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View Full Version : Why does every Battleforce/ Strike force have a dealbreaker?



Metal Handkerchief
23-05-2014, 20:43
Seems every battleforce / big battleforce has one or more models I don't want to touch with a 6-foot pole.

Chaos Marines -> Forgefiend
Necrons -> Ghost Ark, Scarabs
SM (Strikeforce) -> Venerable Dread, Scouts
Eldar -> Vyper, Guardians
Tyranids -> The entire thing is a joke except for Hormagaunts

Exceptions being Tau, Dark Eldar and Orks. Don't know or care about all the little SM chapters, GK or anything not mentioned


Why can't we have nice things?

Theocracity
23-05-2014, 20:51
Why can't we have nice things?

Because subjective preferences aren't universal traits.

dooms33ker
23-05-2014, 20:54
It's because GW makes more money selling the better units and models separately, and bundles models that don't sell as well in these battleforces in an effort to entice cost conscientious gamers and those just getting into the hobby. The forgefiend and Ghost Ark aren't terrible choices, really, and the models are fantastic, which is what some folks buying these sets care most about. Their formation sets are considerably better for gaming, albeit quite expensive.

Personally, I agree with you about battleforces and strikeforces not being desirable, and we're pretty much in the same boat it seems as far as wanting competitive models and competitive prices.

Metal Handkerchief
23-05-2014, 20:55
Because subjective preferences aren't universal traits.

I'm talking universally. Of my entire local gaming group, which represents players within all armies except Space Wolves and Black Templars, the only battleforces that are liked by their respective armies' players is the Dark Eldar, Tau and Ork battleforces.


The forgefiend and Ghost Ark aren't terrible choices, really, and the models are fantastic

They may not be terrible choices, but the consensus around here, and my personal opinion, is that they are so ugly that they aren't fieldworthy even if they were downright amazing rules wise.

Forge/ mauler fiend in particular, looks like a horrible toy out of Fisher Price.

underscore
23-05-2014, 20:58
Nah, the Forgemaulers look great.

Saunders
23-05-2014, 20:59
Everything you listed is something that I would like to have in the armies I have, or if I played those armies.

Entirely subjective. The problem seems to be, IMO, that you want GW to custom-build battleforce boxes for you :P Why would there be an eldar battleforce that didn't have guardians? That's almost like complaining that an IG battleforce had guardsmen in it; guardians are the core aesthetic of the Craftworld Eldar army.

Theocracity
23-05-2014, 21:02
I'm talking universally.


Of my entire local gaming group

You do know what universal means, right?

Lord Damocles
23-05-2014, 21:21
Perhaps we're not supposed/expected to just buy the toy soldiers which are have the bestest rules.


Also, Vypers are pretty good, and Dark Eldar Wyches are generally considered to be horrible. So yeah...

dooms33ker
23-05-2014, 21:25
OP, take a look at this one: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Militarum-Tempestus-Storm-Scions

Competitive, with some fantastic models, and a $73 discount over buying the models individually, this set is definitely a steal.

Tay051173096
23-05-2014, 21:27
...

The only bad thing in the chaos one is the rhino...

The fiend and the raptors are lovely. Thank the dark gods there are no damned berzerkers in the box.

Tay051173096
23-05-2014, 21:27
...

The only bad thing in the chaos one is the rhino...

The fiend and the raptors are lovely. Thank the dark gods there are no damned berzerkers in the box.

Bookwrak
23-05-2014, 22:02
You do know what universal means, right?

No, he doesn't.

Dkoz
23-05-2014, 22:22
Also he is wrong about the Ghost-ark that is a down right cool looking model.

AngryAngel
23-05-2014, 22:35
Makes simple business sense they bundle some poor selling units with good selling ones. Similar to DVD sets that sell one very good movie of a certain actor, in a 3 pack, and the other 2 are invariably terrible and only ever liked because of the Awful is great mentality some people might have. Though I would like some of the kool aid people are drinking saying some of the poor units in the bundles are good, I wonder if up is down and left is right once I drink it.

AmaroK
23-05-2014, 22:40
Makes simple business sense they bundle some poor selling units with good selling ones. Similar to DVD sets that sell one very good movie of a certain actor, in a 3 pack, and the other 2 are invariably terrible and only ever liked because of the Awful is great mentality some people might have. Though I would like some of the kool aid people are drinking saying some of the poor units in the bundles are good, I wonder if up is down and left is right once I drink it.

So if the OP doesnīt like some options in the bundles, they are poor selling ones. Makes sense...

