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Xerkics
24-05-2014, 13:17
I been trying to read the discussion on subject but i got impression that not much has in fact changed? I dont have the time to read the whole thread can someone post or link me to a summary whats actually new in the edition?

hobojebus
24-05-2014, 13:59
They took the fantasy magic phase and jammed it into 40k, and they added random mission objectives so they can sell over priced cards to sucker that's about it.

Xerkics
24-05-2014, 14:28
From what i read little else has changed? I heard tyranids got hit with nerfed smash and fmc.

hobojebus
24-05-2014, 14:34
Yeah smash is now only one hit fmc I'm not sure on drawing a blank.

Zustiur
24-05-2014, 14:48
Psychics are by far the biggest change.
As mentioned, smash is now 1 attack.
FMCs cannot change speed and charge in the same turn.
A number of other USRs changed, but not drastically. See 3++ is the new black for a better summary of these.
Otherwise... it's 6th ed in a smaller (codex size) book with better layout.

Xerkics
24-05-2014, 15:07
So essentially its 6.5 then ?

Inquisitor Shego
24-05-2014, 15:09
Feels like 6.1. Most revolutionary and fun thing is they've really given the missions a good change and tried to make them fluif mid-battle (so I'm told)

HelloKitty
24-05-2014, 15:30
It has seen the new missions, it seems to be a lot of fun. Even its tournament friends enjoyed them though none of its creatures believe tournaments will ever use them.

It does seem like it is 6.1 and not 7.

Overall other than having to pay for a new filthy precious it is happy with the changes.

Retrospectus
24-05-2014, 15:33
what's the story on precision shots?

Horus38
24-05-2014, 17:48
They took the fantasy magic phase and jammed it into 40k, and they added random mission objectives so they can sell over priced cards to sucker that's about it.

Mmm, strong in this one the butt hurt is. I'm a fan of the new psychic phase as it has both players participating in it rather then one guy standing there while his opponent rolls a bunch of LD checks.

Felwether
24-05-2014, 18:06
They took the fantasy magic phase and jammed it into 40k, and they added random mission objectives so they can sell over priced cards to sucker that's about it.

I think the psychic phase should prove to be interesting. The miscast table looks fun.

Also, €6 for the Tactical Objective cards (36 nicely printed cards in a good quality card stock box) is hardly extortionate, considering how much use you can get out of them.

You also aren't required to have either the objective cards or the psychic cards - they're just handy extras.

stiggie
24-05-2014, 18:29
vector strike and Night fighting have changed, same as grounding tests and Jink, warlord traits and psychic spells tweaked extra missions more rules for terrain pieces. allies matrix is different as well as the 'brothers in arms, desperate allies, come the apocolypse' etc. can't remember what else I read

NemoSD
24-05-2014, 18:34
I am already making my own objective cards and the old psychic cards look like they are still useable. I don't think any of the powers actually changed, they just added two new disciplines.

ihavetoomuchminis
24-05-2014, 18:42
Oh, and there's many of the usual "if you're imperium, hooray, if not, screw you" crap.

Felwether
24-05-2014, 19:03
I am already making my own objective cards and the old psychic cards look like they are still useable. I don't think any of the powers actually changed, they just added two new disciplines.

I actually made an extra set today myself!

The old cards might be usable but you'd have have to modify them a good bit. Most powers have changed at least a little bit and some have even changed disciplines.

DoctorTom
24-05-2014, 21:12
I am already making my own objective cards and the old psychic cards look like they are still useable. I don't think any of the powers actually changed, they just added two new disciplines.

Prescience did.

Ssilmath
24-05-2014, 21:14
I'm working looking up the differences and compiling a list, but I'm not sure if it would be within the rules of the forum to post such a list though. There are a number of changes though, some easy to overlook, that make some pretty significant changes.

Ragnar69
24-05-2014, 21:28
Nice review:
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/05/new-release-warhammer-40000-7th-edition.html

Voss
24-05-2014, 21:37
Nice review:
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/05/new-release-warhammer-40000-7th-edition.html

Pretty comprehensive. Thanks.

mpepperdine
24-05-2014, 21:41
To sum it up in one word:

Disappointment.

NemoSD
24-05-2014, 21:48
To sum it up in one word:

Disappointment.

