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Shiodome
06-06-2014, 15:02
Been playing a few games of the ALL NEW SHINY edition of War Ham 40 Thousand at 1,750 points level games. And am finding the in game book keeping is really getting in the way of, well... gaming. Granted this is largely to do with me playing Daemons, but this is what i had to keep track of:

Pre Game
roll for:

warlord trait
26 Psychic powers, from 7 disciplines
9 rewards
mission
deployment type
who places 1st objective
who deploys first
seize initiative


During game:

3 MoW objectives 1st turn
1-3 MoW objectives each turn after.
psychic powers in effect
VP achieved for objectives (end of every turn, often variable)
changes in mastery level (pink horrors dying)
loss of psychic powers (as above)
new psychic powers (summoned 2 heralds)
new daemonic rewards (as above)
hull points
lost wounds on multiwound models
turn number
lasting buffs/debuffs (warpstorm table etc, grimoire etc)
mysterious objectives


now, plenty of these are so routine (hull points etc) that on their own they can just be remembered. but have found that as the number of things to remember mounts up even the basic stuff ends up being misremembered/forgotten. "hey, did that warp hunter take 2 HP three turns ago, or was one of them on those war walkers?". the simple solution is 'write it all down!'. we did... 3 full A5 pages of notes, not the army lists or anything, just notes on things to remember. one noteable example was the 24 objectives that needed to be recorded and tallied. jesus christ.

to head off any "LOL shouldn't play summoning farm then!" comments, this was hardly a summoning list. it averaged out at 1 unit summoned per turn, of which a third didn't require further rolls beyond deepstriking... oh and then the mishap table (:cries:). also the last game was vs eldar, themselves bringing ~14 psychic powers to the table.

I guess i want to ask 2 things:
1. Does anyone else feel the number of 'randomly generated' things (that then need to be remembered/recorded) is getting out of hand? 1.750 sure as hell didn't use to take 4 hours to play.
2. Does anyone have good methods for keeping things in check, so that things aren't forgotten but also so that record keeping doesn't slow things down so much?

I should add when we weren't writing we had a really fun game (even if MoW isn't even vaguely balanced), not having a 'argh something changed and i hate it!' rant. i just feel that this side of the game is slowly spiralling a bit out of control.

lastly, bookkeeping... daemon nerf by design? :P

AndrewGPaul
06-06-2014, 15:05
Not sure how the objectives are difficult to track, even without the cards. simply write down each number as you draw it, then cross it off as you score or discard it, and have a running tally of the VP total.

Something like
24
13
65
56
21
34
64
43

5 VP

As for Mysterious Objectives, I use the dice from 6th edition, but you could do something similar with home-made tokens.

For Wounds/Hull Points, etc, the tiny dice that came with Battlefleet Gothic or Pirates of the Spanish Main are easy to find and work well. Randomly-determined powers and the like can be tracked on a roster sheet - if you know your opponent well enough, simply agree to determine such things before meeting for the game, if you really want to save some time. I can't see how all of that would take up more than one side of A4.

Deployment type, order of deployment and objective placement and initiative isn't something you need to record, so I'm ignoring those. :)

Shiodome
06-06-2014, 15:12
edit: double post

Shiodome
06-06-2014, 15:14
i didn't say it was hard, i'm saying there's too much of it. and i have the note from yesterday and it's more like:


mysterious objectives:
1 = 5
2 = 2
3 = 2
4 = 1
5 = 5
6 = 6

me:
63 - discarded
27 - discarded
34 -1vp
44 - 1vp
52 - 3vp
11 - 1vp
55 - 3vp
54 - 1vp
31 - 1vp

linebreaker

opponent
14 - 1vp
16 - 1vp
25 - discarded
first blood
12 - 1vp
42 - 1vp
55 - discarded
64 - 2vp
53 - 1vp
13 - 1vp
61 - 1vp
62 - 1vp
66 - 1vp
33 - 1vp
45 - 3vp

Felwether
06-06-2014, 15:21
i didn't say it was hard, i'm saying there's too much of it. and i have the note from yesterday and it's more like:

It's well worth picking up a set of the objective cards or making your own. Then you don't need to keep notes, just the deck, a pile for discarded cards/completed cards, and your active cards. Just use dice to keep track of your score.