AngryAngel
23-05-2014, 22:43
No, but if you look at them I can see what he see's with why they have some eh deals inside of them. So do in fact most everyone I play with, as we've talked of it to some extent. Perhaps its something in the water in some areas of the world ? It lets us see behind the They Live covert messages that tell some, all the units within are great.

Now, hold in, not all are terrible deals, the new scion one for instance, is great for a Tempestus army, but for the guard ? I could see those taurox being what you go hmmm about, for instance.

Minsc
23-05-2014, 22:43
I'm talking universally.


Of my entire local gaming group, [...]

LOL. :rolleyes:

Thanks for a good laugh.


Why can't we have nice things?

CSM: A forgefiend is actually pretty solid, especially now in 7th when it's harder to one-hit it.
Necrons: Ghost Arks are decent. They'd been quite good if Nightscythes weren't such no-brainers. Scarabs where really good in 6th (when the kit came, afaik) - they're still pretty decent, but not the nobrainers they once where.
SM: Venerable Dreads are quite good in 7th. Scouts are as solid as ever.
Eldar: Vypers are quite decent and so are Guardians.
Tyranids: Can't comment on this one because frankly I don't know what it contains.

Really, the only conclusion I can draw from your statement is that unless a unit is a no-brainer/really powerful, you don't want it in a Battle/Strikeforce, and hence not in your army either.

AmaroK
23-05-2014, 22:51
LOL. :rolleyes:

Thanks for a good laugh.



CSM: A forgefiend is actually pretty solid, especially now in 7th when it's harder to one-hit it.
Necrons: Ghost Arks are decent. They'd been quite good if Nightscythes weren't such no-brainers. Scarabs where really good in 6th (when the kit came, afaik) - they're still pretty decent, but not the nobrainers they once where.
SM: Venerable Dreads are quite good in 7th. Scouts are as solid as ever.
Eldar: Vypers are quite decent and so are Guardians.
Tyranids: Can't comment on this one because frankly I don't know what it contains.

Really, the only conclusion I can draw from your statement is that unless a unit is a no-brainer/really powerful, you don't want it in a Battle/Strikeforce, and hence not in your army either.

Though this is not pointed to you, this is the main problem with the battleforces most of the time: veterans want their OP/needed/fancy/whatever units all in the same bundle, all at a great price. Often people judge them about the rules and not about the models. Thats not the point of those forces, nor can address every personal taste in the world. Most of those bundles are "starters" and in this regard, they have a bit of everything (SM christmas megaforces boxes) or fit to a theme (Eldar box with the Spectral units). Some contain uber units, some not...

AngryAngel
23-05-2014, 23:15
I might also say, that when the models cost so much more then they once did not too long ago even. People don't want to waste money on under performing units. Only the die hards spend the money on the fluff units over the crunch units. So while some say " I'd love that model for my army " other people just want to spend the money on the performing units and perhaps branch out to the poor ones when they can afford it and wish to mix things up.

AmaroK
23-05-2014, 23:28
I might also say, that when the models cost so much more then they once did not too long ago even. People don't want to waste money on under performing units. Only the die hards spend the money on the fluff units over the crunch units. So while some say " I'd love that model for my army " other people just want to spend the money on the performing units and perhaps branch out to the poor ones when they can afford it and wish to mix things up.

Hence the concept "underperforming" means poor sales, so they are included in the bundles. But for the concept "underperforming" there should be other that are "overperforming" that people want the most. So if people want those units, GW produces them, rules and models wise, because the customer is always right. And there goes the balance away...

Really, if we could forget about the rules for a while, we could consider if bundles are good or not. If I get a 3x2 aircrafts models, Im not looking if they have more effective/fast/modern planes, but if I like the kits.

AngryAngel
23-05-2014, 23:43
I agree with your viewing of it. However, if you buy the models for the game, it doesn't matter really if one looks nicer then another, if the nice looking model is poor value in the game. As well, balance and GW don't go hand in hand, we've been told many many times that GW doesn't care about balance but about giving you models and ability to use them in game, so lets over look the balance issue, as GW does anyways.

Now if you just by models for the hobby aspect, then sure get what looks nice, and the rules won't really matter to you. The OP was speaking in a game oriented mindset, not the hobby one, so as a gamer, I see the underperforming units being bundled there.

