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Latro_
04-06-2014, 19:41
I'v found a few on a re-read of the book:

If a vehicle is shaken the passengers can now take a ld test to fire normally, if they fail its snap shots like 6th
Also appies to stunned, whereas before stunned meant they could not shoot at all

Characters lost precision (ah IG tank commander it was nice while it lasted)

Template weapons hit d6 troops on open topped vehicles

Walkers got HoW and can overwatch

Any other gems that are not common knowledge / talked about much?

Fox Of 9
04-06-2014, 19:43
What you said.

Some people thinking you roll 2D6 minus 2 for difficult terrain movement (yes I know you do for assault).

The whole debate of are summoned/spawned units scoring thing.

EDIT: the new area terrain rules confuse me a little.. but hey only played like three games of 7th.

David.

Felwether
04-06-2014, 19:45
Flyers with hover no longer have to zoom onto the board. I've gotten a surprising amount of use out of that one.

Also I noticed that units which have gone to ground can be forced to subsequently fall back. Is that new?

Latro_
04-06-2014, 19:58
Another one,

denfensive grenades can now be chucked! at s1, but have blind! Pass an I test or you are WS1 I1! should call em multipurpose grenades cus that (sort of) makes up for the nerf to my poor plague marines poison! they now might fight first in a few assaults!

Lord Damocles
04-06-2014, 20:01
Also I noticed that units which have gone to ground can be forced to subsequently fall back. Is that new?
Not new.
Being pinned or going to ground never stopped you taking morale tests.

MagicHat
04-06-2014, 20:05
If you have an effect that allows you to re-roll a failed roll, but at the same time have an effect that forces you to re-roll a successful roll, you keeps the initial result. (Page 11, for the curios.)

Captain Idaho
04-06-2014, 20:17
Chariot rules.

MajorWesJanson
04-06-2014, 20:35
Sabotaged objectives hit units within 3" of the objective with d6 wounds, rather than the old large blast marker. No more hiding out of range but still close enough to claim.

No more Locked velocity on fliers- Immobilized you roll a d6. 1-2 it crashes, 3+ it is crew stunned instead.

ATSKNF lost the free 3" move

Fox Of 9
04-06-2014, 21:00
ATSKNF lost the free 3" move

But we still consolidate 6" though. Right?

David

MajorWesJanson
04-06-2014, 21:17
But we still consolidate 6" though. Right?

David

Normal units on regroup get 3" consolidate instead of moving and can snapshoot.
ATSKNF they don't get that 3", but instead can move and shoot normally.

Fox Of 9
04-06-2014, 21:37
Normal units on regroup get 3" consolidate instead of moving and can snapshoot.
ATSKNF they don't get that 3", but instead can move and shoot normally.

So it's still one of the better rules in the game.

David.

tiger g
04-06-2014, 21:46
the rules are great fun and give you a great game

totgeboren
04-06-2014, 21:52
Walkers got HoW and can overwatch


Walkers could overwatch in 6th ed too. But the nerf to poison is pretty huge for especially S4 units, but I haven't really seen that mentioned. They now only get a reroll if they would damage on a better roll than their poison roll, not equal or better. So for example the damage output in close combat of Plague Marines (S4) dropped by a third against T4 enemies.

AngryAngel
04-06-2014, 21:53
your mileage may vary

Edit: In response to the great game and fun aspect.

Retrospectus
05-06-2014, 01:01
Template weapons hit d6 troops on open topped vehicles


not mentioned much? someone doesn't know many dark eldar players....

Felwether
05-06-2014, 01:05
your mileage may vary

Edit: In response to the great game and fun aspect.

Let's give it another few weeks eh? ;)

Soss
05-06-2014, 01:05
I was reading today that buildings you purchase are considered units for your army. The first thing I thought of was that they can count towards First Blood. What I haven't looked into is how rules like psychic powers or other things that effect your units might effect these. I have to read into it more.

Marshal
05-06-2014, 01:52
Flyers with hover no longer have to zoom onto the board. I've gotten a surprising amount of use out of that one.


They didn't before either, you got to choose.

Here are my notes from reading the rulebook, not formatted at all, not all are changes, just things to note:

Wounds can be raised above 10 as well as attacks
S or T reduced to 0, model is removed
D66 gets standard definition
When dividing, always round up
Characteristic Tests for whole units: Use the highest characteristic of the unit

Psychic Phase
Can only manifest psychic powers in your turn - no more activating force weapons in opponent's turn
No psychic powers from within transports unless they are witchfire and there is a fire point
Different psychic powers are cumulative: Therefore, multiples of the same are not
Can manifest several witchfire powers per turn, can target multiple enemies with then, does not effect unit shooting/running in any way
Focused Witchfire: Must exceed warp charge cost in order to choose target, otherwise is targetted on closest model in unit

Shooting
Weapons firing different ammo types/fire modes are treated as different weapon names.
A unit cannot elect to fire weapons with the same name at different times
Casualties are based off the closest to the unit, not the model firing
LOS is still based on a model to model basis (If the models firing a weapon cannot see something, it cannot be allocated wounds from that weapon, but is still eligable for other weapons)
Units gone to ground cannot fire overwatch
Overwatch can cause assaulting units to go to ground, the assault automatically fails
Cover saves can be granted from shooting between models, not just if the target is obscured from them now - not if the shot goes over though

Weapons
If a non-vehicle fires ordnance, it cannot fire any other weapon - riptides nova-charging the ion accelerator - not even snap shots!
Bombs - must nominate a model that the unit moved over, not just within the unit it moved over

Assault
Allowed to charge something you cannot hurt
Cannot charge if shooting an Ordnance Weapon - relentless overrides
Cannot charge if unit was a Flying Monstrous Creature which changed flight mode
Overwatch cannot cause pinning checks - you may voluntarily go to ground still
Charge at the speed of the slowest model
Must move into base contact with as many models as possible
Closest to closest - must move the shortest possible distance - cannot avoid terrain
If this model is killed by dangerous terrain, the next closest to closest must be moved
Models must be moved 1 by 1 and end their move within unit coherency of a pervious model that moved
Must try to move into base contact with another model not already in base contact
If no model exists, must try to move into base contact with a model
If no model exists, must try to move within coherency of a model that is in base to base
If not possible, must maintain unit coherency
Must move shortest distance possible for all models - cannot move to avoid terrain - except impassible terrain
Get knocked to I1 for charging through terrain even if target unit is locked in combat unless locked from previous turn, but not if they went to ground
Pile-in moves still trigger dangerous terrain tests
Pile-in moves move the exact same way as charging - must move models that can make base first, then move models that can make 2" of a model in base, then move models that can only make coherency to another model
If after pile-in no model is in base contact, the fight sub-phase ends for that combat, skip to results
Wounds of different strengths go into different pools, along with differing AP's and such
Once a model has been allocated a wound, you must continue to allocate wounds to it until there are no more in the pool to allocate or it's dead
All wounds caused in the Fight sub-phase count for combat res, no matter the source - even if you caused wounds to yourself, they count against you

Multiple Combats
Charging models cannot move into base contact with secondary units UNLESS they cannot make base contact with primary unit
Still must maintain unit coherency at all times of the charge
If a unit charges a unit already in combat from a previous turn through difficult terrain, does not take Initiative penalty

Morale
Fall back at speed of slowest model
Cannot run or turbo-boost
Cannot go to ground or be pinned
Can fire overwatch
When charged, if fail regular Ld test, removed from play after charge moves are made
Takes test only after found to be within charge range
If multiple assaults - test is taken as soon as they are found to be within range, if destroyed, rest of unit moves as if they were not even there

Unit Types
Bikes fire 1 weapon per rider
Artillary must have 1 crew per gun to move - IC's do not count as crew
LOS must be made from both model firing and artillery piece
If artillery goes to ground, only crew benefit - not guns
Guns cannot fire overwatch but crew can
Ignore guns in assault
If forced to flee from combat, may take as many guns with them as crew are remaining, excess guns are lost. If there are guns remaining and enemy gets to make sweeping advance, all models, guns and crew, are automatically removed as if they lost the roll
Jet-packs - can make thrust move even if ran, shot or deepstruck in turn
Normal fallback for jetpacks!
Charge like normal unit of their type
If flying monstous creature deepstrikes, always swooping
Swooping flying monstrous creature never falls back
Grounded test is per phase

