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View Full Version : OP armies or OP specific lists?



Alojolo
23-05-2014, 00:59
I'm wondering whether people find some armies to be OP because of their own armybook rules without taking into account other things, or if it might well be a matter of specific lists or builds. Maybe both.

In any case, please do state any army or specific lists/builds that you find to be OP in the current meta and explain your choice.

MOMUS
23-05-2014, 02:13
I like beastmen

Alojolo
23-05-2014, 02:40
Oh well...

Alltaken
23-05-2014, 03:32
Well I dont play woc or doc, but I love nurgle,and would probably play mono god, I might get called cheesy, but its a fluff thing for me

From my servoskull

Snake1311
23-05-2014, 10:25
Its a lot more specific than that. Usually comes down to OP units or even equipment

Daniel36
23-05-2014, 10:53
I think army lists tailored to their power level with no regard to theme lame and don't play them. Give me a thematic, cinematic battle over meta-gaming any day.

Metacarpi
23-05-2014, 14:22
Well I dont play woc or doc, but I love nurgle,and would probably play mono god, I might get called cheesy, but its a fluff thing for me

From my servoskull

All of my this. I've been a fan of Papa Nurgle for as long as I can remember, and have always built my lists around a strong Nurgle theme

Alojolo
23-05-2014, 14:34
I'm a huge Nurgle fan too. I played Nurgle Daemons back in 7th and I'm willing to play them now in 8th. Although I don't know how much I'd like the "randomness" of the current book.

Daenerys Targaryen
23-05-2014, 14:52
In Fantasy the problem is more is less OP lists, which typically go out of their way to combine 2-3+ undercosted units and/or rather moronic items, alongside a few naughty spells.

DoC for example are only OP if you spam things like Beasts of Nurgle units, double Khannon, Cacobomb + Fiend screen, min/max Horrors, etc...
While Nurgle is still overall really powerful in the current book, you can tone it down easily enough by not exploiting Beasts, leave Epi at home (and not sitting in a Portalglyph where he still gives out his bonuses!), avoid a flying Purplefun Prince, ect...



Compare that to 40k where the past 4 years have been outright dominated by codex creep.
ie: Grey Knights ruled late 5th, Newcrons dominated early 6th with massed flyers, Tau are damn near impossible to be nice with, followed by Eldar shenanigans, etc...

Mozzamanx
23-05-2014, 20:01
Power is definitely going to be a function of the list/units rather than an overall problem with the book. You could make a book that was largely filled with overcosted, underperforming garbage, but as long as it has just enough cheese to make a powerlist it will be regarded as powerful. A strong book might have more than one viable list in it, but all books will be defined by their most powerful constituent parts because that is what players will gravitate towards.
Say we had 2 different books to compare:

- The first is strong across the board, boasting exceptional infantry at extremely generous costs with decent support elements and no 'bad' choices. All of the choices fall within this area of power-cost.
- The second is largely awful, with stats that are far below the asking costs and conflicting rules and abilities. However, among the ~20 dud choices, the book also boasts 2-3 units that are grossly broken and has abilities far beyond its costing.

Most would say that the second is the more powerful, because the 90% of the book that sucks is simply not used, while the remaining broken components will be present in every army produced. Even if the rest of the book is unworkable, it is carried by the strongest elements and so these are what defines a power level in my eyes.
This is why I consider, say Daemons, to be stronger than say, Dark Elves. Because while Dark Elves are excellent across the board, Skullcannons and Beasts are like diamonds in the rough that single-handedly pull the Daemon book ahead. It doesn't matter that the Bloodletters, Chariots and Heralds are all a bit rubbish if they are not mandatory choices.
Of course the player suffers in that they are pigeonholed into certain builds, but choice and flexibility are wholly separate to power and should not be confused.

Daenerys Targaryen
24-05-2014, 18:18
Power is definitely going to be a function of the list/units rather than an overall problem with the book. You could make a book that was largely filled with overcosted, underperforming garbage, but as long as it has just enough cheese to make a powerlist it will be regarded as powerful. A strong book might have more than one viable list in it, but all books will be defined by their most powerful constituent parts because that is what players will gravitate towards.
Say we had 2 different books to compare:

- The first is strong across the board, boasting exceptional infantry at extremely generous costs with decent support elements and no 'bad' choices. All of the choices fall within this area of power-cost.
- The second is largely awful, with stats that are far below the asking costs and conflicting rules and abilities. However, among the ~20 dud choices, the book also boasts 2-3 units that are grossly broken and has abilities far beyond its costing.