AmaroK
24-05-2014, 00:08
I agree with your viewing of it. However, if you buy the models for the game, it doesn't matter really if one looks nicer then another, if the nice looking model is poor value in the game. As well, balance and GW don't go hand in hand, we've been told many many times that GW doesn't care about balance but about giving you models and ability to use them in game, so lets over look the balance issue, as GW does anyways.

Now if you just by models for the hobby aspect, then sure get what looks nice, and the rules won't really matter to you. The OP was speaking in a game oriented mindset, not the hobby one, so as a gamer, I see the underperforming units being bundled there.

Sure. But the issue is that people claim again and again that they want a balanced game, but they are always looking for the overpowered/overperforming unit no matter what. And you know what? As hard as it may sound, GW gives them what they want. And the "all the units in a bundle are not optimal" is a consecuence of this thinking, and it will continue the "unbalance" problem (it its really a problem, but thatīs another discussion)

Any book, videogame, music bundle will have good, avarage and bad stuff, either from an objective or subjective point of view (or both). Wanting them to be 100% perfect for anybody is an utopia. Btw, they can bought by more than 1 and suddenly a not so optimal bundle can be more than good when shared. A friend and me bought the x2 stormtalon x1 stormraven box, he got one of each and I got just the talon. We both got what we wanted with a decent discount, all happy (even if the talon may be seen as sub-optimal XD)

underscore
24-05-2014, 00:11
Sure. But the issue is that people claim again and again that they want a balanced game, but they are always looking for the overpowered/overperforming unit no matter what.
Of course - that's the nice thing about a balanced game, you're able to play it to the fullest of your abilities and the other player can still have fun.

AngryAngel
24-05-2014, 00:19
Sure. But the issue is that people claim again and again that they want a balanced game, but they are always looking for the overpowered/overperforming unit no matter what. And you know what? As hard as it may sound, GW gives them what they want. And the "all the units in a bundle are not optimal" is a consecuence of this thinking, and it will continue the "unbalance" problem (it its really a problem, but thatīs another discussion)

Any book, videogame, music bundle will have good, avarage and bad stuff, either from an objective or subjective point of view (or both). Wanting them to be 100% perfect for anybody is an utopia. Btw, they can bought by more than 1 and suddenly a not so optimal bundle can be more than good when shared. A friend and me bought the x2 stormtalon x1 stormraven box, he got one of each and I got just the talon. We both got what we wanted with a decent discount, all happy (even if the talon may be seen as sub-optimal XD)


Of course - that's the nice thing about a balanced game, you're able to play it to the fullest of your abilities and the other player can still have fun.

Exactly, if GW gave us a much better balanced ( note I didn't say perfect ) game, then there wouldn't be these under performing units, and all would have a reasonable chance of success for what it does. Which is why some, wish it to be more balanced.

Somehow saying because people want the best units, means that GW is free from the blame is, crazy. So your blaming the player for the game designers making unbalanced units and/or books ? Though sure, your right, it's all our fault again, our WAAC ways have brow beaten GW to just keep giving us all the OP things we demand, and they have zero responsibility for not balancing things. I personally am sorry I destroyed the game with my must win needs.

You see, sure, getting book, music, video, game bundles you do get bad stuff, your also not paying near 300 dollars for said bundles so you can afford some bad for your buck.

AmaroK
24-05-2014, 00:22
Of course - that's the nice thing about a balanced game, you're able to play it to the fullest of your abilities and the other player can still have fun.

And which game is that? Besides the games that mirror the armies, profiles, gameplays etc, thats it...

AmaroK
24-05-2014, 00:33
Exactly, if GW gave us a much better balanced ( note I didn't say perfect ) game, then there wouldn't be these under performing units, and all would have a reasonable chance of success for what it does. Which is why some, wish it to be more balanced.

Somehow saying because people want the best units, means that GW is free from the blame is, crazy. So your blaming the player for the game designers making unbalanced units and/or books ? Though sure, your right, it's all our fault again, our WAAC ways have brow beaten GW to just keep giving us all the OP things we demand, and they have zero responsibility for not balancing things. I personally am sorry I destroyed the game with my must win needs.

You see, sure, getting book, music, video, game bundles you do get bad stuff, your also not paying near 300 dollars for said bundles so you can afford some bad for your buck.

