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shredshredxx
23-05-2014, 21:28
I'm just getting back into the Hammer after a few years away. When I last left, 8th edition was just about to drop, Daemons were horrifically overpowered, hydra-heavy Dark elves and magic-focused VC were close behind.

I'm trying to acclimate myself to the current meta once again, and I'd love some pointers on what I ought to be especially wary of.

I'm hearing a lot of talk about the unkillable Nurgle Daemon Prince, what's it's deal, and how do I kill it?

And most of all, what are some of the most abused and cheesy lists you're seeing in your current meta, and how do you go about laying them low?

Mozzamanx
23-05-2014, 21:36
The 'Unkillable' Daemon Prince isn't the hardest thing to guess; it is a Prince geared up to be nearly immortal.
T5, 1+/5++ with 4 Wounds. WS9 and -1 to hit in close combat means that the vast majority of units are hitting on 6's while most characters are on 5's. Unbreakable, immune to Thunderstomps, has a 2++ against Flaming and discards the first hit against it (cannons!) on a 2+. As the final cherry, every time it kills an opponent in close combat, roll a D6; on a 6, it regains a Wound.
There is nearly nothing in the game that pumps out damage quicker than it regenerates once it hits combat and so it is close to immortal. There is no way to break it, redirection is limited by being able to fly and it still pumps out damage like you'd expect a WS9, S6, A5 thunderstomper to do.
Your only real chance against it is to take it with cannons, direct-hit stone throwers or bolt thowers. Even then you'll need to drop the shield first and make sure you aren't using flaming, and still do enough wounds to drop it before it reaches combat. A lot of armies simply don't have the tools needed to deal with it.

Other fan favourites include the Banner of the World Dragon for High Elves, which gives a 2+ ward save against all magic damage, magic attacks, magic weapons and miscast results. Similarly massed cannons are just as infuriating to fight as they've ever been.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
23-05-2014, 22:18
Really depends what army you're playing. Every army has tools against the demon prince, and the number of times you'll face the list make you damned well find them.

My two armies are Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts. TK have banishment, light of death, spirit leech, and...failing all of that...perpetual challenge-tanking with skeleton champions. Not a pretty strategy, but effective: kill him at range, or hold him up and take on the rest.

Vampire Counts have more options. Tag him with your vampire, then scream at him with your terrorgheists. Vampire hits first so should be able to sneak the last couple wounds through, assuming your 'gheist doesn't kill him outright (he's only got what...4 wounds after all). Barring that you can use death magic, or other types of screams, or the old'fashioned tank him with skeleton champions.

Honestly it's the unkillable BSB who's the real issue. 4++ that becomes a 3++ with Mark of Tzeentch, and the power Third Eye of Tzeentch to reroll any 1s. So it's effectively a 2++ save against everything, ontop of a 1+ save against shooting (or 3+ in combat with his S7 GW). He's a nightmare to deal with, so I just tank him with skeletons. Horse usually kills the champ before the GW gets to go, and I hope he breaks and runs from SCR.

shredshredxx
24-05-2014, 01:55
My main list is Blood Dragon themed VC with combat characters, Black and Blood Knights, a fat block of grave guard, and lots of decently sized skeleton blocks for anvils. No banshees, no shooting, minimal magic, etc. Just lots of murder in CC via characters and knights, and lots of static CR with rank and file. I hope I can hang.

Brother Fenix
24-05-2014, 02:23
The 'Unkillable' Daemon Prince isn't the hardest thing to guess; it is a Prince geared up to be nearly immortal.
T5, 1+/5++ with 4 Wounds. WS9 and -1 to hit in close combat means that the vast majority of units are hitting on 6's while most characters are on 5's. Unbreakable, immune to Thunderstomps, has a 2++ against Flaming and discards the first hit against it (cannons!) on a 2+. As the final cherry, every time it kills an opponent in close combat, roll a D6; on a 6, it regains a Wound.
There is nearly nothing in the game that pumps out damage quicker than it regenerates once it hits combat and so it is close to immortal. There is no way to break it, redirection is limited by being able to fly and it still pumps out damage like you'd expect a WS9, S6, A5 thunderstomper to do.

You forgot that after casting a Nurgle spell on a 6, he get a +1 W and +1 T for the rest of the game.


