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KronusDaSneaky
25-05-2014, 16:53
Admittedly it's too early too comp 7th edition and my group intends to play test it in its raw form for the next few months but we have concluded that while it generally appears better than 6th with a few exceptions (assault could be better for one) there is huge issue with GW's psychic phase, namely that there is no limit to how many warp charges a army can have.

We actually like the evolution of psychic phase, if for no better reason then to clear the confusion about when to cast what power but feel what we got is bad equivalent of fantasy's own magic phase. While you could argue invisibility and the malefic table are too strong we feel the core problem is not that people can cast these powers but that they can spam them thanks to certain armies having seemingly limitless numbers of warp charges (an overstatement to be sure but when you have 6 times as many warp charges as your opponent it feels like it). You do not to have to search long online to encounter some 7th edition daemon battle reports to see the full horror of the daemon summoning army, easily having 30 more dice then their opponent within a warforged framework (it could be far worse in a unbound format). We noticed that not only does a huge difference in warp charges skew the game but it also greatly lengthens the game potentially making it impossible to finish in a reasonable time frame and reducing enjoyment generally.

We had a chat over a beer or 2 and one thing we already thinking of implementing is a Warp Charge Cap to a maximum of 12 per turn. The benefit hopefully being that this would shorten what could otherwise be a very long (and possibly dull) phase and make it more interesting generally. We are planning to play test the new edition as it was intended first but are likely to play test a cap. We recognise that a cap would have negative consequences of its own and would in-particular have a negative impact on GK, Daemons and Eldar. We are already considering that we may need to implement work around's in the event a cap were to be introduced, such as making witchfires and unit specific powers (ie. warp quake on strike squads) cost no wp charge but rather have to pass a ld test similar to how it would have been done in 6th.

So the question is would you implement a cap on warp charges? And if so how many do you think would be reasonable?

Minsc
25-05-2014, 16:57
You can do alot more with 12 PD in WFB than you can do with 12 warpcharges in 40k.

I see no need for a cap - psychic powers overall got nerfed in 7th since they are harder to cast, and blessings can actually be dispelled now.

If there where to be a cap, I'd say it would be something akin to 20 warpcharges, and very few armies can reliably get more than 20 in a standard list anyway.

Besides, in my first 7th Ed. game (2000 pts), I had a ML(2) Librarian - my opponent had a Farseer, 3 Spiritseers and a Wraithseer. He had 10 ML's to my 2, and he dominated me in the magicphase, and rightly so - he invested much more points in the psychic phase than me, so he should have an advantage.

Theocracity
25-05-2014, 17:45
I do think that a cap on dice makes sense to consider for comp systems developed for 7th, along with a cap on the number of detachments. What the cap limits it to is up for debate of course - I do think that if you pay a lot for psychic power you should get an advantage for it, but the combination of unlimited dice and unlimited detachments make certain armies a bit silly for competitive play.

BigHammer
25-05-2014, 17:58
No cap, please. I want my opponents to amass psykers, preferably keeping them close together. Then my Crucible of Malediction can remove them all from play at once :D

But seriously, no, I don't think a cap is necessary. The theorycraft behind daemon-summoning armies is all in a vacuum. It doesn't take into account stuff like needing space to summon the units, needing the models for the units you summon, any or all of the powers being denied, etc, but by far the biggest fallacy in the theory is this:

If you spend all your power dice summoning daemons, what are the rest of your daemons going to use for their shooting attacks? They're all psychic powers, after all, and investing the points into the summoning army means no star unit that daemons currently use to dominate their opponents. The opposing army merely needs to concentrate firepower on the summoners, which will be relatively easy to kill with no proper support and all their power dice spent on summoning, and the few units of horrors and heralds that appear in the first turn or so can simply be mopped up afterward. A Daemon player would be much better suited to running a proper army and just having the summoning as a bonus, rather than spending the majority of their points on a gimmick that is easy to counter for pretty much any army in the game.

Oh, and also, the summoning army is hilarious in kill-point games. A decent opponent will be laughing all the way to the victory point bank.

AngryAngel
25-05-2014, 19:30
I think the very fact such talk is already occurring, is funny to me.

New rules, now how do we need to make them work.

For the topic, I don't think a cap is necessary just yet. See how it works first, as even with lots of dice, it may not yield you many gains.

