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Saunders
21-05-2014, 20:50
Via 40k Daemons blog:
http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/behold-every-psychic-power-in-whole-game.html

Pictures of all the 7th edition psychic disciplines. Below are my feeble attempts to list changes from 6th and summarize... will update as I go through the list.

Pyromancy:
Primaris) Flame Breath--Unchanged
1) Fiery Form--Still gains 4++, loses +2S from before but gains rerolls for all wounds inflicted by further pyromancy powers he casts (retains soul blaze for his close combat attacks)
2) Fire Shield--retains 4+ cover save, loses the free hits when charged. Gains 6" dangerous terrain bubble around the target unit.
3) Spontaneous Combustion--Instead of auto-wound, inflicts S6 AP3 hit with soul blaze. If target model is slain by the attack, center a small blast over the model and every other model under it suffers a S5 AP4 with Ignores Cover and Soul Blaze.
4) Sunburst--9" nova power, up from 6". Blind replaced with Soul Blaze, otherwise unchanged effect.
5) Inferno--Beefed up and moved to slot 5, cost 2 WC. Changed to Large Blast from Small Blast, otherwise unchanged effect.
6) Molten Beam--Unchanged.

Pyromancy got a few 'quality of life' buffs, a bit of utility and power scaling to make it a little more appealing; the psychic phase additions also favor pyromancy above other disciplines, being that most of these powers are psychic shooting attacks and there is no limit on the number of shooting attacks that a model may make. Still, with a niche primaris and IMO possessing the least overall utility of the psychic disciplines, people will continue to pass on pryomancy.

Divination:
Primaris) Prescience--(Disclaimer: PRE-SHE-ENS, not PRES-ENS, or PRE-SCI-ENS *pet peeve*) WC2, effect is unchanged.
1) Foreboding--Unchanged.
2) Forewarning--Unchanged.
3) Perfect Timing--Unchanged.
4) Precognition--Unchanged.
5) Misfortune--WC2, all attacks that hit target unit have Rending.
6) Scrier's Gaze--WC2, 3 dice dropped to rerolls, additionally gives the choice for caster to immediately discard one active Tactical Objective and generate a new one.

So prescience got the adjustment that many expected (personally, I thought it would be replaced as primaris). If you're using that power, you may as well make the effort to pronounce it correctly. I like misfortune's retuning; it remains a powerful ability and feels better-costed, whilst at the same time removes another aspect of the game that made a player roll a ton of extra dice. Scrier's gaze may have great additional utility at the cost of losing a die on its rerolling spree, depending upon how well the Maelstorm of War missions catch on. Either way, divination continues to provide the most utility in a psychic discipline.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The wording of Foreboding is exactly the same as 6th, including the "fire Overwatch on their full ballistic skill, as opposed to ballistic skill 1." Unless that's a typo, then I'd say the -2 BS rumor has been debunked.

Telepathy:
Primaris) Psychic Shriek--buffed to 18" range
1) Dominate--Wording seems to be clarified a bit, otherwise unchanged
2) Mental Fortitude--Unchanged
3) Terrify--No longer nullifies Fearless, -1 Ld, otherwise unchanged
4) Shrouding--Replaces Puppet Master, 1 WC, 6" shrouding bubble around the psyker
5) Invisibility--May only fire snap shots and hit on 6's in assault against target unit
6) Hallucination--1-2 take pinning check, 3-4 -1 WS/BS/I/A, 5-6 random character takes S3 hit for every other model in the target unit, no cover saves may be taken and wounds may not be reallocated; there are no characters in the target unit, use 3-4 result

Overall, Telepathy took a hit with some compensation. The loss of Puppet Master is the obvious negative, though its replacement is a useful addition. Terrify no longer cancelling Fearless was a huge hit to the utility of that power IMO, though the -1 Ld debuff certainly makes it more effective in many cases. I like invisibility's change in utility while at the same time being dismayed by it becoming an even better power. They cleaned up the wording on invisibility to make the power easier to understand, and with its new use it doesn't overlap with Shrouding. Hallucination gained character assassination utility, but at the same time took a huge hit in overall power... probably deserved, though I never saw many people complain about how ridiculously good the power was. It previously auto-pinned, disallowed anything beyond movement, or made the squad inflict hits on themselves with their own weapons. A nerf throughout that power, along with the addition of one of the only character-sniping tools I know of now (S3 is so weak versus a buncha terminators hitting themselves with powerfists, though)

I've noticed they've cleaned up a lot of wording to avoid confusion. Puppet Master, the shadiest power of this discipline, was outright replaced. That bodes well.

Telekinesis:
Primaris) Assail--Unchanged.
1) Crush--Unchanged.
2) Objuration Mechanicum--Target unit's ranged weapons gain Gets Hot for the turn. Additional effect on vehicles unchanged.
3) Shockwave--9" nova range, down from 12". S4 assault 2d6, pinning.
4) Levitation--Replaces Gate of Infinity (which moves to Sanctic Daemonology). WC1, targets the psyker. If psyker is not zooming, swooping, or locked in combat, psyker and his unit make a move up to 12". Movement ignores intervening terrain, landing in difficult terrain counts as dangerous. May not charge following the move and counts as having moved.
5) Telekine Dome--WC2, targets the psyker. The psyker and all friendly models within 12" have a 5++ save against any shooting attack.
6) Psychic Maelstrom--Replaces Vortex of Doom (which moves to Sanctic Daemonology). WC3, witchfire 12" S10 AP1 assault 1, barrage, large blast.

They sure fiddled with Telekinesis; whether or not that makes the discipline more desirable is another matter entirely. A couple powers moved out of the discipline and the powers that replaced them are similar in theme but different in protency. Levitation is niche, but I actually like it more than Gate of Infinity for its precision and greater safety. Psychic maelstrom is a beast (especially combining it with, say, levitation) and a clear upgrade from the old vortex of doom, but 3WC is going to eat up a lot of warp charges to fire off. I want to like Telekinesis and I feel that you can make use of these powers, but as with pyromancy it still suffers from the lack of utility that we all look for in psychic powers.

Biomancy:
Primaris) Smite--range buffed by 6 to 18", effect unchanged.
1) Iron Arm--+3 S&T, as opposed to d3. Gains Smash, loses Eternal Warrior.
2) Enfeeble--Unchanged.
3) Life Leech--range buffed by 6 to 18", psyker can now pass wounds regained on to any model friendly within 6"
4) Warp Speed--+3 I&A, as opposed to d3.
5) Endurance--WC2, Changed to FNP 4+, Eternal Warrior, Relentless.
6) Haemorrhage--WC2, range buffed by 6 to 18". First target must pass two toughness tests and suffers a wound with no armor/cover saves for each failed. Rest of the effect unchanged, down to 1 test for all subsequent targets.

Is it possible for biomancy to get better? Biomancy got better. Less record keeping for Iron Arm and Warp Speed (they default to 3), and one of my biggest nitpicks was fixed by moving Eternal Warrior from Iron Arm to Endurance (never made sense in my mind). Haemorrhage is still the weaker power here, and the WC2 cost doesn't help. At least it has some more range and increased likelihood to actually score a wound, but in most cases you will still find yourself wishing for any other power and defaulting to the primaris.



There's my summary and analysis, go see the daemonology powers for yourself if you want to learn about the new disciplines.

gwarsh41
21-05-2014, 21:38
Divination:
Primaris) Prescience--(Disclaimer: PRES-CEE-ENS, not PRES-ENS, or PRE-SCI-ENS *pet peeve*) WC2, effect is unchanged.


NA english has it pronounced ˈpreSH(ē)əns. Pre-shee-ens, which I don't think I have ever heard anyone pronounce it, but everwhere I looked, that is how it is pronounced.

I am very happy with many of these changes, Be'Lakor throwing out invisibility to my nurgle units will be insanely fun!

ChromeZephyr
21-05-2014, 21:44
The "Overwatch is BS -2" rumor seems to be disproved based on Foreboding, as it mentions the unit benefiting from it firing Overwatch at full BS rather than BS1. Unless that's a really, really big C&P error they missed.

Lokust
21-05-2014, 21:51
So Eldar can summon daemons but not do telekinesis? What the heck is going on over at GW?

Fingers
21-05-2014, 21:52
Terrify seems useless now vs most armies. Makes the wraith fighter an even bigger joke. Everyone is going to be rolling biomancy or divination. Pyromancy still blows.

Saunders
21-05-2014, 22:04
The "Overwatch is BS -2" rumor seems to be disproved based on Foreboding, as it mentions the unit benefiting from it firing Overwatch at full BS rather than BS1. Unless that's a really, really big C&P error they missed.

Oh right, I was thinking the same thing as I read the power, then totally forgot to note it. TY


NA english has it pronounced ˈpreSH(ē)əns. Pre-shee-ens, which I don't think I have ever heard anyone pronounce it, but everwhere I looked, that is how it is pronounced.

I've been living a lie! T_T dictionary.com confirms. pre-shee-ense... I don't know if I can live with that.

Lee-Full_Davis
21-05-2014, 22:23
Not liking how they got rid of Puppet Master and no longer making Terrify remove Fearless but some of the powers are pretty neat :D

Donnie Darko
21-05-2014, 22:24
Haha. IG blob with FRFSRF and misfortune on their target.
Hahaha....

Captain Idaho
21-05-2014, 22:25
So what's this about being able to use more than one psychic shooting attack? Mentioned in top post?

If that's the case it's a game changer. Biomancy becomes a Space Marine's best friend since he can do everything with it, whilst some players might actually want to burn opponents to the ground with Pyromancy.

