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View Full Version : Does Space Wolf Runic Weapons work againts Summoning?



Unicorn
28-05-2014, 11:25
How do people interpret the runic weapons for Space Wolves now, do they get +1 to all deny the witch rolls or just the ones targeting them and their unit? Since I can see it going either way. Page 26 in the rulebook says you get no bonuses when you attempt to deny if you are not a target, but Codexes come before the rulebook if there are conflicts, and the new FAQ say: "furthermore, a model with a runic weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls" and trying to stop daemons from being summons is a deny the witch roll.

And just to check since its in the same area, Runes of warding grants the unit taking a Deny the witch roll +2 to deny the witch. In the rulebook, if you are the target of a power you choose a unit that try to nullify the power with a deny the witch roll. And if you are not the target you follow the same as above, so it stands to reason that you choose a unit that tries to deny the witch and if they use the runes they get a +2 bonus

Any thoughts?

totgeboren
28-05-2014, 11:40
I think they only get the bonus if they are eligible to do the Denying, and for a specific model/unit to be eligible they have to be one of the targets of the power. So casting maledictions or witchfires at space wolf rule priests will be really hard (as they are psykers and have their runic weapons, so a +2 to the dice minimum, +3 or more if they are Njal), but I don't think an ability like that would work if the Rune Priest is not the target.

I dunno, maybe this topic should be moved to the rules forum?

hobojebus
28-05-2014, 11:47
You didn't expect GW to make thing clear did you wolfbrother?

You may get an official answer in six months but for now you'll have to house rule it, SW in lore and game are the anti magic army much like dwarves so I'd say you can still try to stop any cast if the rune priests in range even if not the target, but it's really gonna depend on your group until the new dex hits.

Hal'jin
28-05-2014, 12:19
Guys. Read the rule


If none of your units were target of the enemy's psychic power you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls

How much clearer do you want it?

The fact you get +1 modifier in no way overrides the fact you do not use modifiers in that particular case. Those two rules work perfectly alongside, just like all the other bonuses. If it did override it, it would specifically say that "you get +1 even if you are not the target". It doesn't.

hobojebus
28-05-2014, 12:48
Well I presume that rules in the brb and that loses to the codex, the FAQ only removes the first paragraph.

"Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice"

Nothing in the FAQ counters this and codex is always more correct than the rulebook so RaW says you can counter anything within 24 inches, method of casting and countering has altered but the ability to shut down magic remains the same.

Hal'jin
28-05-2014, 12:57
Well I presume that rules in the brb and that loses to the codex, the FAQ only removes the first paragraph.

"Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice"

Nothing in the FAQ counters this and codex is always more correct than the rulebook so RaW says you can counter anything within 24 inches, method of casting and countering has altered but the ability to shut down magic remains the same.

But what does this have to do with Deny the Witch and modifiers? Deny the Witch cares not for range in 7th, just if you are targeted (use modifiers, Runic Weapon being one of many) or not (do not use any modifiers).

WLBjork
28-05-2014, 13:04
But what does this have to do with Deny the Witch and modifiers? Deny the Witch cares not for range in 7th, just if you are targeted (use modifiers, Runic Weapon being one of many) or not (do not use any modifiers).

I'm trying to work out why there are people who can't interpret something so simple.

The FAQ would have to specify that the bonus always applied in order to be able to use the bonus against summoning and the like.

hobojebus
28-05-2014, 13:04
Spells cast within 24 allow the roll regardless of the target all the rule needs for activation is that an enemy passes the test, as long as that happens the rune weapons allow you to roll to shut it down.

It's not my fault they made it inconsistent, they only removed being able to choose SW powers they didn't touch their ability to shut down magic at range.

And it won't get cleared up until the next dex which is why I said house rule it in my first post.

Unicorn
28-05-2014, 13:07
Well I presume that rules in the brb and that loses to the codex, the FAQ only removes the first paragraph.

"Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice"

Nothing in the FAQ counters this and codex is always more correct than the rulebook so RaW says you can counter anything within 24 inches, method of casting and countering has altered but the ability to shut down magic remains the same.

Me and my group came to the conclusion that: "Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice" is also replaced by the FAQ so that in only gives +1 if you are the target. I hope you are right and I am wrong since I want a hard counter to summoning, even if its only in a 24 bubble.