Grocklock
25-05-2014, 21:15
There is a lot if theory talk, which doesn't always transpiore into game play.

Also 20 dice that's if you roll good for the extra dice first off. Then to reliably summon a unit you need to roll 6 dice, hope you don't get 2 6's and your opponent doesn't deny the witch. You can get 4 new units a turn. But there is a lot if if's between 20 dice and 4 new units.
Realistically 20 dice will go you maybe 1 or 2 units a turn. Hope that your opponent doesn't shoot your psychics. Also to continue to build dice you need to summon horrors which are quite squishy themselves.

HereComesTomorrow
26-05-2014, 11:36
But seriously, no, I don't think a cap is necessary. The theorycraft behind daemon-summoning armies is all in a vacuum. It doesn't take into account stuff like needing space to summon the units, needing the models for the units you summon, any or all of the powers being denied, etc, but by far the biggest fallacy in the theory is this:

If you spend all your power dice summoning daemons, what are the rest of your daemons going to use for their shooting attacks? They're all psychic powers, after all, and investing the points into the summoning army means no star unit that daemons currently use to dominate their opponents. The opposing army merely needs to concentrate firepower on the summoners, which will be relatively easy to kill with no proper support and all their power dice spent on summoning, and the few units of horrors and heralds that appear in the first turn or so can simply be mopped up afterward. A Daemon player would be much better suited to running a proper army and just having the summoning as a bonus, rather than spending the majority of their points on a gimmick that is easy to counter for pretty much any army in the game.

Oh, and also, the summoning army is hilarious in kill-point games. A decent opponent will be laughing all the way to the victory point bank.

http://youtu.be/ryMAAP6HWfw

Its an awful battle report but its an example of the daemon factory at work.

Starts at 1850pts, ends and nearly 4000. Summons 90 models by turn 2.

Saying that the daemon factory isn't a thing is just silly.

tneva82
26-05-2014, 12:07
Funny how people had no problem with 20 warp charges in 6th ed yet suddenly 20 warp charges in 7th ed is problem despite the fact that one warp charge isn't as powerful as before and is riskier.

Before 18ML psykers could fire 18ML1 spells at roughly 90% success rate with no dispel for meaningful spells.

If now those want to try 18 ML1 spells that's 50% success rate AND opponent can dispel regardless of is spell worthless witchfire or meaningful spell.

If you want roughly equal success rate you need 4 dice to ML1.

For ML2 if you want to try to cast equal number you have mere 25% chance to succeed...For roughly same chance you need lot more.

And perils went from once in a blue moon to regular with nastier effects as well.

So no. If there's problem it's with individual spells. Not warp charges.

tneva82
26-05-2014, 12:11
http://youtu.be/ryMAAP6HWfw

Its an awful battle report but its an example of the daemon factory at work.

Starts at 1850pts, ends and nearly 4000. Summons 90 models by turn 2.

Saying that the daemon factory isn't a thing is just silly.

And if I'm not mistaken daemons didn't win that game...

Woo! DAEMONS ARE AUTOWINNING NOW! Except wait...They didn't win.

And ok they got lots of points. How many points they didn't get from other spells? Other spells generate point worth as well. So if you gain 100 pts unit nice. Unless you miss on spell that would be worth 150 pts ;)

totgeboren
26-05-2014, 12:26
Another solution might be to implement some sort of "psychic storm" rule. The player who is the 'defender' in the psychic phase gets a +1 to all DtW rolls against Malefic powers for for every five dice above 10 the attacking player has. Lets say it represent the warp becoming increasingly hard to control the more psykers are gathering in one place, all pulling at the currents at the same time, creating feedbacks and whirls and crap.

So 11-15 warp charge generated would give him +1 to DtW,
16-20 would give +2,
21-25 +3,
26-30 +4
31-35 +5
and so on.

In the first turn of the linked battle report the daemon player had I think it was 38 warp charge, so he would need cast other than Malefic powers for a while, or cast Malefic that would be almost auto-Denied for a while before getting any reasonable chance of summoning anything. Since it only applies to summoners/Malefic users, it would promote for example daemon players to use powers from many disciplines, instead of just flooding the board with more daemons.

If excessive warp charge armies becomes a problem in my group (I'm the only Daemon player so I'm not worried!), I will suggest we try this fix and see what happens.

