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Jind_Singh
24-05-2014, 09:45
Hello all,

From the thread in rumors it's apparent that poor old Warhammer Forge has died a slow and lingering death - which is a real shame as I had high hopes for this franchise!

So I wanted to start a discussion with my fellow Warhammer fans to see what they think could have been differently to have grown this new part of our hobby into something that was lucrative enough to keep going!

Forgeworld

We all know them, we all (or most of us) have a model(s) that we'd LOVE to own for our own use. Forgeworld is now pretty much devoted f/t to the Horus Heresy and have done some AMAZING works to bring that beloved series to life - but even before the HH the range was a success based on:

1) Extreme versatility of the kits - there were units available to be used by pretty much any faction
2) Space Marines - love them or hate them, they are the ultimate product cherished by a large collector base. Based on this alone the potential for sales is mind boggling, and the freedom to add units to the official GW books, via FW books, is pretty much uncapped. The lore behind Space Marines is such that with 18 Legions to base an army off, and not to mention the successor chapters, there is a huge market.
3) Longevity - with 8 marks of Power Armor there was a look that fitted so many players, and got them excited to collect
4) Apocalypse - a very successful expansion for GW that saw rise to epic war machines such as Titans, Super Heavy tanks, fliers, and monsters
5) Customization - with so many great kits to add spice to your 40k collection the sky is the limit for those collectors willing to pay a few more dollars for a truly unique army

But then came Warhammer Forge and along with it some odd decisions!

1) Storm of Magic - now I, personally, think that this is one of the most brilliant and successful releases for Warhammer - period. I love the gameplay,I love the freedom to collect monsters, and it's just an epic, epic game - so much so I invested heavily over the years (at last count my monster collection had hit around 5,000 points along with fulcrums and a wizards tower). BUT sadly I'm one of a small group of players who play this game of Warhammer.

So let's base an entire business around selling models to a small base of players out of Warhammer - and from this small group an even SMALLER group is going to invest money and time into getting FW units. I only ended up getting the 2 books, a Cursed E'tin, and a Magma Dragon - and I'm dedicated to this expansion!

2) Lack lustre models - quite simply the artwork for units was GORGEOUS (monstrous arcanum), and yet very models lived up to the standards. Dread Saurian - so epic looking, yet looks like a skinned and partially scaly rat!

3) Chaos Dwarfs - much anticipated yet what a POOR release! The most useful options for the units are not available - Centaurs need great weapons but get h/w and shield! Infantry without great weapons is criminal! Only one of the 2 missile troops made - again a wasted effort here. And then the big beastie that everyone wanted wasn't available off the bat - or even to this day!

4) Long release period - look at the HH, book comes out WITH units to support it! Sure it's making a lot more case but common sense would have seen better management of Warhamer Forge to have made it a viable business model.


So that comes down to....

What would you have liked to see from Warhammer Forge - that would have kept it strong and alive to this day!

Looking forwards to hearing your thoughts!

stashman
24-05-2014, 09:52
More konversion kits to units:
Bows for orcs, handweapon for goblins, ranger style for dwarfs etc.
(can be midcost product)

Shouldn't have made all "strange" creatures we don't use to have in warhammer!!! Would be more economic to create monsters that are still missed in GW range!!!

snyggejygge
24-05-2014, 10:04
While I love what warhammer forge did release (bought myself Fimir, a Preyton & a Warpfire Dragon), I do Think that they should have concentrated on stuff that people will actually use in their normal games of warhammer, conversion kits, characters, cooler versions of monsters etc etc instead of trying to do a whole new thing which people are very reluctant to use in "official" games.

Mozzamanx
24-05-2014, 10:04
Honestly, making Monstrous Arcanum an add-on to the core game instead of Storm of Magic would have made all the difference in the world to me. I'd field an Incarante Elemental with my Beastmen today, if I didn't have to play Storm. I'd start a Tomb King army purely to use that Titan, if I didn't have to play Storm.
Making it an add-on to an add-on is just dropping your potential playerbase to almost nothing. The monsters aren't overwhelmingly powerful (or at least any worse than those available in the core books) and those that tread into 'gargantuan' territory could be limited to the Storm, but most of the monsters are appropriate for regular games. As it is I have no desire to shell out for a kit which is only 'legal' in very specific scenarios and I don't fancy asking a TO to accommadate my specific requests if I wanted to take it to a tourney.

Also the Chaos Dwarfs had so much promise but were missing critical kits. Just imagine how many Destroyers they would have sold if there was an official model...

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2014, 10:07
I just recently reassessed the Dread Saurian.

It is a horrible, horrible model, but I'm a Lizardmen player so I'm still tempted to get this beast for my army. So I checked the facts again...