Your only real chance against it is to take it with cannons, direct-hit stone throwers or bolt thowers. Even then you'll need to drop the shield first and make sure you aren't using flaming, and still do enough wounds to drop it before it reaches combat. A lot of armies simply don't have the tools needed to deal with it.

Or a Shadowdancer with a potion of Strength, and the right combination of spells (Savage Beast of Horros and Melkoths Miasma to lower its WS to 7) ASF 8 Attacks with re-rolls hitting on 4's at S 10. The stars would need to align though and you would have to one round him.

Drachen_Jager
24-05-2014, 02:47
Don't forget the even more unkillable Tzeentch lord build.

1+ 3++ with re-rollable ward save.

Personally I think that's harder to kill than the Nurgle DP, but I suppose he has the disadvantage of being breakable through combat res.

Sexiest_hero
24-05-2014, 03:48
Of note that the Nurgal DP can be hit pretty hard with high str direct damage spells, impact hits and Auto hit spells. Je is nothing compared to the old unkillable dread lord. He's a HUGE pain to deal with and way OP but he can be dealt with. Now the Unkillable tzzentch lord. Sigh, was should be such a fun army to play against....

MOMUS
24-05-2014, 12:37
The current trend in competitive games (EU) is towards heavy armour, so lots of knights/MC. Death magic is still pretty popular. Wall of nurgle daemons and WoC with the mentioned DP.

Brother Fenix
24-05-2014, 19:22
Thing about the Daemon Prince is, if you do kill it, wether with magic, a cannon or Bards black arrow. In a 2k game that removes 25% of his army and probably all of his magic. I agree that Tzeentch lord is worse for that very reason. Still just as tough, but less points.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Doommasters
24-05-2014, 22:19
Chaos lord
Mot
Talisman of preservation
Crown of command
Charmed shield
Soul feeder
Third eye of T
Great weapon
Disk

The most fighty near unkillable unit in the game, but he can't cast spells which is why he does not see much gameplay.

1+\3+ re-roll ward saves of a 1
5 s7 attacks
Gains wounds back on a 6 for every wound caused
Ignore first attack
Fly
Stubborn ld9

Basically you just ignore him and if possible through a unit with lots of ranks into him. For all that strength he is a waste of points because you miss out on that all important lvl4

Josfer
25-05-2014, 05:54
without the great weapon, you could get a vanilla lvl 4 in 2500. On the other hand, your setup has only 2+ against shooting and 3+ in cc, so I`d give him scaled skin too for 1+/3++rr1 all the time.

MOMUS
25-05-2014, 17:15
...Ignore first attack...



The he reason most people give their fighty characters the charmed shield is to dodge a cannon ball on the way into combat not to ignore combat attacks

EvanM
26-05-2014, 05:44
you wanted to know about broken lists that are floating around. each army has one, as I see it. as for your army, it sounds good except you will want to get some of the new VC toys like the flying monsters and stuff and as VC you NEED magic, not so much doing damage but resurrecting people is amazing.

-beastmen have a hard time doing anything
-daemons: not as OP as before, pretty much its just the all-nurgle list with the 600 pt character that can wreck your day.
-Warriors: they can legally take an army of just chariots, monsters, and a daemon prince (total of like 8 models at 2500 pts) which just sucks.
-empire: all cav, demigryphs, steam tanks because our infantry cant measure up at the pts cost
-high elves: phoenixes, super killy characters, hordes of phoenix guard or white lions, and eagles to redirect you
-dark elves: tons of fast cavalry, hydras, and nasty infantry
-wood elves: now in 8th they are much more of a viable force, having tons of magic arrows flying at you
-dwarves: hammerer unit, longbeard unit, lots of warmachines, 4 or 5 gyrocopters and a tank of a general
-orcs and goblins: huge army of 3 hordes, usually savage orcs, black orcs and gobbos with fanatics. Lots of characters and wizards
-ogre kingdoms: huge irongut or bull unit of 18 men, horde formation with 3 characters. monsters, leadbelchers etc
-skaven: lots of bells, huge hordes of stormvermin/plague monks and then just a rediculous amount of skaven slaves. HELL PIT ABOMINATIONS! omg

i think thats it for the netlists anyway

jester006
26-05-2014, 05:56
now this will only work 1 out of 3 times; but when it does its funny as hell. Sivejir's Hex Scroll. let the nurgle deamon cast a spell that isn't really bad while its in combat. use the scroll and if he rolls a 5 or 6, he now becomes a toad with all his characteristics (except wounds) lowered to 1. yeah it still has its 5+ WS, but with the number of hits it'll be taking at T1 it'll go down.

granted, its not guaranteed, but if it works it's almost an assured kill.