And yet... Telekinesis! A unit of Centurions just found a way into range for cheap (though reliant on rolling the damn power first) and there are plenty of hard hitting powers if you want to do damage.

The possibilities are intriguing me...

***edit***

Actually the possibilities for Telepathy are quite cool too. Imagine hitting a unit with Terrify then Shriek? Or giving my Honour Guard Invisibility and taking on that super scary enemy deathstar etc.

Saunders
21-05-2014, 22:33
So what's this about being able to use more than one psychic shooting attack? Mentioned in top post?

witchfire powers are used in the psychic phase between movement and shooting phases, and still operate like shooting, but they no longer count as shooting for the purposes of limiting how many weapons a model can fire in a turn (confirmed). You can fire off as many witchfire powers as you can manifest and still shoot with your gun in the shooting phase.

Shadeseraph
21-05-2014, 23:26
Just for fun, Stathammer for the new psychic powers, if they work as rumored (roll dice, 4-6 = success, 1-3 = miss, number of successes must be equal to or over the number of charges of the power).

Probability of achieving X or more successes in N dice:
formula: 1 - Σ [K=0 -> K=X-1] (C(N,K) x (1/2)^K x (1/2)^(N-K))


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 0,5 0,75 0,875 0,9375 0,96875 0,984375 0,9921875 0,99609375 0,998046875
2 0,25 0,5 0,6875 0,8125 0,890625 0,9375 0,96484375 0,98046875
3 0,125 0,3125 0,5 0,65625 0,7734375 0,85546875 0,91015625

Legend: top row: number of dice used (N). first column: number of desired successes. Up to 3, as powers require at most 3 charges.

Probability of achieving perils of the warp in N dice:
formula: 1 - C(N,0) x (1/6)^0 x (5/6)^(N-0) - C(N,1) x (1/6)^1 x (5/6)^(N-1)


2 0,0277777778
3 0,0740740741
4 0,1319444444
5 0,196244856
6 0,2632244513
7 0,3302040466
8 0,3953230977
9 0,4573412415


Probability of denying X successes on natural 6s in N dice:
formula: 1 - Σ [K=0 -> K=X-1] (C(N,K) x (1/6)^K x (5/6)^(N-K))


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 0,166666667 0,305555556 0,421296296 0,517746914 0,598122428 0,665102023 0,720918353 0,767431961 0,806193301
2 0,027777778 0,074074074 0,131944444 0,196244856 0,263224451 0,330204047 0,395323098 0,457341241
3 0,004629630 0,016203704 0,035493827 0,062285665 0,095775463 0,134846894 0,178259594
4 0,000771605 0,003343621 0,008701989 0,017632602 0,030656412 0,048021492
5 0,000128601 0,000664438 0,002004029 0,004608792 0,008950062
6 0,000021433 0,000128601 0,000441172 0,001135775
7 0,000003572 0,000024410 0,000093871
8 0,000000595 0,000004565
9 0,000000099
Legend: top row: number of dice used (N). first column: number of desired successes. Not limited to 3 successes, as you need to match the number of successes of the caster.

Bog Witch
22-05-2014, 00:18
Y'know, Biomancy was always my favourite discipline before, and holy hell have they gone and made it better. Couldn't be happier about those fixed +3 stat buffs, and I never would have imagined being able to pass on wounds to other models with life leech. The range boosts are icing on the cake, really. Time to kitbash another chaos sorcerer.

Losing Command
22-05-2014, 00:27
Same here, loved to give a unit of Centurions FnP and IWND, but now they get Eternal warrior too :eek: Add lifeleach and they'll likely never die :cheese:

Bugaboo
22-05-2014, 02:47
So I'll hazard a guess this means Ahriman has Divination like any other Chaos Sorcerer. I like that, though... has pretty much made one relic in the CS supplement redundant.

BigHammer
22-05-2014, 04:02
Terrify seems useless now vs most armies. Makes the wraith fighter an even bigger joke. Everyone is going to be rolling biomancy or divination. Pyromancy still blows.

Horrify + Terrify = morale test on at most Ld 6. Add in Hemlock's ability to force rerolls, maybe even toss in a Raider with torment launchers to make it at most Ld 5.

All this after being able to move the Hemlock before casting (it had to cast before moving before, and couldn't cast on the turn it arrived at all). Then you shoot at the unit with the Hemlock's heavy D-scythes and whatever else you like in the shooting phase to cause enough casualties to force another morale test, and if things haven't changed there they automatically fail and fall back again.

Fearless is immune, but that's all. Everything else is going to run screaming for the hills. This is bad how?

Edit: Also, since I mentioned DE in the post, how about Horrify, Terrify, torment launchers and a crucible of eternity? Goodbye any psychic unit in the game.

WordBearer
22-05-2014, 04:24
I don't know what I was expecting, but Sanctic is kind of yawnsville. I guess I can be somewhat relieved it doesn't have the ability to force instability tests like we feared, but it's mostly just some recycled Grey Knights powers plus a couple of fairly tame daemon debuffs. I'm not going to feel much need to slap it on any of my sorcerers when Malefic gives me that much more bang for my buck.

Itsacon
22-05-2014, 06:00
I don't know what I was expecting, but Sanctic is kind of yawnsville. I guess I can be somewhat relieved it doesn't have the ability to force instability tests like we feared, but it's mostly just some recycled Grey Knights powers plus a couple of fairly tame daemon debuffs. I'm not going to feel much need to slap it on any of my sorcerers when Malefic gives me that much more bang for my buck.

It also has the only D weapon of all the powers...

Granted, it's WC 3, and you'd better not fail the test, but still.

It's biggest problem is that the Primaris power is only useful against daemons, so if your opponent isn't one, it's not worth it to stick to that one discipline.

Voss
22-05-2014, 07:22
Horrify + Terrify = morale test on at most Ld 6. Add in Hemlock's ability to force rerolls, maybe even toss in a Raider with torment launchers to make it at most Ld 5.

All this after being able to move the Hemlock before casting (it had to cast before moving before, and couldn't cast on the turn it arrived at all). Then you shoot at the unit with the Hemlock's heavy D-scythes and whatever else you like in the shooting phase to cause enough casualties to force another morale test, and if things haven't changed there they automatically fail and fall back again.

Fearless is immune, but that's all. Everything else is going to run screaming for the hills. This is bad how?

Sheer quantity of fearless in the game. The same major stumbling block at any attempt to model morale in modern editions of warhammer.

Captain Idaho
22-05-2014, 07:22
Does anyone else look at Telekinesis and think it'll be hilarious against Imperial Guard? Objuration Mechanicum on any vehicle squadron will just be funny but imagineIit on a blob squad! I double dare you to use first rank fire...

Same thing for any high rate of fire unit. Ork Lootas?

I'm also liking how each discipline is better against certain adversaries. Tau it's probably Telepathy, Marines it's biomancy, hordes it's pyromancy if you want to kill them...

Not to mention your role for the psyker within the army.

Voss
22-05-2014, 07:32
Does anyone else look at Telekinesis and think it'll be hilarious against Imperial Guard? Objuration Mechanicum on any vehicle squadron will just be funny but imagineIit on a blob squad! I double dare you to use first rank fire...

Same thing for any high rate of fire unit. Ork Lootas?

I'm also liking how each discipline is better against certain adversaries. Tau it's probably Telepathy, Marines it's biomancy, hordes it's pyromancy if you want to kill them...

Not to mention your role for the psyker within the army.

Given how accessible the chart is for certain armies (*cough*imperial*cough*), I don't like it at all. If you're right, it is just a way for librarians to tailor their loadout specifically for whatever turns up on the other side of the table.

Itsacon
22-05-2014, 07:49
Given how accessible the chart is for certain armies (*cough*imperial*cough*), I don't like it at all. If you're right, it is just a way for librarians to tailor their loadout specifically for whatever turns up on the other side of the table.

...which is exactly the way space marines fight...

Captain Idaho
22-05-2014, 07:55
Why not? They're an army that is hardly top tier? And many of the other armies have great disciplines themselves.

Daemons? Yep. We don't need to go into that.

Chaos Marines? Access to most and can use the Marked powers and Daemonology. Higher level Psykers and access to more casters.

Eldar? Eldar powers are great and they can have a large number of psychics on the table.

Tyranids? Get their own powers and are scary enough with biomancy. (Actually I can't remember if they get biomancy but their MCs are still dangerous enough without giving them all those powers.

In comparison, Codex Marines can have 2 Psykers at best. Hardly game breaking

tneva82
22-05-2014, 07:59
Given how accessible the chart is for certain armies (*cough*imperial*cough*), I don't like it at all. If you're right, it is just a way for librarians to tailor their loadout specifically for whatever turns up on the other side of the table.

Assuming you can choose during deployment disclipine or you know your opponent while making army list.

Captain Idaho
22-05-2014, 08:03
Psychic powers are an imperfect strategy at best they give you a nice wild card but since we use low level casters, 2 powers plus a primaris is our limit. Tailoring is unlikely!

warlordbob
22-05-2014, 10:16
Don't forget allies though Idaho, after all every Marine player is apparently going to have an Inquisitor buddy and AM pysker squad and Sanctioned pysker now, because thats what all the cool kids are doing ;)

Captain Idaho
22-05-2014, 10:40
I guess I'm just not cool then! But then I do play 40K so we all knew that! :)

I can't really find the points right now in my lists. What, drop something? Outrageous!

warlordbob
22-05-2014, 10:53
I'm the same, i'll be sticking with my trusty Terminator Librarian with biomanc, only know he'll always have the option to pew pew. I've done ok without divination so far, i'm sure my Crimson Fists can manage without it or summoning Deamons left right and centre.