Hal'jin
28-05-2014, 13:12
Spells cast within 24 allow the roll regardless of the target all the rule needs for activation is that an enemy passes the test, as long as that happens the rune weapons allow you to roll to shut it down.

It's not my fault they made it inconsistent, they only removed being able to choose SW powers they didn't touch their ability to shut down magic at range.

And it won't get cleared up until the next dex which is why I said house rule it in my first post.

But isn't that another topic altogether? What you're talking about is that GW screwed up the sentence numbering and did not remove the old ability of runic weapons to shut down powers.

What the OP is about is the deny the witch bonus.

Two different rules, two different issues. The first one is a screwup they will fix, the second is a very clear rule.

Weazel
28-05-2014, 13:24
Well I don't have the new rulebook yet, but it really comes down to wording on casting psychic powers currently. Is there such thing as a "Psychic Test" anymore? If not, the 'psychic bubble' rule would never kick in by RAW.

Furthermore I'm fairly certain that the FAQ should say replace fourth sentence instead of third. Replacing the Force weapon rule makes no sense to me. But if you want to play it by RAW, Runic Weapons are not Force weapons as it stands now according to the FAQ.

Edit: Ok I got my hands on the rule book and it's indeed called a Psychic Test. So according to the FAQ and RAW, Rune Priests still have the 4+ dispel bubble but no Force weapon.

hobojebus
28-05-2014, 21:57
Well I don't have the new rulebook yet, but it really comes down to wording on casting psychic powers currently. Is there such thing as a "Psychic Test" anymore? If not, the 'psychic bubble' rule would never kick in by RAW.

Furthermore I'm fairly certain that the FAQ should say replace fourth sentence instead of third. Replacing the Force weapon rule makes no sense to me. But if you want to play it by RAW, Runic Weapons are not Force weapons as it stands now according to the FAQ.

Edit: Ok I got my hands on the rule book and it's indeed called a Psychic Test. So according to the FAQ and RAW, Rune Priests still have the 4+ dispel bubble but no Force weapon.

Which is nuts and why i said house rule it because the FAQ is borked, I dont think its intended that they keep the 4+, i'm not even sure its intended they have a 5+ when within 24 of an enemy caster.

But RaW currently reads as weaz says.

ihavetoomuchminis
28-05-2014, 23:27
No way. If SW have a +1 modifier to ALL DtW rolls....i would field khorne hounds in every single game....giving me a +2 to all DtW rolls. Hooray!

Weazel
29-05-2014, 07:23
I think +1 to ALL DtW would be in the spirit of the "old" rule, but not as overpowered. But again until we have a properly worded FAQ or a new codex the +1 DtW doesn't affect Blessings and Conjurations. It's clearly stated in the BRB that denying those type of powers cannot benefit from any modifiers. However if you conjure within 24" of a Runic Weapon the power is dispelled on a 4+. By RAW.

hobojebus
29-05-2014, 12:14
No way. If SW have a +1 modifier to ALL DtW rolls....i would field khorne hounds in every single game....giving me a +2 to all DtW rolls. Hooray!

No one's claiming it isn't a screwed up FAQ, we are just saying as it stands that's how RaW reads to us.

Hal'jin
29-05-2014, 13:54
No one's claiming it isn't a screwed up FAQ, we are just saying as it stands that's how RaW reads to us.


How on earth does it read like that? +1 to DtW is a modifier and you are not allowed to use modifiers if the power is not targeting you. This is one of the clearest rules in the book. How on earth can you read it otherwise?

Btw, the sentence number screwup was just fixed.

hobojebus
29-05-2014, 14:10
How on earth does it read like that? +1 to DtW is a modifier and you are not allowed to use modifiers if the power is not targeting you. This is one of the clearest rules in the book. How on earth can you read it otherwise?

Btw, the sentence number screwup was just fixed.

Because codex beats rule book and when we started this thread the FaQ said: furthermore, a model with a runic weapon adds 1 to deny the witch rolls.

Notice it does not mention that rule about not adding modifiers? the faq just says it adds +1 it places no limitations on when that comes into effect other than its during deny the which rolls, it mentions no where "cast against the rune priest and his unit"

And now they've fixed the FAQ so they remove the 4th line not the 3rd it now reads space wolf rune priests can stop spells on a 5+ with no range limit which makes them very strong anti casters still.