Most would say that the second is the more powerful, because the 90% of the book that sucks is simply not used, while the remaining broken components will be present in every army produced. Even if the rest of the book is unworkable, it is carried by the strongest elements and so these are what defines a power level in my eyes.
This is why I consider, say Daemons, to be stronger than say, Dark Elves. Because while Dark Elves are excellent across the board, Skullcannons and Beasts are like diamonds in the rough that single-handedly pull the Daemon book ahead. It doesn't matter that the Bloodletters, Chariots and Heralds are all a bit rubbish if they are not mandatory choices.
Of course the player suffers in that they are pigeonholed into certain builds, but choice and flexibility are wholly separate to power and should not be confused.

The DoC book in your example is only a "more powerful book" if your one and only concern is purely based on winning % when using the 'broken' units.

Most people consider the DoC book to be a steaming pile of fecal matter because there are no choices in it! Almost everything is pigeonholed into very specific ways to use the various units & characters.
Compare that to a book like VC's or Empire or Dark Elves where most everything can be made useful, thus giving much greater freedom of choice to let the player decide for themselves how they want their army to look/feel and play out on the battlefield.

Mozzamanx
24-05-2014, 18:33
The DoC book in your example is only a "more powerful book" if your one and only concern is purely based on winning % when using the 'broken' units.

Most people consider the DoC book to be a steaming pile of fecal matter because there are no choices in it! Almost everything is pigeonholed into very specific ways to use the various units & characters.
Compare that to a book like VC's or Empire or Dark Elves where most everything can be made useful, thus giving much greater freedom of choice to let the player decide for themselves how they want their army to look/feel and play out on the battlefield.

But that's exactly my point. It doesn't matter that the majority of the book is trash; ask 2 players to make the most overpowered armies they can, with one using Daemons and the other your choice of Dwarf/Elf/Lizard/Empire etc, and I'd wager that the Daemon player has the winning list. Whether the player is enjoying himself, is using a balanced list or is being creative is wholly irrelevant; the question was what causes an army to be overpowered. A lack of choice doesn't mean anything if the remainder is still enough to kerbstomp the opponent in a competitive game and ultimately this is how the power of an army is determined.

Daenerys Targaryen
25-05-2014, 00:17
But that's exactly my point. It doesn't matter that the majority of the book is trash; ask 2 players to make the most overpowered armies they can, with one using Daemons and the other your choice of Dwarf/Elf/Lizard/Empire etc, and I'd wager that the Daemon player has the winning list. Whether the player is enjoying himself, is using a balanced list or is being creative is wholly irrelevant; the question was what causes an army to be overpowered. A lack of choice doesn't mean anything if the remainder is still enough to kerbstomp the opponent in a competitive game and ultimately this is how the power of an army is determined.

Except that being purely 100% competitive is only a concern for a very small minority of players.
The vast majority of players care nothing for Tournaments and what's the top meta gaming lists to (ab)use.

In 8th edition, there really are no OP books at all anymore. (excluding those books still awaiting their update!)

DoC in 7th were an OP book because pretty much every single unit option outside of the oddball choice like the Daemon Prince, was at least slightly better than their equivalents in other books.
No 8th ed book even begins to compare to this however, hence there being no outright OP books in 8th.
On the other hand, each 8th ed book does have at least a couple of standout options that when taken to the exclusion of most other options, can make a highly OTT/abusive army.

And honestly, if we're going by pure cheddar factor, a HE Light Coven gunline featuring Alarielle & BoA + BotWD is far filthier than even a DoC Cacobomb. Let alone the antics that DE's are still capable of...

Ultimate Life Form
25-05-2014, 00:30
Playing against WAAC players simply isn't fun, regardless of army.

Spiney Norman
25-05-2014, 07:03
I'm wondering whether people find some armies to be OP because of their own armybook rules without taking into account other things, or if it might well be a matter of specific lists or builds. Maybe both.

In any case, please do state any army or specific lists/builds that you find to be OP in the current meta and explain your choice.

It depends on how bad the book is, basically I have seen both.

Back in 7th edition is was really hard to write a chaos daemon army that wasn't overpowered because almost everything in the book was, that was a good example of an overpowered army book.

On the other hand I would probably go so far as to say there are no completely overpowered armies in the current edition, just overpowered builds if you play the WoC chimera/Daemon prince game, some ogre builds can be pretty filthy too (gutstar and cannon wagons).