It's a bit sad that it took, what, a few hour for just about everyone to see how 7th edition could be totally broken? How the designers at GW did not see or chose to ignore this is pretty sad. It's like they take no pride in their work at all.

HereComesTomorrow
26-05-2014, 12:28
And if I'm not mistaken daemons didn't win that game...

Woo! DAEMONS ARE AUTOWINNING NOW! Except wait...They didn't win.

And ok they got lots of points. How many points they didn't get from other spells? Other spells generate point worth as well. So if you gain 100 pts unit nice. Unless you miss on spell that would be worth 150 pts ;)

They didn't win because they got screwed by random objective cards. If you removed the cards the Daemons would have won easily.

tneva82
26-05-2014, 12:29
They didn't win because they got screwed by random objective cards. If you removed the cards the Daemons would have won easily.

Ah yes. "If you ignore part of the rules they would have won easily".

Well gee duh. Of course if you start cherry picking rules you can get easy wins for anybody ;)

HereComesTomorrow
26-05-2014, 12:46
Ah yes. "If you ignore part of the rules they would have won easily".

Well gee duh. Of course if you start cherry picking rules you can get easy wins for anybody ;)

Did you actually watch the report? Almost all the marines players points came from the cards. At the end of the game the daemon player controlled all the objectives and had nearly tabled the marines.

Its just more random for the sake of random.

tneva82
26-05-2014, 12:57
Did you actually watch the report? Almost all the marines players points came from the cards. At the end of the game the daemon player controlled all the objectives and had nearly tabled the marines.

Its just more random for the sake of random.

Are the rules part of the game?

If yes then you can't go "without those...".

GEE OF COURSE if you cherry pick rules you can do wonders. I'll ignore shooting rules then. See how your tau without shooting phase is tabled by my orks. Mwahahaha.

Game isn't about killing but getting victory points.

totgeboren
26-05-2014, 13:12
Are the rules part of the game?

If yes then you can't go "without those...".

GEE OF COURSE if you cherry pick rules you can do wonders. I'll ignore shooting rules then. See how your tau without shooting phase is tabled by my orks. Mwahahaha.

Game isn't about killing but getting victory points.

Now you are just being obtuse. The daemons going from 1850 pts to 4000 pts, and the marines being almost wiped out by the daemons would on average happen no matter what cards or what scenario you play. That means that if we ignore the cards in this case, and posit an 'average battle', it could be The Relic, Big Guns Never Tire or one of the new scenarios but just with slightly different cards being drawn, the daemons would still go from 1850 pts to 4000 pts and the marines would still be wiped out or almost wiped out.
In almost all other battles, being almost wiped out makes it impossible to win, meaning on average it would be almost impossible to win for the marines.
In this battle report they did win, but only because of a rather extreme luck with the cards. The daemons finished the game at around 4000 pts because of fairly average rolling, which they on average will do in any given average battle.

Stuff like this is fairly easy to house-rule or tournament rule. First of all, the daemon player was cheating because he didn't follow WYSIWYG. If you don't have the models, you can't deploy them. Seeing as how most people don't want to buy 100 Horrors, flesh hounds, greater daemons and Bloodcrushers just to get a rather unfair advantage, I think malefic will be fairly self-regulatory as long as you play by the rules (no proxies!).

If that doesn't work, I had a suggestion earlier in the thread of buffing the DtW if the enemy spams psykers, but even easier would be "each conjuration power may only be attempted once per psychic phase per army". Done.

You can have an army of summoners, but you will at most get one squad of lesser daemons, one herald, one daemonic elite and one Greater Daemon. That should be more than enough for anyone wanting to steam-roll their opponent.

tneva82
26-05-2014, 13:15
Now you are just being obtuse. The daemons going from 1850 pts to 4000 pts

And how much points they didn't get with other points? Maybe with other spells they could go to 4500...

"Bit" early to go all doom and gloomy over ONE battle report which wasn't even won by them.

Razhem
26-05-2014, 13:16
Are the rules part of the game?

If yes then you can't go "without those...".

GEE OF COURSE if you cherry pick rules you can do wonders. I'll ignore shooting rules then. See how your tau without shooting phase is tabled by my orks. Mwahahaha.

Game isn't about killing but getting victory points.

OK, so if the demon player had flipped the easy VP cards and the marine hadn't would it make the summoning be overpowered then or would your arbitrary mental system would make it be ok too?