- It's breathtakingly expensive. I can hardly justify to buy anything in this price range on a whim, let alone such a supreme dust collector.

- It doesn't even seem that much bigger than a Carnosaur, of which I could get 3 for that price.

- Even if I want to buy it, in order to use it I need the book. That's basically a 20% price increase just to be able to use it (like an upgrade or something).

- Then, when they send it, they slap on an additional 15% shipping cost. Oh no, the shipping cost isn't fix. It's a percentage of your purchase. Meaning the more you buy, the more you are punished for it. Sounds a bit counterintuitive, no? Especially since most webshops I know completely waive shipping cost at a fraction of what the Saurian alone costs.

- So I can shop for 250 pounds and don't have to pay for shipping. That means buying stuff for 100 pounds that I neither want nor need. Hmmm... What could possibly be wrong with that...?

- For the sum I had to drop I could get an entire army, not just one single poorly sculpted resin critter.

Sooo... what is the conclusion I came to? The conclusion is, no. Just no.

So what could be different?

Well. you could have the rules as downloadable pdfs, for example. It's only one problem, and not the worst, but it would help.

Eddie Chaos
24-05-2014, 10:43
I want alternate heads, shields and weapons for all armies. Knightly orders etc

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Urgat
24-05-2014, 10:52
Conversion kits are a given I guess. I'm sure stuff like chaos warrior shields/heads for the 4 gods would be popular enough, for instance.
Terrain? I'm not talking about the ubber cool, ubber big, ubber EXPENSIVE realm of battle board addons here, but small things like the mysterious terrain entries. Totems, shrines, the stuff that we regularly roll for terrain. Small, cheap (relatively-speaking) things.
They really should stick to the style of Warhammer. I really like FW sculpts, but they're too realistic, while GW is clearly going for a somewhat more cartoonish look. You put a cursed ettin next to any of GW's "giants", and the difference of style is obvious. The "rat-saurus" is both not cool like the MA drawings, or over-the-top like the various plastic dinos. it just doesn't belong.
There's the lack of choices for the CD, too. I'm not sure that's a real problem, but it IS annoying. And they could have made hobgoblins, whatever the excuse. They released thousands of different cadians, like hell they can't do hobgobs. We're talking about, what, 5 sculpts sold in packs of 10, plus 3 for command, twice (warriors and wolf riders)? I doubt FW keeps stocks, so merely offering the option to the players cost nothing. Even if they believe they won't sell much, a complete range will be more attractive than a half finished one. What's the reaction of a guy who is not a converter, not fan of ebay, wants to start a CD army and reads that half the choices will never ever be available, because they just decided it would be that way? That's right: he's not starting the army.

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2014, 11:06
The "rat-saurus" is both not cool like the MA drawings, or over-the-top like the various plastic dinos. it just doesn't belong.

And yet it has this stupidly oversized head with the teensy eyes and the steel trap dentition and various random, deformed looking spines jutting out from random parts of its body. If anything it looks like a Chaos T-Rex. Forgeworld style at its best.

Shakkara
24-05-2014, 12:21
I was really hoping for shield sets for high elves and other conversion material such as special heads etc.

New and cool looking horses with decorative cloth and armor would've been appreciated.

Also more character such as command groups, battle standard bearers, cool-looking wizards and heroes, special magic weapon and accessory sprues to slap onto your characters.
Maybe 1-2 new and unique units per army.

baransiege
24-05-2014, 14:04
(1) Never release models that require opponent's permission - this immediately rules out a portion of the consumer base. All the bits in Tamurkhan besides the Chaos Dwarfs were opponent's permission. I thought the Carmine Dragon was absolutely beautiful but because there isn't an option for Empire to use dragons in their book and, like many, my group doesn't allow special characters I didn't go near it.

(2) Don't do Storm of Magic - this immediately rules out a significant portion of the player base, make the rules so that every player can use some of them. There's no reason not to have said Beastman players could take Preytons as Rare choices for example.

(3) Make models look like the concept art. Like it or not awesome concept art sets up an expectation in the reader's mind, if the sculpt can't live up to it the buyers are then let down and sales suffer. Better not to provide any art so that buyer's minds aren't hyped up for what cannot be achieved.

(4) Pose models so that you can easily provide multiple weapon options. Case in point the Bull Centaurs can't really be equipped with great weapons unless you have pretty advanced converting skills. A more well thought out pose before sculpting began would have made it easy to provide weapon packs for the other options. This would have resulted in more people buying the Centaurs and then additional sales though the weapon packs.

