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sholcomb
29-05-2014, 06:44
I just had an idea about how we might make Warhammer an even more tactical game. What if we said that the order of the phases of a turn were not set? What I propose is saying that the combat phase must be last in any given player turn, but at the beginning of every player turn, each player declares which order they want to play the movement, magic and shooting phases in. For example, I might want to do magic first, then movement, then shooting. If this were included in the new game set, I would also include some sort of snap-together tiles to make it obvious what was chosen each turn, in order to make it easy to remember and more difficult to cheat.

Of course, you would need to add a few rules, such as;


If you shoot in the shooting phase, you cannot march, charge, reform, or swift reform in that turn's subsequent movement phase (and maybe a -1 movement to offset a lack of -1 to hit penalty you would have had)
If a unit is moved during the magic phase by a spell that does not allow charging, you may not charge in that turn's subsequent movement phase


I feel like this simple change in the rules would add a plethora a tactical opportunities (and force hard decisions). What do you guys think?

Snake1311
29-05-2014, 10:23
I feel like this simple change in the rules would add a plethora a tactical opportunities (and force hard decisions). What do you guys think?

This is actually a common fallacy - there was an article one of the MtG designers wrote about it ages ago, to do with the plethora of Instant spells in the game and their strength (these were cards you could play at any point). In theory, they provided flexibility, since you could play them in your turn, or on your enemy's turn, in any phase. In practice, they would always get played at the last possible moment, because that is the sensible decision.

In warhammer you get the same thing. Let say you have a cannon and a knight unit as empire, facing off on a flank vs a Chaos chariot. The way the game is now, you have to decide in the movement phase whether you charge the chariot, or whether you will attempt to shoot it - you get one shot at each, so its a hard decision. If you could pick phase order, you'd shoot it, and if you don't kill it, you'd charge it then - there really isn't any thought process in there, as that is the obvious best solution.

Plus, this kind of decision puts a lot more power in the hands of the player whose turn it is - the game's "one full turn for me, than one full turn for you" already does swing the power quite a lot, but lowering that discrepancy (my turn = "I am a god", your turn ="sadness")actually makes the game a lot more interactive.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
29-05-2014, 16:40
I'm with Snake on this one. The turn order creates a movement phase that is full of risk and decision-making. Do you charge into combat, or try for another round of shooting and magic? In the magic phase do you focus on the target your magic is best suited to? Or soften up the optimal targets for your shooting? Moreover, you're making many of those decisions in the movement phase before you know whether you're even going to have enough dice for your plan. How much risk do you expose yourself to?

In short, the constraints of the present system force you to make tough choices early on and live with the consequences. In the system you propose the decisions would be much more obvious, and the consequences more immediate and apparent.

The only difference is that having interchangeable shooting and magic phases might be interesting. Do you debuff first and THEN shoot? Or do you shoot first, and use magic to clean up? Though honestly I think it's fine just the way it is.

copesh
29-05-2014, 18:08
I have always thought it would be interesting if the turns were for both players. In other words, in the movement phase Player A does an action with a unit. Then Player B does one. Then Player A does something with another unit and so on until all units have moved/charged/marched or both players pass. Then the same in Magic. This phase, you'd roll one winds of magic and both players get the approriate power and dispel dice as per the rules (both dice for power, highest for dispel) then trade off casting spells. Then the same in shooting and so on.

The only thing you would need to do is hand off first action each turn. So, the player that wins the roll off at the beginning fo the game would go first in the first, third and fifth turn.

This could allow really interesting tactical scenarios to develop.

Alltaken
29-05-2014, 18:43
We used to play mordheim like that with my gaming group. In fact first we randomed for each phase who would mover first, shoot first, magic first. I
Needless to say it wasnt fun.

In Fantasy it only really opens up sinergies with magic, which will need re balancing of spells.
Other options is just shooting before changing ti wither units, which is simple not very ground breaking.

Walk between worlds would be terribly OP. And you would shoot then move for no penalty fire.

From my servoskull

Katastrophe
29-05-2014, 20:41
I have always thought it would be interesting if the turns were for both players. In other words, in the movement phase Player A does an action with a unit. Then Player B does one. Then Player A does something with another unit and so on until all units have moved/charged/marched or both players pass. Then the same in Magic. This phase, you'd roll one winds of magic and both players get the approriate power and dispel dice as per the rules (both dice for power, highest for dispel) then trade off casting spells. Then the same in shooting and so on.

The only thing you would need to do is hand off first action each turn. So, the player that wins the roll off at the beginning fo the game would go first in the first, third and fifth turn.

This could allow really interesting tactical scenarios to develop.

For a while in 6th and some of 7th we did almost exactly this. Each turn we determined initiative by d6 + general's leadership. most of the time that was a coin toss.

each side was able to move a ratio of elements divided as equally as possible so if A had 4 and B had 6 you'd get A move 1 then B move 2, then A move 1 then B move 2, then each move 1 element (with each set of charges made at the time of the move). We experimented with reverse initiative order for units declaring their move but that got too complicated.

everything worked pretty good overall and it really made you think about your moves and there was plenty of charges counter charges and tactical decisions on moving troops around.

Magic wasn't much of an issue since we basically went with allowing the number of dice each magic phase by the standard rules and each person taking turns casting their spells and dispelling (it worked like the 3-4th edition magic phase where you could cast in either turn). Because the dice were relatively low for each turn and the amount you needed to cast and dispel magic was not at all overpowered (actually it was relatively low).

We made some other modifications but there were kinda minor in the big scheme of things. We found that games went about 30-40 minutes faster and we were able to get more games in. Combats were much more devastating because we had plenty of charges, counter charges, multi unit combats and MSU was much more prevalent due to the meta of wanting more elements.