To counter this:

I am finding the rules refreshing. What they changed in battles, and in the psychic phase alone have drawn my attention. I, personally, have always loved magic in sci fi settings, and this set up really lets me play with that a lot. I get that some people are annoyed by it, but I am just loving the idea of psykers actually having more then just a minor support roll, and playing counter-magic to be feasible to a degree.

Voss
24-05-2014, 21:58
To counter this:

I am finding the rules refreshing. What they changed in battles, and in the psychic phase alone have drawn my attention. I, personally, have always loved magic in sci fi settings, and this set up really lets me play with that a lot. I get that some people are annoyed by it, but I am just loving the idea of psykers actually having more then just a minor support roll, and playing counter-magic to be feasible to a degree.
I really object that counter magic is really only feasible for certain armies (namely those with psychic hoods and the like), or that can force an absurd number of dice in. Praying for 6s just isn't feasible as a strategy, and only against direct powers makes it pretty pointless.

adreal
24-05-2014, 23:05
I'm pretty sure you can dispell blessings. I think dispell would be better if all you had to do was dispell the warp charges below the casting value, but it's not all that doom and gloom.

There are small changes that make sense, and I understand why it couldn't just be in a pdf (largely the changes are a update, not a re write), I'm not happy having to get a new rulebook (that Australia can't get digitally from black library), but it is what it is, nothing changed too much, that's a good thing

Wishing
24-05-2014, 23:48
They took the fantasy magic phase and jammed it into 40k

So a bit like a return to 2nd ed's Dark Millennium? That's kinda neat, I like retro things. :)
3rd ed really was the "we hate psykers" edition, so I'm glad we've come full circle back to "we love psykers" again.

TheBearminator
25-05-2014, 00:09
I think the usr vector dancer has changed. That's a really minor thing though, I just wanted to contribute to the list. ;)

MasterDecoy
25-05-2014, 00:22
I am already making my own objective cards and the old psychic cards look like they are still useable. I don't think any of the powers actually changed, they just added two new disciplines.

Prescience is warp charge 2 now. Just spring I noticed from skimming. As well as the removed d3 rolls on most of the biomancy table.

Sent from my GT-I9507 using Tapatalk

Ssilmath
25-05-2014, 00:32
I think that Beams changed as well, no longer losing a point of strength per model they hit.

Voss
25-05-2014, 00:44
I'm pretty sure you can dispell blessings. I think dispell would be better if all you had to do was dispell the warp charges below the casting value, but it's not all that doom and gloom.

My understanding was that you can't get a bonus to dispel anything that isn't targeted at one of your units (at least not without war gear like psychic hoods). Like I said, praying for 6s (for each success of a success spell, isn't a viable strategy. Unless you go all out of mastery levels (and thus, psykers), you'll rarely have more than 6-10 dice, which is probably one, maybe two single charge spells.

Even with the wargear, unless you have several ML 3 psykers, you're still just hoping for 5s, which isn't all that impressive either. Dispelling feels like something of a fake option. Yes, it is possible, but so unreliable that building a strategy around it isn't really worthwhile. Barring of course, going heavy on psykers to actually do something during your own psychic phase, but otherwise it feels like a poor strategy- just adding yet another section of dice rolling to the returned psychic phase in order to justify its existence as a phase.

Ssilmath
25-05-2014, 00:47
Like I said, praying for 6s (for each warp charge of a success spell, isn't a viable strategy.

Then make your plans as if they're going to get their powers off, and be pleased with the windfall if you are able to deny their buffs.

Voss
25-05-2014, 01:17
Then make your plans as if they're going to get their powers off, and be pleased with the windfall if you are able to deny their buffs.