Felwether
22-05-2014, 11:12
I've been living a lie! T_T dictionary.com confirms. pre-shee-ense... I don't know if I can live with that.

Chiming in purely to be a pedant. British pronunciation preh-c-ense, American pronunciation pre-shee-ense.

Depends on where you are I guess.

Hendarion
22-05-2014, 14:07
[QUOTE=Shadeseraph;7167468]Just for fun, Stathammer for the new psychic powers, if they work as rumored (roll dice, 4-6 = success, 1-3 = miss, number of successes must be equal to or over the number of charges of the power).

Probability of achieving X or more successes in N dice:
formula: 1 - Σ [K=0 -> K=X-1] (C(N,K) x (1/2)^K x (1/2)^(N-K))


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 0,5 0,75 0,875 0,9375 0,96875 0,984375 0,9921875 0,99609375 0,998046875
2 0,25 0,5 0,6875 0,8125 0,890625 0,9375 0,96484375 0,98046875
3 0,125 0,3125 0,5 0,65625 0,7734375 0,85546875 0,91015625

50% chance to roll 3 times a 4+ with 5 dice sounds incorrect. With 6 dice I would understand it. With 5 I don't. I think you calculated the chance for 6 dice, but have put it in the column for 5. The chance for 7 dice in the column for 6, etc. At least in the 3rd row.

Theocracity
22-05-2014, 14:15
Why not? They're an army that is hardly top tier? And many of the other armies have great disciplines themselves.

Daemons? Yep. We don't need to go into that.

Chaos Marines? Access to most and can use the Marked powers and Daemonology. Higher level Psykers and access to more casters.

Eldar? Eldar powers are great and they can have a large number of psychics on the table.

Tyranids? Get their own powers and are scary enough with biomancy. (Actually I can't remember if they get biomancy but their MCs are still dangerous enough without giving them all those powers.

In comparison, Codex Marines can have 2 Psykers at best. Hardly game breaking

Nids don't get Biomancy, they only have their own powers. However, with the amount of psykers they can put on the table, they'll be rolling in dispel dice to shut down their opponents (and make their Perils really dangerous with the Ld debuff of SitW).

OuroborosTriumphant
22-05-2014, 14:34
50% chance to roll 3 times a 4+ with 5 dice sounds incorrect. With 6 dice I would understand it. With 5 I don't. I think you calculated the chance for 6 dice, but have put it in the column for 5. The chance for 7 dice in the column for 6, etc. At least in the 3rd row.

No, his maths is correct. The number of dice needed for an expected result of 3 is 6, but the number of dice to make the probability of getting 3 or higher 50% is 5.

5 dice gives an expected result of 2.5. Half of the time it'll be a 2 or lower, the other half of the time it'll be a 3 or higher.

Shadeseraph
22-05-2014, 14:37
50% chance to roll 3 times a 4+ with 5 dice sounds incorrect. With 6 dice I would understand it. With 5 I don't. I think you calculated the chance for 6 dice, but have put it in the column for 5. The chance for 7 dice in the column for 6, etc. At least in the 3rd row.

It's complex, and I'm not sure I can give you a straight answer, but for a more intuitive one, what you are saying is equivalent to stating that the probability of rolling at least one success in 2 dice is 50%. Just to show you why this isn't true, you have 36 combinations of numbers in 2 dice, out of which 9 are less than one success. 9/36 is far less than 50%.

EDIT: Remember that the probability of landing one or more successes is 1 minus the probability of landing 0 successes, so 36/36 - 9/36 = 27/36 = 75%.

Saunders
22-05-2014, 14:41
Chiming in purely to be a pedant. British pronunciation preh-c-ense, American pronunciation pre-shee-ense.

Depends on where you are I guess.

Thank you for your response, Felwether. Now I can step back from the ledge.

Thank the Emperor for the british!

totgeboren
22-05-2014, 14:53
50% chance to roll 3 times a 4+ with 5 dice sounds incorrect. With 6 dice I would understand it. With 5 I don't. I think you calculated the chance for 6 dice, but have put it in the column for 5. The chance for 7 dice in the column for 6, etc. At least in the 3rd row.

To me the easiest way of thinking about is is that if you need one 4+ on one die, you have a 50% chance. If you roll two dice you should on average get one result of 1-3 and one results of 4-6, and so on for each pair of dice added. Four dice would give two 4+ etc.
So if you need three 4+ results you will have a 50/50 chance if you have one more dice than what you need to on average get two 4+. The formula for hitting the 50% mark would be; (warp charge times two minus one). So to reach 50% for warp charge 2 you need 3 dice, 5 dice for warp charge 3 and you would need 7 dice for a warp charge 4 power, if GW creates one.

Hendarion
22-05-2014, 15:32
Oh, I was forgetting at least 3, not exactly 3. My bad.

csm
22-05-2014, 15:51
I think Terrify is a decent combo with psychic shriek. Makes Be'kalor slightly more dangerous from a distance since at most he will have to beat leadership 9 for the psychic shriek. On 3D6 that is pretty good.

Bugaboo
22-05-2014, 15:53
It also has the only D weapon of all the powers...

Granted, it's WC 3, and you'd better not fail the test, but still.

It's biggest problem is that the Primaris power is only useful against daemons, so if your opponent isn't one, it's not worth it to stick to that one discipline.

I think that would be the reason why it is Primaris. Assuming the whole pick Primaris if you don't like what you rolled thing remains, then it basically means you can either roll for something universally useful, or if you're facing Chaos, pick the one which will be useful against them.

It was the same mindset I had when making some homebrew rules for a psychic discipline used by Sons of Malice. Make the universal stuff random, and if you're facing Chaos, pick the best power against them. *shrugs*

edward3h
22-05-2014, 15:55
Here's my attempt at mathhammering. Percentage chances of achieving certain results given number of dice rolled.



dice wc1 wc2 wc3 perils perils_double deny1 deny2 deny3
1 50 0 0 0 0 16 0 0
2 75 25 0 2 13 30 2 0
3 87 50 12 7 39 42 7 0
4 93 68 31 13 66 51 13 1
5 96 81 50 19 86 59 19 3
6 98 89 65 26 96 66 26 6
7 99 93 77 33 99 72 33 9
8 99 96 85 39 99 76 39 13
9 99 98 91 45 99 80 45 17


WC3 powers (e.g. Summoning...) are risky even with 7 dice, at which point you have a reasonable chance of Perils too. Chance of denying a WC3 power is slim too but you might as well try since there is no downside.

Hendarion
22-05-2014, 16:29
The deny-table is wrong (or highly incomplete), because in order to deny you have to roll as many 6s as the caster had 4+s when casting the spell.
So if someone uses 3 dice to cast a lvl1 spell and had 2x 4+, you need 2x6 to deny it. That's pretty low chance. So actually the more dice your opponent uses and successfully rolls a 4+ with, the lower is your chance to deny it, because you will need a lot of 6s.
Or does "deny3" only mean the % you get when trying to roll three 6s? If so, the stats for 4, 5, 6 would be interesting.

edward3h
22-05-2014, 16:44
Yeah, I misunderstood how the deny roll works - I assumed you just needed to get as many 6's as the WC of the power, so deny1, deny2, deny3 are just the chance of getting 1, 2, 3 (or more) 6s when rolling the given number of dice.

WordBearer
22-05-2014, 16:45
Chance of denying a WC3 power is slim too but you might as well try since there is no downside.Well the downside is, denial bonus dice aside, your denial dice come out of the same pool you'd be using to cast your own powers.

edward3h
22-05-2014, 17:26
Well the downside is, denial bonus dice aside, your denial dice come out of the same pool you'd be using to cast your own powers.

That was not my understanding of how the pools work. I think if that was the case it wouldn't be worth denying if you needed dice to cast powers, because the chance is low.

Theocracity
22-05-2014, 17:33
Well the downside is, denial bonus dice aside, your denial dice come out of the same pool you'd be using to cast your own powers.

That doesn't seem to be the case. The psychic phase isn't shared by both players - the dice for the current player's casting and the other player's dispel are generated each phase.

WordBearer
22-05-2014, 17:34
Fair enough. I'd thought that was what they were getting at regarding having to budget your dice wisely, but if it's a fresh pool that's much less pressure.

Theocracity
22-05-2014, 17:40
Fair enough. I'd thought that was what they were getting at regarding having to budget your dice wisely, but if it's a fresh pool that's much less pressure.

Well, it's still important to budget your dice wisely so that you have enough to block the important powers - which means the mind game comes from attempting to draw dispel dice by casting minor powers, and daring your opponent to let them through (while keeping enough to get the big powers off).

Ghal Maraz
22-05-2014, 18:16
I think that would be the reason why it is Primaris. Assuming the whole pick Primaris if you don't like what you rolled thing remains, then it basically means you can either roll for something universally useful, or if you're facing Chaos, pick the one which will be useful against them.

It was the same mindset I had when making some homebrew rules for a psychic discipline used by Sons of Malice. Make the universal stuff random, and if you're facing Chaos, pick the best power against them. *shrugs*

Earlier rumours suggest that the Primaris power is in addition to the one(s) rolled on the Discipline chart.

Theocracity
22-05-2014, 18:18
Earlier rumours suggest that the Primaris power is in addition to the one(s) rolled on the Discipline chart.

That's if you only select from one discipline. If you select Sanctic + another discipline you don't get the free Primaris.