Vehicles
Lose hull point and immobilized if fail dangerous terrain test
Vehicle shooting - cover is treated on a weapon by weapon basis, treat each weapon as if it was a separate unit
Barrage weapons must still be in proper weapon arc
Cannot move flat out in same turn as tank shock
If a unit fires at a vehicle in multiple facings, resolve each facing separately
Cover is only taken if 25% of model is obscure from majority of firing models that can hurt the vehicle
Vehicles are WS1 unless immobilized, then WS0
Squadrons
Movement is a model by model basis (can move at different speeds)
Some can move flat out while others shoot
Roll to hit as normal, to pen rolls and damage results done one at a time
Vehicles explode - damage to passengers randomly determined
Other damage (besides wrecked), passengers take Ld test, if passed, act normally, if failed, can only snapshot
Flyers which come back on the board from ongoing reserves must zoom on
Chariots - CC - all attacks are allocated against either the chariot or the rider, cannot split attacks
Walkers cannot run if stunned
Walkers have 360 degree overwatch, unless immobilized
Cannot pivot in shooting phase anymore
Immobilized walkers are always struck against their rear armour
Walkers gain an additional attack for each weapon after the first
Walkers cannot death or glory if rammed
Characters
Must move into base contact as soon as they're able to in assault
Terrain
Behind difficult terrain - 5+ cover

Special rules
Counter Attack: No more Ld test, just needs 1 model in unit for whole unit to benefit
Crusader: Just needs 1 model in unit
D weapons: Assume it's S10 for instant death
Get's Hot: BS6+ can reroll gets hot for blasts
Jink: decide to use before to hit rolls are made
Skilled Rider: +1 to jink save only for cover
Split Fire: No Ld test needed
Template Weapons: No Escape: Does D6 hits at normal S and Ap to units within open topped vehicles or in buildings with fire points
Vector Dancer: If using second pivot: cannot go flat out
Sniper: No more pinning tests!
Grenades: Defensive can be thrown with an 8" range, Small Blast, S1, causes Blind

NurglesRot
05-06-2014, 03:54
Correct me if I'm wrong, but defensive grenades also no longer give the Stealth bonus when shooting is done within 8"

Wow, I missed the poison attacks nerf - good catch

Losing Command
05-06-2014, 05:04
Is the Independent characters with infiltrate joining units issue clearer to anybody ? I'm still confused, IC and special rules says that if SR mentions it it is shared, giving Stubborn as example. Which is "if one model in the unit has this special rule ..." just like Infiltrate. IC not being allowed to join infiltrating units when they don't have it themselves is still in, but nothing on character having it but unit not is mentioned. IC joining units during deployment is by deploying it with the unit in coherency ...

Souljacker
05-06-2014, 06:40
Move Through Cover now affects Charge moves. (Ignore the -2 range penalty for difficult terrain)

Geep
05-06-2014, 07:20
I'm pretty sure ramming has changed a lot- speed of the vehicles means nothing now, and skimmers don't get a save to avoid it.

lethlis
05-06-2014, 07:53
Nice catch on the vehicle facings as well as weapons being resolved individually. I really need to sit down and go through it page by page.

Slayer-Fan123
05-06-2014, 10:03
The Psychic Phase really isn't as broken as part of this forum would like you to believe?

Mozzamanx
05-06-2014, 10:48
According to the Dark Millennium timeline, absolutely nothing happened anywhere in the galaxy between M34 and M41. Guess the Age of Apostasy is not worth talking about anymore. :p

Mauler
05-06-2014, 12:07
ICs without Infiltrate can't join infiltrating units. Not that they could anyway but now it's there in black and white.

Patriarch
05-06-2014, 12:46
Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures can now be targetted by blasts and templates if the shooter has skyfire. Zooming Flyers still can't be targetted by these weapons though...

No limit on the number of missiles a flyer can shoot at once.

Psykers in vehicles can't cast blessings.

Inquisitor Kallus
05-06-2014, 13:26
You can now deepstrike and cast maledictions and the like on the same turn when previously you couldn't?

NazaryleLordofFate
05-06-2014, 13:31
Can a ic character with infiltrate pass it onto his unit now?

Mauler
05-06-2014, 14:16
Can a ic character with infiltrate pass it onto his unit now?

No. The IC rules state that an IC can only be joined to a unit by being deployed in coherency with it. For that to happen the unit has the be deployed to the table before the IC. If the unit doesn't have infiltrate then it can't be deployed into an infiltrating position for the IC to join.

And ICs can't join a MC unless specifically stated (nice one Tyrant Guard, unlucky Riptides!).

Gimp
05-06-2014, 14:48
Cant wait to get into 7th edition having read all this.

Marshal
05-06-2014, 16:02
And ICs can't join a MC unless specifically stated (nice one Tyrant Guard, unlucky Riptides!).

IC's can't join MC's, but MC IC's can join regular squads, so someone like O'vesa can join a regular unit, but another IC couldn't join him or any other riptide for that matter.

Charistoph
05-06-2014, 16:11
Is the Independent characters with infiltrate joining units issue clearer to anybody ? I'm still confused, IC and special rules says that if SR mentions it it is shared, giving Stubborn as example. Which is "if one model in the unit has this special rule ..." just like Infiltrate. IC not being allowed to join infiltrating units when they don't have it themselves is still in, but nothing on character having it but unit not is mentioned. IC joining units during deployment is by deploying it with the unit in coherency ...

It's a question of timing. A non-Infiltrate unit must be deployed before any Infiltrate units. So the unit must be on the board before the IC can.


Nice catch on the vehicle facings as well as weapons being resolved individually. I really need to sit down and go through it page by page.

Vehicle facings being separate was in 6th Edition, too.


ICs without Infiltrate can't join infiltrating units. Not that they could anyway but now it's there in black and white.

It was in 6th, too, under the rules for Infiltrate. They just moved it to Independent Characters this edition.

OuroborosTriumphant
05-06-2014, 16:21
According to the Dark Millennium timeline, absolutely nothing happened anywhere in the galaxy between M34 and M41. Guess the Age of Apostasy is not worth talking about anymore. :p

Apparently, that gap is only in the printed version, not in the iBook or the Ebook

Mauler
05-06-2014, 16:31
IC's can't join MC's, but MC IC's can join regular squads, so someone like O'vesa can join a regular unit, but another IC couldn't join him or any other riptide for that matter.

That is still open for debate. The Tyranid Shieldwall special rule implies that is not the case: "A single Hive Tyrant (or the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an Independent Character."

It's not clear if this is there because, bafflingly, Tyrants and the Swarmlord are (Characters) and not (Independent Characters) or as an exception to a MC being able to join a unit as most are (C) and not (IC). I'm kinda with you and am leaning towards the former, but...FAQ plx!


It was in 6th, too, under the rules for Infiltrate. They just moved it to Independent Characters this edition.

We both know that, but there was plenty of agg somehow still surrounding that getting overlooked. ;)

gitburna
05-06-2014, 16:54
The biggest change i've noticed is that the buildings we used to use don't seem to have rules any more. There are rules for buildings saying "the rules will be on the dataslate" but i can't find actual rules for different types of buildings any more - i suppose i'll end up having to count them as actual bunkers/fortifications now rather than pieces of scenery.

Also, where are the rules for woods ?

Mauler
05-06-2014, 18:01
The biggest change i've noticed is that the buildings we used to use don't seem to have rules any more. There are rules for buildings saying "the rules will be on the dataslate" but i can't find actual rules for different types of buildings any more - i suppose i'll end up having to count them as actual bunkers/fortifications now rather than pieces of scenery.

Also, where are the rules for woods ?

The rules for specific buildings are included with the models themselves (I think?), in the Battlefield Terrain section and are in Stronghold Assault. So much for people predicting that and Escalation being useless. Heh.

A wood is now referred to as a Twisted Copse. Rules are pretty simple; difficult terrain & 5+ cover for units within.

Felwether
05-06-2014, 18:03
The Battlefield Terrain section also includes rules for generic ruins too.

Marshal
05-06-2014, 20:52
That is still open for debate. The Tyranid Shieldwall special rule implies that is not the case: "A single Hive Tyrant (or the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an Independent Character."

It's not clear if this is there because, bafflingly, Tyrants and the Swarmlord are (Characters) and not (Independent Characters) or as an exception to a MC being able to join a unit as most are (C) and not (IC). I'm kinda with you and am leaning towards the former, but...FAQ plx!


