PDA

View Full Version : Options for K'daii



Alltaken
04-06-2014, 04:29
Hi guys, I'm planning ahead for my CD long term proyect.

At the moment I'm considering a Stonehorn or 40k Maulerfiend for the K'daii, what do you guys think about it? I would like to hear your opinions to make a choice

Ayin
04-06-2014, 05:13
From my memory, the Destroyers are said to look like many different things, depending on the one who made them, from rampaging bulls to other forms? The Maulerfiend, if just painted differently/not 40k, would certainly seem to be a reasonable replacement. If I were going to try my hand at it, I'd go for hooves (on the back feet at least) and a more bullish head, with hors, as well as using green-stuff to texture the body to look like cracked stone/lava on the larger, flat plates.

dooms33ker
04-06-2014, 06:08
Hi guys, I'm planning ahead for my CD long term proyect.

At the moment I'm considering a Stonehorn or 40k Maulerfiend for the K'daii, what do you guys think about it? I would like to hear your opinions to make a choice

I have a converted Stonehorn as mine, but if I were to make another I'd probably use a Beastmen Ghorgon. You know, coming to think of it, a Jabberslythe could also make an excellent base for conversion, and it would actually see the tabletop each and every single game. Amazing!

GrandmasterWang
04-06-2014, 06:38
Stonehorn is a good choice due to its base size. Imo a Ghorgon, mauler and Jabber are too small.

Standing my Ghorgon nezt to my Stonehorn the Ghorgon towers over it however the Stonehorn is a lot more chunky.

Last time I used the Kdai (due to its brokenness I rarely field it) I used my Land Squid (Watcher in the water)

http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p531/ChungEssence/Mobile%20Uploads/20140603_215953.jpg (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/ChungEssence/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140603_215953.jpg.html)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Urgat
04-06-2014, 10:12
What base does the destroyer use, btw? I got to convert one too.

Evil_D185
04-06-2014, 13:01
What base does the destroyer use, btw? I got to convert one too.


150x100mm The very large monster base

tenebre
04-06-2014, 13:19
Last time I used the Kdai (due to its brokenness I rarely field it)



always confused why its considered broken... 1 or 2 cannons kill it right off the bat. which always happens in our games.

Ayin
04-06-2014, 14:00
always confused why its considered broken... 1 or 2 cannons kill it right off the bat. which always happens in our games.

With 6 wounds and a 4+ Ward Save, and forcing the opponent to re-roll successful wound rolls (or -1 to wound, either way) it's about as resilient as a monster can possibly be about cannons. Two cannons should, if nothing else, see one of their shots saved, and the second shot would then have a 1/6 chance to kill it outright, less actually when the wounding is included. Not to doubt your memory, but I doubt that's an accurate representation.

That said, I agree it's not broken. It's very powerful, and it pays the points to be that powerful. It's also not supported by any really good combinations, magic or anything of the sort, and has a built in weakness that can be exploited by magic.

MOMUS
04-06-2014, 14:43
I used the warp fire dragon as my destroyer, although I nearly went with the fire elemental from FW.

The bearded one
04-06-2014, 14:54
Build it out of the material manifestation of your opponents' contempt and hatred :)

Snake1311
04-06-2014, 14:55
always confused why its considered broken... 1 or 2 cannons kill it right off the bat. which always happens in our games.

They kill it because its broken, and its not right off the bat. In every other artillery-on-both-sides matchup you go for opposing warmachines first, but the K'daai will make you cry if you don't down it in time.

Bladelord
04-06-2014, 15:17
I can really see a maulerfiend as a K'daii Destroyer & with the right colourscheme/some conversions a stonehorn would be sick as a K'daii Destroyer.

Have you thought about using the Balrog from Lotr?

DruidNei
04-06-2014, 15:34
Check out Infernal Golem from this kickstarter if the model doesn't have to be from GW:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1693348960/metal-beards-tabletop-dwarf-army
It should make great K'daii once it's finished.

Lots of other dwarfy stuff in there.

Khornies & milk
04-06-2014, 16:21
You could try the Ultraforge Greater War Demon model. I and several other CD gamers use it as a K'daii Destroyer, and it's a great piece of kit

dooms33ker
05-06-2014, 06:00
They kill it because its broken, and its not right off the bat. In every other artillery-on-both-sides matchup you go for opposing warmachines first, but the K'daai will make you cry if you don't down it in time.