Itsacon
22-05-2014, 18:19
Earlier rumours suggest that the Primaris power is in addition to the one(s) rolled on the Discipline chart.

I think you can still exchange any power for the primaris one, but if you pick all your powers from a single discipline, you get the primaris power as well.

So a level 2 psycher could have three spells from one discipline (2 normal and primaris), or two powers from two different disciplines (each of which could be exchanged for the corresponding primaris power).

But I haven't read the rules yet, so I'm not sure if that's right

TemperMaximus
22-05-2014, 18:21
I'm seeing a lot of bad calculations for rolling for psychic powers across many threads and I just can't help myself any more so here's my attempt at explaining some things. I thought this would be the most appropriate thread to do it in. Assuming that a 4+ is considered a success then we treat this as the cumulative probabilities of independent, binomial events and I suggest that you read the following Wikipedia page (you don't have to read the whole thing):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_choose_k

Definitions:
n - the number of dice you are rolling
s - the minimum number of successes you need to pass
k - the number of successes you are calculating exactly. To calculate the odds of getting at least s successes you need to add the number of combinations for all s<=k<=n

There are only two possible outcomes for rolling your die (success or fail) so the total number of combinations for rolling n dice is 2^n. This means that for 3 dice you have 2^3=8 combinations, for 5 dice you have 2^5=32 combinations, etc.

For understanding the outcomes intuitively you should read the definitions and forumulas section (the factorial formula is nice and compact) but I'm guessing most of you don't care and just want to know the probability. For this we'll just skip to the Pascal's Triangle section (also on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle) which gives the following:


0:








1










1:







1

1









2:






1

2

1








3:





1

3

3

1







4:




1

4

6

4

1






5:



1

5

10

10

5

1
etcetera


As a sanity check note that if you add the numbers in each row you get successive powers of 2--1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32--which, as previously mentioned should be the total number of combinations for rolling any given number of dice. To use this table you take the number of dice you are rolling (n) and go to row n of the triangle. Moving left to right each column (k, starting with k=0) will tell you the number of combinations that give exactly that number of successes from 0 to n. Note that there is only ever 1 combination that gives you all successes or all failures (the first and last columns) which we intuitively know to be correct because there is only one way to get all successes or all failures.

Example: I see a lot of discussion about how many dice to roll to get 3 successes for summoning. Some people think that 6 dice gives you a 50% chance to get 3 successes. This is incorrect--you actually need only 5. To calculate this take our number of dice (5) and go to row 5 of Pascal's Triangle. Column 0 gives us how many combinations for 0 successes, column 1 for 1 success, column 2 for 2 successes and column 3 for 3 successes which is where we start caring. The value in column 3 is 10 so 10 of the 32 combinations give exactly 3 successes. However, we're not picky and we're perfectly happy with more successes on our spell so also add in the combinations for 4 successes (5) and 5 successes (1). This gives a total of 16 combinations out of 32 combinations that give us at least 3 successes and so the probability of 3 or more successes on 5 dice is exactly 50%. If you don't believe me perhaps you will believe Mr. Wolfram: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=at+least+3+successes+in+5+trials+p+%3D0.5&dataset=&asynchronous=false&equal=Submit (Probability of occurence: 0.5)
As it turns out with 6 dice your probability of 3 or more successes is ~66%. For 7 dice it is ~77%. For 8 dice ~86%.

Hope this helps some people.

Sanai
22-05-2014, 18:31
Good to see that they specifically stated that summoning a greater daemon sacrifices the entire unit in the case of psyker brotherhoods- thats a disaster averted.

I can easily imagine why eldar would lose out on telekinesis- throwing things around is just.... too crude for eldar. Eldar psykers are the guys who turn fate against you, or make your mind rebel against itself. Throwing rocks at you is far beneath them.

Saunders
22-05-2014, 18:34
Looking at the telekinesis powers again, there is a certain element of ...barbarism to it :P

BigHammer
22-05-2014, 19:01
Looking at the telekinesis powers again, there is a certain element of ...barbarism to it :P

I'd like to think the Teke powers are what Farseers would revert to when you **** them off. Resisted his mind control effect? Survived fate being turned against you? Fine. She'll just crush you into a bloody pulp, or drop a tank on your head instead, arrogant mon-keigh!

ashc
22-05-2014, 19:03
Looking at the telekinesis powers again, there is a certain element of ...barbarism to it :P

Indeed, at first i thought it puzzling that Chaos marines didn't get it, but i believe that this is more of an attempt to push players towards the God's power tables if you want direct damage. ..

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Bugaboo
22-05-2014, 19:23
Indeed, at first i thought it puzzling that Chaos marines didn't get it, but i believe that this is more of an attempt to push players towards the God's power tables if you want direct damage. ..

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Or Pyromancy. Words and stuff.

misterboff
22-05-2014, 21:56
If a Chaos Sorceror can only select up to half of their powers from a God specific discipline, does that mean that only Level 1 get the free Primaris power (making them have the same number of powers as a Level 2, who has one God power and one other power)? Apologies if it's already been pointed out somewhere.

Minsc
22-05-2014, 21:58
If a Chaos Sorceror can only select up to half of their powers from a God specific discipline, does that mean that only Level 1 get the free Primaris power (making them have the same number of powers as a Level 2, who has one God power and one other power)? Apologies if it's already been pointed out somewhere.

It will need a Errata/FAQ for sure, but currently yes - only a ML(1) psyker would get the primaris power for free.

Theocracity
22-05-2014, 22:00
It will need a Errata/FAQ for sure, but currently yes - only a ML(1) psyker would get the primaris power for free.

I heard tell of a Chaos psychic focus rule where having a Mark or Demon Of rule meant you got that god's Primaris for free. Could you check that?

Minsc
22-05-2014, 22:05
I heard tell of a Chaos psychic focus rule where having a Mark or Demon Of rule meant you got that god's Primaris for free. Could you check that?

Ohh nice, I missed that one.
Yes indeed there is.

misterboff
22-05-2014, 22:16
I heard tell of a Chaos psychic focus rule where having a Mark or Demon Of rule meant you got that god's Primaris for free. Could you check that?

If that's the case, it's alright. Presumably it means the following:
Level 1 = 2 powers (Chaos + Chaos Primaris)
Level 2 = 3 powers (Chaos + Chaos Primaris + Non-Chaos)
Level 3 = 4 powers (2*Chaos + Chaos Primaris + Non-Chaos) or (Chaos + Chaos Primaris + 2*Non-Chaos)

Losing Command
23-05-2014, 02:23
So now Ahriman can now walk around rocking 5 psychic powers ? Niiiiiice :evilgrin:

Bugaboo
23-05-2014, 04:09
So now Ahriman can now walk around rocking 5 psychic powers ? Niiiiiice :evilgrin:

Including ones from the discipline he deserves, now. >.>

Bubble Ghost
23-05-2014, 16:26
Does anyone know what the ability to "reroll failed psychic tests" does in these rules? Do you get to reroll selected warp charge dice? Reroll all the dice or none of them? Or has its wording slipped through the cracks and it now does nothing at all...?

Saunders
23-05-2014, 20:21
Does anyone know what the ability to "reroll failed psychic tests" does in these rules? Do you get to reroll selected warp charge dice? Reroll all the dice or none of them? Or has its wording slipped through the cracks and it now does nothing at all...?

No word yet. Something may come down in the codex FAQs when they arrive, but we haven't seen them yet (technically 7th isn't even supposed to be out until tomorrow, so maybe we'll see something then)

In the meantime, I would house-rule it to reroll failed warp charge dice when attempting to manifest a power.

Minsc
23-05-2014, 22:18
If you fail the test, you re-roll the test.

If you tuck 5 dice at a warpcharge-2 power, and you get one 4+ rolls, you fail the test and so you get to re-roll all the dice (inc. the one 4+.)

If you tuck 5 dice at a warpcharge-2 power and you get 2+ rolls, you pass the test. You can't re-roll it just for the sake of trying to get more 4+ rolls.

Not the official rule, but that's how I'd house-rule it.
Just as how you couldn't keep one of the two dice when re-rolling a failed psychic test in 6th, I doubt it's intended for you to keep one successful warpcharge in 7th. Re-rolling the test means just that: re-roll it.

totgeboren
24-05-2014, 11:34
If you fail the test, you re-roll the test.

If you tuck 5 dice at a warpcharge-2 power, and you get one 4+ rolls, you fail the test and so you get to re-roll all the dice (inc. the one 4+.)

If you tuck 5 dice at a warpcharge-2 power and you get 2+ rolls, you pass the test. You can't re-roll it just for the sake of trying to get more 4+ rolls.

Not the official rule, but that's how I'd house-rule it.
Just as how you couldn't keep one of the two dice when re-rolling a failed psychic test in 6th, I doubt it's intended for you to keep one successful warpcharge in 7th. Re-rolling the test means just that: re-roll it.

I agree, that's pure RAW, and as we have nothing else to go on right now that's really the only interpretation available.

The rulebook clearly states that the psychic test is when you roll the number of dice you have allocated. If you get enough 4+, you have succeed with your psychic test, if not you have failed. If you get two or more 6s, you have suffered a perils on your psychic test and so on.

Bubble Ghost
24-05-2014, 13:19
When you get perils of the warp, does the power fail, or does it go off but you get perils as well?

totgeboren
24-05-2014, 13:41
When you get perils of the warp, does the power fail, or does it go off but you get perils as well?

It goes off as well (assuming you rolled enough 4+ and the enemy failed their DtW roll).

Suspicions
24-05-2014, 13:46
It goes off as well (assuming you rolled enough 4+ and the enemy failed their DtW roll).

