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bobthebobish
28-05-2014, 17:59
I'm hosting an apocalypse game this next month for our store and unfortunately I can't fathom getting through a turn in a reasonable amount of time without changing the psychic phase rules. Just adding up the psyker mastery levels on each side could take considerable time let alone figuring out who on each side will use how many dice for which power etc. Not even really looking to balance out the issues just trying to streamline it so turns don't increase in length more than they already are! Any ideas?

Chem-Dog
28-05-2014, 20:03
Turn time limits, force the players to stick to a schedule by promising the end of a turn regardless of which phase they're in, that should gee them up. Warn them this'll happen ahead of time and why you're doing it and you might see a massive drop in the number of Psykers being fielded.

Alternatively "massive warp disturbance" Roll a D6 for every Psyker in your side at the beginning of the turn, on a 1 they're forced to do nothing as they battle the roiling energies of the Empyrean. They can't move, shoot, use Psychic Powers, or fight in combat - Psykers fighting a combat when affected or charged whilst affected may fight back but will not inflict any wounds as they are merely defending themselves and far too concerned with containing the tumultuous energies to have a hope of focussing on landing a killing blow.
Psykers who are affected may opt to go to ground.
Lasts until the beginning of your next turn, when you roll again to see if the model is affected.

Tweak the likelihood of being affected according to taste.

bobthebobish
28-05-2014, 20:12
We do already impose a time limit I'd just rather not see the required time for a turn go up to add in the new phase. I suppose limiting the number of psykers that can be activated might help though.

Furls
28-05-2014, 20:15
Assign psykers to players in advance. Multiple the d6 depending on the size of there game and dived the dice up amongst players. They can always beg each other to help deny things on their end of the table.

Theocracity
28-05-2014, 20:21
One interesting alteration to the system I've heard is the requirement that any psychic test has to use at least one dice from the d6 pool. That might be too limiting for Apoc, but could be shifted a bit (you could increase this arbitrary number, or remove the requirement for common tests like force weapons, or something).

Drasanil
28-05-2014, 21:37
You could just let each psyker get 1 of their powers off free each turn and leave it at that. No rolling, no denying, etc etc. That should speed things up quite a bit, use your power and move on to the next psyker.

bobthebobish
28-05-2014, 21:45
interesting ideas but letting each psyker do one free power is too crazy with the daemon powers sadly. Maybe just go back to 6th ed psyker powers and rules?

=Angel=
28-05-2014, 22:16
Group similar psykers(sorcerors, librarians,) into squads . generate powers as a squad, use powers as a Brotherhood of psykers squad with combined mastery level.

Eg, 5 ML2 Sorcerers of tzeentch roll at the start and get two witchfires and tzeentch primaris.
Each turn they try to get 5 witchfires off at the same target.


It'll only be a problem when people insist on using psykers in other squads to get blessings out, which is a pain to remember and lots of individual rolls for seperate squads.

As incentive to squad up, add a 2 inch buff to range for each psyker squad member- the aforementioned squad would get ten inches extra on their powers.

Drasanil
28-05-2014, 23:16
interesting ideas but letting each psyker do one free power is too crazy with the daemon powers sadly. Maybe just go back to 6th ed psyker powers and rules?

Well, you're already house-ruling powers for the game, it'd be no harder to add some restrictions to summoning on top like telling them to be reasonable about it :)

WLBjork
29-05-2014, 08:08
For the mastery levels thing, a separate sheet detailing Psykers and mastery levels. Cross out the dead psykers when they get killed. Then you can add them up more rapidly.

In the same vein, you could have a set of tokens/dice, the number of which is equal to the mastery levels. Again, just as long as the appropriate number are removed when a psyker is killed, should help keep track of that.

Baaltor
29-05-2014, 09:38
Off the top of my head:

1.Limit the allowed number of psykers
2. Use "negative" math: I saw you said totalling up psyker numbers would be a chore, and I can't remember where I read this idea, because it was over a decade ago, but... Basically use the fact that you know you have a certain number of something, and instead of recounting it, instead count the change in it. So if you start a game, and have one side with 20 Warp charges per turn, and lose 4 warp charges worth of psykers, you subtract the 4 warp charges for the guys you lost rather than counting the 16 that exist. Yeah, this might sound kind of nonsensicle, and it can require more preparation, but it has very tangible benefits and isn't that hard to work into everything you do, not just warhammer.
3. Streamline Powers. It's not just 40k at a bigger scale. Well, it is, and that's why apocalypse has so many problems. But if you want to fix Psychics being a chore to deal with, you could scale their abilities up, and remove the detail of how they work. For example:

=>Each discipline has an ability, and an effect:
Biomancers: Give units within 6"xML FNP 6+, and can force all failed wounds against a single enemy within 6"xML to be rerolled
Pyromancers: Give units within 6"xML Soulburn, and can inflict 1d6xML S5 AP4 hits with Soulburn on an enemy unit within 12", or 1d3's at 24"
Telepaths: Give units within 6"xML Stubborn, and fear, and can cause a number of enemies equal to ML to take a morale test as if from shooting casualties
Telekineticists: give any unit within 6"xML a 5+ Inv. Save, and can automatically pin an enemy unit within 6"xML"
Diviners: Give units within 6"xML Rerolls of 1's for armour or shooting, and allow a number of units equal to ML to reroll all failed armour or shots

Something sort of characterful for each school, but trim down the details so you're not calculating like NASA, and the psychic phase is limited to: "I do this, this and this" instead of seven stages of rolling, accompanied by every party considering the implications of their actions for whatever.

MajorWesJanson
29-05-2014, 16:28
Or try breaking apart the psykers to their owners. One dice for psychic points, and each player gets that number of points plus their own psyker levels to do with what they want. For deny the witch, either a player who is targeted by a power can dispell, or any other player can attempt to dispell on 6s, but only one player can attempt to dispell each power.

Baaltor
30-05-2014, 21:00
Or try breaking apart the psykers to their owners. One dice for psychic points, and each player gets that number of points plus their own psyker levels to do with what they want. For deny the witch, either a player who is targeted by a power can dispell, or any other player can attempt to dispell on 6s, but only one player can attempt to dispell each power.

I might be missing something/stupid, but I don't see how this solution addresses the time/bookkeeping problem. I mean, don't get me wrong, because I think your interpretation makes lots of sense, and is probably the way I'd want to go about doing it.

MajorWesJanson
31-05-2014, 04:30
I might be missing something/stupid, but I don't see how this solution addresses the time/bookkeeping problem. I mean, don't get me wrong, because I think your interpretation makes lots of sense, and is probably the way I'd want to go about doing it.

Maybe if one player brought a ton of psykers it could be a problem (though that can be an issue in normal gams vs Tzeench Daemons), but if you have each player doing their own psykers, wouldn't that allow multiple powers to be going on at once, and bookkeeping would be split among all the players? Not a major simplification, just should save some time by allowing multiple players to do their casting in parallel rather than in sequence by side.

Speaking of Apoc and Psykers, how exactly do the Psychic choir megapowers manifest now?

Chem-Dog
01-06-2014, 09:27
We do already impose a time limit I'd just rather not see the required time for a turn go up to add in the new phase.

Without knowing what that time limit is, it's hard for me to comment accurately, but telling your players to suck it up goes a long way in Apoc. If they want to do it a different way, let them organise the next one :)

Drifter00
01-06-2014, 19:42
How exactly does the psychic phase work in Apoc as far as generating warp dice goes? If we have 3 players on one side with psykers and 2 players on the other side, how do you determine how many warp dice is generated? i.e. does each player on the 3man team roll a dice and then the other side together gets a warp charge pool to DNW that they decide how to allocate together? Or is this a house rules type of deal?

bobthebobish
01-06-2014, 23:13
Currently the psychic phase works the exact same in apoc as a normal game meaning you roll 1D6+ ALL mastery levels added together. In a 50k+ point game this can be HUGE. I think we are just going to revert back to 6th ed psychic rules and powers to avoid the rampant stupidity and time elongation. Our usual time limit per turn is 1.5 hours which worked fine before the psychic phase. I could easily see demons alone running it up to 2.5 hours per turn which is not fun at all.

GW please stop writing rules that you expect your 'fans' to fix for you for free. I'm hoping to actually get people for this apoc game even though our once bustling 40k scene around here has yet to see a single 7th ed game yet. *crossing fingers*

Baaltor
02-06-2014, 03:49
GW please stop writing rules that you expect your 'fans' to fix for you for free. I'm hoping to actually get people for this apoc game even though our once bustling 40k scene around here has yet to see a single 7th ed game yet. *crossing fingers*

IMHO the problem is the lack of rules in Apoc.. They just increased the size of the game without adding any new mechanics to facilitate the increased game size.