Right... but the point is the whole dispelling mechanic they added is so bad that it is pointless. The grand net effect of counter spelling is sometimes, maybe, a spell doesn't work. Why did I get 1d6+ML dice for that? What does it really add to the game but another time-wasting step of pointless die rolling? 'Sometimes, Yahtzee!' is insufficient reason for a game mechanic, and from a design perspective, the whole phase is a mess. Get a bunch of dice, treat half your contributing models as batteries rather than actors, take a 50/50 shot, wait for the ineffective dispel attempt, repeat x times. Eventually you'll resolve roughly X number of warp charges per sum of mastery levels (average 2 + 1 for every 2 ML past the first*), going through a multi-step process for each and every one. Just a level 3 psyker versus a level 3 psyker, using nothing but 1 warp charge powers means your rolling a 1d6 12 times, then rolling (on average) 3 tests per phase of 2 dice each, and 1 dispel attempt of 6 dice each phase, x 12. And overall you'll probably get what, 18-20 powers off? Less? Thats a lot of effort for little reward. By comparison a guy with a gun will make 6 rolls over the course of the game. (Assuming no one dies in both cases), and if the character just grants a bonus (like stubborn, or +1A or a kutom force field) there zero extra die rolling at all. Reliable, useful and not a pointless waste of time.

*average on 1d6 is 3.5, so the 1d6 for the base of the phase, +1 level for the first psyker's first mastery level. On average you'll need at least 2 dice for each warp charge of the spell. Its inexact, but roughly how it breaks down. On the reverse, unless you have 6 dice, you're unlikely to dispel even one spell.

hobojebus
25-05-2014, 01:28
Mmm, strong in this one the butt hurt is. I'm a fan of the new psychic phase as it has both players participating in it rather then one guy standing there while his opponent rolls a bunch of LD checks.

They took a three step spellcast and made it into a seven step one, that's going backwards not forwards the games already slow to play it didn't need more time wasting.

Felwether
25-05-2014, 01:34
They took a three step spellcast and made it into a seven step one, that's going backwards not forwards the games already slow to play it didn't need more time wasting.

Wait, where are these seven steps coming from?

Generate Warp Charge.

Cast power

Deny the Witch

Am I missing something?

Born Again
25-05-2014, 02:03
From that summary, I'm not sold. Will reserve final judgement until I actually play a few games, but while some of the stuff like new psychic disciplines, new missions, terrain kit rules etc are cool, the overall rule changes don't sound great to me.

EDIT: something just occurred to me, and forgive me if that has been covered in another thread, but with psychic powers now being manifested with a number of dice needing a 4+, how will, say, Tyranid's Shadow in the Warp work? Tyranids are a regular opponent of mine so will be interested to find out.

mpepperdine
25-05-2014, 05:40
^

Not sure about that. Seems like another instance of typical Games 'we hate Tyranids' Workshop

Losing Command
25-05-2014, 05:53
Bigger chance something goes very wrong once the enemy psyker rolls a perils, as most of the perils results are something along the lines of "roll Ld. if succes -1 wound if failed you're DOOOOOOOOOOMED" ;)

mughi3
25-05-2014, 12:12
Quick summary-
Take all the supplements for 6th edition, put them all in one book, toss in a fantasy style magic phase, make a few tweeks to the vehicle damage table, perils of the warp, charges, skyfire and aircraft damage....oh and unbound armies, about the only thing that can be fun and is going to be horribly abused...at least GW has thrown in the towel and indirectly admitted their game has no balance and we should play fun silly things because everything is broken.

williamsond
25-05-2014, 17:11
how does the new psychic phase fit with old codex powers like the wolves get, do they replace them or are we still going to get jaws spam.

hobojebus
25-05-2014, 17:20
Well last I checked FAQs have not been updated so we don't know.

Horus38
27-05-2014, 13:29
They took a three step spellcast and made it into a seven step one, that's going backwards not forwards the games already slow to play it didn't need more time wasting.

As Felwether said: How are you getting 7 steps out of it?

wyvirn
27-05-2014, 15:24
What constitutes a perils, double ones or double sixes? (On the non demonology powers)

Ssilmath
27-05-2014, 15:34
What constitutes a perils, double ones or double sixes? (On the non demonology powers)

Double sixes on any dice. From what I can see, you can't perils if using a single dice. So, that makes WC 1 powers more unlikely to manifest, though much safer to attempt.

Gungo
27-05-2014, 15:56
One of the cool things this edition that makes vehicles more survivable and not just the vehicle damage table is that vehicles are now ws1 unless immobilized and this has made them much more survivable in assault. But there are still people crying on warseer that vehicles haven't gotten more survivable which is simple not true.