Not sure where the confusion is to be honest, it's because Tyrants and the Swarmlord are not Independent Characters and are barred from joining other units such as a unit of termagaunts which would honestly make for a far better shield for them than the guard (or in the case of Flyrants, units of Gargoyles). Without the Shieldwall rule, they wouldn't be allowed to join the guard units. What it does do though is makes is so Tyranid Primes can no longer join into those units (unless the Tyrant isn't there), or into units of Carnifexes now.

That being said though, Monstrous Creatures which are IC's (currently only 1 in the game, O'vesa) are still barred from joining other Monstrous Creature units, but there is nothing in the rules which bars them from joining other units of non-monstrous creatures. However, other IC's would be barred from joining that unit though or even the MC IC for that matter as the MC is still present.

(Riptides, Carnifexes and Tyrant Guard with an attached Tyrant are the only situations I can think of which an IC was allowed to join a unit with a MC in it before)

Fox Of 9
05-06-2014, 21:02
So I've been reading the e-book version and cant find where/if it says MC ignore armour saves. Anyone able to find the page reference or is that no longer a thing?


David.

Theocracity
05-06-2014, 21:03
So I've been reading the e-book version and cant find where/if it says MC ignore armour saves. Anyone able to find the page reference or is that no longer a thing?


David.

Isn't that part of Smash?

Fox Of 9
05-06-2014, 21:11
Yeah but that would mean they only have the possibility to ignore 1 armour save.. which sucks.. thought they where always Ap1 or something in close combat otherwise some/a lot of stuff makes less sense.

David.

Ssilmath
05-06-2014, 21:15
Yeah but that would mean they only have the possibility to ignore 1 armour save.. which sucks.. thought they where always Ap1 or something in close combat otherwise some/a lot of stuff makes less sense.

David.

Read the rule for Smash again.

Fox Of 9
05-06-2014, 21:25
Read the rule for Smash again.

Just did. Feeling silly.

EDIT: not the easiest thing to find..


David.

Ssilmath
05-06-2014, 21:29
Just did. Feeling silly.

David.

Don't feel silly, it's pretty easy to overlook things in print format.

Axel
05-06-2014, 21:56
Artillery can now move and then shoot or run.
Admittedly shooting will be snapshots for heavies, and none at all for blast, but the alternative of running may come in handy.

shagah
06-06-2014, 04:23
The +1 to cover saves for vehicles if shooting at the facing that you are not in the arc for, due to the facing arc you are in is LOS blocked. Not explained well here, but done well in the book with an example (a Rhino ends up with a 3+ cover save).

MajorWesJanson
06-06-2014, 04:40
The +1 to cover saves for vehicles if shooting at the facing that you are not in the arc for, due to the facing arc you are in is LOS blocked. Not explained well here, but done well in the book with an example (a Rhino ends up with a 3+ cover save).

That was in 6th too. Same exact picture IIRC.

Just a side note, but anyone else see "Invisibility" in various threads and now read it as "Invincibility"?

shagah
06-06-2014, 04:52
That was in 6th too. Same exact picture IIRC.

Just a side note, but anyone else see "Invisibility" in various threads and now read it as "Invincibility"?

... well that's embarrassing, mind you one the army's I play a lot (both with and against) is my friends Plague Marines and none in our group ever noticed that the Poison gave re-roles against equal and lesser strength opponents until I saw all the comments on how it has been "nerfed" in this edition. We're all talking about how cool it is we now get re-rolls for anything!

Damocles8
06-06-2014, 06:22
That's even more depressing about vehicles not being able to shoot other weapons if they fire ordnance.....make the Leman Russ even worse....thanks GW.

Stormxlr
06-06-2014, 06:27
That's even more depressing about vehicles not being able to shoot other weapons if they fire ordnance.....make the Leman Russ even worse....thanks GW.

I am pretty sure that rule was in 6th aswell.

Sent from my XT928 using Tapatalk

NemoSD
06-06-2014, 07:12
I am pretty sure that rule was in 6th aswell.

Sent from my XT928 using Tapatalk

The Leman Russ and 'even worse' should never be uttered. It does make the Battle Cannon less of a no brainier choice. The battle cannon still is one of the most powerful and versatile guns in the game. Murders marines, is a reliable tank hunter, and has MASSIVE range. It just no longer needs sponsons... of course mine still has sponsons. Flamers to be exact, for when the enemy get to close for me to risk a battle cannon, and a hull mounted bolter.

Also consider other amazing guns... the autocannon varient is a murderer that gets overlooked, the new price of the eradicator makes it a very sexy non-ordinance option. AP4 and no cover means Tau, Eldar, Guard, Dark Eldar, Nids, and Daemons got something to worry about, all Power Armor armies brush off the Eradicator... except it is still a high strength large blast capable of delivering wounds with surprisingly high returns.

The Russ is not worse. It is still the best main-battle tank in the game, in my opinion, it just doesn't have a no-brainer, undercosted for effect, option anymore.

And yes, this 'problem' came from 6th.

tneva82
06-06-2014, 07:19
The Leman Russ and 'even worse' should never be uttered. It does make the Battle Cannon less of a no brainier choice. The battle cannon still is one of the most powerful and versatile guns in the game. Murders marines, is a reliable tank hunter, and has MASSIVE range. It just no longer needs sponsons... of course mine still has sponsons. Flamers to be exact, for when the enemy get to close for me to risk a battle cannon, and a hull mounted bolter.

General consensus actually is that basic leman russ and demolisher AREN'T that hot. There's other variants that can use sponsons and as such tends to be better. As it is many competive AM lists don't field russes as 6th and 7th editions aren't exactly hot for vechiles editions.

As it is it's now utterly pointless on adding any weapons to ordnance russes period. Which is annoying as they look better with sponsons and adds extra fun in assembly stage as you need to magnetize sponsons.

NemoSD
06-06-2014, 07:29
General consensus actually is that basic leman russ and demolisher AREN'T that hot. There's other variants that can use sponsons and as such tends to be better. As it is many competive AM lists don't field russes as 6th and 7th editions aren't exactly hot for vechiles editions.

As it is it's now utterly pointless on adding any weapons to ordnance russes period. Which is annoying as they look better with sponsons and adds extra fun in assembly stage as you need to magnetize sponsons.

I field 3 Russ Tanks every time. Yes I do avoid ordinance, unless I can't afford Sponsons anyways. I use a Tank Commander with Punisher or Vanquisher depending on mood, and then Eradicators. Eradicators plus Plasma Sponsons, or Bolter/Melta if I am feeling less like gambling. I normally run the Plasma anyways.

Most armies have trouble doing anything to my tanks before they do some serious damage, and camo net, plus the fire and screen order from the Tank Commander keeps them relatively safe as most of the ignores cover weapons can not harm a Russ's front or side armor.

When you use light tanks in support, hellhounds, devildogs, sentinels, and chimeras, the Russ's are even more safe, as people will often target the easier to kill tank. I agree that a lone Russ is probably dead though, but in a list with support from light armor, infantry, air support, and a player who knows how to use a combined arms force well, (They are harder to use because they often have to be doing four or five things at once.) the Russ is king.

(Throw in some allied Predators for 'real' support light tanks, and you have a well balanced armored force.)

madden
06-06-2014, 07:29
Walkers no longer have 360 vision and are restricted to 45 fire angle for there guns. So no more rotating there torsos to shoot, this is huge for titans and knights as they can shoot diffrent targets with there guns but now only if there in the right facing.

AngryAngel
06-06-2014, 07:45
General consensus actually is that basic leman russ and demolisher AREN'T that hot. There's other variants that can use sponsons and as such tends to be better. As it is many competive AM lists don't field russes as 6th and 7th editions aren't exactly hot for vechiles editions.

As it is it's now utterly pointless on adding any weapons to ordnance russes period. Which is annoying as they look better with sponsons and adds extra fun in assembly stage as you need to magnetize sponsons.

I can't believe your speaking all this logic !! Yes, the main battle tank is left to kind of run middle of the road for the Russ this edition. As the cost stayed the same, and the demolisher went up 5 points. All the other variants went down in points, enough so they may end up better choices when given a choice by cost per use. There is no reason the Leman Russ Main battle tank should cost the same points now, it did in 5th. When in 5th, it was tougher and coupled with the Lumbering Behemoth rule that allowed it to fire sponsons as well.

I'm sure one day it will be back up top. Most of those saying no matter what it is the best Russ variant, at least whom I've spoken to, are just afraid of that 8 3 large blast, but don't actually use them.

