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DeathlessDraich
23-05-2014, 21:24
This is a little long so I've split it up into 3 posts.
2nd Post and 3rd will contain the specific rules generated from the Main principles below.

Feel free to comment and if this is successfully and sensibly debated - it might be the start of an alternative rulebook.:)

My approach is first to identify important principles and background (or to use that horrible term - fluff), form an overall picture (in italics) and then go into specifics. Changes must be minimal.

Overall Picture & Main principles

1) When a unit charges, a failed charge (i.e. no contact) can only occur because of a lack of resolve and not because the target unit's distance is too far away. A general on the battlefield will know whether each unit can or cannot reach its intended target i.e. a charge declaration is made with the full knowledge of the charge distance needed i.e. Charge distance should not have a chance element.
Lack of resolve should be overcome if there is sufficient discipline or strong Leadership. A Command group and not just Field Officers(characters) could improve Leadership.

2) It should be harder to charge uphill and through some terrain.

3) No ‘charge contact’ or a modified contact is made as a result of 2 circumstances
- If the target unit flees fast and far enough.
- When the target unit is very far away, contact should still be made but the target unit should be able to prepare itself for the charge. This is reflected in extra options for the target unit when charged from a long distance.

4) The charging unit will also tire after a long charge and should lose some bonuses.

5) For Caught and Overrun etc, A fleeing unit of a 100 models cannot be destroyed by a charging/pursuing unit of 1 weak model.

DeathlessDraich
23-05-2014, 21:25
Rules

1) Same sequence - A) Charge declaration B) Charge Response C) Compulsory Moves D) Move Chargers E) Remaining Moves

A)
i) Charge Modifiers (new rule):
+3 for light armoured (light armour only) or no armour infantry (includes all infantry on 2 or 2.5cm bases)
+2 or +3 for other (e.g. Heavy armour) infantry (D6 roll of 1-3 = 2 and 4-6 =3);
+3 for Fast cavalry;
+1 or +2 for all other cavalry; (D6 roll)
0 for all units with bases larger than standard cavalry

Army specific rule – Dwarfs Resolute (or Relentless) rule gives them a +3 Modifier always

ii) Changes to charge declaration rules (M= Movement stat)
- the conditions needed are LOS and a measured distance from declarer to charge unit of no more than (2M + Modifier) (rolled once for all units of the same category just before the phase). This is also the charge distance.
- A unit that does not have a Character, Musician or Standard bearer or both has its charge distance reduced by the Modifier i.e Charge distance =( 2M – Modifier) , calculated the same way.
- The charge distance is also (2M – Modifier) in and out of woods, ruins and other similar terrain and uphill unless the unit has the Strider or similar rules.

DeathlessDraich
23-05-2014, 21:26
B) Charge responses
i) If the charge distance is equal to or less than M value + Modifier of charging unit:
2 responses
- Hold (Charged unit loses all 1st round of combat bonuses including ASF, Fighting in extra ranks, Choppas etc) or
- Flee (see below).

ii) If the charge distance is between M+Modifier and 2M+Modifier, Response options are:
- Flee and Regroup (see below)
- Stand and Shoot;
- Hold (has all 1st round of combat bonuses)

iii) Flee - Same rules as present - 2D6/3D6 etc distance ; fleeing through other units, terrain and Feigned Flight etc.

iv) Caught - A unit that is Caught (i.e. Flee distance does not take it beyond the charge distance) by the charging unit
- still fights during the combat round as if it is rear charged.
- It loses all 1st turn bonuses including ASF, loses its Standard bearer and rank bonuses.
- Its WS stat is reduced (by 50%?) and S stat by (-2) for all subsequent rounds of combat

v) Flee and Regroup
- If the flee distance is large enough to exceed a charge distance of between (M+Modifier) to (2M+Modifier), the fleeing unit automatically rallies.
- The charging unit's charge fails if it cannot make contact with the charged unit.

D) The Failed charge distance is always = M value. Other Failed charge rules remain the same – cannot shoot ,cast magic etc etc

HurrDurr
23-05-2014, 22:07
I think I'd like to go into a coma now from all the maths








On point, why do people try to link so many things to armor? There was a thread a while back about changing armor to leather mail and plate with complicated stat changes and weapon types had to be given blunt or pierce damage etc. It's just too much complication, these look like suggestions for a new game to be built up on rather than to add to warhammer. For example, giving light armor +3 to charge would benefits units differently, some deserving of the change others not, it also brings back the 1/2" dance to get in range, but now with hills to calculate. These changes also neglect ogres who's base sizes seem to be listed as oversized for charge bonuses, it nerfs MSU who don't buy command models. It can also bring some funky charge shenanigans where you place 2 small units between yourself and your target forcing your opponent to charge and overrun into the second smaller unit bringing it within close range for charges to negate ASF/etc, but that rule itself is inherently flawed as not every unit has it's capabilities tied into a special rule, so elves lose ASF but knights and chaos keep their armor save because those aren't special rules, spears and XHW suffer more than greatweapon troops or troops with lots of attacks on their profile. It just changes too much for the sake of change and not innovation.

bigbiggles
23-05-2014, 23:12
So you want longer and more reliable charges....

So now we can have the 1\2 inch dance from 7th but at 20" instead of 13". I don't like that idea

moonlapse
23-05-2014, 23:16
Problem is, charging in 9th edition is likely to be something akin to:

'Players can opt to use the normal charging rules. If they do, they get a small charge bonus or psychology perk. However, they may opt to simply have any of their units charge any of the opponents units automatically on any turn. This gives players the freedom to charge when and where they want every time, but also rewards them if they do stick to the regular charge rules'.

Odin
23-05-2014, 23:30
I think I'd like to go into a coma now from all the maths








On point, why do people try to link so many things to armor? There was a thread a while back about changing armor to leather mail and plate with complicated stat changes and weapon types had to be given blunt or pierce damage etc. It's just too much complication, these look like suggestions for a new game to be built up on rather than to add to warhammer. For example, giving light armor +3 to charge would benefits units differently, some deserving of the change others not, it also brings back the 1/2" dance to get in range, but now with hills to calculate. These changes also neglect ogres who's base sizes seem to be listed as oversized for charge bonuses, it nerfs MSU who don't buy command models. It can also bring some funky charge shenanigans where you place 2 small units between yourself and your target forcing your opponent to charge and overrun into the second smaller unit bringing it within close range for charges to negate ASF/etc, but that rule itself is inherently flawed as not every unit has it's capabilities tied into a special rule, so elves lose ASF but knights and chaos keep their armor save because those aren't special rules, spears and XHW suffer more than greatweapon troops or troops with lots of attacks on their profile. It just changes too much for the sake of change and not innovation.

Yeah, that sort of detail would be hood for Mordheim or Warhammer Quest I think. But not Warhammer.

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SuperHappyTime
24-05-2014, 00:05
Peter, we've been over this. In order for there to be a 10th Edition, there has to be a 9th Edition first.