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View Full Version : Is there and increase tread to skip the magic phase?



gingersmali
03-06-2014, 00:05
This was touched on in another thread, so sorry if its too similar.

Is there an increasing trend in tournament play to bypass your magic phase, due to the risk of blowing up your wizard?

I obviously don't mean every turn. But often there is often only one spell you really want to cast but its not worth the risk of 6 dicing.

I have seen and increase tread of players just skipping there phase, is this just my local meta/some of the youtubers I watch? (oncebitten360)

Ramius4
03-06-2014, 00:11
Not that I've ever seen.

HurrDurr
03-06-2014, 00:11
Probably as people improve they see the logic in passing on a phase where the reward doesn't warrant the risk. Players with misfiring units will pass on some shooting phases because of turns where there are no targets worth risking a shot at.

Ramius4
03-06-2014, 00:14
Probably as people improve they see the logic in passing on a phase where the reward doesn't warrant the risk. Players with misfiring units will pass on some shooting phases because of turns where there are no targets worth risking a shot at.

Yeah, well that's understandable. But the OP is talking about a "trend". There's a difference between that and smart play.

gingersmali
03-06-2014, 00:18
Yeah, well that's understandable. But the OP is talking about a "trend". There's a difference between that and smart play.

I'm talking about all cases, but this is mainly a trend I've seen in tournament play.

Lord Dan
03-06-2014, 00:23
I'm talking about all cases, but this is mainly a trend I've seen in tournament play.

I've yet to play a tournament game against a non-themed non-Dwarf army which didn't have a Lv. 4 caster.

gingersmali
03-06-2014, 00:29
I've yet to play a tournament game against a non-themed non-Dwarf army which didn't have a Lv. 4 caster.

I'm not saying they don't have a wizard.

It could just be chance, but in a few of my games lately my opponents seemly either skip their phase, or 6 dice one of the "Uber spells" though. That said i might be my list.

On a side note what are the other spells in the big 6?

Ultimate Life Form
03-06-2014, 00:30
Yes, basically the advent of 8th meant that no army will ever leave the house again without a L4. However if he casts or not is an entirely different matter. Maybe people take him mainly for his dispelling properties and don't want to lose that advantage to bad dicerolling? Because, if he does nothing all game, half a dozen warmachines would probably be a better investment for the cost.

I've seen a L4 Savage Orc Shaman blowing itself up via miscast, once even on the first casting attempt, and taking half of ist unit with it, twice in a row. That was pure fun. For me. :p

Lord Dan
03-06-2014, 00:33
I'm not saying they don't have a wizard.

It could just be chance, but in a few of my games lately my opponents seemly either skip their phase, or 6 dice one of the "Uber spells" though. That said i might be my list.

On a side note what are the other spells in the big 6?

Big 6? I've honestly never heard that term, though if I had to venture a guess it would be:

Final Transmutation, Pit of Shades, Dwellers Below, Dreaded 13th, Black Horror...

Hm. I can't think of another bomb spell. Anything, gents?

gingersmali
03-06-2014, 00:35
Just to add i play a pretty standard OnG list I run a lot of MR on my Savages, this and the 2 snipes in big waaagh might have something to do with this.

gingersmali
03-06-2014, 00:36
Big 6? I've honestly never heard that term, though if I had to venture a guess it would be:

Final Transmutation, Pit of Shades, Dwellers Below, Dreaded 13th, Black Horror...

Hm. I can't think of another bomb spell. Anything, gents?

Mind razor me thinks, wish i could find where i read that now... Maybe its means big number 6 spells. rather than 6 big spells.. arrrgh trying to find it.

SpanielBear
03-06-2014, 00:41
Big 6? I've honestly never heard that term, though if I had to venture a guess it would be:

Final Transmutation, Pit of Shades, Dwellers Below, Dreaded 13th, Black Horror...

Hm. I can't think of another bomb spell. Anything, gents?

Purple Sun, obviously! Lord Dan, shame on you!

Lord Dan
03-06-2014, 00:44
Oh, duh! :p

gingersmali
03-06-2014, 00:45
Purple Sun, obviously! Lord Dan, shame on you!

yer that would make sense as they are all test or die spells.

Sexiest_hero
03-06-2014, 00:46
Even if I don't take a wizard I take bound spells. You can always chuck dice at them with almost no regrets. I have not seen or heard of this trend at all.

Folomo
03-06-2014, 00:50
No Love for foot of Gork?

forseer of fates
03-06-2014, 00:56
If the big spells were bonked on the head with the nerf bat, all would be well in the land.

gingersmali
03-06-2014, 01:01
I don't do this, 6 dice foot every go :P ha ha no i think the big waagh normally has two spell worth throwing dice at, hand its never really bad.

The times i remember this happening to me most at tournaments is against WoC/DOC players with daemon prices/Greater daemons especially running metal, also disk mage lords, a Skaven player i know does this, had an orge player skip a lot of magic phases too.

HurrDurr
03-06-2014, 01:21
Fiery convocation is another big one.