Thatīs exactly what I am doing: blaming the customers. Customers get what they want from companies, and companies give them what they want or they have to close. If costumers would REALLY want a balanced game, it would have been ages that GW would have been doing that. But its false. They say they want that, the pretend that, but as soon as an overpowered unit appears, the majority jumps into that unit and buy it in droves instead of rejecting it as gamebreaking. If a codex is balanced and nothing is over the top, its discarded as dull, boring, mediocre and so/so. Check in the fantasy section why people complained about Lizardmen army book: it wasnīt because it wasnīt balanced...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?393947-Why-do-people-complain-about-the-Lizardmen-book

I see it everyday in my LGS, everytime an army book/codex is released, in any game is played there: most (luckily not all) of the players want to take as much adventage as they can to win over their rivals, and break the "balance" in order to do so (not a bad thing, but certainly not a balancing attitude). Warhammer players do it, Magic players do it, Infinity players do it, Bolt action players do it, and so on...

AngryAngel
24-05-2014, 00:41
Ok, I played balanced, I played all through the DA 4 ed codex, if it wasn't balanced, I don't know what it was. The company has said multiple times it doesn't care what the customers want, it makes what it wants and how it wants It or balance would be more closely looked at. However, they do a very good job in scolding the customers for using their own shoddy rules as their written, so much so they turn on one another, as opposed to hold the company to blame for poor rules balance.

Thing is, if there isn't as much there to take advantage of, it wouldn't happen to the extent we see it. When you release say, a riptide along side a taurox for instance, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see just from stats which one is better.

If the core mechanics were tighter and they trimmed down on allies and the like, and went through a whole edition with balanced books, then no one would have OP things to ruin the game on, would they ? Though you can go ahead and blame everyone but who makes the game however, they are heathens and deserve your scorn to be sure.

Though I will say, this is just awfully off topic, so I suggest we stop such. I am sure people see why the bundles have poor units in them and that was really all that was asked.

AmaroK
24-05-2014, 00:52
Ok, I played balanced, I played all through the DA 4 ed codex, if it wasn't balanced, I don't know what it was. The company has said multiple times it doesn't care what the customers want, it makes what it wants and how it wants It or balance would be more closely looked at. However, they do a very good job in scolding the customers for using their own shoddy rules as their written, so much so they turn on one another, as opposed to hold the company to blame for poor rules balance.

Thing is, if there isn't as much there to take advantage of, it wouldn't happen to the extent we see it. When you release say, a riptide along side a taurox for instance, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see just from stats which one is better.

If the core mechanics were tighter and they trimmed down on allies and the like, and went through a whole edition with balanced books, then no one would have OP things to ruin the game on, would they ? Though you can go ahead and blame everyone but who makes the game however, they are heathens and deserve your scorn to be sure.

Though I will say, this is just awfully off topic, so I suggest we stop such. I am sure people see why the bundles have poor units in them and that was really all that was asked.

Sorry, but a company doesnīt care what the customers want but still they are #1 in their sector for over 20 years? Its hard to believe. Anyways, as you are right about getting offtopic, we stop here. For many people battleforces are good, for others they are not so good, its hard to please everybody.

ss_cherubael
24-05-2014, 01:46
Dumbest discussion I have seen in a while.

Boils down to:
"Why does the supermarket stock diet coke, I don't like it and my friends don't like it, how does it even sell? /rant"

underscore
24-05-2014, 01:50
And which game is that? Besides the games that mirror the armies, profiles, gameplays etc, thats it...
I mean, it's not like it's a black and white balanced/un-balanced thing. All I know is that, when it comes to concern about your opponent's enjoyment/self-balancing, 40k is probably top of the tree in the games I play.

Slayer-Fan123
24-05-2014, 03:40
...Does this guy actually PLAY Necrons?

DoctorTom
24-05-2014, 05:56
Sorry, but a company doesnīt care what the customers want but still they are #1 in their sector for over 20 years? Its hard to believe.

Microsoft. Cable television companies. Diamond Comics ( though that's only been that way for the last 15 years for them).


On topic, it's a fair claim for some sets - Vypers haven't been worth it for a while compared to other choices. Now, if theey could do a kamikaze ramming attack it might be a different story.

Metal Handkerchief
24-05-2014, 17:00
I am not talking just rules here, a bad model also makes a battleforce undesirable for me. Forge fiend and Ghost Ark as mentioned examples of bad models in Battleforces but perfectly capable rules-wise.


Boils down to:
"Why does the supermarket stock diet coke, I don't like it and my friends don't like it, how does it even sell? /rant"

That's not at all comparable.

It's more along the lines of, "buy 3 Diet coke, get 1 horse stool for free!"

Saunders
24-05-2014, 17:13
That's not at all comparable.

It's more along the lines of, "buy 3 Diet coke, get 1 horse stool for free!"

