stalin later in the war removed the Commissars from the ranks because they where finally detrimental to the performance of troops, but they are still there in 40k armies (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar#Red_Army) you quickly learn that the Imperium is worse than Stalin's Russia...

And there is only one thing in recent history that was worse...

It should be pretty clear to everyone that the Imperium is evil... if you genetically engineer super humans (who wanted to do that...) and then you create legions of them which you call...

World Eaters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Night Lords (note that they where named so *before* the Heresy...)

The problem is that this is what "grimdark" is all about. Everybody is evil. Everybody has given up ethics and moral in the battle for survival. It's social darwinism at its best...

The problem is that GW is not able to communicate this to a lot of their player base, no matter how hard they try...

P.P.S: And one thin that fascinates me with 40k that is confronts us with the evil in ourselves... that there is something in us that wants to rally behind a flag or symbol which gives us the right to look down on others because our banner looks cooler...

Spell_of_Destruction
18-05-2014, 10:56
Well the Imperium is basically a mixture of fascist Russia with fasciest Germany and then you add the most sinister sides of the medieval Inquisition.

If you think about that even Stalin later in the war removed the Commissars from the ranks because they where finally detrimental to the performance of troops, but they are still there in 40k armies (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar#Red_Army) you quickly learn that the Imperium is worse than Stalin's Russia...

And there is only one thing in recent history that was worse...

It should be pretty clear to everyone that the Imperium is evil... if you genetically engineer super humans (who wanted to do that...) and then you create legions of them which you call...

World Eaters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Night Lords (note that they where named so *before* the Heresy...)

The problem is that this is what "grimdark" is all about. Everybody is evil. Everybody has given up ethics and moral in the battle for survival. It's social darwinism at its best...

The problem is that GW is not able to communicate this to a lot of their player base, no matter how hard they try...

P.P.S: And one thin that fascinates me with 40k that is confronts us with the evil in ourselves... that there is something in us that wants to rally behind a flag or symbol which gives us the right to look down on others because our banner looks cooler...

The 40k universe (at its conception at least) espouses a cosmicism/cosmic horror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_horror) outlook. This is clear from the tagline:

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

It envisages a future in which the individual is so insignificant due to (a) the vast scale of human civilization and (b) the dire threat from aliens and warp entities that modern values such as progress, human rights, individual expression are meaningless. The scary thing is that there is a certain truth in it.

But I get your point that if we're comparing the Imperium to recent atrocities, the Imperium is actually worse so it may seem a little silly to get upset over some symbolism when you start looking at the kind of things that actually go on in the Imperium (such as the extermination of entire planets). It's more about cultural sensitivity than anything else (not that I think the box pays anything more than a superficial resemblance to Nazi iconography).

Azulthar
18-05-2014, 12:01
Don't really like those strong colors for 40k, btw. They're too "fresh", too vibrant. 40k should stick to its gloomy grimdark, even if it's currently not in fashion :)

Poseidal
18-05-2014, 12:17
Why skulls? Are we the baddies?

Scammel
18-05-2014, 12:22
Why skulls? Are we the baddies?

It could be a... noble, Imperial skull, demonstrating mankind's obvious superiority?

Robotlord
18-05-2014, 12:37
Ugh, you haven't been listening to Allied propaganda have you?

Beppo1234
18-05-2014, 13:14
Anybody else getting a certain vibe from the new 40K packaging?

193472

you are only detecting this now... you are cut from my scouting force!

tiger g
18-05-2014, 13:55
At least this complaint will move us away from 40k being a lead in to demon worship. Or with the new rules we can have both.

Thomson
18-05-2014, 15:13
It envisages a future in which the individual is so insignificant due to (a) the vast scale of human civilization and (b) the dire threat from aliens and warp entities that modern values such as progress, human rights, individual expression are meaningless. The scary thing is that there is a certain truth in it.
Sometimes we have to choose between loosing the world to win ourselves or winning the world and loose ourselves. 40k draws a vibrant picture how the world looks like if we choose the latter. Basically it is a wold not worth living in or living for. At least if you ask me.

But it is a very interesting world to play and to craft or read stories in.

hobojebus
18-05-2014, 17:27
Sometimes we have to choose between loosing the world to win ourselves or winning the world and loose ourselves. 40k draws a vibrant picture how the world looks like if we choose the latter. Basically it is a wold not worth living in or living for. At least if you ask me.

But it is a very interesting world to play and to craft or read stories in.

Unless your Dan abnett then you ignore all the fluff and just make up crap that does not fit.

I always saw the imperium as more of a communist nightmare, commisars and conscripts, believe in dear leader or get shot, wipe out what does not fit the ideal etc.

Voss
18-05-2014, 19:39
At least this complaint will move us away from 40k being a lead in to demon worship. Or with the new rules we can have both.

40K is Wolfenstein. Filthy Nazi Zombie Savages. ;)


.P.S: And one thin that fascinates me with 40k that is confronts us with the evil in ourselves... that there is something in us thatwants to rally behind a flag or symbol which gives us the right to look down on others because our banner looks cooler...
:rolleyes:
Read more Judge Dread if you want a better look at the origins of 40K. Spell has it right- nihilism and human insignificance mark the 40K universe.