(5) Provide the weapon options most people want. Ignoring Hobgoblins (they never would have been feasible), the Chaos Dwarfs have only one Core unit, but with 4 weapon options. Only 2 were made available, these happen to be the two least popular. A quick browse of Dwarf forums would have shown Great Weapon Dwarfs were way, way more popular than Hand Weapon + Shield. This would have taken a grand total of 15 minutes research to discover which way the demand would have swung. Given that they also have Blackshard Armour it's obvious GWs would have been even more appealing. It would have taken far less work to make GWs and Blunderbusses than anything else in the CD range.

I've seen plenty of posts along the following lines:
(1) "I'm waiting to start the army until the usable weapon options come out..." They don't and the potential buyers interests fade.
(2) "FW don't make those weapon options but Companies X and Y do so you should get those units from other companies. And since you are doing that you might as well get all your troops from those guys so that your army all matches up."

They should have come out the gate with all the Core weapon options available OR a clear timeline for when they would come out. As a result a lot of people bought their war machines from FW and their infantry elsewhere. War Machines should have come gradually, later on, as it is much harder for these other companies to compete with FW on those kinds of kits.

I mean GWs could have been made with just a few design alterations to the Fireglaives for heaven's sakes. They would have taken a day or two tops to make.

Verm1s
24-05-2014, 14:15
1. Have a bit of conviction and stick to something instead of huffing and leaving it unfinished.

2. Conversion packs for different knightly orders, empire provinces, CW and DP allegiances... What about dwarf strongholds, skaven clans, DE and Lizardmen cities, HE and WE kingdoms, Bret duchies etc.?

3. Alternate monsters for Warhammer. Not 'apocalypse with magic', not 'a spotter's guide to the fauna of the old world and beyond', not 'let's see what we can crib from dungeons and dragons'; just Warhammer. Some existing models can be used like that anyway, but it could help to have a few elf dragons, wyverns, bastiladons, minotaurs, manticores, thundertusks, pumbaagors, hydras, chaos trolls and rat ogres etc. that don't suck. (pinch Seb Perbett for the latter)

4. Before 3, pack up Trish Carden and a few other WF sculptors and send them off on an extensive animal anatomy/creature design/sculpting course.

5. Alternatively, ignore all that (as they will anyway) and leave some of us to pull a Chapterhouse.


I really like FW sculpts, but they're too realistic

HHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay, I'll give you the ettin, it's pretty good, but man...


If anything it looks like a Chaos T-Rex.

T. rex called from the past. It's suing you for defamation.

;)

Minty
24-05-2014, 16:31
(1) Never release models that require opponent's permission

(2) Don't do Storm of Magic

(3) Make models look like the concept art.

(4) Pose models so that you can easily provide multiple weapon options.

(5) Provide the weapon options most people want.


These are most of the points that I'd have made, and exactly right.

Most people don't play expansions and don't want to have to spend 20 minutes whining for opponent's permission to use whatever retarded gimmick they bought from Forgeworld. Even fewer people want to be asked for permission because there's no right answer. I can either say 'yes, use that thing' and have a less fun game or say 'no, I'd rather you didn't' and be that guy. Why would a company deliberately put their customers in this awkward position?

Note - Chaos Dwarves were an entire army of this! An entire 'opponent's permission' army was a galacticly bad move. (Oh, and printing 'this is an official army' in the book doesn't make it so...)


On the other hand, everyone loves cool models!

Make upgrade kits, make alternate models of existing units, make weapon options. Make spell effects and effect markers!

The community isn't exactly silent about what we'd like. I think every Beastman player would have baught some alternate-version Razorgors.

It didn't have to stop there, it doesn't just have to be alternate version. Provided the base size matches and the general bulk of the model matches, make counts-as stuff.

Make an Empire counts-as Great Cannon styled like the thing on top of the Luminark. Make a Skaven Clan Skryer-themed mechanical contraption that counts-as a A-bomb. Make an entire rock-golem army that counts-as Ogres. Sky's the limit.

Cool models that can be used in any game with no permission needed.

Make mounted characters, (and mounts for characters) for god's sake! Most armies have mount options for their characters that are and will never be supported by official models. Kit-bashing is fine, but if Warhammer Forge had made, for example, a Captesus model (with an Empire Peg, not a Bretonnian one with the symbols shaved off) it would have flown off the shelves on its own.

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2014, 16:51
Why would a company deliberately put their customers in this awkward position?

Because, you know, gamers are mature people who will settle such causes in a sportsmenlike manner. Ha-ha! Maybe this works in the UK, however. I just have to imagine two posh British gentlemen engaging in their daily 6 o'clock match of Warhammer, right after tea time. If asked politely, who would deny their esteemed opponent the use of their fine new plaything? If in doubt, settle it like real men of honor: tomorrow at dawn, twelve steps, one bullet.

Well, most people used to allow their opponents the use of Chaos Dwarves out of pity, but that ship has sailed when the K'Daai Destroyer reared ist ugly head.