SteveW
03-06-2014, 01:22
I was up pretty big in a game and did not decide to bypass my magic phase and instead tried to chain lightning my opponents last three models off the table. threw three dice at the spell, got 3 sixes and destroyed half my lance as my prophetess blew up. The worst part is that i rolled 1 wound and a 1 to wound, then it failed to jump to the next guy. It turned a massive win into a draw and I will think before I cast next time...

...Nah, Ill just throw more dice :)

MOMUS
03-06-2014, 01:49
Its not a trend, its just logical play. In ANY magic phase its obvious to weigh the risks of each spell, skipping casting is just the same logic taken further.
In most tournaments when one payer has won, its not worth the risk in the last two turns. You could for example easily turn a 15-5 to a 10-10.
Recently I played a dwarf army at a tournament, last turn he has just a unit of iron breakers inc Lord. I could have ran up and tried a 6 dice purple sun and tried to poison off the rest. As I already had the win in the bag I backed off with the skinks (no last turn long charge risk) and drifted just close enough on the flank for a spirit leech and caress.


Fiery convocation is another big one.

No, just no.

Spiney Norman
03-06-2014, 07:34
This was touched on in another thread, so sorry if its too similar.

Is there an increasing trend in tournament play to bypass your magic phase, due to the risk of blowing up your wizard?

I obviously don't mean every turn. But often there is often only one spell you really want to cast but its not worth the risk of 6 dicing.

I have seen and increase tread of players just skipping there phase, is this just my local meta/some of the youtubers I watch? (oncebitten360)

Hold on are you talking about skipping the odd phase (like your turn 1 magic phase where everything is out of range) or skipping every magic phase?

I can't imagine spending 200+pts on a wizard I am not going to use to cast with at all.

The only armies I have ever seen skip magic phases routinely are dwarf players.

Urgat
03-06-2014, 07:38
I often don't cast anything. My gob shamans are there primarily to dispell, their spells are usually not worth the risk to lose them.

SpanielBear
03-06-2014, 07:50
I often don't cast anything. My gob shamans are there primarily to dispell, their spells are usually not worth the risk to lose them.

I skip a phase if I have no spells worth casting, but I have resigned myself to at least one detonating wizard per game.

At least last week my Branchwraith did her best to make it work for me, suicide bombing a hell-pit and skaven slave unit turn six...

Urgat
03-06-2014, 08:50
I skip a phase if I have no spells worth casting, but I have resigned myself to at least one detonating wizard per game.

Not me :p To be honest, compared to the BRB spells, the Little Waaagh!!! is really lacklustre. The spells I face wouldn't be so nasty, I wouldn't worry so much, but I've seen entire units of trolls and dozens of goblins vanish with one stupid spell, so I'm pretty happy to not cast an itchy nuisance if I can avoid my trolls to be swallowed by the ground next turn. Even the 6th spell isn't so hot that I would risk a miscast for it. My shamans start casting when I've managed to neuter the enemy wizards, usually. Since usually the enemy wizard is sitting happily in a unit of chaos warriors, well, they don't get to do it so often :p

theunwantedbeing
03-06-2014, 09:39
When you're winning it makes sense to not do anything where you have a reasonable chance to explode and die which could cost you the game.
So magic gets skipped due to it's inherent risks, along with using cannons and other artillery.

It's not so much a trend as simple risk management

GrandmasterWang
03-06-2014, 12:15
TC all good this is a different topic.

In some games (serious games, not chill hammer) I have opted not to cast spells.... especially on the 2nd to last and last turns as a way to ensure I don't lose my wizard.

Cost - benefit analysis really.

The other topic is all about both players skipping the magic phase altogether. No spell generation, no nothing

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Vipoid
03-06-2014, 15:33
As a VC player, I think the only time I've skipped my magic phase entirely was after all my wizards were dead, save for my ghoul king. It was a Triumph and Treachery game, and I didn't want to cast anything because I strongly suspected one of my opponents had the card that makes a wizard miscast.

Other than that, I might end a phase prematurely (e.g. if I've run out of useful spells, or if my opponent has a pile of dispel dice and it's not worth the risk). But, there's almost always *something* I'll want to try and cast, so it's exceedingly rare for me to ever skip the magic phase.

(In case it matters, all my casters are generally using Lore of the Vampires - rather than Shadow or Death.)

SpanielBear
03-06-2014, 15:53
As a VC player, I think the only time I've skipped my magic phase entirely was after all my wizards were dead, save for my ghoul king. It was a Triumph and Treachery game, and I didn't want to cast anything because I strongly suspected one of my opponents had the card that makes a wizard miscast.

Other than that, I might end a phase prematurely (e.g. if I've run out of useful spells, or if my opponent has a pile of dispel dice and it's not worth the risk). But, there's almost always *something* I'll want to try and cast, so it's exceedingly rare for me to ever skip the magic phase.

(In case it matters, all my casters are generally using Lore of the Vampires - rather than Shadow or Death.)

I think using lore of the Vampires does matter, but in a positive way. First off, successfully casting a spell allows you to restore lost wounds. You can blow up every time you utter a can't rip, but that'll hardly matter because you need never drop below 1 wound. Secondly, you have easy to access resurrection spells. So you go nuclear and kill 15 skeletons. Oh well...

