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Captain Idaho
29-05-2014, 19:00
Posted this elsewhere but no luck...

Reading the 6th edition missions I think we've found the great balancer to stop players playing the numbers with list building gunlines etc and force players to use skill to compete for objectives.This is because they could be ANYTHING!*I talk of course of the Maelstrom of War missions that use Tactical objectives.*These missions are additional things to remember and a little complicated, but there is one which I believe is the true standard for 40K simply because it is straightforward and has enough variance to never be the same game twice. I am talking about Cleanse.

In a competitive environment it is actually a great way of getting players to play diverse lists built strategically rather than parking lot kill hammer.*What do other prospective tournament goers and organisers think of this?

Note I'm assuming Unbound armies will be banned from tournaments as that is the most likely scenario I can forsee.

sephiroth87
03-06-2014, 05:05
I like the mission cards, but I'm still not sold on the "kill a flyer, kill a psyker, etc" cards. I think as part of a tournament, one of the games should involve maelstrom of war, but only use the secure the objective cards. It would take out a lot of the potential for getting card after card that you couldn't use and would only be a single part rather than the whole thing.

lethlis
03-06-2014, 05:49
I think tournaments are going to stick to the alternate mission format they were finalizing at the end of 6th which incorporate a lot of things like the tactical cards.

It is a way to bring in themes like the tactical cards without the randomness of it all.

HelloKitty
03-06-2014, 13:15
It reads on other sites from tournament organizers and players that the cards will never be used because too random.

Geep
03-06-2014, 14:01
I agree that if you stick only with 'take objective X' it may be ok for tournaments.

If you include the 'kill a psyker', 'kill a flyer', etc. you can bet I won't fielding psykers, flyers, building fortifications, etc- If I can force my opponent to have an objective they can't possibly accomplish, I will. It's the easiest method of victory points denial in the game.

hobojebus
03-06-2014, 14:10
From what I've read on dakka and other sites unbound was thrown out straight away, as we're mission cards.

What they were struggling with was how to limit the magic phase, obviously not wanting tzeenchian clown car to spoil everyone's fun but also not wanting to stop demon players attending, apparently it got heated in some circles.

Spiney Norman
03-06-2014, 14:15
From what I've read on dakka and other sites unbound was thrown out straight away, as we're mission cards.

What they were struggling with was how to limit the magic phase, obviously not wanting tzeenchian clown car to spoil everyone's fun but also not wanting to stop demon players attending, apparently it got heated in some circles.

Everyone is so overprotective of their uber-broken builds arent they.

Captain Idaho
03-06-2014, 20:06
Though a vocal element has spoken out against the Tactical Objectives, most of the feedback (all in fact) I've read/heard has been favourable.
It's the min maxing or cheese gamers who don't like the missions because they aren't able to paper, rock, scissors it.

If you're a player who will drop psykers because a one in 36 chance someone can get a single VP out of you if they kill it, then you'll lose out on such models in your list. Let's hope you're not losing out because of it.

Unfortunately the tournament organisers probably won't want to buck the trend and upset the status quo.

Which is a shame.

HelloKitty
03-06-2014, 20:12
Not necessarily true. This one knows of several tournament organizers that are using these objectives.

Ssilmath
03-06-2014, 20:17
Everyone is so overprotective of their uber-broken builds arent they.

Unfortunately so.

Honestly, I think the cards could work out for tourneys with a couple caveats. The TO places the objectives, and always places them in the middle of the table. And if a player pulls a card they cannot use (Kill a psyker against Necrons, for example), they can immediately discard and draw a new one. This would also tie in with the ability to discard and draw one card at the end of the turn anyways, thus helping make sure that somebody isn't getting hosed.

NazaryleLordofFate
04-06-2014, 07:33
Everyone is so overprotective of their uber-broken builds arent they.

Why should daemons not be able to bring their full range of psykers? They have access to more psykers than any body.

totgeboren
04-06-2014, 08:02
Everyone is so overprotective of their uber-broken builds arent they.

To be honest, there are lots of Tzeentch-themed Daemon players who were around before 7ed was released, and Tzeentch was nerfed to the ground when it comes to their previous/intended way of playing. First of all all their HQs are lvl 1 psyker minimum, and they rely entirely on psychics to win their battles. Their Troops, the big squads of Horrors can no longer cast their 3D6 shooting power without using up the power dice of another big squad nearby, and they are also reduced to around a 75% chance of even getting their reduced-by-half basic shooting attack off (which will also likely peril risking the entire squad and/or leaving them with no shooting attack). Also, since a unit cannot cast the same power twice, this means that if the Herald casts Flickering Fire, the squad can't even cast at all! And Horrors with their Heralds have the same profile as humans, but with no weapons so what are they suppose to do now that they can hardly shoot at all?