Urgat
24-05-2014, 17:12
In their style I mean. I don't really care about your delusions of realism on imaginary creatures. FW models clearly try to look more realistic than the more cartoon designs from GW's studio, is what I mean, and don't plan on arguing with you.

Sexiest_hero
24-05-2014, 17:45
There was literally nothing they could have done, other than make a bunch of op stuff. 40k lucks out in that one sm kit can be used bu 80% of it's armies. The only other thing that sells other than SM are broken units. If forge world stopped producing space marine kits they wouldn't last the year. It's why heresy is such a big deal. Warhammer forge had no chance.

Leonathion
24-05-2014, 17:50
I think they should have focused on releasing stuff for the most popular armies, and also kits to enhance the sells of the ones GW makes. Conversion kits, but also unique models such as heroes and some alternate version of monsters already existing (old stuff first perhaps?) (of course, that's stepping on GW turf, but so is selling a bucketload of contemptor dreads that people use in their 40k SM armies).

* Characters for: Empire (done to a degree), OaG (done to a degree), Chaos Warriors
* Conversion parts for said armies (done for Empire, but not enough). Imagine alternative skeleton heads (with fancy helmets), Empire heads with salets or morions.
* Old special characters with rules to play them (Nagash!!! etc) to proxy as new characters.

It would be interesting to see which models have sold the best. I would guess the grave guard banner is in there, as is Orc and Goblin command, and Marius Leitdorf. I think most monsters have not sold that well. Skip the majority of them.

Also I think this again is an issue with the GW playerbase. Warhammer Forge would have had success if Storm of Magic would have been the apocalypse of Fantasy, and if players were interested in playing the game as GW designs it (not as a balanced tournament game).

I love the few WF stuff I own, and I'll be buying some more before I'm satisfied. And I do love the books, they're gorgeous!

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2014, 17:57
Also I think this again is an issue with the GW playerbase. Warhammer Forge would have had success if Storm of Magic would have been the apocalypse of Fantasy, and if players were interested in playing the game as GW designs it (not as a balanced tournament game).

Now now, you can't just put the blame on us here. The law of market economy has it that companies have to produce products that are in demand, not the other way around. Sulkingly sitting in their corner won't do them any good, and neither us. There is a market for fantasy miniatures; it's just not the market Forgeworld is apparently targetting. I'm not going to buy the Dread Saurian just to do them a favor, sorry. Not everyone enjoys Monsterpocalypse as much as these guys.

Sexiest_hero
24-05-2014, 18:44
People didn't even give the apocalypse of fantasy a try. If GW would give people what they want they would end up with grey knights allied with Ogre kingdoms. People like to harp on mat ward, and by people I mean me, but I can't deny that his books sale like hot cakes, because they are usually broken. People want broken, Broken iron blasters broken blender vampires broken daemon princes. Broken things just sale better.If i were forge word I'd make a monster that had a 3+ ward and could be taken in any army without permission and costed 175 points. Yeah the internet would complain but I bet you'd see one in every battle report.If 7th taughtme one thing it's that people care less about anything other than winning that's why we saw so many DE and DoC.

Minty
24-05-2014, 18:45
There is a market for fantasy miniatures; it's just not the market Forgeworld is apparently targetting.

I'm not completely sure that they were targeting a market at all... That implies they were market-focussed - that they produced things they thought would sell.

Now, it's no secret that Forgeworld, at least at the start was a pet project for GW's treadheads. That's why at one point (and to a surprising degree, even today) their product range was just a bazillion different vehicles for the Imperial Guard (and a slightly smaller number of infantry for the Guard).

Then they realised Space Marines are a licence to print money and the rest is history.


Now I bethink myself 'what if Warhammer Forge just really liked monsters'? As in, they never bothered doing the sort of market research that would get you a C- on your Business Studies GCSE, they just like monsters, so let's make monsters. That's pretty much how forgeworld began and it would certainly explain Warhammer Forge's frankly baffling product range and behaviour.

Truth is, if I were a GW shareholder (I'm not, I own shares in a company that makes 3d printers, we'll see how history judges that choice...) I think I'd be pretty pissed-off right now.

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2014, 18:53
If you do what you want for your own pleasure and then complain that people do not like what you do and then stop doing it because of that then that's inconsistent.


People didn't even give the apocalypse of fantasy a try.

I'm leery of anything that even remotely resembles 40k. I don't play 40k and there's a reason. 40k isn't the answer to everything. It should be obvious that Fantasy is a different market. Just like Forgeworld have to learn that not everyone plays exclusively Chaos.

Minty
24-05-2014, 19:05
I don't think they stopped because people weren't buying. My guess would be they stopped because someone in the finance department noticed that it was a money black hole.