Freakiq
26-05-2014, 13:21
OK, so if the demon player had flipped the easy VP cards and the marine hadn't would it make the summoning be overpowered then or would your arbitrary mental system would make it be ok too?

Ignoring important rules isn't arbitrary, and a single game isn't evidence that Daemons are broken now.

Not saying you're wrong, just that you need more evidence.

totgeboren
26-05-2014, 13:30
And how much points they didn't get with other points? Maybe with other spells they could go to 4500...

"Bit" early to go all doom and gloomy over ONE battle report which wasn't even won by them.

Well, that daemon army will one average get around 30 warp charge per turn. If you just use Summoning (the primaris) and use 6 dice for each, you will be able to cast 5 summonings per turn, and you should succeed with 4 of them. So that's a net gain of around 450 pts per turn (remember that conjured daemons get one champ, one instrument and one icon for free).
So turn 1 you would go from 1850 to 2300 pts, turn two 2750, turn 3 3200, turn 4 3650 and turn 5 4100 pts, and that's not taking into account that some smaller daemons can turn into Heralds, and it doesn't take into account that these Heralds and summoned squads of Horrors can sometimes turn into Greater Daemons too. And it doesn't take into account that the enemy army will try to kill them, but reaching 4000 pts on the table at the beginning of turn 5 should not be hard at all for this daemon army.

I agree that shouting doom and gloom is an over-reaction. This path of abuse is so obvious for anyone that has played a few games of 40k that it's easy to just say "I don't want to play a summoning-spam army if you don't mind?". Same as declining games vs TauDar, Ripetide spam or Heldrake spam in 6ed if you had an army that would have no possibility of dealing with such opponents at all.

But denying that the daemon summoning army breaks the game sounds a bit odd to say the least. Better to accept it and simply not use it.

HereComesTomorrow
26-05-2014, 13:31
Ignoring important rules isn't arbitrary, and a single game isn't evidence that Daemons are broken now.

Not saying you're wrong, just that you need more evidence.

Its always like this on Warseer.
How muvh evidence will be enough?
Heres another battle report where the cards are in the Daemon factory's favor:

http://daemons40k.blogspot.ie/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html?m=1

Daemons are 8-1 up by turn 3.

Freakiq
26-05-2014, 13:51
Its always like this on Warseer.
How muvh evidence will be enough?
Heres another battle report where the cards are in the Daemon factory's favor:

http://daemons40k.blogspot.ie/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html?m=1

Daemons are 8-1 up by turn 3.

Thanks for the link, that does seem bad.
Hopefully they'll fix it somehow, maybe disallow summoned Horrors from getting Daemonology.

I'd still want to play against such an army myself though.

Nubl0
26-05-2014, 13:54
The fact that marines won because of the mission cards despite almost being wiped speaks volumes to me about this edition.

Freakiq
26-05-2014, 13:56
The fact that marines won because of the mission cards despite almost being wiped speaks volumes to me about this edition.

I've won several games by holding more objectives despite almost being wiped since 3rd edition.

Yvain
26-05-2014, 14:13
The fact that marines won because of the mission cards despite almost being wiped speaks volumes to me about this edition.

It just means people aren't used to the cards yet. The old strat of kill troops win game no longer applies. This is going to get worse as the majority of cards are take objective X. Daemons can summon a super scoring unit from 12 inches away and then move in the opposite direction to grab another with no real penalty.

To me is really just lets play a game where I have around 3000 points vs your 2000.

Bubble Ghost
26-05-2014, 14:31
I don't know about arbitrary caps. Might be a decent stopgap if the problem gets out of hand. But I think I'd prefer it if your dice pool was the roll of the D6, and only that roll. Then, when using one or more dice from your pool to manifest a power, a psyker could choose to add a number of further dice up to their mastery level.

That way there's a built in cap on the actual number of powers you can manifest each turn, because you need at least one die from your pool. And weaker psykers might face a hard time manifesting uberpowers at all on a low roll, no matter how many total mastery levels the army had, and would even have to think twice about going for Divination with its WC2 primaris.

Then again, I don't tend to play with WAACmongers, so meh.

Grocklock
26-05-2014, 14:37
An easy way to cap it is to say psychics generate a dice for each ML that they are which only they can use. Every one can use dice from he comual pool.