Shiodome
06-06-2014, 15:34
sold out aren't they? will absolutely be making my own after this weeks games. dice as markers doesn't really work for us, they get nudged, picked up or simply slide off (lovely table with sculpted table surface... looks great, things fall over :D)

the point is, with every change to the game there's just more and more of this stuff. warlord traits, hull points, maelstrom missions, psychic dice pool, these are all recent additions (depending on how long you've played). the psychic phase and the increase in psychers contribute, the daemon codex is practically a deliberate joke in the number of things to roll for... etc etc. do you remember how streamlined 5th edition was? GW made a very big deal at one point about streamlining their games, but that's clearly gone out of the window with 40k definitely being the most clunky game I play. i have very limited spare time, and when a game took 2-2.5 hours i could fit that in the occasional evening. now it's definitely 'only 40k on days off' and only then if there's nothing else going on.

Deadite
06-06-2014, 15:38
I've been complaining to my local group about bookkeeping getting nuts since 6th edit (all 2 years ago... :shifty: ). I found most of the bookkeeping ended up ignored anyway, such as warlord trait or the warp storm table, or chaos reward table (except when it was a really good one, like Demon Prince). Anything that rarely came in to play (due to obscurity or the model affected was killed before it could use 'x' trait/ability) was often forgotten. So, our solution was basically "if it doesn't appear to add anything to the GAME, then ignore it". Not the best solution, but ensured we enjoyed the game rather than wallow in needless upkeep.

Spare Change
06-06-2014, 15:58
I play Thousand Sons with Tzeentch daemon allies.

I feel your pain, friend.

NazaryleLordofFate
06-06-2014, 16:46
I play both csm and daemons I too feel your pain

Shiodome
06-06-2014, 16:59
one solution is to hire a secretary. (i'm not kidding)

our games normally have a bystander. i think in future i'm gonna hand them paper, a pen and a beer (and possibly a pencil skirt, and horn rimmed glasses)

totgeboren
06-06-2014, 17:03
Well, the easiest way around it is to not play MoW, not play Daemons and only bring one maybe two psykers tops.
I know that is really bad advice, especially about not playing daemons, but daemons with all their random rewards are just horrible when it comes to book-keeping to begin with, the new psychics are horrible if you include more than one psyker per discipline and the MoW missions are just icing on the cake for making something incredibly cumbersome even worse.

For example, psychic cards only work if you have one psycher per discipline. I faced a Nid army with three psychers, and all of them had some overlap when it came to what powers they had. Even though the Nid player have the psychic cards for them, he had to write down what each model had anyway since there wasn't enough cards.

I dunno if this would help, "Cheat Sheets" for Daemons.
http://www.warpstonepile.com/2013/08/cheat-sheets.html

You could expand them with more psychic powers, but knowing which sheet goes with which Herald might be tricky when you have 5-6 Heralds on the table.

But yeah, Daemon, and especially daemon with lots of psychers involve so much book-keeping that they can become almost unplayable. Not even first edition w40k had this much book-keeping to be honest.

Ssilmath
06-06-2014, 17:07
I assume you have your army list written down or printed out? Just write down the powers/rewards next to that character, and reference the sheet if you're not sure about what they have.

Minsc
06-06-2014, 17:11
I assume you have your army list written down or printed out? Just write down the powers/rewards next to that character, and reference the sheet if you're not sure about what they have.

This.

Also, before I got my tactical objective-cards, I simply used to old and proud tradition of pen & paper. Roll two dice, write the objectives down. Want to discard and/or complete a objective? Cross it over and write down the VP gained. Simple.

HelloKitty
06-06-2014, 17:28
It uses its army list to write down the nasty warlord trait and psyker powers that this one generates.

For hull points this one uses dice on the vehicle counting how many filthy hull points it has taken.

For wounds it uses red glass chits next to the model. This can also be used for vehicles as well, red denotes wounds. It also has blue chits, green glass chits, and white glass chits to denote buffs etc.

For tactical cards it has the cards, but would also make index card versions or simply write them down.

This one has not noticed the game becoming as horrible as some of the creatures say it is.

fenrisbrit
06-06-2014, 17:29
I dunno if this would help, "Cheat Sheets" for Daemons.
http://www.warpstonepile.com/2013/08/cheat-sheets.html

You could expand them with more psychic powers, but knowing which sheet goes with which Herald might be tricky when you have 5-6 Heralds on the table.

But yeah, Daemon, and especially daemon with lots of psychers involve so much book-keeping that they can become almost unplayable. Not even first edition w40k had this much book-keeping to be honest.

I think cheat sheets are definitely the way to go if you have a regular army. I used them for my 1k Sons in 6 Edn to track all the various bits. Especially useful in Tourneys to speed up the start of game sequence and even more important in 7th than 6th.

Konovalev
06-06-2014, 18:21
For some of those I just use dice, doesn't everyone? Hull points, wounds, I just drop a die next to my unit indicating the remaining HP/wounds.