But only after the effect of the Perils has been resolved. Note that even if your Psyker takes a wound or dies, the power still manifests.

A small lack of clarity, I fear. If my Psyker is removed as a casualty before resolving say....a Witchfire power....where do I measure from? The model manifesting the power is dead and no longer on the board. Likewise, what if I roll the #2 result that the Power I was using is immediately lost and cannot be used for the rest of the battle ... how can it then be resolved?

I suspect that this is indeed meant to keep Psykers in check. In neither of the above situations can the power actually manifest. The rule is there to make it clear that taking a wound happens first, and that some Powers (such as Possession) specifically take effect -after- the Psyker's death...or perhaps more precisely put, that some powers do not require the presence of the Psyker to "finish" manifesting.

If a Psyker attempts to manifest a Conjuration and suffers a Perils result like #4, and loses his last wound, the player still brings in the Conjured unit, despite that the Psyker was removed as a Casualty.

Edit: After re-reading the specifics...this is not clear. Conjurations have a range as well...measured from the Psyker. If he has already been removed as a Casualty then how can it manifest? This lack of clarity makes me suspect that either a FAQ will address it, or players will come to a consensus of their own.

totgeboren
24-05-2014, 14:55
I think they are meant to happen at the same time. The perils result become one of the effects of the power. So the power is cast and you resolve it accorig to those specific rules, and in addition you also resolve the perils, all can be considered to happen at the same time. After hits and wounds have been allocated, casualties are removed, so the psyker dies at the same time as his victims I think.

That's how I read it at least, since the Perils state "...the psychic power still manifests, regardless of wheter or not the psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp".
In order to do that, the psyker model has to remain on the table to enable you to measure range, since almost all powers have a range.

MaliGn
24-05-2014, 19:07
Which is why possession is great for sorcerers on their last wound. Since they die anyway. Incidentally Would this yield a VP if he was your warlord?

Souba
25-05-2014, 01:54
Which is why possession is great for sorcerers on their last wound. Since they die anyway. Incidentally Would this yield a VP if he was your warlord?


he gets removed as a casuality, so yeah.


i just wish there would be some clarification regarding that psychic card discipline matrix...

according to the book psykers can only generate powers from the disciplines mentioned in their unit entry in addition to daemonology unless it is strictly stated the psyker has no access to it.


given that.. why the hell does inquisition have all disciplines available on the cards but only have access to divination, pyromancy and telekinesis?... ah yeah and daemonology of course.

seriously.. gw better be fast with those erratas

hobojebus
25-05-2014, 01:57
So Eldar can summon daemons but not do telekinesis? What the heck is going on over at GW?

They can't sell you anything to represent TK, they can sell you demons.

Itsacon
25-05-2014, 11:14
he gets removed as a casuality, so yeah.


i just wish there would be some clarification regarding that psychic card discipline matrix...

according to the book psykers can only generate powers from the disciplines mentioned in their unit entry in addition to daemonology unless it is strictly stated the psyker has no access to it.


given that.. why the hell does inquisition have all disciplines available on the cards but only have access to divination, pyromancy and telekinesis?... ah yeah and daemonology of course.

seriously.. gw better be fast with those erratas

I'm reading that card/chart as overriding any older Codex, I won't deny an opponent the use of a psychic discipline he can have according to the cards, but not according to a codex that predates the current rulebook.

Souba
25-05-2014, 13:33
I'm reading that card/chart as overriding any older Codex, I won't deny an opponent the use of a psychic discipline he can have according to the cards, but not according to a codex that predates the current rulebook.

The thing is. Codex > rulebook still stands. Remember the old tau codex where jet packs did not have relentless for years even though the rulebook said so?

The rulebook now especially states that you have to follow the codex unit entry for generating powers.

while i agree and hope for those changes it also concerns me. As a daemon player that card allows for instance all daemons all rulebook disciplines apart from sanctic. You want to believe me that you do not want to play against a lord of change that has access to all lores instead of just divination and tzeentch lore or a herald of slaanesh that suddenly has t6.. Because that would cause rivers of tears

i allready mailed gw and hope for a quick answer that we can use until the faqs are up.

Itsacon
25-05-2014, 21:00
The strange thing to me is that the chart is only supplied with the cards, I can't find it in the new rulebook. It's my (optimistic) guess that GW is working on a new set of FAQs, and the card gives a glimpse into the discipline allowances as will be presented by the new FAQs

That said, I know codex trumps BRB, but for my personal games, I'll allow people to use the newer rules, if it seems logical to do so.

Mortarions scythe
25-05-2014, 22:36
Yeah! Can't wait for my enemies to start asking me for my daemon models and/or codex so they can use them..... GW you just screwed over every player who has spent a lot of money on Daemons :(

Surgency
25-05-2014, 22:39
Yeah! Can't wait for my enemies to start asking me for my daemon models and/or codex so they can use them..... GW you just screwed over every player who has spent a lot of money on Daemons :(

I don't see how? Deny the use of your daemons to your enemy. If they didn't bring the models, their loss....

Mortarions scythe
25-05-2014, 22:45
I don't see how? Deny the use of your daemons to your enemy. If they didn't bring the models, their loss....
Then I'll feel bad. I just don't like the idea of my army losing practically all of it's individuality seen as every other army save 2 can summon my units.

DoctorTom
25-05-2014, 22:50
Then I'll feel bad. I just don't like the idea of my army losing practically all of it's individuality seen as every other army save 2 can summon my units.

Not all of them, though. Some people might complain that their army's lost its individuality because any of their units can be taken by anybody else putting together an army. Does that mean that if you run a pure army of that it's lost its individuality? Not near the level you're putting it at. Besides, your guys are the only ones to summon more of your own safely.

Mortarions scythe
25-05-2014, 23:00
Not all of them, though. Some people might complain that their army's lost its individuality because any of their units can be taken by anybody else putting together an army. Does that mean that if you run a pure army of that it's lost its individuality? Not near the level you're putting it at. Besides, your guys are the only ones to summon more of your own safely.
For allies at least the other person set out with the purpose of using that army and spent a lot of time painting,preparing and list building whereas with this a space marine drop pod list player may just summon them for the sake of summoning them. I know I'm over-reacting but I am just a bit annoyed that a 60 pts librarian can in theory turn into a greater daemon.. Also how is that justified as non-heretical in fluff

Surgency
25-05-2014, 23:02
Also how is that justified as non-heretical in fluff

Thats why my Dark Angels will vigorously search and destroy any heretical traitors that summon daemons from the warp.

Plus, it'll make those Marine on Marine engagements that are so common make sense (though I predict it won't come up all that often)

Mortarions scythe
25-05-2014, 23:09
Thats why my Dark Angels will vigorously search and destroy any heretical traitors that summon daemons from the warp.
I wouldn't call them traitors...just smart, you too should embrace the chaos young angel and remember papa Nurgle loves all of his children, or at least more than your god emperor ever has :)

N0-1_H3r3
26-05-2014, 01:02
Also how is that justified as non-heretical in fluff
It isn't. Doesn't mean that there won't be psykers willing to try dabbling in darker powers for a variety of reasons.

There's a difference between "willing and able to summon daemons" and "permitted by law to summon daemons". Consorting with daemons and aliens is heresy. Doesn't mean that nobody ever consorts with daemons or aliens... just that they're likely to be killed with fire if certain parts of the Inquisition finds out about it (of course, there are parts of the Inquisition that dabble with such things too).

Fear Ghoul
26-05-2014, 01:11
There's a difference between "willing and able to summon daemons" and "permitted by law to summon daemons". Consorting with daemons and aliens is heresy. Doesn't mean that nobody ever consorts with daemons or aliens... just that they're likely to be killed with fire if certain parts of the Inquisition finds out about it (of course, there are parts of the Inquisition that dabble with such things too).

The question then becomes: Why are so many non-Chaos psykers able to summon daemons? In my version of the background, which was also once the official version, nearly all Imperial psykers weren't taught any knowledge about how to summon or banish daemons. That field of expertise is why the Grey Knights exist after all.

N0-1_H3r3
26-05-2014, 01:46
The question then becomes: Why are so many non-Chaos psykers able to summon daemons? In my version of the background, which was also once the official version, nearly all Imperial psykers weren't taught any knowledge about how to summon or banish daemons. That field of expertise is why the Grey Knights exist after all.
Thing is, it isn't about being taught the techniques. Psykers in 40k aren't like D&D Wizards, who only know the spells they can learn from a book. They draw upon the raw and unfettered power of the Warp with the strength of their minds. Yes, there's training involved in focussing and harnessing that power, but the power itself is an innate capability, drawing upon the literal hell that exists at the heart of the setting.

Completely untrained, unschooled, unwitting psykers can spontaneously allow daemons and other warp entities into the real universe. It's hideously dangerous, and often catastrophic to the psyker, but that's the primary reason why psykers are rounded up and culled on a regular basis (with a tiny minority stable and potent enough to be useful, spared and given over for sanctioning and training on Terra). Anyone that's ever played one of the 40kRPGs has probably seen more daemons summoned by accident than deliberately.

All that training, sanctioning, holy brands, scripture tattooed inside the mouth, mind-scrubbing, and every other method the Imperium has of ensuring a psyker is stable and safe to use... is to prevent the outcomes that Daemonology is geared towards. It isn't rare because it's difficult to do... it's rare because it's difficult to survive, and learning ways to summon daemons without killing yourself is the tricky part. The Grey Knights exist because the manifestation of daemons is a clear and present danger that can happen anywhere, at any time.