That way level 1 are not used as batteries for ML3 psychics

totgeboren
26-05-2014, 15:02
An easy way to cap it is to say psychics generate a dice for each ML that they are which only they can use. Every one can use dice from he comual pool.

That way level 1 are not used as batteries for ML3 psychics

That's probably the best solution I have heard so far. :)

itcamefromthedeep
26-05-2014, 15:13
Psychic powers overall got nerfed pretty hard this edition even when they didn't need to be nerfed. It's a handful of powers that are problematic. Prescience, fortune, perfect timing, the summoning ones, and now perhaps some biomancy stuff. It's those powers that needed the nerf bat, along with the Grimoire (max 3++) or perhaps change the Tzeench rule to re-rolling 2s rather than 1s.

My favored house rule would be to change the Perils chart. Perhaps #2 causes an unsaveable wound to every psyker within 36". That'll cut down on psyker battery shenanigans.

Yvain
26-05-2014, 15:18
That's probably the best solution I have heard so far. :)

I second that.

Bloodknight
26-05-2014, 23:23
That's probably the best solution I have heard so far.

That's just WFB 7th's magic system.

adreal
27-05-2014, 04:05
In the fronting gaming battle report, the marine player had a terrible list and the terrain was somewhat excessive (looked awesome though). The marine player knew ahead of time that the daemon list was going to be built that way, and did nothing to counter it (but fronting gaming are obsessed with knights, so there is that).

I'm not saying that daemon armies won't be excessive, and bringing a list like that to a pick up game is unfair, but the marine list in question had alot of expensive squads (legion, knight, twiggy) even knowing he was going up against a daemon spam list.

Following the rules (No proxies) will keep daemon spam under control, also building a list with some anti infantry on non over priced models helps, maybe even use transports.

Is a high warp charge army bad for the game?? Yeah, but it's no different then other types of armies that game the system

Voss
27-05-2014, 04:20
That's probably the best solution I have heard so far. :)

As others have mentioned, it was implemented in fantasy years ago. It is downright baffling that they re-broke a known problem when implementing it for 40k.

MiyamatoMusashi
27-05-2014, 11:13
I've won several games by holding more objectives despite almost being wiped since 3rd edition.

I think, for me, there is a difference between a desperate holding action that ends up with an army nearly being annihilated, but fighting hard and brave to keep their objective for long enough to secure victory; and rolling a dice (or picking a card) that says you get a VP because it's your first turn and you haven't moved out of your deployment zone yet.

The former can be a result of careful planning and skilful play, that you can intentionally aim for, from deployment to the very end of the game, even if your army takes a beating in the meantime. (It's exactly why objectives are good and games shouldn't be decided only based on casualties). The latter is just random chance; if the cards fall well you win, if they don't you lose.

Even the battle report in this week's White Dwarf showed this in action. None of the discussion about the game said anything to do with the winning player playing well, making good decisions or the right choices. All of it was about which mission cards got drawn. It was quite extraordinary to read.

Wayshuba
27-05-2014, 12:42
And if I'm not mistaken daemons didn't win that game...

Woo! DAEMONS ARE AUTOWINNING NOW! Except wait...They didn't win.

And ok they got lots of points. How many points they didn't get from other spells? Other spells generate point worth as well. So if you gain 100 pts unit nice. Unless you miss on spell that would be worth 150 pts ;)

Which also showed that the Objective Cards are broken. I love how he discards kill a flyer because his opponent didn't have a flyer. Those cards really take away a lot of the player element of the game and turn it into the luck of the draw. Notice both players were uncertain at the end of the battle if the cards were a useful addition to the game. Time will tell though.

Wayshuba
27-05-2014, 12:44
Are the rules part of the game?

If yes then you can't go "without those...".

GEE OF COURSE if you cherry pick rules you can do wonders. I'll ignore shooting rules then. See how your tau without shooting phase is tabled by my orks. Mwahahaha.

Game isn't about killing but getting victory points.

Ummm, cherry picK? THose cards are used in Maelstorm of War missions, not Eternal War, which are also part of the standard rules. Daemons will roll over any army with the summoning factory like that and only "by the luck of the card draw" in Maelstorm Missions will you stand a chance. If your in Eternal War, forget it.