Edit: I will also say, its shocking just how much people think is " New " in this edition, that has been there since 6th. Just goes to show you how well people knew those rules, as well as how long they were around to be known. ( The rules, not the people. )

Erorior
06-06-2014, 08:23
Can anyone find the rules for how blasts and barrages are resolved against a unit on multiple floors of a ruin (or similiar terrain)? I can't find any of the old references that you choose which floor you are trying to hit or that barrages hit the floor where the hole of the blasts lands on.

lethlis
06-06-2014, 10:44
Not as good as it once once =/ bad. It just has a fixed role now and is dealing with some competition. It is still a good tank.

tneva82
06-06-2014, 11:01
I field 3 Russ Tanks every time. Yes I do avoid ordinance, unless I can't afford Sponsons anyways. I use a Tank Commander with Punisher or Vanquisher depending on mood, and then Eradicators. Eradicators plus Plasma Sponsons, or Bolter/Melta if I am feeling less like gambling. I normally run the Plasma anyways.

Lol. So you TOO avoid ordnance. And yet it's okay that ordnance variants were royally screwed when they got nerffed in 6th ed.

Funny how you first say it's okay that they can't fire rest of weapons and then admit yourself that you don't use the ordnance tanks. Now wonder why is that...

Maybe because the ordnance variants are plain lousy for the point costs?

Rest of the variants got major price drops, sometimes even boost in performancy. No wonder those get used over ordnance versions.

But would it be too much to ask for some use for ordnance variants...Also in current 40k normal battle cannon isn't even that hot weapon anymore. Not like in 2nd and 3rd ed where it was fearsome. Now it's nowhere near as scary as it used to be.

tneva82
06-06-2014, 11:03
I can't believe your speaking all this logic !! Yes, the main battle tank is left to kind of run middle of the road for the Russ this edition. As the cost stayed the same, and the demolisher went up 5 points. All the other variants went down in points, enough so they may end up better choices when given a choice by cost per use. There is no reason the Leman Russ Main battle tank should cost the same points now, it did in 5th. When in 5th, it was tougher and coupled with the Lumbering Behemoth rule that allowed it to fire sponsons as well.

Well it costs and isn't going to be changed for 3-4 years likely.

AM players were hoping heavy vechiles to gain back ability they had before to give basic(the iconic versions as well) ordnance variants some tooth again. And these days their guns aren't even that impressive anymore considering what sort of weapons there are available.

tneva82
06-06-2014, 11:04
Not as good as it once once =/ bad. It just has a fixed role now and is dealing with some competition. It is still a good tank.

AM has generally better weapons to deal with competition than basic russ. Including other cheaper russ variants...

Rick_1138
06-06-2014, 11:19
Regarding IC's and infiltrate, I am still trying to work out the situation wit Shrike.

His special rule is See, But remain unseen. Which means he stealth and infiltrate. He can only join squads of Jump infantry, specifically before deployment. This should mean that the assault squad gets stealth and infiltrate also, as you can only use infiltrate at the start of the game as the last deployment process.

Surely this is correct as Shrike's whole thing is jump troops and being all sneaky n such.

I hae elder with striking scorpions and Kharandras, and as both untis have infiltrate, this isn't an issue, but with Shrike, because he can ONLY join jump infantry, and has Infiltrate and stealth, so its not like he is joining a unit of infiltrators.

A bit of a badly worded special rule and could really have done with a quick line to state he ether does or does not give infiltrate to the jump troops he joins before deployment.

Mauler
06-06-2014, 12:02
Can anyone find the rules for how blasts and barrages are resolved against a unit on multiple floors of a ruin (or similiar terrain)? I can't find any of the old references that you choose which floor you are trying to hit or that barrages hit the floor where the hole of the blasts lands on.

Aye, I can't find them in the core rules or Stronghold Assault. I play them the same way as 6th: blasts only hit the level they're fired at and barrages always hit the top level from above.



Regarding IC's and infiltrate, I am still trying to work out the situation wit Shrike.

His special rule is See, But remain unseen. Which means he stealth and infiltrate. He can only join squads of Jump infantry, specifically before deployment. This should mean that the assault squad gets stealth and infiltrate also, as you can only use infiltrate at the start of the game as the last deployment process.

Surely this is correct as Shrike's whole thing is jump troops and being all sneaky n such.

I hae elder with striking scorpions and Kharandras, and as both untis have infiltrate, this isn't an issue, but with Shrike, because he can ONLY join jump infantry, and has Infiltrate and stealth, so its not like he is joining a unit of infiltrators.

A bit of a badly worded special rule and could really have done with a quick line to state he ether does or does not give infiltrate to the jump troops he joins before deployment.

The way I interpret that rule is that Shrike joins the unit before deployment, not during deployment like normal ICs. Because he is part of that unit when deploying, his Infiltrate USR is conferred to the whole unit as per the Infiltrate USR's second paragraph (or first paragraph of actual rules) and they can all be deployed as infiltrators.

Mauler
06-06-2014, 13:12
Not sure where the confusion is to be honest, it's because Tyrants and the Swarmlord are not Independent Characters and are barred from joining other units such as a unit of termagaunts which would honestly make for a far better shield for them than the guard (or in the case of Flyrants, units of Gargoyles). Without the Shieldwall rule, they wouldn't be allowed to join the guard units. What it does do though is makes is so Tyranid Primes can no longer join into those units (unless the Tyrant isn't there), or into units of Carnifexes now.

That being said though, Monstrous Creatures which are IC's (currently only 1 in the game, O'vesa) are still barred from joining other Monstrous Creature units, but there is nothing in the rules which bars them from joining other units of non-monstrous creatures. However, other IC's would be barred from joining that unit though or even the MC IC for that matter as the MC is still present.

(Riptides, Carnifexes and Tyrant Guard with an attached Tyrant are the only situations I can think of which an IC was allowed to join a unit with a MC in it before)

Aye, I can't help but wonder if O'Vesa was an oversight and should be a Character like the rest of his XV unit.

Rick_1138
06-06-2014, 13:49
Aye, I can't find them in the core rules or Stronghold Assault. I play them the same way as 6th: blasts only hit the level they're fired at and barrages always hit the top level from above.




The way I interpret that rule is that Shrike joins the unit before deployment, not during deployment like normal ICs. Because he is part of that unit when deploying, his Infiltrate USR is conferred to the whole unit as per the Infiltrate USR's second paragraph (or first paragraph of actual rules) and they can all be deployed as infiltrators.

Yeah, that is how I read it too, he confers BEFORE deployment, as its kind of his thing.

Although Raptor tactics and Lias Issodon with infiltrating centurions is my current bag (Master Of Ambush in 7th ed is fun!)

Charistoph
06-06-2014, 16:17
Regarding IC's and infiltrate, I am still trying to work out the situation wit Shrike.

His special rule is See, But remain unseen. Which means he stealth and infiltrate. He can only join squads of Jump infantry, specifically before deployment. This should mean that the assault squad gets stealth and infiltrate also, as you can only use infiltrate at the start of the game as the last deployment process.

Surely this is correct as Shrike's whole thing is jump troops and being all sneaky n such.

I hae elder with striking scorpions and Kharandras, and as both untis have infiltrate, this isn't an issue, but with Shrike, because he can ONLY join jump infantry, and has Infiltrate and stealth, so its not like he is joining a unit of infiltrators.

A bit of a badly worded special rule and could really have done with a quick line to state he ether does or does not give infiltrate to the jump troops he joins before deployment.

It's badly worded when you don't quote it properly. His rule states that he may only join Jump Infantry before deploying, not deployment. Deploying is the act of putting a unit on the board. Deployment is the phase before the first turn. And since there isn't explicit permission to do otherwise, Shrike as an IC may only join units by deploying in coherency with them or by joining them in Reserves. Since Reserves is the only time an IC may join a unit before deploying, then it only deals with his Reserve designations.

NemoSD
06-06-2014, 17:39
Lol. So you TOO avoid ordnance. And yet it's okay that ordnance variants were royally screwed when they got nerffed in 6th ed.

Funny how you first say it's okay that they can't fire rest of weapons and then admit yourself that you don't use the ordnance tanks. Now wonder why is that...

Maybe because the ordnance variants are plain lousy for the point costs?

Rest of the variants got major price drops, sometimes even boost in performancy. No wonder those get used over ordnance versions.

But would it be too much to ask for some use for ordnance variants...Also in current 40k normal battle cannon isn't even that hot weapon anymore. Not like in 2nd and 3rd ed where it was fearsome. Now it's nowhere near as scary as it used to be.