Folks are free to do what they like for fun, but not if they do it on the payroll of a publicly traded company.

Again, this is all a guess.

My guess is that after the collosal share-price drop a couple of months back, a lot of hard questions were asked in all departments. I bloody hope those questions were asked. Canning things like Warhammer forge is the exact fall-out one'd expect.

Sexiest_hero
24-05-2014, 19:06
that's marketing one oh one. make something, then make people want it. GW sucks at making people want something. Bad pricing no marketing means bad sales/ they just got really lucky with SM. If not they couold have ended up like TSR.

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2014, 19:10
If not they couold have ended up like TSR.

There's still time for that. Once the 40k market dries up due to players leaving in droves it will be curtains for Space Marines as well.

Voss
24-05-2014, 19:14
Nothing.
I'd rather GW invested more into the main game and armies and less into side projects and supplements, and that includes forgeworld and 'warhammer forge'. Most of the 8th edition armies have been lackluster in one way or another, and had they gotten the support that went to warhammer forge instead, they could have been significantly better.

Unfortunately, the death of Forge won't fix anything, as the resources are likely to just be dumped into more Forgeworld Space Marine projects, as its all they seem to be good for anymore.

Verm1s
24-05-2014, 20:28
In their style I mean. I don't really care about your delusions of realism on imaginary creatures. FW models clearly try to look more realistic than the more cartoon designs from GW's studio, is what I mean, and don't plan on arguing with you.

I take it that was aimed at me. Well, I didn't mean to sound so apparently antagonistic, but in counterpoint, you're already arguing with me, and my delusions of realism on imaginary creatures are informed by the delusions of accomplished and professional imaginary creature designers and artists, which are plainly superior to most of those delusions of realism on imaginary creatures at ForgeWorld. ;) I look at FW's monsters and for the most part, their attempts at realism mostly boil down to cramming as many gratuitous details as they can into every square inch. (people seemed to think it was all the dread saurian needed) Not so great by itself, but worse when so much else - proportion, balance, pose, animation - is off. That's not even getting into the real fussy stuff that I think you mean by 'delusions', like how skin wrinkles IRL, how scales might look and be arranged, or where to position a tricep for best effect, and so on.

The 'cartoonish' label on some newer GW models is a distraction, IMO. It takes skill to construct a good cartoon, just like any other piece of art; and skilfully paring and streamlining some details while exaggerating others can easily look superior to a piece festooned with detail but with unskilled construction and 'character'. Or animation, or life, or what you want to call it. With that even the cartoonish mainstream GW models - skaven, carnosaur, etc. can look more 'realistic' than a lot of WF's output.

Leonathion
24-05-2014, 22:06
- So I can shop for 250 pounds and don't have to pay for shipping. That means buying stuff ...

I can't find this anywhere on their website. Can anyone please link to where it's stated?

Feefait
24-05-2014, 22:06
I think that number one is pricing. If we are paying the same price we want "canon". Warhammer is so odd that so much of the community is against non-official work. I believe availability is tough too. It's not like you can just walk into a store and decide to pick it up, you have to know about it, look for it and then decide to order it (overseas in a lot of cases).

As far as quality of models, I think that mostly they are pretty amazing. Maybe not enough to justify what I mentioned above, but still really good. However, they needed full color photos - not unpainted resin pictures ot sell them.

As a last note I think that many people my age remember the early days of Forgeworld where they made large, expensive and overpowered units. Units that were mostly barely legal (if they could be used at all) and dominated games. They developed a bad stigma for many of us that we just couldn't get over. There are a ton of WF models I kind of want, but not enough to put the effort in to get them.

I want to go out on a limb and start a flame war that this may be indicative of the industry in general. Our group, after playing since roughly 1992 has all but abandoned playing or buying models. Both my WE and LM are sitting without even having the new books, forget models. In that (small) sample size there is no way we are going to go so far as buying WF stuff if we won't purchase GW.

Ultimate Life Form
24-05-2014, 22:37
I can't find this anywhere on their website. Can anyone please link to where it's stated?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Home/Shipping-Charges.html

Urgat
24-05-2014, 22:42
The 'cartoonish' label on some newer GW models is a distraction, IMO. It takes skill to construct a good cartoon, just like any other piece of art; and skilfully paring and streamlining some details while exaggerating others can easily look superior to a piece festooned with detail but with unskilled construction and 'character'. Or animation, or life, or what you want to call it. With that even the cartoonish mainstream GW models - skaven, carnosaur, etc. can look more 'realistic' than a lot of WF's output.