I digress, but broken would imply either:

a) the unit/model is a hard counter for many things outside of a few specific situations

or

b) the unit/model is severely under-costed or is allowed in overabundance.

The k'daai destroyer at 162 1/2 skaven slaves is certainly not undercosted and is not fieldable in pairs in all but the largest games, and given its liabilities, namely self-inflicted toughness tests, frenzy, and unstable, it is far from a hard counter in most situations.

And when all is said and done cannons are still quite adept at taking the beast down during the course of a six turn game. I think folks who have faced it and cry murder simply had expectations that monsters which aren't an HPA are just not worth fielding. Truly, the destroyer is quite a different beast to the HPA, even though both are considered standouts among their kind.

Look past the K'daai's stats on face value and analyze its role in the army and its merits stacked against other top tier monsters. The Skaven monstrosity is considerably cheaper, almost as resilient, and has great synergy with the rest of the Skaven battleline; just put it on your flank and away it goes. But because the Destroyer is such a heavy points investment and can melt down in one bad round of combat due to combat resolution, the Chaos Dwarf player has to be very careful how they use it. I've blundered in my first few games with the K'daai because of this exact line of thinking, that it's an invincible pain train, when in practice it is a very good unit that can become a very bad liability if prudent judgement is not exercised.

GrandmasterWang
05-06-2014, 06:51
I digress, but broken would imply either:

a) the unit/model is a hard counter for many things outside of a few specific situations

or

b) the unit/model is severely under-costed or is allowed in overabundance.

The k'daai destroyer at 162 1/2 skaven slaves is certainly not undercosted and is not fieldable in pairs in all but the largest games, and given its liabilities, namely self-inflicted toughness tests, frenzy, and unstable, it is far from a hard counter in most situations.

And when all is said and done cannons are still quite adept at taking the beast down during the course of a six turn game. I think folks who have faced it and cry murder simply had expectations that monsters which aren't an HPA are just not worth fielding. Truly, the destroyer is quite a different beast to the HPA, even though both are considered standouts among their kind.

Look past the K'daai's stats on face value and analyze its role in the army and its merits stacked against other top tier monsters. The Skaven monstrosity is considerably cheaper, almost as resilient, and has great synergy with the rest of the Skaven battleline; just put it on your flank and away it goes. But because the Destroyer is such a heavy points investment and can melt down in one bad round of combat due to combat resolution, the Chaos Dwarf player has to be very careful how they use it. I've blundered in my first few games with the K'daai because of this exact line of thinking, that it's an invincible pain train, when in practice it is a very good unit that can become a very bad liability if prudent judgement is not exercised.

Heh

Both a and b apply to the destroyer.

It is due to the brokenness of the Destroyer that Chaos Dwarfs are banned in several tournaments.

Destroyer is a hard counter to strength 3/4 infantry among other things

It is a lot more resilient than a HPA. Ward save is much better than regen. It is all but impervious to the HPA weakness of flaming. The forced rerolls to wound means that it is 6 times!!! As resilient to strength 4 attacks as the HPA which is op itself. Destroyer also has higher Ws.

Just compare its damage potential and points to that of a Greater Daemon. With the mega base it has its burning ability is huge.

Sure it has counters but that doesn't make it any less OP. The old unkillable pendant lord had counters to.

If your K'daai is crumbling you are playing it wrong or exceptionally unlucky.

Compare it to the Iron Daemon and Seige Giant in the Tamurkhan book for another example of how brutal it is.

It's sole mitigating factor is the burning bright rule giving it a 1/18 chance of losing half its wounds on the first turn.

imo 400 points would be about right for it as is. I have seen my Kdaii take out over 2500 points by itself and survive. .. that example holds as much weight as the one before about it getting 1 shotted by a cannon which is very unlikely.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Urgat
05-06-2014, 08:22
And when all is said and done cannons are still quite adept at taking the beast down during the course of a six turn game.