Wayshuba
27-05-2014, 12:45
Stuff like this is fairly easy to house-rule or tournament rule. First of all, the daemon player was cheating because he didn't follow WYSIWYG. If you don't have the models, you can't deploy them. Seeing as how most people don't want to buy 100 Horrors, flesh hounds, greater daemons and Bloodcrushers just to get a rather unfair advantage, I think malefic will be fairly self-regulatory as long as you play by the rules (no proxies!).

Gotta love Pay To Win.

itcamefromthedeep
27-05-2014, 12:58
If you're going to make house rules to stop the daemon farm, then why not stop the problem itself rather than a more general rule that causes collateral damage?

If someone brings a Grey Knight army that includes a Librarian and three Strike Squads in Rhinos and then rolls a 6 for the number of "free" warp charges, why should that player be punished? What's broken about 15 warp charges on that set of psykers?

It's like Highlander tournaments (you can only take one of each unit). That rule does more to nerf weak armies with few powerful choices (Sisters) than it does to nerf powerful books with a deep bench (Eldar). If you have a problem, then fix the *problem*.

MiyamatoMusashi
27-05-2014, 13:12
If you're going to make house rules to stop the daemon farm, then why not stop the problem itself rather than a more general rule that causes collateral damage? ... If you have a problem, then fix the *problem*.

I get what you're saying, but declaring a house rule of "Daemons can't do X, Y, and Z" is going to get a lot more complaints from Daemon players feeling unfairly picked on, than a general rule saying "in the psychic phase you can only do X".

Also, by the way of things, if Daemons can't do it any more, can someone else do something very similar? (Eldar or GK maybe? I don't know their lists well enough to say). If so you'll soon end up playing house-rule-whack-a-mole where Daemons can't farm more Daemons and Eldar can't make their entire army invisible and, well, I dunno, whatever. Easier and potentially fairer to fix it at the core.

Changer
27-05-2014, 13:36
Tell me, what merit does a summoning horde have, that a balanced list will not? Basically you create a lot of choices that are right now already subpar. Or why do demons rock all tourneys with almost all of their codex entries? They don´t. This list IS powerful, no point to deny. However, they won´t see any chance of victory against a multitude of options (AM Wyvern for example, Heldrakespam, or even Walker with AV13). In short: This is a competitive build. To compare it with anything but other competitive build is useless.

Bloodknight
27-05-2014, 13:44
You spam a horde of daemons and then start turning those into bigger, flying daemons ;).

Changer
27-05-2014, 13:51
An impressive feat indeed. I reckon this will take about 2 rounds each? So your enemy will do nothing for 3-4 turns? Really? oO And even then, you´re likely to sit in your deployment zone, since i would assume it is safer there. And from this position you´re going to win the game within the remaining turns? I remain sceptical.

itcamefromthedeep
27-05-2014, 13:57
I get what you're saying, but declaring a house rule of "Daemons can't do X, Y, and Z" is going to get a lot more complaints from Daemon players feeling unfairly picked on, than a general rule saying "in the psychic phase you can only do X".

Also, by the way of things, if Daemons can't do it any more, can someone else do something very similar? (Eldar or GK maybe? I don't know their lists well enough to say). If so you'll soon end up playing house-rule-whack-a-mole where Daemons can't farm more Daemons and Eldar can't make their entire army invisible and, well, I dunno, whatever. Easier and potentially fairer to fix it at the core.As it happens Grey Knights can't use malefic.

---

The Eldar daemon farm could work, but you need to cut out a fair deal of summoning in order to match the threat presence of flying Daemon Princes. You can do something like Inquisition primary for a Skull-caddy and then allied detachments of Eldar with each detachment bringing a pair of small Jetseer units and then a unit of Windriders to fill Troops. You can fit 6 of those allied detachments in 1850, I believe, with each one having enough warp charge to throw 6 dice at summoning and a spare to Ghosthelm away the Perils. The army is lacking in a few ways, and you'd need more experienced eyes to build something approximating a strong list out of it.

---

The problem isn't necessarily Daemons summoning Daemons, but the summoning powers themselves. What I'd recommend for daemon summoning is to make most of the summoning powers Warp Charge 4, which means you have less than a 50-50 of casting it even with 6 dice. I think that would be enough. That's the kind of measure I was thinking of, a nerf to those problematic powers directly. It doesn't need to involve picking on Daemons (or Eldar). Another possibility would be that at the end of your turn, roll a die for each newly-summoned unit, and on a 1 or 2 your opponent controls the new unit for the rest of the game.