We are certainly in agreement there, I didn't want to use the term cartoon in a derogatory way. My opinion is that FW should try and stick to that style, since it's now definitively GW's main studio style. regardless of the quality of the sculpt or the accuracy of the anatomy of the model, what I believe is that when you take a FW and a GW model, and put them side by side, they don't seem to belong to the same line. That's my main problem with FW's sculpts.
Sorry if I sounded antagonistic too, it wasn't my goal, we both know we don't have the same opinion regarding the way to sculpt monsters, I just didn't want us to start another pointless argument about unreconcialable (sp?) tastes.

Doommasters
25-05-2014, 00:48
Limited ways you can use the models;

Either they make models GW does not have for popular units or make it so the models they do have can be used in everyday battles (i.e. conversions, alternative more detailed models etc)

Evil Hypnotist
25-05-2014, 06:21
I got the impression that after the release of Storm of Magic people found the Bound creatures the best thing about it, which is why they pushed the Monsterous Arcanum book and models. Unfortunately most people will only buy one or two of them, and only then if they want to play to these rule sets in friendly games. Conversion kits was the way to go, just like they are doing with HH now. I had dreams of Nurgle Chaos Warrior parts when Tamurkhan came out.

Sexiest_hero
25-05-2014, 20:40
I still think had they let people take bound scrolls as a rare choice, let people get the broken one, toned that down and let people go down to the next broken one they would be selling pretty modestly.

Oswen
25-05-2014, 20:57
I'd have loved to get models from FW for mounts and characters which are in the current army books without an available model (hellsteeds, non-morathi black pegasus etc).
Useful conversion kits would have been great, like something to turn VC skeletons/GG into TK ones, a finished Chaos dwarfs line would have been great too.

MOMUS
25-05-2014, 21:06
A lot of the models from warhammer forge are absolutely beautiful, the warp fire dragon is a personal favourite. I also bought a chaos dwarf army and the models are top notch.

endless
25-05-2014, 23:02
There is a lot I could say, and if I get time I probably will, but for now, warbands. There is a massive gap in what GW currently offer for fantasy and a well constructed skirmish campaign system would cover many bases while being something FW have shown they could do relatively easily. Realm of Chaos or Mordheim in a high quality, small number set of miniatures? Sold.

Ramius4
26-05-2014, 00:10
There is a lot I could say, and if I get time I probably will, but for now, warbands. There is a massive gap in what GW currently offer for fantasy and a well constructed skirmish campaign system would cover many bases while being something FW have shown they could do relatively easily. Realm of Chaos or Mordheim in a high quality, small number set of miniatures? Sold.

That has the exact same problem all the specialist games skirmish systems did. VERY limited residual business. Those games are not like the main game systems where people are constantly updating armies with new kits. Once you buy your team, or squad, or whatever, you're not spending additional money to support the company. In short, they're not financially viable for a company to produce over the long term.

Prices are already driving many people away from buying GW products. Forgeworld stuff is even more expensive. I honestly don't see how anything other than Space Marines (which have a MASSIVE following) would ever be worth the investment for them. Especially Warhammer Fantasy, which isn't as big of a game as 40K.

They gave it a try. It failed because it's not profitable. End of story.

Sexiest_hero
26-05-2014, 00:22
Ramius is Right-ius...that sounded better in my head. Still his point stands.

BorderKing
26-05-2014, 00:51
They should have made the key selling point being that they are selling an official DOW and CD army. Then GW should allow SOM and MA creatures to count as rare choices in any army and then made campaign books focusing on the empire and expanding on provinces while battling a certain foe so you could sell the count to that province as well as special units, and a named character from another army with special units for that army. In between these books they should sell upgrade packs for various armies. They did Wissenland and never released the count to that province even though half the first book is about her and that would of sold really well, that alone made me confused about forgeworld's plans.

Verm1s
26-05-2014, 12:46
Warhammer and so much of it's community is so odd

Fixed that for you, a bit.


They gave it a try. It failed because it's not profitable. End of story.

Funny how some non-GW skirmish games sell minis like hot cakes, then. I know a few guys meself, with so many Malifaux crews they could almost field small armies against each other.

It's not that they're not profitable, or so wiser business heads than mine have said, but that they're not as profitable as a big apocalypse army of spays mureens. Which is GW's prerogative, but it seems a bit joyless and an unfair comparison all the same.

But we might see which is doing better a few years from now. Maybe even next year when 40K 8th ed hits. :p ;)

Nagash333
26-05-2014, 13:22
I would have loved to of seen Time of Legends characters e.g. Nagash, Sigmar, Aenarion, Caledor, Abhorash etc. If at the same quality as 40k primarchs they would be very popular imho

Ramius4
26-05-2014, 13:52
They should have made the key selling point being that they are selling an official DOW and CD army. Then GW should allow SOM and MA creatures to count as rare choices in any army and then made campaign books focusing on the empire and expanding on provinces while battling a certain foe so you could sell the count to that province as well as special units, and a named character from another army with special units for that army. In between these books they should sell upgrade packs for various armies. They did Wissenland and never released the count to that province even though half the first book is about her and that would of sold really well, that alone made me confused about forgeworld's plans.