All that aside, the lore of daemonology remains a persistent scourge for the Imperium, and in spite of the efforts of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights, sources of heretical lore have endured millennia. It lurks in the darkness, and it wants to be found. Daemons whisper in the minds of the weak and the greedy and the fallible, conveying secrets to them that the Imperium would rather they not know. Cults flourish in spite of purges that scar worlds with their ferocity.

There are countless ways by which a psyker may come across the lore of daemonology. There are few who can dabble in it and survive, but that doesn't make it rare... merely dangerous. If it was simply a matter of not teaching it to people, the likes of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights wouldn't need to be so ruthlessly vigilant.

Losing Command
26-05-2014, 01:49
Also, in a Horus Heresy novel, one remembrancer summons a Pink Horror despite not being a psyker, merely by reading aloud from one of Lorgar's naughty books. Did he regret trying to translate that book :p

Lee-Full_Davis
26-05-2014, 03:18
I do find it kinda neat that you get to summon Daemons :) Gives you free units, though some at cost of your own models :( Thankfully i've never had to use that, been sticking with Typhus and his Nurgle powers, get my two mandatory powers plus the primaris for free! :D :D :D

Itsacon
26-05-2014, 07:31
Yeah! Can't wait for my enemies to start asking me for my daemon models and/or codex so they can use them..... GW you just screwed over every player who has spent a lot of money on Daemons :(

Or you could see it as an opportunity to get free drinks for life...

Seriously, if they borrow your models, they owe you one.

Mortarions scythe
26-05-2014, 11:37
Or you could see it as an opportunity to get free drinks for life...

Seriously, if they borrow your models, they owe you one.


Good point I'll remind them of that next time. I could start charging as well, go into games workshops and sit casually with my daemons arrayed in front of me until the first one asks to borrow my models, then they'll sign their soul to me and 1 half of their annual wages because..... they didn't read the small print.

Mortarions scythe
26-05-2014, 11:39
It isn't. Doesn't mean that there won't be psykers willing to try dabbling in darker powers for a variety of reasons.

There's a difference between "willing and able to summon daemons" and "permitted by law to summon daemons". Consorting with daemons and aliens is heresy. Doesn't mean that nobody ever consorts with daemons or aliens... just that they're likely to be killed with fire if certain parts of the Inquisition finds out about it (of course, there are parts of the Inquisition that dabble with such things too).
Yes but if you have imperial guard with GK allies why is their no penalty for the psyker. The GK simply just sit there and watch.

hobojebus
26-05-2014, 11:56
Also, in a Horus Heresy novel, one remembrancer summons a Pink Horror despite not being a psyker, merely by reading aloud from one of Lorgar's naughty books. Did he regret trying to translate that book :p

Yes but she didn't summon a bound demon under her control it attacked her as soon as it emerged, the who lore breaking thing about the new powers is that without the proper rituals being done anyone can summon and control demons.

To simulate lore any demon summoned by non chaos sorcerers should have as much chance of attacking the psyker as the enemy.

Itsacon
26-05-2014, 12:00
Yes, but if the summoned daemons come close to either the GK or IG models, they have to start rolling whether they do anything...

Also, interesting to note, all units except for battle brothers count as enemy units for the purpose of psychic powers.

So a psyker firing off a nova power after he summoned some daemons is going to hit those daemons, as any enemy unit in range is hit automatically...


BTW, I'm considering buying some daemon models to use whenever I field Ezekiel. Just for the heck of it. :-)

Da Reddaneks
26-05-2014, 12:08
BTW, I'm considering buying some daemon models to use whenever I field Ezekiel. :-)
Just as GW planned all along.

Mortarions scythe
26-05-2014, 12:11
Okay thanks I didn't know about that one. Oh god Ezekiel, why you do this GW,WHY

Itsacon
26-05-2014, 12:25
Just as GW planned all along.

I need them for my Warhammer Quest set anyway, just might move them forward a bit :-)

Itsacon
26-05-2014, 13:00
Just as GW planned all along.

I need them for my Warhammer Quest set anyway, just might move them forward a bit :-)

Fear Ghoul
26-05-2014, 13:41
Thing is, it isn't about being taught the techniques. Psykers in 40k aren't like D&D Wizards, who only know the spells they can learn from a book. They draw upon the raw and unfettered power of the Warp with the strength of their minds. Yes, there's training involved in focussing and harnessing that power, but the power itself is an innate capability, drawing upon the literal hell that exists at the heart of the setting.

Psykers draw power from the Warp for the powers they know, not for the powers they don't know. Otherwise astropaths, navigators, and a host of other psychic abilities simply wouldn't work.


Completely untrained, unschooled, unwitting psykers can spontaneously allow daemons and other warp entities into the real universe. It's hideously dangerous, and often catastrophic to the psyker, but that's the primary reason why psykers are rounded up and culled on a regular basis (with a tiny minority stable and potent enough to be useful, spared and given over for sanctioning and training on Terra).

Psykers are potentially dangerous to those around them but not specifically because of daemonic summoning. It is overwhelmingly more likely the untrained psyker is either possessed by daemons or becomes consumed by their own power, causing untold damage in either case. The Imperium also hunts down psykers to serve in various essential duties such as Astropathic choirs, the Astronomican, the Inquisition, Space Marine Librariums, and as food for the Emperor.


All that training, sanctioning, holy brands, scripture tattooed inside the mouth, mind-scrubbing, and every other method the Imperium has of ensuring a psyker is stable and safe to use... is to prevent the outcomes that Daemonology is geared towards.

So even if we assume that psykers somehow inherently know Daemonology (which is what you imply), then why do Imperial psykers all still know Daemonology after all these safeguards you describe?


It isn't rare because it's difficult to do... it's rare because it's difficult to survive, and learning ways to summon daemons without killing yourself is the tricky part. The Grey Knights exist because the manifestation of daemons is a clear and present danger that can happen anywhere, at any time.

The problem is that according to Daemonology you can quite easily survive summoning a unit of Daemons, so you are quite clearly wrong. And as I said in another thread, if Daemonology really was that common and easy, the Imperium would have fallen long ago.


All that aside, the lore of daemonology remains a persistent scourge for the Imperium, and in spite of the efforts of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights, sources of heretical lore have endured millennia. It lurks in the darkness, and it wants to be found. Daemons whisper in the minds of the weak and the greedy and the fallible, conveying secrets to them that the Imperium would rather they not know. Cults flourish in spite of purges that scar worlds with their ferocity.

None of what you describe should have made Daemonology easily accessible outside of Chaos. If you are summoning daemons then you are Chaos Marines, simple as that. You don't need to grant Dark Angels Daemonology to represent secret cults and hidden lore because that simply isn't their background. If GW wanted a daemon summoning loyalist Marine army they should have released an army list with fluff for them in White Dwarf, which is what they used to do. GW didn't need to give all Marines access to daemonic artefacts to represent the insidious influence of Chaos, because they invented the Relictors and people could play them instead. By the way, the Relictors were destroyed during the 13th Black Crusade by the Grey Knights for simply using Chaos artefacts. They didn't have to be summoning daemons to be considered heretics and traitors, so I have no idea how average Joe Librarian is going to explain his newest Bloodletter buddies to the Inquisition.


Also, in a Horus Heresy novel, one remembrancer summons a Pink Horror despite not being a psyker, merely by reading aloud from one of Lorgar's naughty books. Did he regret trying to translate that book :p

The remembrancer in question summons a single Pink Horror by inadvertently uttering an extremely powerful daemonic spell, and is then attacked by the very daemon she unknowingly summoned. Note the vast difference between that incident and what the latest Daemonology game rules would have us believe.

N0-1_H3r3
26-05-2014, 13:53
Yes but if you have imperial guard with GK allies why is their no penalty for the psyker. The GK simply just sit there and watch.
In which case, you should feel free to slap the player responsible with one, two, or all three of the books comprising the new rulebook.

If you're playing a force composed of Grey Knights and Imperial Guard, then of course summoning daemons is contrary to the background - the Grey Knights wouldn't just stand by. The rules don't support opening fire on your own units, whatever their faction... but that's a relative corner case, the tiny point of overlap between "people with Imperial armies willing to use daemons" and "people with Grey Knights allies".

All that aside, it's not exactly an efficient use of power. Basic summoning - the primaris - has a high cost, and the penalties applied to daemonology make it particularly hazardous to attempt a power that costly. Getting the one cheap summoning power is a matter of chance, and produces only a single independent character that can't join a unit (unless you've summoned other daemons) or benefit from Look Out, Sir (non-Chaos units don't count as friendly models) and which is limited in its contributions until next turn. Once the daemons are summoned, they've got a 1-in-6 chance of wasting the turn snarling and growling at their 'allies' if they start the turn within 6" of them (everyone other than daemons and chaos marines are "Desperate Allies" or "Come the Apocalypse" with regards to Daemons, and the factions rules apply regardless of how those units end up in the same force) - and those allies have the same chance of being immobilised by dread or loathing for their daemonic 'allies'.

Honestly, I don't see daemonology as being all that effective, outside of Chaos and Daemon armies - lots of cost and risk involved for inconsistent rewards.

N0-1_H3r3
26-05-2014, 14:31
Psykers draw power from the Warp for the powers they know, not for the powers they don't know. Otherwise astropaths, navigators, and a host of other psychic abilities simply wouldn't work.
And there's a clear and unbreachable line between "known powers" and "unknown powers", or is that merely a conceit of games design?