Icarus81
29-05-2014, 14:18
Because codex beats rule book and when we started this thread the FaQ said: furthermore, a model with a runic weapon adds 1 to deny the witch rolls.

Notice it does not mention that rule about not adding modifiers? the faq just says it adds +1 it places no limitations on when that comes into effect other than its during deny the which rolls, it mentions no where "cast against the rune priest and his unit"

And now they've fixed the FAQ so they remove the 4th line not the 3rd it now reads space wolf rune priests can stop spells on a 5+ with no range limit which makes them very strong anti casters still.

Now you're just making things up, because thats not how it works at all. There is no conflict between the codex and the BRB.

Hal'jin
29-05-2014, 14:23
Because codex beats rule book and when we started this thread the FaQ said: furthermore, a model with a runic weapon adds 1 to deny the witch rolls.

Notice it does not mention that rule about not adding modifiers? the faq just says it adds +1 it places no limitations on when that comes into effect other than its during deny the which rolls, it mentions no where "cast against the rune priest and his unit"

And now they've fixed the FAQ so they remove the 4th line not the 3rd it now reads space wolf rune priests can stop spells on a 5+ with no range limit which makes them very strong anti casters still.

Codex trumps RB, yes, but only if the rules are conflicting. How are these two rules conflicting:

- You get a +1 modifier
- When attempting to Deny the Witch, if a unit of yours is a target of the psychic power add some modifiers. If none of the units are a target, apply no modifiers.

There is absolutely no conflict between these two rules, so that codex takes precedence. There would be a conflict if the rule said "Add +1 to the DtW roll, even if none of your unit's a target of the psychic power". Then codex could take precedence.

Read the wording of Adamantium Will. It's identical, except it mentions a unit, not a model. Would you argue it adds +1 to DtW as well?

This reminds me way too much of the 5th ed. argument that demons do not get FNP, since they have no armor save...

Saunders
29-05-2014, 15:53
+1 to DtW is a modifier and you are not allowed to use modifiers if the power is not targeting you. This is one of the clearest rules in the book. How on earth can you read it otherwise?

^^^ This, a thousand times.


To answer the OP's question, "no." Runic Weapons do not have any effect against summoning, or any power that does not target the unit with a runic weapon.

NemoSD
29-05-2014, 16:23
Codex trumps RB, yes, but only if the rules are conflicting. How are these two rules conflicting:

- You get a +1 modifier
- When attempting to Deny the Witch, if a unit of yours is a target of the psychic power add some modifiers. If none of the units are a target, apply no modifiers.

There is absolutely no conflict between these two rules, so that codex takes precedence. There would be a conflict if the rule said "Add +1 to the DtW roll, even if none of your unit's a target of the psychic power". Then codex could take precedence.

Read the wording of Adamantium Will. It's identical, except it mentions a unit, not a model. Would you argue it adds +1 to DtW as well?

This reminds me way too much of the 5th ed. argument that demons do not get FNP, since they have no armor save...


This reminds me of the dark angel death wing assault rule where people were using the lack of mention of the reserve rules in the codex as justification for an all reserve termie army despite the fact the book nor core rules ever were in doubt that the 50% rule was still in effect.

Of course, now you can do all reserve termie lists. I need more termies.

Unicorn
29-05-2014, 19:27
They have uppdated the space wolf faq so that the fourth sentence should be changed to, and furthermore a runic blade adds +1 to deny the witch rolls. So rune priests dispell like the old days*now dont they? I dont have the book infront of me so

AngryAngel
29-05-2014, 19:53
I don't think they add to it. Simply by the main rulebook talk, any deny the witch attempts are made with no modifiers. It doesn't say the runic weapons alter that, I think it is more sloppy wording in they don't specify deny the witch done on the unit they are in. Though as always, they could have been more clear in their intent.

Hal'jin
29-05-2014, 20:46
They have uppdated the space wolf faq so that the fourth sentence should be changed to, and furthermore a runic blade adds +1 to deny the witch rolls. So rune priests dispell like the old days*now dont they? I dont have the book infront of me so

The old dispelling was the fourth sentence. Previous FAQ was an error, that removed the sentence about Runic Weapon being a Force weapon.

This therad will never die, will it?

Unicorn
29-05-2014, 20:57
Ah, i dont have the book but that solves it, so no dispelling then :-(