This is counteracted a bit by the heightened danger that losing spell levels or being sucked into the warp poses for a vampire counts player, but really I'd say lore of the vampires is actually one of the safest lores to use.

boli
03-06-2014, 17:05
I've skipped it a few times but mainly if I only have a level 1 or 2 and the range of my spells is low (e.g. if I only took a level 1 or 2 plague priest in a 1.5k game). plus you can end up in a situation where you have 1 spell in range and the magic phase nets your opponent 6-dice. so you either 6-dice and risk it or lower and go the inevitable dispel.

In truth it all depends on the number of viable spells you can cast and are in range determines if we have a magic phase or not

Alltaken
03-06-2014, 17:11
. No, just no.

Why is fiery convocation not a big spell? Its pretty much targeted at hordes really, but its great against them

From my servoskull

Vipoid
03-06-2014, 17:14
I think using lore of the Vampires does matter, but in a positive way. First off, successfully casting a spell allows you to restore lost wounds. You can blow up every time you utter a can't rip, but that'll hardly matter because you need never drop below 1 wound. Secondly, you have easy to access resurrection spells. So you go nuclear and kill 15 skeletons. Oh well...

I assume you mean 'cantrip'. Anyway, trust me - it does matter.

Restoring wounds is useful, but becomes a problem when you have multiple characters in need of healing (e.g. when you're in combat). Then, miscasts really matter because now you have a wounded wizard, and have probably lost most of your remaining power dice (so, in all likelihood, no more healing).

Similarly, it'll still take a couple of turns of casting to regrow those 15 skeletons. Again, all well and good if you were out of combat, but what about if you were in combat? Suddenly, instead of adding ~7 skeletons to a dwindling unit, you've actually lost 8. Considering how crippling Unstable is this edition, that sort of thing can really hurt you.


This is counteracted a bit by the heightened danger that losing spell levels or being sucked into the warp poses for a vampire counts player, but really I'd say lore of the vampires is actually one of the safest lores to use.

Whilst I get what you mean, how dangerous are the other lores? I mean, I can recall maybe one game where a wizard has actually died due to miscast wounds - usually the only results that really kill the wizard are Dimensional Cascade and Power Drain (I know the latter doesn't exactly kill him, but it often makes him close to worthless). Otherwise, the loss of power dice is usually far worse than the wounds sustained - since most wizards never see combat (if they do, the game is probably over), and so rarely have to worry about wounds outside of miscasts.

SpanielBear
03-06-2014, 17:36
The damage a miscast does isn't so much a problem for a wizard as it is for his bunker. Hence why I think lore of vampires is useful- losing a few mates won't bother him at all. A Spell weaver in a unit of Glade-Guard though...

Also, while you are right that the lore of vampires does have the limits you describe, bear in mind that none of the lores bar life receive them at all. Yeah you may only heal a couple of wounds, but that metal-Mage is getting nada.

Phazael
03-06-2014, 17:46
I have often skipped late game magic phases (or turn one if my range is limited), because the small chance of nuking my own guys was not worth it. It is very much a situational thing, but I have seen games where one guy had the win and tried to stick the boot by piling on magic, only to nuke his own army and lose the game. So, it is something I am very conscious of, particularly in my cacobomb army where I routinely drop 6 dice casts.

Sexiest_hero
03-06-2014, 20:18
Ruby ring of Ruin, I never waste dice, so I always bring an Bound item to chuck dice at. Fireball FIREball, FIREBALL!

Clockwork
03-06-2014, 21:40
Not quite 'skipping,' but I am increasingly finding that I'm taking low level wizards and just throwing all my dice up to 6 at one particular spell each phase that I want (Comet, Bastiladon, Doombolt, Soulblight, etc), rather than trying to trick out a trickle. The same strategy isn't proving that disadvantageous on defence, either, when the opponent will usually have one particular spell they want and either 6 dice it and IF (in which case I can't do anything about it), or don't and I 6 dice to dispel. Turns out, this Level 4 mandatory business is overrated.

Adohi-Tehe
04-06-2014, 02:39
If the big spells were bonked on the head with the nerf bat, all would be well in the land.

I feel that Fiery Convocation strikes the right balance as an uber spell and is perhaps what we can look to as an example of future uber spells. I.e. hitting all models, some sort of save allowed, reasonable cost/reward.

Lord Dan
04-06-2014, 03:42
I feel that Fiery Convocation strikes the right balance as an uber spell and is perhaps what we can look to as an example of future uber spells. I.e. hitting all models, some sort of save allowed, reasonable cost/reward.

And, as has been mentioned in other threads, inflicts a single wound vs. removing a model. Fiery Convocation is quite balanced as-is.

Adohi-Tehe
04-06-2014, 05:05
And, as has been mentioned in other threads, inflicts a single wound vs. removing a model. Fiery Convocation is quite balanced as-is.

Yes, that too :p.

More reliable dice generation would also lead to more consistent magic phases. I have a feeling based on the changes in the updated books that channelling dice may become more relevant in the next edition and that it could be tied to wizard level some how.