I am running what I run right now because of the need to Squadron a tank commander. It is 480 points with stock Punisher, and Eradicators plus Pask. (Three tanks.) You really need three tanks to get the most out of the Tank Commander/Pask. Squadroned tanks do lose versitility, and I have found my sponsons don't actually come into play as often when I have three big guns to use already. So I run what I run to keep the price down so that I can squeeze in guns elsewhere.

I want to point out that I never said the Battle Cannon was perfect, but that it is still one of the best guns in the game. Best Gun does not mean optimum for a tank squadron. To me, the battle cannon is for a tank that slides up into a well covered spot, sits behind camo nets, hull down, and just blasts the otherside of the table. My Tank Commander squadron is an advance and shoot formation, and thus favors other guns.

Royals
06-06-2014, 17:50
I want to point out that I never said the Battle Cannon was perfect, but that it is still one of the best guns in the game. Best Gun does not mean optimum for a tank squadron. To me, the battle cannon is for a tank that slides up into a well covered spot, sits behind camo nets, hull down, and just blasts the otherside of the table. My Tank Commander squadron is an advance and shoot formation, and thus favors other guns.

This is, in my opinion, how AMIGos, and by extension their tanks, should be played. The Leman Russ with a Battle Cannon is a fearsome beast. Sitting in the corner in cover with camo nets, it can blast all manner of infantry and is a major threat to most call enemy ground forces. Even TEq have to be worried as you'll be forcing a lot of saves that cause ID.

This is something I posted in the rules section. It appears that transports can score, units in transports can score, transports with troops in a Battle Forged army effectively have Objective Secured, and dedicated transports chose for troops in a Battle Forged army have Objective Secured.

Enjoy you mechanized infantry lists once again.

AngryAngel
06-06-2014, 19:35
Not as good as it once once =/ bad. It just has a fixed role now and is dealing with some competition. It is still a good tank.

It's an ok tank, good it used to be. Ok is as high as I'd rate it at the moment.


Well it costs and isn't going to be changed for 3-4 years likely.

AM players were hoping heavy vechiles to gain back ability they had before to give basic(the iconic versions as well) ordnance variants some tooth again. And these days their guns aren't even that impressive anymore considering what sort of weapons there are available.

That is true, I have no idea why they kept the costs the same without a drive to change how heavy vehicles worked. Perhaps eventually they will, though yes their main guns with the battle cannon and demolisher just aren't as awe inspiring as perhaps they once were.


I am running what I run right now because of the need to Squadron a tank commander. It is 480 points with stock Punisher, and Eradicators plus Pask. (Three tanks.) You really need three tanks to get the most out of the Tank Commander/Pask. Squadroned tanks do lose versitility, and I have found my sponsons don't actually come into play as often when I have three big guns to use already. So I run what I run to keep the price down so that I can squeeze in guns elsewhere.

I want to point out that I never said the Battle Cannon was perfect, but that it is still one of the best guns in the game. Best Gun does not mean optimum for a tank squadron. To me, the battle cannon is for a tank that slides up into a well covered spot, sits behind camo nets, hull down, and just blasts the otherside of the table. My Tank Commander squadron is an advance and shoot formation, and thus favors other guns.

I hear what your saying, but that said the battle cannon and demolisher are meh, no one is saying they are awful just, with their point cost their lacking something. Can they still do things ? Sure can, but just not all that well, and at a stiffer cost then they should be priced at.

NemoSD
06-06-2014, 19:38
It's an ok tank, good it used to be. Ok is as high as I'd rate it at the moment.



That is true, I have no idea why they kept the costs the same without a drive to change how heavy vehicles worked. Perhaps eventually they will, though yes their main guns with the battle cannon and demolisher just aren't as awe inspiring as perhaps they once were.



I hear what your saying, but that said the battle cannon and demolisher are meh, no one is saying they are awful just, with their point cost their lacking something. Can they still do things ? Sure can, but just not all that well, and at a stiffer cost then they should be priced at.

I think 150 is still dirt cheap for a stock Russ...

AngryAngel
06-06-2014, 19:45
I think 150 is still dirt cheap for a stock Russ...

I think 140, is where the sweet spot would be, with the demolisher perhaps at 150 is what I'm feeling.

Fox Of 9
06-06-2014, 20:15
Never really understood why they weren't the same price.. (wait is their armour values different?) as in terms of main weaponry i'd say they're even. One has longer range but less Ap/S while the other is a close range monster but has S10 AP1.. always seem a fair balance in terms of trade off.


David.

gwarsh41
06-06-2014, 20:34
Walkers no longer have 360 vision and are restricted to 45 fire angle for there guns. So no more rotating there torsos to shoot, this is huge for titans and knights as they can shoot diffrent targets with there guns but now only if there in the right facing.

It is a bit more complex. Walkers can make a 45 degree turn in either direction, then the gun has the 45 degree fire angle. It comes out to 67.5 degree arc in one direction.

Charistoph
06-06-2014, 23:45
Chariots can be locked in to combat now...

Minsc
06-06-2014, 23:53
Never really understood why they weren't the same price.. (wait is their armour values different?) as in terms of main weaponry i'd say they're even. One has longer range but less Ap/S while the other is a close range monster but has S10 AP1.. always seem a fair balance in terms of trade off. .

Let's just say that S4 can kill a Leman Russ in close combat, while S4 can't even scrath a Demolisher in close combat. ;)

Also, I feel that this is starting to get offtopic, but I also think that the LR and Demolisher are slightly overpriced. They are not bad tanks, it's just that there are other things in Codex AMIGo that do what they do, but better.

ehlijen
07-06-2014, 02:14
Never really understood why they weren't the same price.. (wait is their armour values different?) as in terms of main weaponry i'd say they're even. One has longer range but less Ap/S while the other is a close range monster but has S10 AP1.. always seem a fair balance in terms of trade off.


David.

Their armour value is different (Demolisher has better rear, and thus CC, armour) but it's also that AP2 vs AP3 is a major step up in damage output, especially with GW taking steps to reduce access to 2+ saves somewhat and generally make AP2 weapons rarer. And to that you add S10, which can ID T5 targets and is actually able to penetrate other russes' front AVs.

I don't get why the demolisher is so much more expensive than some the other variants, but it is the most dangerous to exceptionally high value targets, and that usually means it needs to be expensive in return.

Fox Of 9
07-06-2014, 10:09
Forgot about the ID.. and the armour.. makes sense now..


David.

iNKayGee
08-06-2014, 05:21
Hey since this is a 7th ed thread I have a bit of a 7th ed question. Sorry if its out of place. Where does one find "formations"? There are two in the book and the ultra-smurf box-o-termies-and-tanks is referred to as a formation, but I can't find rules for it. Or any other, except for the two in the book of course. Can anyone help a poor lost Blood Angel?? Thanks!!

lethlis
08-06-2014, 05:43
They are downloads from black library or in the ipad store. Also there are 1-2 in the tempestus book

Stormxlr
08-06-2014, 05:44
Hey since this is a 7th ed thread I have a bit of a 7th ed question. Sorry if its out of place. Where does one find "formations"? There are two in the book and the ultra-smurf box-o-termies-and-tanks is referred to as a formation, but I can't find rules for it. Or any other, except for the two in the book of course. Can anyone help a poor lost Blood Angel?? Thanks!!

So you just take a "formation" of models, similar to apoc formations. They work exactly like an allied detachment except they don't take the allied detachment slot. You can include as many formations as you want as long as they are within the point limit.
Proper rules for formations are included in the dataslates that they come out with.

Sent from my XT928 using Tapatalk

Damocles8
08-06-2014, 05:51
I am pretty sure that rule was in 6th aswell.

Sent from my XT928 using Tapatalk

You could at least snap shot any of the other weapons in 6th, and with the change from Lumbering Behemoth (yay sponsons are useful on ordnance tanks) to heavy vehicles (now they're damn near useless on ordnance tanks) it seems like the stock Leman Russ is getting hit harder and harder every edition.

Ssilmath
08-06-2014, 05:57
Vehicles can still snap shoot their other weapons after firing Ordnance. Page 41 and Page 73.

Geep
08-06-2014, 07:28
The changes to D weapons are pretty big- and much better, in my opinion.
Against vehicles- a roll of 1 does nothing (used to do a penetrating hit), and 2-5 does D3 Hull Points (used to be instant 'Explodes' for regular vehicles, or D3+1 Hull Points on Super Heavies).
Against infantry- a roll of 2-5 is D3 wounds (used to be D3+1). It counts as Str10 for Instant Death though, so there's no more Tyranid Warriors shrugging off D weapon wounds (well, surviving at least) but dying automatically to S8 wounds.