So, in other words, you'd like to see Forge World used to turn Fantasy into the absolute confusing mess of armies and units that 40K is? Next!


Funny how some non-GW skirmish games sell minis like hot cakes, then. I know a few guys meself, with so many Malifaux crews they could almost field small armies against each other.

Sure, but then Malifaux stuff also costs between 1/2 to 3/4 of what GW stuff does, with Forgeworld being even more expensive than GW. And you need to pay something like 15 to 20% for shipping on top of that. And you can't just walk into a store and buy Forgeworld stuff.

Besides all that, you're missing the point of what I said previously.

Let's take Necromunda for example. For any given gang, you never need to purchase more than 15 to 20 models. Ever. Not ever.

So the market for those type of games has a finite limit on the number of possible sales. It doesn't matter if the players buy several gangs, because there is still a hard limit to the overall sales you can make on any given product.

I never said that Skirmish games aren't profitable. Just that "they're not financially viable for a company to produce over the long term."

Epicene
26-05-2014, 15:57
1 - Upgrade kits. This is largely shown by Horus Heresy itself - I don't see many games of 30k being played, but I see lots of armies using HH models\parts in their armies to add flavor. Just a few kits for each army for an Empire Army of Nuln, Forest Goblins, Chaos Marauders of Khorne ect.

2 - Regiments of Renown. This really seems like a no-brainer to me. A book detailing new mercenary heroes, units, war-machines that can be allied to existing armies or used on its own, all with new sculpts.

3 - Explore warhammer outside the old-world. So many places mentioned in Warhammer have had little to no releases ever (or have had the models go OOP). Araby, Nippon, Cathay, Amazons, Avalon.

Big monsters were not the way to go for Warhammer, in my opinion.

I might like to add they totally fluffed up the Chaos Dwarf release. Lack of Hobgoblins, no updates to old war-machines and totally underwhelming core troop sculpts.

Alltaken
26-05-2014, 16:43
Mordheim could have been a forge world game. Hero quest too.

From my servoskull

Jind_Singh
26-05-2014, 22:58
Yes - I agree with a lot of the last 3 pages...

1) Upgrade kits to be used with normal kits for Warhammer - Shield kits, banners, heads, to allow us freedom to create more customized armies
2) Characters for different races - while GW does an amazing job with their plastic range it would have been nice to see other models come from GW
3) Regiments of renown - this is almost a no-brainer! Make it OFFICAL book so anyone with Warhammer 8th ed can use it. Have units made that come out of peoples rare or special choices and go for it! Didn't even have to be a big book, would have been fantastic!
4) Races not covered by GW such as Araby, Cathy, Ind, the land of Fish - all fantastic options and surefire way to pump up some sales
5) The 2 books released should have allowed those units as part of peoples armies as core/special/rare depending on the unit type - for e.g. it makes sense to allow Idol of Gork/Mork as a rare choice in OnG book while the squig warmachine would have made a solid special choice

I think that alone would have really done the range some wonders - and made it a stable and useful addition to Warhammer rather than the way it was done.

Really a shame - SO MUCH wasted potential - and now I'll never see Blackfire pass book :(

Ultimate Life Form
26-05-2014, 23:05
Really a shame - SO MUCH wasted potential - and now I'll never see Blackfire pass book :(

I haven't really been keeping an eye on that Warhammer Forge venture; has there ever been any information on what they were planning to do in the future?

I think one of the problems with Forge World is that you have to prety much buy the pig in a poke. Actually, I do have the Tamurkhan book. Why do I have it? Because my local GW had one and the Redshirt talked me into buying it. See, their sales strategy sometimes pays off. Now in this case, I had the chance to see the book in the store, and touch it, and feel its heaviness, and I came to the conclusion that even though it was expensive, it might actually be worth the price. I bought it and read it in one go (cost me the entire afternoon). It was a great read. Even though I have neither Chaos nor Empire, I feel I got my money's worth out of it simply for the great Story and artwork.

Then I saw the Monstrous Arcanum on the website one day, and I was like, "meh, just a bunch of big, ugly monsters, boring". I don't have it.

You see, if they made their product a bit more accessible it might just catch on. But the Redshirt explained to me that the Forge World guys are prett elitist and snobbish and don't wish to see their exalted pieces of art in a lowly GW store on a shelf next to a bunch of kiddie toy soldiers. That they got the Tamurkhan book was an absolute exception and he said that there was absolutely no chance they would get other Forge World stuff in the future, not even if I ordered it.