Nah, it's more like "buy 1 coke, 1 cherry coke, 1 sprite; get 1 diet coke for free!"

...why am I even doing this? I've got to find something better to do with my time.

Theocracity
24-05-2014, 17:22
...why am I even doing this? I've got to find something better to do with my time.

A question I ask myself constantly these days, and one that's often solved by actually participating in the hobby and game rather than talking about it :p.

SpanielBear
24-05-2014, 18:31
A question I ask myself constantly these days, and one that's often solved by actually participating in the hobby and game rather than talking about it :p.

Do what I do. When the relentless hate ('gainst which man cannot stand) begins to overwhelm me, go spend some time in the Project Logs. It's a happy place! :)

Slayer-Fan123
24-05-2014, 18:31
Thatīs exactly what I am doing: blaming the customers. Customers get what they want from companies, and companies give them what they want or they have to close. If costumers would REALLY want a balanced game, it would have been ages that GW would have been doing that. But its false. They say they want that, the pretend that, but as soon as an overpowered unit appears, the majority jumps into that unit and buy it in droves instead of rejecting it as gamebreaking. If a codex is balanced and nothing is over the top, its discarded as dull, boring, mediocre and so/so. Check in the fantasy section why people complained about Lizardmen army book: it wasnīt because it wasnīt balanced...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?393947-Why-do-people-complain-about-the-Lizardmen-book

I see it everyday in my LGS, everytime an army book/codex is released, in any game is played there: most (luckily not all) of the players want to take as much adventage as they can to win over their rivals, and break the "balance" in order to do so (not a bad thing, but certainly not a balancing attitude). Warhammer players do it, Magic players do it, Infinity players do it, Bolt action players do it, and so on...

Absolutely incorrect about how people feel about balanced codices. There's a reason the Space Marine one still gets praise and the Chaos Space Marine one is absolutely hated.

underscore
24-05-2014, 18:39
If a codex is balanced and nothing is over the top, its discarded as dull, boring, mediocre and so/so.
Not really, dull and boring and balanced are two different things.

Shipmonkey
24-05-2014, 19:24
Necrons -> Ghost Ark, Scarabs


You are aware that Scarabs are not a separate kit? They are included as bits on the Warriors sprue.

infamousme
26-05-2014, 03:01
I buy the dark eldar battleforce (note i said "i buy" as in i buy them, three so far and planning on more in the future) because it gives me my warriors, a ride for them and more jetbikes. The fact that i get a FREE unit of wyches that i won't use that much is just a bonus. If I'm going to buy the models anyway, why not get the free wyches?

Edit: or maybe the wyches aren't free and the jetbikes are just discounted to the price that they should be for 3 of them :D

Sent from my LG-L38C using Tapatalk 2

Scribe of Khorne
26-05-2014, 03:41
Seems every battleforce / big battleforce has one or more models I don't want to touch with a 6-foot pole.

Chaos Marines -> Forgefiend
Necrons -> Ghost Ark, Scarabs
SM (Strikeforce) -> Venerable Dread, Scouts
Eldar -> Vyper, Guardians
Tyranids -> The entire thing is a joke except for Hormagaunts

Exceptions being Tau, Dark Eldar and Orks. Don't know or care about all the little SM chapters, GK or anything not mentioned


Why can't we have nice things?

Forgefiend is also Maulerfiend. Those are not terrible.

Inquisitor Shego
26-05-2014, 05:12
I buy the dark eldar battleforce (note i said "i buy" as in i buy them, three so far and planning on more in the future) because it gives me my warriors, a ride for them and more jetbikes. The fact that i get a FREE unit of wyches that i won't use that much is just a bonus. If I'm going to buy the models anyway, why not get the free wyches?

Edit: or maybe the wyches aren't free and the jetbikes are just discounted to the price that they should be for 3 of them :D

Sent from my LG-L38C using Tapatalk 2

I agree with the OP that many of the dealbreaker units put me off. It's the reason I haven't purchased the Chaos Space Marine army bundle. However, the Dark Eldar box is a thing of beauty. Aside from the fact all the units are great:

1 x fast transport with awesome gun
1 x squad of great troops
1 x fast attack unit great for contesting + swooping attacks
1 x poor close combat unit that can wreck stuff with haywire

you also get the fact almost all the bits are interchangeable. You can use almost all the wych heads, the agonisers, blasters, swords, and pistols on dark eldar warriors. Goodwin did an amazing turn for the DE in that just like Space Marines, when you buy a box of marines, you have bits to use on everything else in your army.