Same with turn number, until I went ahead and just picked up a cheapo turn counter.

hobojebus
06-06-2014, 18:33
Do people still write lists, I thought this was the information age my lists on my tablet, it's been a while since I bothered writing a list by hand.

Surprised they didn't make a 40k bookkeeping app for 15.

Ssilmath
06-06-2014, 18:39
Do people still write lists, I thought this was the information age my lists on my tablet, it's been a while since I bothered writing a list by hand.

Surprised they didn't make a 40k bookkeeping app for 15.

I'm old and set in my ways. I can't speak for everybody, of course, but it's much easier for me to write my list out. Also much easier to refer to it rather than a tablet.

Also, I'm too poor to own a tablet...

Royals
06-06-2014, 18:50
I'm old and set in my ways. I can't speak for everybody, of course, but it's much easier for me to write my list out. Also much easier to refer to it rather than a tablet.

Also, I'm too poor to own a tablet...

Oh man, I am a stickler about writing lists. I have to have one for almost every game, even if it's scratched out on a piece of receipt paper.

hobojebus
06-06-2014, 18:59
You play 40k but cant afford a tablet? they start at the same price as a GW tank these days its not like you have to go out buy the latest iPad :)

You get alot more use out of one than a tank aswell.

NemoSD
06-06-2014, 19:04
I use a ledger book for my Lists. The columns are all nice and pretty making it easy to track wargear, point cost of wargear, upgrades/cost, etc I leave a blank line for warlord (Two for creed) and then 2 blank lines+1 per mastery for psykers. Done.

One thing I have learned working in offices, and loving technology, is that when it comes to on the scene tracking, rather it be tracking what documents are filed where, or the flow process of data being entered, or what psychic powers my Wyrdvane have, pencil and paper are the fastest, most efficient way to record such transient data.

Ssilmath
06-06-2014, 19:04
You play 40k but cant afford a tablet? they start at the same price as a GW tank these days its not like you have to go out buy the latest iPad :)

You get alot more use out of one than a tank aswell.

Hmmm, I was about to argue, but you do make a good point...Well, I don't buy tanks either, no money for them either. 7th edition pretty much broke my gaming budget for a few months. Most of my current collection comes from when I actually had money, but didn't need a tablet. Don't need one now either, but if I an sell off an army or two it wouldn't be a bad purchase.


I use a ledger book for my Lists. The columns are all nice and pretty making it easy to track wargear, point cost of wargear, upgrades/cost, etc I leave a blank line for warlord (Two for creed) and then 2 blank lines+1 per mastery for psykers. Done.

I use an engineering pad for my lists. Everything gets nicely spaced out and orderly.

NemoSD
06-06-2014, 19:06
Hmmm, I was about to argue, but you do make a good point...Well, I don't buy tanks either, no money for them either. 7th edition pretty much broke my gaming budget for a few months. Most of my current collection comes from when I actually had money, but didn't need a tablet. Don't need one now either, but if I an sell off an army or two it wouldn't be a bad purchase.



I use an engineering pad for my lists. Everything gets nicely spaced out and orderly.

This, a lot of us got into the hobby when we had money and now we don't. I do use a tablet, but hate it for army lists. I can not scratch notes into a tablet list. Maybe it is an age thing, I grew up before tablets were really a thing and have always valued actual paper that I can make notes on. I have noticed students using Kindle Textbooks which baffles me. How do you study without highlighting or margin note taking?

lethlis
06-06-2014, 19:12
Our local daemon guy would bring a white board to the tournaments.

Another person had laminated cards with little boxes on them for each of the gifts he would take with a picture of the model. Then every game he would just put a black mark on what he got and wipe it away after.

None of this was necessary, but it was pretty cool to see.

Felwether
06-06-2014, 19:14
Ha that's cool. I may try that for Inquisitor character sheets.

Shiodome
06-06-2014, 20:11
have been trialling using a tablet for record keeping... writing on paper is MUCH quicker for anything that you're only going to need once (i.e notes for 1 particular game). though i do use the tablet for rules, and am finding editing, annoting and effectively creating my own index is useful.

hobojebus
07-06-2014, 01:16
This, a lot of us got into the hobby when we had money and now we don't. I do use a tablet, but hate it for army lists. I can not scratch notes into a tablet list. Maybe it is an age thing, I grew up before tablets were really a thing and have always valued actual paper that I can make notes on. I have noticed students using Kindle Textbooks which baffles me. How do you study without highlighting or margin note taking?

I like to embrace technology and always have, I get that from my father I built my first pc when we switched from 486s to p90s and have been an early adopter of what's new, I love living in the future where warp travel and replicators are not just sci-fi but something we may see in our life times.