So, that means that Citadel (or GW if you will) and Forge World actually compete against each other instead of complementing themselves. GW affords the luxury of running an extensive retail chain, but instead of making use of this opportunity Forge World chooses to avoid it like the plague and prefers to remain largely anonymous and obscure.

So yeah, sometimes it seems they don't actually want to sell their stuff and rather keep it for themselves.

Odin
27-05-2014, 10:04
If they made god specific add-ons for chaos, and Ostermark shirlds and banners for Empire, I'd have been all over that.

There's still some bits I plan to get, but it's always the shipping that's the problem.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Minty
27-05-2014, 10:39
3) Regiments of renown - this is almost a no-brainer! Make it OFFICAL book so anyone with Warhammer 8th ed can use it. Have units made that come out of peoples rare or special choices and go for it! Didn't even have to be a big book, would have been fantastic!

5) The 2 books released should have allowed those units as part of peoples armies as core/special/rare depending on the unit type - for e.g. it makes sense to allow Idol of Gork/Mork as a rare choice in OnG book while the squig warmachine would have made a solid special choice:(

No. Really no, this would not have saved Warhammer Forge.

What Forgeworld (And WF) has never seemed to grok is that writing 'this r offishul' on their books in crayon doesn't actually make them so. It's still opponent's permission just like any other fandex (yes, fandex. Forgeworld/WF books are lavishly produced fandexes).

What this means is that almost no-one will buy their stuff because almost no-one else wants to play with it. Regiments of Renown, optional units and new armies would have flopped because, no matter how 'official' they claim to be, people don't and won't want them in normal games.

baransiege
27-05-2014, 11:02
No. Really no, this would not have saved Warhammer Forge.

What Forgeworld (And WF) has never seemed to grok is that writing 'this r offishul' on their books in crayon doesn't actually make them so. It's still opponent's permission just like any other fandex (yes, fandex. Forgeworld/WF books are lavishly produced fandexes).

What this means is that almost no-one will buy their stuff because almost no-one else wants to play with it. Regiments of Renown, optional units and new armies would have flopped because, no matter how 'official' they claim to be, people don't and won't want them in normal games.

No. Really no. If a GW marked product says it's official, it's official. You have no factual basis to outright say Jind's ideas are bad. I'd wager the official Chaos Dwarfs probably sold a lot more kits than the unofficial Empire that they produced.

Banville
27-05-2014, 11:11
I'll fourth or fifth the Regiments of Renown idea. This would have been a fantastic book and if the units had been nicely done it would have sold like hot cakes. A regiment or two for each of the factions would have been optimal to allow you to actually keep your army coherent instead of the ridiculous mess that 40K has become.

And I thought the "official" status of FW lists and units was finally, at last, and irrevocably put to bed a few months ago. Maybe that was solely regarding 40k, though.......

Metacarpi
27-05-2014, 11:42
And I thought the "official" status of FW lists and units was finally, at last, and irrevocably put to bed a few months ago. Maybe that was solely regarding 40k, though.......

Nope, you're absolutely correct. GW official tournaments sanction Forgeworld items now (usually out of an armies Special allowance).

That's why the idea that the stuff in Monstrous Arcanum isn't "official" has really been put to bed.

It's official, end of. Obviously your opponent reserves the right to refuse you a game, but unless you're going really balls to the wall with your choices (or playing a HUGE game, because the more powerful units are really, REALLY expensive, points wise), I don't see why they would.

HelloKitty
27-05-2014, 13:52
It doesn't understand how Forgeworld is considereda fandex and is not official. Is it just that it doesnt want it to be official so that it can say it doesnt want to play against it?

Metacarpi
27-05-2014, 14:11
It doesn't understand how Forgeworld is considereda fandex and is not official. Is it just that it doesnt want it to be official so that it can say it doesnt want to play against it?


Oh sweet, we have a member of the Hanar race here on Warseer! :)

HelloKitty
27-05-2014, 16:49
It is not sure what a Hanar race is. Is it a filthy creature?

Verm1s
27-05-2014, 17:44
And I thought coloured text was obnoxious enough.

Sexiest_hero
27-05-2014, 17:51
I'm actually cool with it, and it seems like it's an nice it and I hope it doesn't get offended when I call it an it because I'm not quite sure what kind of it it is.

AnywhoI stand by nothing could have saved WF besides space marines or broken op units. That's all that really sold in forge world, heresy stuff, and only the most broken of things.

Ramius4
27-05-2014, 17:59
AnywhoI stand by nothing could have saved WF besides space marines or broken op units. That's all that really sold in forge world, heresy stuff, and only the most broken of things.

It doesn't help that they're essentially selling a niche product line, within another niche product line.