And its really weird in the new edition since it prattles about selfless heroes while echoing the 'one amongst untold billions' spiel. They can't even keep the tone straight anymore.

Scammel
18-05-2014, 19:42
Unless your Dan abnett then you ignore all the fluff and just make up crap that does not fit.

Abnett's work is just as canon as every other interpretation of 40k. His take is simply one of many that tones down the grim-dark to try and make the blasted thing work.

Infern0
18-05-2014, 20:02
Well the Imperium is basically a mixture of fascist Russia with fasciest Germany and then you add the most sinister sides of the medieval Inquisition.
Russia was never fascist. Yeah, I`m russian, I had to comment on that.. It was communist. That`s the right word ;)

Disposable Hero
18-05-2014, 21:49
It has always been a bit inspired by the iconography of the third reich with the huge eagles and so on and on. One has to say that the nazis had a very distinct and cool look to them so it's no wonder that fiction is borrowing some ideas or visual cues from them (it stillk does "fascinate" people), the ideology is also an interesting one for a fictional setting (and an absolutely wrong one in the real world). 40k basically took inspiration from almost everywhere...

A cool look to them, you say?

You mean, the unforms, the flags, the marching? The ultra-nationalism? The singing, perhaps? The 'solution' devised at Wannsee?

Holy moly.

Hengist
18-05-2014, 23:53
Unless your Dan abnett then you ignore all the fluff and just make up crap that does not fit.

I always saw the imperium as more of a communist nightmare, commisars and conscripts, believe in dear leader or get shot, wipe out what does not fit the ideal etc.
40k's Imperium is pretty obviously a satire of totalitarianism in general, and the setting's strokes are broad enough that I really don't think it's worth worrying about precisely what flavour of totalitatianism in particular. It's also a satire of religion, of nationalism, and of militarism.

What's interesting to note is how closely Rogue Trader fitted, back in 1987, to the general tone of British popular science fiction; not just the oft-credited Judge Dredd and Nemesis the Warlock, but Blake's 7 and Doctor Who. In common with those antecedents, the 40k setting is (or at least was) most of all a subversion/deconstruction of 'traditional' popular sci-fi in the pulpy golden age; a grimly exaggerated realist (in the literary sense of the term) vision of future society, in contrast to the utopian optimism of (to pick on the most culturally-prominent example) Star Trek - it's an interesting example of the transatlantic cultural divide that Rogue Trader was published the same year TNG debuted.

Penitent Engine
19-05-2014, 00:03
A cool look to them, you say?

You mean, the unforms, the flags, the marching? The ultra-nationalism? The singing, perhaps? The 'solution' devised at Wannsee?

Holy moly.

Uh, no. A 'cool look' in the sense of trenchcoats and snazzy hats.

The Nazis did terible things, but their dress uniforms (particularly the SS's) were designed to be distinctive and memorable.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

AngryAngel
19-05-2014, 00:11
Well the Imperium is basically a mixture of fascist Russia with fasciest Germany and then you add the most sinister sides of the medieval Inquisition.

If you think about that even Stalin later in the war removed the Commissars from the ranks because they where finally detrimental to the performance of troops, but they are still there in 40k armies (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar#Red_Army) you quickly learn that the Imperium is worse than Stalin's Russia...

And there is only one thing in recent history that was worse...

It should be pretty clear to everyone that the Imperium is evil... if you genetically engineer super humans (who wanted to do that...) and then you create legions of them which you call...

World Eaters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Night Lords (note that they where named so *before* the Heresy...)

The problem is that this is what "grimdark" is all about. Everybody is evil. Everybody has given up ethics and moral in the battle for survival. It's social darwinism at its best...

The problem is that GW is not able to communicate this to a lot of their player base, no matter how hard they try...

P.P.S: And one thin that fascinates me with 40k that is confronts us with the evil in ourselves... that there is something in us that wants to rally behind a flag or symbol which gives us the right to look down on others because our banner looks cooler...


The imperium is very fascist in its make up. So the color combination isn't too surprising, nor is the general feel of them.

However the Imperium isn't evil, just misunderstood. As for their to be evil, there must also be good, and if everyone is evil, it ceases to have any kind of real teeth in that claim. Good might be, who still thrives as a society or at least exists. Bad, is those just seeking to destroy for destructions sake, who has no goals for the future and merely press for the end. In that, I would say that the imperium is still good, or at least better then some. All sides have dirty hands, that is sure. Though for better or worse, Tau, Eldar and the Imperium would be good, if any had to be. Some being neutral, and some evil.

Just one clowns opinion, but then my view might be skewed.