Added to that D weapons no longer ignore all saves, unless a 6 is rolled, and they no longer automatically bypass Feel No Pain, Reanimation Protocols and the like (even on 6's those are still allowed).

(I know everyone's been talking about how cover and invul saves are allowed, but the changes are much bigger than that)

OuroborosTriumphant
08-06-2014, 10:18
The changes to D weapons are pretty big- and much better, in my opinion.
Against vehicles- a roll of 1 does nothing (used to do a penetrating hit), and 2-5 does D3 Hull Points (used to be instant 'Explodes' for regular vehicles, or D3+1 Hull Points on Super Heavies).
Against infantry- a roll of 2-5 is D3 wounds (used to be D3+1). It counts as Str10 for Instant Death though, so there's no more Tyranid Warriors shrugging off D weapon wounds (well, surviving at least) but dying automatically to S8 wounds.

Added to that D weapons no longer ignore all saves, unless a 6 is rolled, and they no longer automatically bypass Feel No Pain, Reanimation Protocols and the like (even on 6's those are still allowed).

(I know everyone's been talking about how cover and invul saves are allowed, but the changes are much bigger than that)

Check Feel No Pain's own rule; can't be taken against Destroyer weapons.

Damocles8
09-06-2014, 00:24
Vehicles can still snap shoot their other weapons after firing Ordnance. Page 41 and Page 73.

Don't have the rulebook, going off of what someone posted in this thread earlier.

Geep
09-06-2014, 04:18
Check Feel No Pain's own rule; can't be taken against Destroyer weapons. Damn. So a 250pt Wraithknight with shield is still tougher than the ~500pt Tyranid Gargantuan Creatures (mostly) :(
Still, I like that D-weapons have lost the worst of their crazy power.

Arijharn
10-06-2014, 13:51
Things I've noticed:

1) Buildings now have Hull Points. I so want to try taking a Bastion, plonk it near the middle of the board and fill it up with Bloodletters for giggles.
2) There are no limitations to flamers only hitting ground or 1 floor above rules anymore. Similarly barrages and blasts don't have anything like above either.

The thing about going above 10 for wounds or attacks is not actually new, it was in 6th ed too. A Bloodthirster could get up to 14 attacks on the charge not including HoW

Happiest change was for chariots now. They're actually useful, especially the Burning Chariot.

druchii
10-06-2014, 15:04
ICs on chariots can join units.

d

lethlis
10-06-2014, 15:56
Things I've noticed:

1) Buildings now have Hull Points. I so want to try taking a Bastion, plonk it near the middle of the board and fill it up with Bloodletters for giggles.
2) There are no limitations to flamers only hitting ground or 1 floor above rules anymore. Similarly barrages and blasts don't have anything like above either.

The thing about going above 10 for wounds or attacks is not actually new, it was in 6th ed too. A Bloodthirster could get up to 14 attacks on the charge not including HoW

Happiest change was for chariots now. They're actually useful, especially the Burning Chariot.

Fortifications are deployed like other parts of your force now, so they need to stay in your deployment zone.

Charistoph
10-06-2014, 16:34
ICs on chariots can join units.

d

Too bad most lose IC by mounting a Chariot.

Also, some Unique Characters lost the ability to take a Chariot...

druchii
10-06-2014, 18:30
Too bad most lose IC by mounting a Chariot.



They do? Which ones?

I'm at work and can't thumb my book, got a page ref?

Thanks!

d

lethlis
10-06-2014, 18:57
PDF for necrons says that basically all the named characters lost their chariot access.

Charistoph
11-06-2014, 00:31
They do? Which ones?

I'm at work and can't thumb my book, got a page ref?

Thanks!

d

The Daemon Heralds through the Errata.

Bergen Beerbelly
11-06-2014, 17:31
This one isn't really a change to the rules, just something I think is odd and makes me wonder what GW is talking about. It is the small picture on page 58 of the rulebook. The thing that doesn't make any sense is that GW says the orks in that picture are destroyed because they cannot fall back 8" without running into impassable terrain or moving to within 1" of an enemy. Then the "impassable terrain is colored red to indicate that they are definitely talking about those two pieces of terrain. The problem is, while the Imperial Bastion is most definitely impassable, the ruin on the left isn't...so what gives?

lethlis
11-06-2014, 17:47
This one isn't really a change to the rules, just something I think is odd and makes me wonder what GW is talking about. It is the small picture on page 58 of the rulebook. The thing that doesn't make any sense is that GW says the orks in that picture are destroyed because they cannot fall back 8" without running into impassable terrain or moving to within 1" of an enemy. Then the "impassable terrain is colored red to indicate that they are definitely talking about those two pieces of terrain. The problem is, while the Imperial Bastion is most definitely impassable, the ruin on the left isn't...so what gives?

They could have declared that ruins impassible at the start of the game like we do.

One of the big things that I dont see people talking about is how easy it is to get cover saves now.

So cover is on a model to model basis. If any of the firing models give the model a cover save, then the model gets it. However since it is weapon by weapon placement of weapons and timing of firing will be key.

All of these little changes have big consequences for firing order and placement. Really like it.

Mauler
11-06-2014, 17:51
This one isn't really a change to the rules, just something I think is odd and makes me wonder what GW is talking about. It is the small picture on page 58 of the rulebook. The thing that doesn't make any sense is that GW says the orks in that picture are destroyed because they cannot fall back 8" without running into impassable terrain or moving to within 1" of an enemy. Then the "impassable terrain is colored red to indicate that they are definitely talking about those two pieces of terrain. The problem is, while the Imperial Bastion is most definitely impassable, the ruin on the left isn't...so what gives?

I'd suggest that the author intended for both pieces of terrain to be impassible to illustrate a point, despite one looking like a ruin which may have an impassible wall on that side and corner? The "shortest possible route" involves moving past the Marines with 1" of room which takes them through that high corner?

Bergen Beerbelly
11-06-2014, 18:01
That makes sense but a rational person would have used two actual pieces of obvious impassable terrain when trying to give such an example in a rulebook......ahh gw, if only you were rational.

AngryAngel
11-06-2014, 22:23
They could have declared that ruins impassible at the start of the game like we do.

One of the big things that I dont see people talking about is how easy it is to get cover saves now.

So cover is on a model to model basis. If any of the firing models give the model a cover save, then the model gets it. However since it is weapon by weapon placement of weapons and timing of firing will be key.

All of these little changes have big consequences for firing order and placement. Really like it.

That was already in 6th edition, as most of these, just noticed revelations are. Yet again, showing how little people understood even 6th before they released 7th.

Captain Idaho
11-06-2014, 22:29
Beam powers are very useful now. Each unit suffers hits equal to the amount of models it has under the line.

Assail is known as an awful power but it actually can produce a lot of hits at S6.

Telekinesis is looking quite effective against those Guard armies. Hit the blobs with Assail, the vehicles with Haywire Malediction and get into position thanks to Levitation. Other powers have their uses against Guard too.

lethlis
11-06-2014, 23:53
That was already in 6th edition, as most of these, just noticed revelations are. Yet again, showing how little people understood even 6th before they released 7th.

I believe it used to be cover from a majority of the unit to get a cover save not just from any one model. Weapon by weapon is also new to this edition so timing for firing within squad is new.

fenrisbrit
12-06-2014, 00:17
I believe it used to be cover from a majority of the unit to get a cover save not just from any one model. Weapon by weapon is also new to this edition so timing for firing within squad is new.

6th Edn was if a target model was in cover from the point of view of at least one firer then that model got a cover save. Majority cover was 5th End IIRC.

lethlis
12-06-2014, 00:30
O well, it happens when you got 4 editions rattling around in your head.

Mauler
12-06-2014, 10:26
That was already in 6th edition, as most of these, just noticed revelations are. Yet again, showing how little people understood even 6th before they released 7th.

No it wasn't. Firing models didn't give cover saves in 6th or 7th; the firing unit can fire through models in their own unit without granting a cover save.

TheBearminator
12-06-2014, 11:41
I'm pretty sure ramming has changed a lot- speed of the vehicles means nothing now, and skimmers don't get a save to avoid it.

Jippie! I hadn't seen that change to skimmers. Finally I can deff rolla wave serpents. Or... Do they get a jink save instead? :)

tneva82
12-06-2014, 12:29
Beam powers are very useful now. Each unit suffers hits equal to the amount of models it has under the line.