Even the screamerstar is pretty nerfed, since you only got one chance of getting Forewarning off and it is mostly likely easily Denied, unless the daemon player pours lots of dice into it to ensure it can't be denied, but then they will likely peril and so on.

I mean, seriously, an army that used psychics for both offence and defence is almost unplayable with these new psychic rules if they don't get anything else. Malefic can be abused, but if your opponent does that you will be facing an army of what is essentially unarmed guardsmen with a 5++ save, and possibly some FMCs depending on if the daemon gets some possessions off.

Balancing it is hard, because they will win by simply swamping the table and the game system works on the premise that both have around an equal number of units, and that most units are there to actually fight the enemy, not just stand around/be in the way (like Grots, who are extremely overcosted compared to their Ork cousins, but costing them at 2 pts each seems pretty extreme too).

Snake Eyes
04-06-2014, 08:07
I am currently in the process of writing a Tournament Package for my local gaming club. It will be the first tournament we have run and we are starting with just the 3 local clubs for attendees to trial run it. The new Tactical Objectives is one of the things that we think will bring a lot more enjoyment for the tournament. It should hopefully limit the sit at the back and shoot things into oblivion style armies and see people bringing some more interesting style armies.

The one thing that we will do is remove the "Destroy an enemy building" from the deck of cards for all games. We feel that this just isn't worth being in the deck due to how very few people actually use or bring buildings to the local clubs. Also we will allow anyone who has drawn a card that can not be completed by either player, to discard it and draw a new one straight away. This will help balance things out a bit, but we do not want to go to far.

If you are running a Librarian for example and your enemy has no psykers. If you draw "kill the enemy psyker" you would not be allowed to discard it as it is something that could be completed by either of you. We take it as instead of you gaining a Victory Point, you are denying your enemy a point they could take. You can then discard it at the end of your turn as per usual.

We will also only be allowing Battle Forged Armies. We are going to trial it with no limitations on allies or warp charges. So far there has been no issue with Daemon Summoning armies or any out and out craziness in the local area. The only person who did attempt it lost his first 3 games with the army and decided it just wasn't that good so stopped playing it.

Captain Idaho
04-06-2014, 09:01
I'm thinking of arranging a tournament soon for a B&C donation drive, and I'd be very interested to hear how things pan out. Please keep me updated, including feedback from attendees. :)

Oh and I don't know if players need to worry about the objectives being unachievable. There are already rules in place for discarding missions. But your solution seems great. If NEITHER player can achieve a mission you can exchange it freely.

Poseidal
04-06-2014, 09:47
I think cards aren't going to be used in tournaments because they are impractical in the environment. You need to make sure all the cards are present, and don't go missing and you need to think about getting a deck for each table or how you are going to manage splitting the deck over multiple tables.

tneva82
04-06-2014, 10:06
I think cards aren't going to be used in tournaments because they are impractical in the environment. You need to make sure all the cards are present, and don't go missing and you need to think about getting a deck for each table or how you are going to manage splitting the deck over multiple tables.

Then again the cards aren't required. They are play AIDS that you can use if you want to make life easier. But they are not required to play with tactical objectives.

RandomThoughts
04-06-2014, 10:53
Honestly, I think the cards could work out for tourneys with a couple caveats. [...] And if a player pulls a card they cannot use (Kill a psyker against Necrons, for example), they can immediately discard and draw a new one.

My thoughts exactly.

Captain Idaho
04-06-2014, 10:57
I think cards aren't going to be used in tournaments because they are impractical in the environment. You need to make sure all the cards are present, and don't go missing and you need to think about getting a deck for each table or how you are going to manage splitting the deck over multiple tables.

Yeah cards aren't necessary really. A note pad to keep track of which 3 missions you've got or completed. There's a D66 table in the rules.

itcamefromthedeep
04-06-2014, 16:47
I'll repeat my suggestion from elsewhere. Let both players have access to the whole deck right from turn 1, but each objective marker can only contribute toward one tactical objective card per turn. Nobody gets stuck with a hand they can't use, and every objective on the table matters every turn.

Captain Idaho
04-06-2014, 17:38
Sounds like it would restore the status quo of armies that are skewed to sit back and wipe people out without requiring skill. Not to mention the book keeping involved.

Cleanse and Control is pretty darn fair. Both players will have the same chance of rolling missions they don't like, unless you use an army that is skewed in favour of damage output. That's fair. Why should a Tau player be able to blow you off the board in a yawn fest sit back and shoot style AND have missions in their favour?

And you can exchange a mission every turn remember.