GenerationTerrorist
19-05-2014, 01:48
Russia was never fascist. Yeah, I`m russian, I had to comment on that.. It was communist. That`s the right word ;)

Russia wasn't even truely Communist, to be fair.
Though I am a bit uncool about this thread - If you see Nazi propoganda in Warhammer 40k, then I think maybe you are too sensitive to play this game....Just wait until you start reading stuff ;-)

ehlijen
19-05-2014, 03:50
We all know GW or 40k isn't actually endorsing Nazis. But the more of the visual and tonal styles they borrow and use in formats where the parody part isn't easily visible (such as box cover art with no punchline), the easier it is for GW to be associated with fascism by those who don't know what 40k really is. And while that's not a big issue for a collectors box I admit, it's still not something I'd think they want to happen on a regular basis?

Yes, commissars shoot their own guys, how ridiculous. We all laugh when it happens in game. But book cover that simply says 'obedience or death' isn't going to get the parody part across without explanation. Someone who doesn't like that statement might not open it to find out more.

The Nazis ruined a lot of things for everyone (hindu symbols, some colour combos, some fashions and of course history and many lives in general), but trying to reclaim some of them just isn't really worth it.

As for no good and therefore no evil in 40k: it's the audience that provides the knowledge of what is good and therefore also the knowledge that everyone in 40k is evil. The universe is a parody. Parody needs an audience that sees the joke to work. If the audience doesn't see the joke or is put off before it gets a close enough look to find the joke, you're left with just an outrageous and distasteful statement.

The setting of 40k is carefully crafted to be this bleak so all the evil can be proclaimed necessary. But that's only believable if you ignore that the amount of danger is ridiculously overblown and all the propaganda turned into setting truth to get the point across.

If humanity was fighting against evil barbarian terrorists with whom there can be no negotiation AND racial impurity sprang up all over the place and invited actual daemon infestations AND elder space gods were awakening to eat all them souls AND a giant intergalactic eating machine happened to just have arrived AND half of humanity's fighting forces suddenly decided that daemon worship was the way and rebelled AND both a previous tenant and a new squatter arrived at the place to shove us out of our home THEN MAYBE some of what the inquisition gets up to might be justified. But of course we're still taking the Inquisition's word for it that those things are happening.

And that's the joke. 40k is 'what if all evil propaganda ever were true? would that justify what it was propaganda for?'

Damocles8
19-05-2014, 03:53
It has always been a bit inspired by the iconography of the third reich with the huge eagles and so on and on. One has to say that the nazis had a very distinct and cool look to them so it's no wonder that fiction is borrowing some ideas or visual cues from them (it still does "fascinate" people), the ideology is also an interesting one for a fictional setting (and an absolutely wrong one in the real world). 40k basically took inspiration from almost everywhere...


And just where did the 3rd Reich get their eagles from? Oh that's right, Ancient Rome (aka the 1st Reich).

Wolf Lord Balrog
19-05-2014, 06:03
Is this silly 'discussion' still going on?

Infern0
19-05-2014, 06:35
Russia wasn't even truely Communist, to be fair.
Though I am a bit uncool about this thread - If you see Nazi propoganda in Warhammer 40k, then I think maybe you are too sensitive to play this game....Just wait until you start reading stuff ;-)

Indeed!

Anyway, saying that 40k is somehow pushing us the nazi "ideas" is just as stupid as claimong, that WFB is satanic. Yeah, I remember a thread in WFB general discussions.. No christian should ever play beastmen apparently.

Mauler
19-05-2014, 09:00
It could be a... noble, Imperial skull, demonstrating mankind's obvious superiority?

A winged skull - in death, ascension unto glory. Through sacrifice shall humanity triumph...

Oakenshield
19-05-2014, 09:49
What is quite funny is if you get a taxi in Nottingham you can ask for the "big Nazi building" and most drivers will know exactly what you are talking about...

193522

40K has always used Nazi and Soviet iconography, in fact probably less so now than it used to.

Rogue Trader (and 2000AD) was very much tied into the 70s and 80s punk and counter culture which re-adopted many of the symbols (e.g. skinheads, Sid Vicious in a swastika t-shirt) of the time, German Biker helmets cropped up regularly in the Ork armies for example. Indeed the Stormboys are a thinly veiled take on the Stormtroopers/Hitler Youth.

Zingraff
19-05-2014, 09:56
I'm not sure I agree with the notion that the Imperium is evil. I mean, they're clearly involved in a lot of things which aren't very nice and they don't treat their own very well, but if the background story is to be believed - then their ruthless and heavyhanded methods are entirely rational. The Imperium is the only institution in the 40k setting capable of defending the continued existence of the human specie (or species). If in the setting of 40k, you believe in the sanctity of humankind, you should also be in support of the Imperium.

While the ways of the Imperium may seem completely rotten, they're still the "good guys" in my opinion.

Bloodknight
19-05-2014, 10:47
Ancient Rome (aka the 1st Reich).

Just FYI:
The 1st Reich is the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation that ended in 1806, the 2nd Reich is the German Empire 1872-1918.

New Cult King
19-05-2014, 11:37
There are many obvious parallels between the Imperium and various real world dictatorships. Enough said.

NCK - Warseer Mod Squad