Navigators function differently - their powers are more akin to them being a passive gateway to the Warp. And how do you derive the idea of "simply wouldn't work" from "all powers come from the roiling, churning, hostile un-substance of the Warp".

Sanctioned Psykers are trained to focus their abilities in a particular way, and to employ their powers in more complex ways than they might be able to naturally. Doesn't mean that a psyker with no known powers is 'safe', which you're implying - untrained psykers naturally develop a variety of abilities without tuition.


Psykers are potentially dangerous to those around them but not specifically because of daemonic summoning. It is overwhelmingly more likely the untrained psyker is either possessed by daemons or becomes consumed by their own power, causing untold damage in either case. The Imperium also hunts down psykers to serve in various essential duties such as Astropathic choirs, the Astronomican, the Inquisition, Space Marine Librariums, and as food for the Emperor.
An untrained, unstable psyker can potentially doom a world. This isn't a single daemonic possession or the guy losing control over his minor innate abilities. This is the catastrophic consequences of the Warp being given an unrestrained conduit into the material universe.


So even if we assume that psykers somehow inherently know Daemonology (which is what you imply), then why do Imperial psykers all still know Daemonology after all these safeguards you describe?
Not so much as "inherently know" as "able to quite easily find out how to deliberately do it". All psykers - barring Tyranid ones, as they're not psykers in quite the same way - have the potential to summon daemons, because using a psychic power is drawing upon the Warp, and daemons are sentient entities within that realm, eager to find a way into the material universe - they want to be summoned, and are eternally searching for people and places and times that make it possible for them to cross over.

As for why Imperial Psykers can sometimes still summon psykers? Because the setting is far less black-and-white and much less divided along clear factional lines than you'd like to believe. Corruption lurks in even the most unexpected places, and temptation afflicts everyone, much as they'd like to deny it. Chaos is an existential threat, not only because of the slavering hordes and depraved traitors, but because knowledge of it is an insidious, crawling thing that infests the mind and cannot easily be expunged. You can take every conceivable precaution to prevent your psykers learning how to summon daemons... but the only one that works is also the only one that's impossible - the completely and absolute destruction of every psyker in the galaxy.


The problem is that according to Daemonology you can quite easily survive summoning a unit of Daemons, so you are quite clearly wrong. And as I said in another thread, if Daemonology really was that common and easy, the Imperium would have fallen long ago.
Because the internet is nothing if not a hotbed of hyperbole.

You've talked past my point - that the potential to summon daemons exists in all psykers is distinct from the knowledge to do it successfully, but that knowledge is far more widespread than you're willing to admit to, because it demonstrably clashes with a very neatly-segregated vision of the 40k universe, where there's no blurred lines between salvation and damnation.


None of what you describe should have made Daemonology easily accessible outside of Chaos. If you are summoning daemons then you are Chaos Marines, simple as that. You don't need to grant Dark Angels Daemonology to represent secret cults and hidden lore because that simply isn't their background. If GW wanted a daemon summoning loyalist Marine army they should have released an army list with fluff for them in White Dwarf, which is what they used to do. GW didn't need to give all Marines access to daemonic artefacts to represent the insidious influence of Chaos, because they invented the Relictors and people could play them instead. By the way, the Relictors were destroyed during the 13th Black Crusade by the Grey Knights for simply using Chaos artefacts. They didn't have to be summoning daemons to be considered heretics and traitors, so I have no idea how average Joe Librarian is going to explain his newest Bloodletter buddies to the Inquisition.
You don't have to summon daemons to be considered a heretic... but it helps.

Thing is, the Inquisition can't be everywhere - much as they claim otherwise - and individual Inquisitors have very different opinions on the matter (many believe that the tools of the enemy can be used against them, employing chaos artefacts and daemons in the defence of the Imperium - as much as this may be a shock to your sensibilities). The tools of Ruinous Powers are tantalisingly close, within reach of almost any psyker willing to reach out and harness them... and further, the tools that can be employed to banish and defeat daemons can so easily be turned to binding and commanding them.

Further, that the rules open up a possibility does not mean that it is a strict constant. The fact that an army's psykers have access to daemonology in any form does not mean that all psykers in that army are practising daemonologists... merely that the potential exists for some psykers in that faction to have learn those forbidden secrets.

Your attitude here is exactly what's wrong with a lot of approaches to the background - that it's another set of rules to be abided by or lawyered around, rather than a fluid and decidedly murky setting where the strict divides between factions are far less strict and divided than you've conned yourself into believing.

Felwether
26-05-2014, 14:45
Further, that the rules open up a possibility does not mean that it is a strict constant. The fact that an army's psykers have access to daemonology in any form does not mean that all psykers in that army are practising daemonologists... merely that the potential exists for some psykers in that faction to have learn those forbidden secrets.

Your attitude here is exactly what's wrong with a lot of approaches to the background - that it's another set of rules to be abided by or lawyered around, rather than a fluid and decidedly murky setting where the strict divides between factions are far less strict and divided than you've conned yourself into believing.

This. Well said N0-1_H3r3.

The fact that Daemonology is available to more than just Chaos doesn't mean that you have to use it and the fact that it exists shouldn't be considered a bad thing.

It's as unfluffy or fluffy as you make it.

EDIT: They've also managed to represent the extreme danger associated with it by making anyone other than actual daemons suffer perils on any double rather just double sixes. The act of summoning daemons isn't something to be taken lightly, even by the player.

Gungo
26-05-2014, 14:46
Yes, but if the summoned daemons come close to either the GK or IG models, they have to start rolling whether they do anything...

Also, interesting to note, all units except for battle brothers count as enemy units for the purpose of psychic powers.

So a psyker firing off a nova power after he summoned some daemons is going to hit those daemons, as any enemy unit in range is hit automatically...


BTW, I'm considering buying some daemon models to use whenever I field Ezekiel. Just for the heck of it. :-)
I wasn't impressed how gw handled apocalypse allies. They just made them desperate allies, they should of just added a new condition such as if your model is within 6in take a leadership test if u fail the unit falls back or is pinned and the desperate ally condition of doing nothing raised to 12 in.

DruidNei
26-05-2014, 15:21
And maybe the rules should represent general faction background not every 1 in a million possibility that sanctioned psyker would summon deamons to the battlefield? This is a death sentence for him anyway. Same goes for marine librarian. What would Eldar do if their Farseer would summon daemons. Would they give him a second chance to do that in next battle? Imperium (and wh40k world) is build upon fear of the unknown, aliens, heretics, all things chaos. By allowing every imperial force to summon daemons on game-by-game basis (or in every battle from fluff point of view), we are no longer playing with imperial force, we have heretics of the traitor guard or something like that.

Eldar are best non-chaos daemon summoning faction right now. This possibility can spawn multiple daemon summoning Edar craftworlds, while in the fluff we have none. For me this unchecked freedom is undermining the game background instead of improving or enriching it. In a world when xenophobia runs rampart we are seeing multiple allied forces between aliens and humans. Taudar were notorious for working together all over the tournament scene. I would much prefer to see uncommon parts of the universe not in the main game but left for expansions, house rules etc.

totgeboren
26-05-2014, 15:46
I agree with DruidNei. If the rules are suppose to represent these one in a million occurrences, why are my CSM suddenly Come the Apocalypse with my Traitor Guard? Why are they not the AM at the very least Allies of Convenience with the Tau? Both the Tau and especially Chaos has human armed forces under their command.

Is it because the rules in the AM codex is made to represent Imperial Guard, and not just any human military force? Same with Imperial Knights, they are Come the Apocalypse for Chaos too, even though their codex mentions Knights who turned to chaos.
I would say humans as BB with both CSM and with Tau would be faaaar more common than seeing Farseers summoning Daemonettes.

If the rules are written to represent how a faction in general acts (and not to represnt any force using their rules for count-as), then most imperials except some Inquisitors should not have access to especially Malefic powers. If they have access to malefic powers, why should not Space Wolves be Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines? The SW codex is after all often used to represent Khornate Marine armies, and the CSM codex is used to represent Iron Warriors, and the World Eaters and Iron Warriors are definitely Battle Brothers. Huron and his Corsairs were joined by a bunch of Space Wolves, so CSM and SW should definitely be BB.

This is if it's reasonable that the basic rules should allow every one-in-a-million occurrence to be represented.

NemoSD
26-05-2014, 15:46
Well, it's still important to budget your dice wisely so that you have enough to block the important powers - which means the mind game comes from attempting to draw dispel dice by casting minor powers, and daring your opponent to let them through (while keeping enough to get the big powers off).

Bet all them 40k people who poked fun at us Fantasy players for tricks like keeping dice pools out of sight, or letting my opponent think he succeeded by stopping a dwellers, only to see that unit of Phoenix Guard, trapping his hammer unit in a tar-pit suddenly return to full strength, aint going to be laughing now. They got some catching up to do :-p

N0-1_H3r3
26-05-2014, 16:08
And maybe the rules should represent general faction background not every 1 in a million possibility that sanctioned psyker would summon deamons to the battlefield? This is a death sentence for him anyway. Same goes for marine librarian. What would Eldar do if their Farseer would summon daemons. Would they give him a second chance to do that in next battle? Imperium (and wh40k world) is build upon fear of the unknown, aliens, heretics, all things chaos. By allowing every imperial force to summon daemons on game-by-game basis (or in every battle from fluff point of view), we are no longer playing with imperial force, we have heretics of the traitor guard or something like that.
And some people see the ability to represent such forces as a boon, rather than an affront. Traitor Guard, Crone World Eldar, newly renegade Space Marines for whom the rot hasn't set in so deeply, radical Inquisitors, and any other psyker who chooses to cross that line to assure victory.