HelloKitty
27-05-2014, 16:46
One of the cool things this edition that makes vehicles more survivable and not just the vehicle damage table is that vehicles are now ws1 unless immobilized and this has made them much more survivable in assault. But there are still people crying on warseer that vehicles haven't gotten more survivable which is simple not true.

It is finding after a couple of weeks on the internet-place that there is a lot of angst among its denizens.

MiyamatoMusashi
27-05-2014, 17:38
It is finding after a couple of weeks on the internet-place that there is a lot of angst among its denizens.

Please stop with the "it" nonsense. It makes your posts very difficult to read and isn't at all cute, nor clever.

HelloKitty
27-05-2014, 17:46
It is sorry the creature feels this way. It will iron its hands in penance when it is night time. :(

Changer
27-05-2014, 18:41
I found the thread much more readable, after i let the cat out ^^

Horus38
27-05-2014, 19:02
One of the cool things this edition that makes vehicles more survivable and not just the vehicle damage table is that vehicles are now ws1 unless immobilized and this has made them much more survivable in assault. But there are still people crying on warseer that vehicles haven't gotten more survivable which is simple not true.

Vehicles had WS1 or WS0 depending if they moved or not last edition as well.

MiyamatoMusashi
27-05-2014, 19:22
It is sorry the creature feels this way. It will iron its hands in penance when it is night time. :(

Straight to the block list, then. All your doubtless incredibly clever and witty contributions will be completely ignored, automatically. Yep. Clever.

duffybear1988
27-05-2014, 19:26
It is sorry the creature feels this way. It will iron its hands in penance when it is night time. :(

Kitty you should drop the o in your name. :)

I say that as a good, positive thing. With your style of writing it's very fitting.

Wolf Lord Balrog
27-05-2014, 19:28
One of the cool things this edition that makes vehicles more survivable and not just the vehicle damage table is that vehicles are now ws1 unless immobilized and this has made them much more survivable in assault. But there are still people crying on warseer that vehicles haven't gotten more survivable which is simple not true.

Kills via Penetrating Hit were relatively rare in 6th, they will just be even more rare now. That didn't really help vehicles much. And as somebody else pointed out, the WS1/0 thing was effectively that way in 6th also. Vehicle survivability is almost the same in 7th as 6th.


It is finding after a couple of weeks on the internet-place that there is a lot of angst among its denizens.


Please stop with the "it" nonsense. It makes your posts very difficult to read and isn't at all cute, nor clever.

Embrace the way of compassion my Samurai friend, don't be so harsh on the Kitty. :)

HelloKitty
27-05-2014, 20:12
Kitty you should drop the o in your name. :)

I say that as a good, positive thing. With your style of writing it's very fitting.

It cannot abide vulgarity in its name. It might get blocked by others which deeply wounds it and makes its eyes wet with glistening emotion.

Gungo
27-05-2014, 20:20
Vehicles had WS1 or WS0 depending if they moved or not last edition as well.
The point is movement doesn't matter. Only when your vehicle is immobilized via the damage chart.
it is not effectively the same. Any vehicle that was stationary is now more durable. There is plenty of times this applies. I don't have to list them here as many vehicles are simply not moving around randomly. Artillery, tanks and other ordnance that is positioned in cover never had that bonus. Before you never moved your vehicle closer to assault so it was usually stationary unless u were doing a ramming atk. This effectively makes them more survivable. I am not talking your theory hammer. I'm talking about actually gameplay. My AM army with 3 russes, 2 wyverns, and a manticore all had better survivability then last edition. I seriously doubt people complaining about this have even played correctly using the new rules if at all.

Horus38
28-05-2014, 00:52
The point is movement doesn't matter. Only when your vehicle is immobilized via the damage chart.
it is not effectively the same. Any vehicle that was stationary is now more durable. There is plenty of times this applies. I don't have to list them here as many vehicles are simply not moving around randomly. Artillery, tanks and other ordnance that is positioned in cover never had that bonus. Before you never moved your vehicle closer to assault so it was usually stationary unless u were doing a ramming atk. This effectively makes them more survivable. I am not talking your theory hammer. I'm talking about actually gameplay. My AM army with 3 russes, 2 wyverns, and a manticore all had better survivability then last edition. I seriously doubt people complaining about this have even played correctly using the new rules if at all.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. The original post made it seem like WS for a vehicle was an altogether new concept.