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Dark_Mage99
02-06-2014, 14:29
I know fast cavalry lose the rule when a character joins, but what about non-fast cav units with vanguard?

Ramius4
02-06-2014, 14:39
I know fast cavalry lose the rule when a character joins,

No they don't. They only lose it if the character does not also have the Fast Cavalry special rules. For instance, a Chaos Lord can ride a Steed of Slaanesh with the Fast Cavalry special rule, or a Dark Elf Master on an Elven Steed with the Fast Cavalry special rule, etc. etc.


what about non-fast cav units with vanguard?

Depends on the source, and whether or not the source of the Vanguard rule is conferred to the character as well.

If you're talking about Strollaz Rune or the Wood Elf banner, then yes, any character that joins those units also have Vanguard.

Dark_Mage99
02-06-2014, 15:17
No they don't. They only lose it if the character does not also have the Fast Cavalry special rules.

Obviously.


Depends on the source, and whether or not the source of the Vanguard rule is conferred to the character as well.

If you're talking about Strollaz Rune or the Wood Elf banner, then yes, any character that joins those units also have Vanguard.

I'm thinking in terms of chaos hounds with vanguard.

Is there something in the rules to prevent a character joining them and benefitting from vanguard?

Ramius4
02-06-2014, 15:44
Is there something in the rules to prevent a character joining them and benefitting from vanguard?

Yes. The character does not have the Vanguard special rule. You could throw him on a Steed of Slaanesh and do it though.

bigbiggles
02-06-2014, 16:20
yeah, the whole unit has to have vanguard in order to do it.

T10
02-06-2014, 17:53
Most special rules take heterogeneous units into account using qualifiers such as "if one or more models in the unit has this rule", or requiring a majority of models or all models with the special rule. But sometimes the designers forget this principle and start referring to units having a special rule or other model-specific aspect, e.g. a unit of infantry, a unit of goblins, a Fear-causing unit etc.

I've not noticed any general rule that would indicate wether a "unit of x" requires all or some of the models to be of the relevant type, but sometimes the game designers seem to make assumptions. For example, a regular Orc model has the Animosity special rule, a Black Orc character does not. A unit consisting of models that all have the special rule is clearly "a unit subject to Animosity". However, if the unit has ben joined by a Black Orc character, it is still expected to take the Animosity test. In this particular case, having one or more models with x constitutes a "unit of x".

-T10

Dark_Mage99
02-06-2014, 18:04
Yes. The character does not have the Vanguard special rule. You could throw him on a Steed of Slaanesh and do it though.

Is there a rule for it, though? I don't think there is, as vanguard is an ability of fast cavalry, and given as it is in this case, is separate from it.

Giving a unit that ability doesn't make them fast cavalry, it just allows them to make a vanguard move.

Ramius4
02-06-2014, 18:18
Is there a rule for it, though? I don't think there is, as vanguard is an ability of fast cavalry, and given as it is in this case, is separate from it.

Vanguard is indeed its own rule.


Giving a unit that ability doesn't make them fast cavalry, it just allows them to make a vanguard move.

I didn't say it makes them fast cavalry. But giving a character the fast cavalry rule allows him to make a Vanguard move, along with your unit of Chaos Hounds (assuming you also gave them the Vanguard rule).

It's much like a unit of Scouts. A character could not deploy with them, unless he also had the Scouts special rule.

It's as simple as that.

Dark_Mage99
02-06-2014, 18:41
That's different, since scouts are deployed after characters.

I suspect you're all right, but I'm pretty sure there's no rule to cover it.

Ramius4
02-06-2014, 18:44
That's different, since scouts are deployed after characters.

Not characters that have the Scouts special rule... Which was my point.


but I'm pretty sure there's no rule to cover it.

Yes there is. It's called Vanguard :p Models either have it, or they don't.

Blkc57
02-06-2014, 22:43
That's different, since scouts are deployed after characters.

I suspect you're all right, but I'm pretty sure there's no rule to cover it.

There is in the errata, when you look on certain character mount profiles they will say if that mount counts as fast cavalry (such has dark steeds or seekers of slaanesh in their respective character mount profiles). If the mount counts as fast cav then whole model counts as fast cavalry and gains the Vanguard special rule as per the errata:

Page 82 – Cavalry, Cavalry and Special Rules. Add “If the mount has the Fast Cavalry special rule, then the whole model has it.” to the list of exceptions.

Lord Dan
03-06-2014, 03:25
I know fast cavalry lose the rule when a character joins...


They only lose it if the character does not also have the Fast Cavalry special rules.


Obviously.

I know Ramius is going to overlook this because he's a nice guy, but I have to say that I found this incredibly rude. It may have been "obvious", but he only stated it to correct your apparent misunderstanding of the otherwise-obvious rule.

Your opening post was wrong as it was written. He clarified, not just for you, but for anyone else reading this thread. Saying: "Thanks" is generally the accepted response.

Spiney Norman
03-06-2014, 08:26
yeah, the whole unit has to have vanguard in order to do it.

Which is why my wood elf stag lord will spend another edition on the shelf because once again they declined to provide me with a unit that he can join that moves faster than 5" a turn...

Mr_Rose
03-06-2014, 10:32
Define "unit he can join" please? What's wrong with Wild Riders?

Ero-Senin
03-06-2014, 15:17
Define "unit he can join" please? What's wrong with Wild Riders?


He won't be fast cav like them so wont vanguard or have free reforms etc. You can put him in the unit but you then take away a load of the units special abilities. Really Sucks!

Wesser
04-06-2014, 09:28
Which is why my wood elf stag lord will spend another edition on the shelf because once again they declined to provide me with a unit that he can join that moves faster than 5" a turn...

Only if you actually want to Vanguard Wild Riders..

I don't... I find them too vulnerable to leave in the open. Instead I hide them in the back and have them be my rapid response force. I usually don't need their fast cavalry rule for those purposes

Alltaken
11-06-2014, 21:55
Only if you actually want to Vanguard Wild Riders..

I don't... I find them too vulnerable to leave in the open. Instead I hide them in the back and have them be my rapid response force. I usually don't need their fast cavalry rule for those purposes

Fast cav reform facility is lost. Thats the whole point

Only if you actually want to Vanguard Wild Riders..

I don't... I find them too vulnerable to leave in the open. Instead I hide them in the back and have them be my rapid response force. I usually don't need their fast cavalry rule for those purposes


From my servoskull