The 40k universe is one of shades of grey, where the difference between right and wrong is more one of perspective than of absolutes, and where even the most noble of heroes commits atrocities in the name of survival, and the cruellest of villains are somewhat justified in their depravity.


Eldar are best non-chaos daemon summoning faction right now. This possibility can spawn multiple daemon summoning Edar craftworlds, while in the fluff we have none. For me this unchecked freedom is undermining the game background instead of improving or enriching it.
Because gods forbid that people actually have freedom and flexibility in the background of their wargame, rather than a series of tropes enforced as rules.


In a world when xenophobia runs rampart we are seeing multiple allied forces between aliens and humans. Taudar were notorious for working together all over the tournament scene.
Allow me to state it clearly for you.

The choices made by individual players in terms of how they compose or employ their armies are not inherently indicative of the nature of the background.

That aside, the tournament scene is not my preference, and while I will not begrudge individuals their own ways of having fun, I can honestly say that I would not give a second thought if the entire tournament culture that has infested 40k were to vanish entirely without a trace.


I would much prefer to see uncommon parts of the universe not in the main game but left for expansions, house rules etc.
Neat and compartmentalised and inoffensive to your delicate sensibilities, eh? And, of course, adding greater complexities of interaction with every new expansion, giving internet communities the world over ever more opportunities to bitch and moan relentlessly.

Every time you add a new expansion to cover a corner case, rather than building flexibility into the main game and setting, you increase complexity. An overabundance of complexity leads to an expanding number of loopholes and exploits.

Felwether
26-05-2014, 16:17
I agree with DruidNei. If the rules are suppose to represent these one in a million occurrences, why are my CSM suddenly Come the Apocalypse with my Traitor Guard? Why are they not the AM at the very least Allies of Convenience with the Tau? Both the Tau and especially Chaos has human armed forces under their command.

Is it because the rules in the AM codex is made to represent Imperial Guard, and not just any human military force? Same with Imperial Knights, they are Come the Apocalypse for Chaos too, even though their codex mentions Knights who turned to chaos.
I would say humans as BB with both CSM and with Tau would be faaaar more common than seeing Farseers summoning Daemonettes.

If the rules are written to represent how a faction in general acts (and not to represnt any force using their rules for count-as), then most imperials except some Inquisitors should not have access to especially Malefic powers. If they have access to malefic powers, why should not Space Wolves be Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines? The SW codex is after all often used to represent Khornate Marine armies, and the CSM codex is used to represent Iron Warriors, and the World Eaters and Iron Warriors are definitely Battle Brothers. Huron and his Corsairs were joined by a bunch of Space Wolves, so CSM and SW should definitely be BB.

This is if it's reasonable that the basic rules should allow every one-in-a-million occurrence to be represented.

The basic rules do allow for these one in a million occurrences to be represented.

If you want to, you can now build your army using the Unbound rules. Do it man, the more cool, fluffy armies built along the lines of the examples you've provided the better. :D:yes:

NemoSD
26-05-2014, 16:20
Players will always ignore fluff for the advantage. If this offends you now all of a sudden, where have you been for the last two decades?

Reasons Space Marine might summon a demon: Oops... that wasn't supposed to happen.
Reasons Space Marines buddies don't gun down buddy or demon right off the bat. No one may realize the Liberian accidentally summoned a demon, and since the demon just charged off to beat down whoever the SMs are fighting, they decide to let it wreck their enemy at hand, and deal with it when they have to deal with it.

Sure, the above isn't always the case, but there are hundreds of ways to explain these things without ever violating the established fluff. The problem is that some people think in rigid can or can not.

And at the end of the day, regardless of the fluff, some people just like to push models on the table and win. The fluff doesn't matter to many members of this crowd, only the current FOTM. The people who the fluff matters to will think about their armies and how it reflects their army composition.

totgeboren
26-05-2014, 16:24
The basic rules do allow for these one in a million occurrences to be represented.

If you want to, you can now build your army using the Unbound rules. Do it man, the more cool, fluffy armies built along the lines of the examples you've provided the better. :D:yes:

Yeah, but... well, you know what I mean. :p

Ssilmath
26-05-2014, 16:33
Yeah, but... well, you know what I mean. :p

Personally, the million in one events are what is interesting. Were we to keep to the normal parts of the universe, then seeing Guardsmen fighting Orks or traitors would make up the majority of the games played. Space Marine assaults would be dropping in with overwhelming points advantage to utterly crush the other army, and then waiting for the Guard to exploit the opening.

Thrax
26-05-2014, 16:55
Cool, I want the rules to reflect EVERY weird possibility that could happen in a far-future space fantasy! I want all my guardsmen to randomly turn into hulking ogryn because they drank the local water and the nearby sun is giving off weird radiation! I want the chance for vehicles to instantly rust solid because of a battle's corrosive atmosphere! Better yet, I want the chance of any vehicle to turn into a Necron transformer/vanguard/ spy/assassin thingie! I want the possibility that squats emerge from killed space marines, because they weren't actually killed off but they've been hiding in space marine costumes for years!

GIVE ME OPTIONS!!!

DruidNei
26-05-2014, 18:02
The choices made by individual players in terms of how they compose or employ their armies are not inherently indicative of the nature of the background.

Unbound lists are not indicative of the background. Someone can make count-as list that is not indicative to the background. But choices written in the army book are representative to the background.

Army lists are meant to represent typical forces, commanders and troops used by factions. They stand for what faction will usually do to win. One guy summoning daemons can find a place in narrative battle, but it's not a viable tactic for whole faction and shouldn't be listed as such. This is not a common option without any limitation. Taking more than two heavy weapons per squad is a problem, but somehow summoning found a way to every psyker in the galaxy and beyond. Only Tyranids are left in their corner.

What would you think of fluff how their shadow of the warp summons daemons by forcing them out of warp and into material world then driving into killing frenzy when running away from Tyranid forces?

N0-1_H3r3
26-05-2014, 18:56
[B]
What would you think of fluff how their shadow of the warp summons daemons by forcing them out of warp and into material world then driving into killing frenzy when running away from Tyranid forces?
Not without precedent - the idea that Tyranid psykers are inherently different to everyone else is a relatively new one, and back in the Rogue Trader era, the Genestealer Cult armylist was as connected to Chaos Cults as to the Genestealers themselves (indeed, Genestealer Patriarchs were noted as allying with the forces of Chaos).

The background has been evolving for more than a quarter of a century. Back when Rogue Trader was first released, Chaos wasn't mentioned at all in the rulebook - it wasn't a part of the setting until the Realms of Chaos books added it. Space Marines were illiterate convicts with a few surgical implants until the latter years of that edition. The Eldar went from piratical raiders to the scattered remnants of a dying civilisation during that edition. In second edition, we got actual details on the Traitor Legions that we hadn't had until that point, the introduction of half the special characters we still have today, and full development of both the Tyranids and the Adepta Sororitas from a few scattered paragraphs into full armies, as well as the original introduction of the Necrons. And that's just the first decade.

The idea that the background is inviolable and unchanging, and that it must always be presented in a singular, specific manner, is a notion that cannot withstand any contact with the truth - the setting as it is now is not the setting it was ten years ago, and while some of the changes are remarked upon, most of it is incorporated without comment.

Drasanil
26-05-2014, 19:24
EDIT: They've also managed to represent the extreme danger associated with it by making anyone other than actual daemons suffer perils on any double rather just double sixes. The act of summoning daemons isn't something to be taken lightly, even by the player.

Unless you've got an eldar farseer who incidentally is the single best summoner in the game. Risk free (ghosthelm), easier to cast (spirit stone) and double dipping on GDs (Phoenix Gem) :p

Slayer-Fan123
26-05-2014, 20:24
Cool, I want the rules to reflect EVERY weird possibility that could happen in a far-future space fantasy! I want all my guardsmen to randomly turn into hulking ogryn because they drank the local water and the nearby sun is giving off weird radiation! I want the chance for vehicles to instantly rust solid because of a battle's corrosive atmosphere! Better yet, I want the chance of any vehicle to turn into a Necron transformer/vanguard/ spy/assassin thingie! I want the possibility that squats emerge from killed space marines, because they weren't actually killed off but they've been hiding in space marine costumes for years!

GIVE ME OPTIONS!!!
The Necron one makes no sense and neither does the Squats one, but the first two listed would be awesome scenarios.

Bugaboo
26-05-2014, 20:50
Players will always ignore fluff for the advantage. If this offends you now all of a sudden, where have you been for the last two decades?

Reasons Space Marine might summon a demon: Oops... that wasn't supposed to happen.
Reasons Space Marines buddies don't gun down buddy or demon right off the bat. No one may realize the Liberian accidentally summoned a demon, and since the demon just charged off to beat down whoever the SMs are fighting, they decide to let it wreck their enemy at hand, and deal with it when they have to deal with it.

Sure, the above isn't always the case, but there are hundreds of ways to explain these things without ever violating the established fluff. The problem is that some people think in rigid can or can not.

And at the end of the day, regardless of the fluff, some people just like to push models on the table and win. The fluff doesn't matter to many members of this crowd, only the current FOTM. The people who the fluff matters to will think about their armies and how it reflects their army composition.

So much this that the word this would lose all meaning were I to type it as many times as I'd like. Fluff heresy has only become a thing when people want an excuse to whine and moan. People act like it's never been a thing, but tell that to the people fielding Grey Knights as 1K Sons and Nurgle Spawn in Slaaneshi armies because "being tougher is more Slaanesh".