EvanM
26-05-2014, 16:34
if it could be tried more than one time itd be amazing, but the thing is that its once use only (right?) and only effective 1/3 of the time.

jester006
26-05-2014, 17:22
if it could be tried more than one time itd be amazing, but the thing is that its once use only (right?) and only effective 1/3 of the time.

yeah, but if you play an army that has no easy access to things that can kill the Nurgle Daemon Prince (Orcs and Goblins come to mind), the scroll is one possible counter to it. Not guaranteed the scroll will work, but very few things are.

FatTrucker
27-05-2014, 10:32
Skaven can use a Warlord with the Fellblade. If he gets to attack its 4 Strength 10 attacks, re-roll any successful ward saves and each successful wound multiplies to D6 wounds.

Yowzo
27-05-2014, 11:33
yeah, but if you play an army that has no easy access to things that can kill the Nurgle Daemon Prince (Orcs and Goblins come to mind), the scroll is one possible counter to it. Not guaranteed the scroll will work, but very few things are.

Orcs and goblins have one of the best counters: doom divers.

Adjustment means a very likely chance of a hit, D6 hits means one hit has a good chance of popping charmed shield and still do some damage, and ignores armour. One some thread on the subject someone mathhammered that it would take about 2 DD hits to pop a Nurgle DP.

And if it doesn't work: trolls. Puke doesn't care about mark of nurgle, and also ignores AS.

Banville
27-05-2014, 11:51
Would Van Horstman's Speculum work?

Yowzo
27-05-2014, 12:04
Sure, but you would still be thunderstomped if on foot (S4, but still wounds you on 5s).

Drachen_Jager
27-05-2014, 18:08
Empire Captain would have 5 attacks, hitting on 5s, wounding on 2s, AS on 4+, WS on 5+. = .46 wounds on average.


Nurgle DP has 3 attacks back, + thunderstomp, + fire breathing (probably) = Crispy fried Captain. He'd have to be incredibly lucky to survive one round of combat.

Ramius4
27-05-2014, 18:18
Nurgle DP has 3 attacks back, + thunderstomp, + fire breathing (probably) = Crispy fried Captain. He'd have to be incredibly lucky to survive one round of combat.

Put the Captain on a Pegasus. No Thunderstomp, and an extra Wound. It's extremely easy to get the Captain a 1+ armor save as well, just by adding an enchanted shield.

I could see doing that. It wouldn't be about killing the DP. Just holding him in place.

Drachen_Jager
27-05-2014, 21:25
Put the Captain on a Pegasus. No Thunderstomp, and an extra Wound. It's extremely easy to get the Captain a 1+ armor save as well, just by adding an enchanted shield.

I could see doing that. It wouldn't be about killing the DP. Just holding him in place.

At that point you're just list tailoring though. Empire takes captains with VHS and enchanted shield fairly often, I'll give you that, but usually (in my experience) he's in an infantry unit to bolster them.

On the pegasus he'd be dead against most armies in no time. Even against WoC he'd be magic missiled before he got to the demon prince as often as not.

MOMUS
27-05-2014, 23:02
Played a friendly and killed a DP yesterday, massed javelins and finished off by chameleon skinks.

Captain Collius
28-05-2014, 01:45
Played a friendly and killed a DP yesterday, massed javelins and finished off by chameleon skinks.

Skinks fix everything every time.

Hell i've seen 10 skinks kill an unkillable disk bsb in one round of shooting. (Results will vary.)

Yowzo
28-05-2014, 07:09
At that point you're just list tailoring though. Empire takes captains with VHS and enchanted shield fairly often, I'll give you that, but usually (in my experience) he's in an infantry unit to bolster them.

Plenty of empire lists with an archlector on barded horse with VHS and other gear.

dalezzz
28-05-2014, 16:51
Play using monstrous arcanum and drop something with " largest of monsters" ( or whatever that rule is) and stomp him into oblivion :)