Sophism. The Destroyer is fast, it'll spend most of the game in melee where cannons can't shoot it. I have a CD army, I plan on playing the destroyer now and then. I've warned my friends it was absurdly powerful and they'd see less of it as my collection grows because it's so sick. You got to be honest with yourself, it's the best monster in the game, and not even the most expensive. It can maul anything but troops immune to fire with ease. It's incredibly hard to kill unless it gets unlucky with its own self-wounding rules (but it has a lot of wounds, it won't nutter itself the way the k'daii fireborn will).
As an occasionnal CD player, I say it plain: it is OP.

dooms33ker
05-06-2014, 11:10
Sophism. The Destroyer is fast, it'll spend most of the game in melee where cannons can't shoot it. I have a CD army, I plan on playing the destroyer now and then. I've warned my friends it was absurdly powerful and they'd see less of it as my collection grows because it's so sick. You got to be honest with yourself, it's the best monster in the game, and not even the most expensive. It can maul anything but troops immune to fire with ease. It's incredibly hard to kill unless it gets unlucky with its own self-wounding rules (but it has a lot of wounds, it won't nutter itself the way the k'daii fireborn will).
As an occasionnal CD player, I say it plain: it is OP.

It isn't sophism. It's my own empirical evidence, coupled with Chaos Dwarf Tournament rankings, both of which show that removing the Destroyer leaves a subpar army reliant on pure gunlines, and removing those, namely the magma cannon, leaves a very poor army indeed. Do you know why Warriors, High Elves, Dark Elves and Skaven consistently do well without having the best monster or warmachine in the game? Because they have a large selection of amazing units that work well together. the BOTWD isn't amazing strictly on its own merits, it is amazing because it synergizes quite well with a number of outstanding units, chiefly White Lions and Swordmasters.

I ask you, what does the destroyer compliment?

liddan
05-06-2014, 12:54
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p749/deagorth/forum1_zpsc3537996.jpg

best k'daii I've seen I think. The paint job and base helps alot :)

Urgat
05-06-2014, 13:46
It isn't sophism. It's my own empirical evidence, coupled with Chaos Dwarf Tournament rankings, both of which show that removing the Destroyer leaves a subpar army reliant on pure gunlines, and removing those, namely the magma cannon, leaves a very poor army indeed. Do you know why Warriors, High Elves, Dark Elves and Skaven consistently do well without having the best monster or warmachine in the game? Because they have a large selection of amazing units that work well together. the BOTWD isn't amazing strictly on its own merits, it is amazing because it synergizes quite well with a number of outstanding units, chiefly White Lions and Swordmasters.

I ask you, what does the destroyer compliment?

I'm not talking about the rest of the army, I'm talking about the destroyer. If you remove the best elements of an army, obviously it'll become less powerful That the rest of said army is lacklustre is irrelevant to the matter. It is pretty obvious that if we came to a point where the destoryer rules/stats were changed, it'd also apply to the rest of the army, so it's besides the point.
To answer your post specifically, though, you said that cannons can easily deal with destroyers on 6 turns, and I said that the destroyer would be in melee more most of these six turns, and this remains true, regardless of how bad/well the rest of the army fares.
As an aside, I don't give a flying kick about tournaments. They're just a den of filth, it's not because someone writes the most aweful list ever that it changes anything to the power level of a particular unit.

The bearded one
05-06-2014, 14:28
Last time I fought an army with a K'Daai destroyer it walzed into my templeguard horde w/scar veteran, and proceeded to mulch virtually the entire unit in 2-3 combat rounds, despite several buffs from the lore of light, without taking more than a single wound himself. The only thing that saved the unit from being wiped out was that the game ended.

A friend is building one out of a stonehorn, working on it gradually over the months, but he has done quite impressive sculpting and scratchbuilding work on him so far, making the stonehorn's silhouette and face look more bull-like and sculpting a chainmail across his body (and then putting plated armour over it).

Alltaken
05-06-2014, 15:19
Thanks for the reply guys! I mentioned those 2 because I've allready seen convertions on both. I'll check the other options.

Also I really like the bullish feel or at least a quadruped for the mini, I think I could pull a minotaur head on the maulerfiend too and green stuff some parts as lava and less mechanism. Though I love the stonehorn convertions I've seen


And Yeah its freaking op, but I generally plan to play them sporadically

From my servoskull

Ramius4
05-06-2014, 16:26
I think I could pull a minotaur head on the maulerfiend too and green stuff some parts as lava and less mechanism.

A Minotaur head might be a little small. Maybe a Cygor head?

Alltaken
05-06-2014, 16:27
A Minotaur head might be a little small. Maybe a Cygor head?

Bingo!

From my servoskull