Good that they made wording lot clearer. I remember when necron codex was released and people thought doom scythe's beam would hit every model of every unit beam touched due to poor wording.

Geep
12-06-2014, 13:46
Jippie! I hadn't seen that change to skimmers. Finally I can deff rolla wave serpents. Or... Do they get a jink save instead?
Do Deff Rollas allow cover saves? I don't know, but I doubt it- so no jink.

One funny thing- I think someone mentioned it earlier, but it can be expanded on: Vehicle Flyers are immune to all blasts and templates (even Skyfiring ones), but Flying Monstrous Creatures aren't. The only thing saving Flying Monstrous Creatures from blasts and templates is the fact that most blasts and templates can't Skyfire (although some skyfiring templates do exist- most notably from Tau or other Flyers). In addition to this, any blast that scatters onto a Flying Monstrous Creature will hit it, regardless of Skyfire- so long as the FMC wasn't the intended target (causing snap shots only) scattering is free to hurt them.

Mauler
12-06-2014, 14:42
One funny thing- I think someone mentioned it earlier, but it can be expanded on: Vehicle Flyers are immune to all blasts and templates (even Skyfiring ones), but Flying Monstrous Creatures aren't. The only thing saving Flying Monstrous Creatures from blasts and templates is the fact that most blasts and templates can't Skyfire (although some skyfiring templates do exist- most notably from Tau or other Flyers). In addition to this, any blast that scatters onto a Flying Monstrous Creature will hit it, regardless of Skyfire- so long as the FMC wasn't the intended target (causing snap shots only) scattering is free to hurt them.

Aye, that's a really odd discrepancy that I expect to be FAQed. The speeds of zooming and swooping are the same so I expect the same penalties to hit to be applied.

Charistoph
12-06-2014, 16:15
One funny thing- I think someone mentioned it earlier, but it can be expanded on: Vehicle Flyers are immune to all blasts and templates (even Skyfiring ones), but Flying Monstrous Creatures aren't. The only thing saving Flying Monstrous Creatures from blasts and templates is the fact that most blasts and templates can't Skyfire (although some skyfiring templates do exist- most notably from Tau or other Flyers). In addition to this, any blast that scatters onto a Flying Monstrous Creature will hit it, regardless of Skyfire- so long as the FMC wasn't the intended target (causing snap shots only) scattering is free to hurt them.

Or it could be a counter balance for most FMCs not being on a Flying base allowing them to be seen by most units on the table.

Mauler
12-06-2014, 17:55
Or it could be a counter balance for most FMCs not being on a Flying base allowing them to be seen by most units on the table.

I like to think that's what a grounding test is for. Flyers don't take them from their nice lofty stands... ;)

Charistoph
12-06-2014, 18:16
I like to think that's what a grounding test is for. Flyers don't take them from their nice lofty stands... ;)

Nope, they just have a 1/3 chance of Explodes! because they were Immobilized...

Still, I was more just thinking aloud as a possible reason it was excluded. I have no idea if it was actually intended. They copy & pasted soo much and yet, sooo little, from 6th Edition, it makes one wonder.

NemoSD
12-06-2014, 18:34
I like to think that's what a grounding test is for. Flyers don't take them from their nice lofty stands... ;)

My understanding from the powergamers is that a grounding test is desirable now. They want to run their melee FMC as far down the board as they can, and then get it grounded so they can assault with it. If they land, it just gets shot to hell.

(Pissed someone off by refusing to shoot at his FMC. He didn't want to land it, and the swoop was only killing one model a turn. I could eat that. When he did eventually land it, it got blown away. He was so mad, accused me of gaming the system, saying that a reasonable soldier would of shot it down to stop it from killing his buddies.)

Charistoph
12-06-2014, 18:55
(Pissed someone off by refusing to shoot at his FMC. He didn't want to land it, and the swoop was only killing one model a turn. I could eat that. When he did eventually land it, it got blown away. He was so mad, accused me of gaming the system, saying that a reasonable soldier would of shot it down to stop it from killing his buddies.)

A reasonable soldier would understand the mechanics of his universe to sufficiently take advantage of little odd physics such as that. :evilgrin:

lethlis
12-06-2014, 18:56
That is a risky strategy because if they manage to ground him in the psy or movement phase thats bad news bears.

Theocracity
12-06-2014, 19:04
My understanding from the powergamers is that a grounding test is desirable now. They want to run their melee FMC as far down the board as they can, and then get it grounded so they can assault with it. If they land, it just gets shot to hell.

(Pissed someone off by refusing to shoot at his FMC. He didn't want to land it, and the swoop was only killing one model a turn. I could eat that. When he did eventually land it, it got blown away. He was so mad, accused me of gaming the system, saying that a reasonable soldier would of shot it down to stop it from killing his buddies.)

And a reasonable FMC would land safely if it wanted to assault, rather than flying straight into gunfire hoping he gets blown out of the sky ;).

AngryAngel
12-06-2014, 19:16
No it wasn't. Firing models didn't give cover saves in 6th or 7th; the firing unit can fire through models in their own unit without granting a cover save.

Where did I ever say models from the same unit would grant anyone a cover save for shooting through each other ? Isn't that the same as its been that they see through each other just fine ? What are you talking about ?


And a reasonable FMC would land safely if it wanted to assault, rather than flying straight into gunfire hoping he gets blown out of the sky ;).

The way flying MC's need to land and apparently bellow fiercely before they head into combat is dumb. So yeah, its gamey to not fire at them, but I have to say, I won't shoot at them either until they drop down on their own. So is it gamey, sure but then we are playing a game if people wanted reasonable and sensible rules, well they are in the wrong place in 40k.

NemoSD
12-06-2014, 19:21
Where did I ever say models from the same unit would grant anyone a cover save for shooting through each other ? Isn't that the same as its been that they see through each other just fine ? What are you talking about ?



The way flying MC's need to land and apparently bellow fiercely before they head into combat is dumb. So yeah, its gamey to not fire at them, but I have to say, I won't shoot at them either until they drop down on their own. So is it gamey, sure but then we are playing a game if people wanted reasonable and sensible rules, well they are in the wrong place in 40k.

The point of my comment, and his follow up, is to point out the irony of someone accusing another for being gamey, while being gamey themselves to try and circumvent a rule.

Theocracity
12-06-2014, 19:25
The way flying MC's need to land and apparently bellow fiercely before they head into combat is dumb.

I first got interested in 40k via Dawn of War, so a Greater Demon taking the time to bellow and pose after landing from flight matches my expectations anyhow ;).


So yeah, its gamey to not fire at them, but I have to say, I won't shoot at them either until they drop down on their own. So is it gamey, sure but then we are playing a game if people wanted reasonable and sensible rules, well they are in the wrong place in 40k.

Yup.


The point of my comment, and his follow up, is to point out the irony of someone accusing another for being gamey, while being gamey themselves to try and circumvent a rule.

Also, yup.

Calcabrina
12-06-2014, 21:52
One small thing I noticed was a mention of Kroot mercenaries in a background section completely unrelated to the Tau. A small glimmer of hope that we'll get a playable armylist again some day.

TheBearminator
12-06-2014, 23:31
Did I bring up the special rule vector dancer?

Mauler
13-06-2014, 10:38
Nope, they just have a 1/3 chance of Explodes! because they were Immobilized...

Still, I was more just thinking aloud as a possible reason it was excluded. I have no idea if it was actually intended. They copy & pasted soo much and yet, sooo little, from 6th Edition, it makes one wonder.

True, true. I hope that it's a poor copy 'n' paste oversight.



My understanding from the powergamers is that a grounding test is desirable now. They want to run their melee FMC as far down the board as they can, and then get it grounded so they can assault with it. If they land, it just gets shot to hell.

(Pissed someone off by refusing to shoot at his FMC. He didn't want to land it, and the swoop was only killing one model a turn. I could eat that. When he did eventually land it, it got blown away. He was so mad, accused me of gaming the system, saying that a reasonable soldier would of shot it down to stop it from killing his buddies.)

Haha, that cheeky git! I wouldn't want my FMC on the ground near enemy units incase they charge it, not the other way around. In my game this weekend just gone I brought my Crone in when everything else deployed at the start, it managed to tentaclid a hull point from a Soulgrinder and drooled a Nurgling base out of existance but was then prompty charged from ~17" away by Beasts and was tied up in combat for the next three turns until it finally died. So yeah; glide is not always your friend and beast units can move then charge up to 24" even through ruins. Argh.



Where did I ever say models from the same unit would grant anyone a cover save for shooting through each other ? Isn't that the same as its been that they see through each other just fine ? What are you talking about ?


So cover is on a model to model basis. If any of the firing models give the model a cover save, then the model gets it. However since it is weapon by weapon placement of weapons and timing of firing will be key.


When you said that this was in 6th as well as 7th? Admittedly I had to read it twice as firing models don't give cover saves (terrain and 3rd parties do) but the following sentance backs it up? :shifty:

Lethis, did you mean that models from the same unit as the firer provide cover saves?

lethlis
13-06-2014, 12:40
No, what i am saying is that if the target model gets cover from any of the currently firing models then it gets a cover save from all of the shots.

Which means that placement and fire order of weapons is going to be super important.

adreal
13-06-2014, 15:30
I could be wrong, but I don't think your own unit will give cover saves, don't have rulebook but I really don't think they changed that

Mauler
13-06-2014, 15:55
No, what i am saying is that if the target model gets cover from any of the currently firing models then it gets a cover save from all of the shots.

Which means that placement and fire order of weapons is going to be super important.

I've embolded the bit that's confusing me; do you mean that if we have a combat squad of 4 Marines and 1 with a plasma gun:

1) If the plasma gunner is directly behind one of the other 4 Marines the target gets a cover save...

or

2) If the normal Marines are firing and the target gets a cover save via terrain or a 3rd unit then that model gets a cover save from all the bolter shots even if he's only obscured for one of the firing models?

Surgency
13-06-2014, 15:56
I've embolded the bit that's confusing me; do you mean that if we have a combat squad of 4 Marines and 1 with a plasma gun:

1) If the plasma gunner is directly behind one of the other 4 Marines the target gets a cover save...

or

2) If the normal Marines are firing and the target gets a cover save via terrain or a 3rd unit then that model gets a cover save from all the bolter shots even if he's only obscured for one of the firing models?

the second one
I see tapatalk changed again :mad:
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

lethlis
13-06-2014, 17:11
Yea sorry I have not been very clear. Let me give an example.

You have a unit of 5 marines. 3 bolters, 2 plasmaguns. If a model has a cover save from one of the bolters then it will get a cover save from all the bolters. So it becomes important that if you have multiple of a special weapon to try and make sure that none of those models would give the target a cover save with cleaver placement.

Just little things that add tactical flexibility to a unit. Like for example I am going to be playtesting combi-plasma and meltaguns in my squads. Since they are fired at different times I can wait till everything else has fired to see if I want to fire the combi-plasma or not. However if they were the same since they have the same profile I would need to fire both.

NemoSD
13-06-2014, 17:16
Yea sorry I have not been very clear. Let me give an example.

You have a unit of 5 marines. 3 bolters, 2 plasmaguns. If a model has a cover save from one of the bolters then it will get a cover save from all the bolters. So it becomes important that if you have multiple of a special weapon to try and make sure that none of those models would give the target a cover save with cleaver placement.

Just little things that add tactical flexibility to a unit. Like for example I am going to be playtesting combi-plasma and meltaguns in my squads. Since they are fired at different times I can wait till everything else has fired to see if I want to fire the combi-plasma or not. However if they were the same since they have the same profile I would need to fire both.

They do not fire at the same time, but they are declared at the same time.

Charistoph
13-06-2014, 17:45
They do not fire at the same time, but they are declared at the same time.

This is no longer the case. You declare a unit to shoot. You then declare what weapon they're shooting. You process the Shooting Attack. If the unit has another weapon, you then declare the unit is shooting that one. It's all right there in the Shooting Phase sequence.

NemoSD
13-06-2014, 17:51
This is no longer the case. You declare a unit to shoot. You then declare what weapon they're shooting. You process the Shooting Attack. If the unit has another weapon, you then declare the unit is shooting that one. It's all right there in the Shooting Phase sequence.

Page number?

Lokust
13-06-2014, 18:46
Page number?

P.30 "select a weapon"
P.36 "select another weapon"

T10
13-06-2014, 19:31
the second one
I see tapatalk changed again :mad:
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

And it's kind of a trade-off: the shooters get to use the single most forward model in their unit when it comes to determining if the next top model is in range of that weapon group; the defender gets to use the best cover available from the shooting models.

Mauler
13-06-2014, 21:19
Yea sorry I have not been very clear. Let me give an example.

You have a unit of 5 marines. 3 bolters, 2 plasmaguns. If a model has a cover save from one of the bolters then it will get a cover save from all the bolters. So it becomes important that if you have multiple of a special weapon to try and make sure that none of those models would give the target a cover save with cleaver placement.

Just little things that add tactical flexibility to a unit. Like for example I am going to be playtesting combi-plasma and meltaguns in my squads. Since they are fired at different times I can wait till everything else has fired to see if I want to fire the combi-plasma or not. However if they were the same since they have the same profile I would need to fire both.


Aye, you're right with all that. Minor change though; it goes Unit -> Target -> Weapon -> Dakka -> Weapon -> Repeat and weapons are grouped by name, not profile. Combi-plas fires separately to normal plasma as the names are different. :)

lethlis
13-06-2014, 21:45
Good call!!, sorry for some reason I thought it said profile instead of weapon name. In that case combi melta, melta it is again.

It would be so awesome to see the melta kill a tank and then be able to save the combi melta for later.

Makes running my sternguard with two special weapons as well as the combis a better decision.

Khorneflakes
13-06-2014, 22:54
Night fighting is just stealth now and not restricted to 36"

Pinning tests from weapons, there are no pinning weapons in the rulebook! Are there any pinning weapons left? Barrage can't now that's gone too

NemoSD
13-06-2014, 23:19
Night fighting is just stealth now and not restricted to 36"

Pinning tests from weapons, there are no pinning weapons in the rulebook! Are there any pinning weapons left? Barrage can't now that's gone too

Guard has an order that gives stuff pinning, some psyker powers have pinning, and there are a few effects floating around the give/cause pinning.

acme2468
13-06-2014, 23:20
When Vehicles explode they no longer leave a crater. No more huddling in the rubble of your transport. However Buildings leave a crater when they explode.

ehlijen
13-06-2014, 23:47
Combi-plas fires separately to normal plasma as the names are different. :)

This is not correct. The section on combi weapons in the rulebook's weapon list specifically states that combi weapons fire at the same time as weapons whose name they share and whose profile they are imitating that firing phase.

So if you have 5 sternguard, 2 with full meltagun and 3 with Combiplasma, you could fire melta first and then see whether to follow up with plasma or bolters.
But if it was 2 plasma guns, 2 bolters and a combiplasma on the sergeant, the sergeant has to decide whether to fire with bolter or plasma when the first group fires and can't change his mind after.

edit: all the codex, non-generic pinning weapons are still pinning (ie whatever is not on that list).

Nid barbed stranglers for example

madden
25-06-2014, 21:37
To hit vehicals in cc you have to roll all the time even if they didn't move, this is a small change but has a massive impact.

lethlis
25-06-2014, 21:56
Unless they are immobilized.

madden
26-06-2014, 10:37
Wheres that mentioned? Cant find it.

nevermind found it.

Losing Command
26-06-2014, 14:46
Anybody mentioned yet that you can once again charge anything you like even when you cannot hurt in in CC ?

Bob Arctor
26-06-2014, 15:34
I think its been mentioned.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is that Turbo-boosting units can no longer jink. Means you have to make some hard choices whether to go for speed, safety or shooting now.

MajorWesJanson
26-06-2014, 20:49
I think its been mentioned.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is that Turbo-boosting units can no longer jink. Means you have to make some hard choices whether to go for speed, safety or shooting now.

Yes they can. Jink happens in the enemy's shooting phase now. No limits on speed.

Charistoph
26-06-2014, 21:04
25% casualties outside of Assault causes a Morale Check, no longer just Shooting. So Dangerous Terrain can make a unit run now...

Templates and Blasts can be placed on units in Assault now, so long as they aren't the primary target.

thanoson
27-06-2014, 20:25
Umm.... if I deepstrike my winged daemon prince I have to come in swooping?

DTWATKINS
28-06-2014, 12:34
Umm.... if I deepstrike my winged daemon prince I have to come in swooping?
Yep, it's now three turns between arrival and being able to get into combat, unless he/she gets grounded. Makes summoning Bloodthirsters a bit of a dubious prospect.

One I just noticed; you only need one test to activate all the Force weapons in the unit. Mass Instant Death ho!