Though I haven't bothered with a 7th gen console as neither has a game I can't get on pc that I want.

NemoSD
07-06-2014, 01:18
I like to embrace technology and always have, I get that from my father I built my first pc when we switched from 486s to p90s and have been an early adopter of what's new, I love living in the future where warp travel and replicators are not just sci-fi but something we may see in our life times.

Though I haven't bothered with a 7th gen console as neither has a game I can't get on pc that I want.

That makes me feel older... :-p My first computer was a Vic 20

Minsc
07-06-2014, 01:42
Do people still write lists, I thought this was the information age my lists on my tablet, it's been a while since I bothered writing a list by hand.

Surprised they didn't make a 40k bookkeeping app for 15.

My current cell phone is a Samsung *something* from 2003.

It works just fine; I can make calls and write SMS's with it. It also has a longer battery-time than anything that's currently on the market. ;)

I have no tablet and I don't want a tablet as I have no real need for it. Pen and paper suits me just fine when making armylists.

hobojebus
07-06-2014, 01:59
That makes me feel older... :-p My first computer was a Vic 20

I was on about the first I built from scratch, first I owned was a Texas instruments machine you loaded software off a tape cassette, then I had a Amstrad with a black and green screen, my first 386 was a big step up from that I tell you.

Nowadays kids would be lost trying to use dos, damn I'm an old fart next I'll be telling girls to pull their skirts down to cover up.

Losing Command
07-06-2014, 02:49
I still use a cheap notebook and a pen (or pencil) to keep track of which aspiring sorcerer has which powers and what power the Scrolls of Magnus have granted to the HQ sorcerer. As for warlord traits, the warlods I use have fixed traits anyway (Pedro Kantor for my marines, or Ahriman for the thousand sons) so that saves some time :cool: It might be the practise, but I've often already wrote things down before people could tap it into their phone/tablet. I do have an E-reader for the erreta's though, because printing the new version becomes a lot more expensive over time than a cheap E-reader, unless you have one of those fancy new phones :shifty:

Amnar
07-06-2014, 04:01
It uses its army list to write down the nasty warlord trait and psyker powers that this one generates.

For hull points this one uses dice on the vehicle counting how many filthy hull points it has taken.

For wounds it uses red glass chits next to the model. This can also be used for vehicles as well, red denotes wounds. It also has blue chits, green glass chits, and white glass chits to denote buffs etc.

For tactical cards it has the cards, but would also make index card versions or simply write them down.

This one has not noticed the game becoming as horrible as some of the creatures say it is.

Give it a rest gollum. Super annoying in every thread.

mongoosedog300
07-06-2014, 04:36
Wounds/HP are d6 next to or on the model. Psychic powers are one line each on a peice of paper, same with warlord trait. We ignore the only one use tactical objectives and just usr whatever you roll, so thats one line per turn.

Most games i either use an a4 sheet or 2 smaller ones....anythingbesides that gets remembered

hobojebus
07-06-2014, 12:31
Give it a rest gollum. Super annoying in every thread.

Don't make me call the rspca, leave the cat be it harms no one.

Fox Of 9
07-06-2014, 13:13
Don't make me call the rspca, leave the cat be it harms no one.

And amuses others. :P


Back on topic.. I have marines.. So it's quite a simple affair.. Might be starting a Csm army later in the year so I'll get back to this later. :3

David.

Minsc
07-06-2014, 13:32
Don't make me call the rspca, leave the cat be it harms no one.

+1.
Also, continuity & effort should be rewarded, not punished. :)

If his posts bother you so much Amnar, then simply add him to your ignorelist?

Amnar
07-06-2014, 16:18
Awesome, how do I do that on tapatalk?

Disposable Hero
07-06-2014, 23:17
Don't make me call the rspca, leave the cat be it harms no one.


It does and it needs to be killed with righteous fire.

ehlijen
07-06-2014, 23:35
+1.
Also, continuity & effort should be rewarded, not punished. :)


In measures. Too much continuity will result in impenetrability to new readers, especially in a forum, which is not the format where one expects continuity. This isn't quite that bad, of course (however annoying I find it I will admit that) but excessive self referencing tends to lead to insular communities. Just wanted to put your statement into context :)

Shiodome
08-06-2014, 07:39
if someone wants to be an attention seeking douche let them, it doesn't hurt anyone.

MajorWesJanson
08-06-2014, 13:42
I've found that d4s make for great wound/hull-point trackers 95% of the time, and d10s or even d20s are useful for keeping track of victory points. And they are not going to be confused with the d6s rolling around, so people won't pick them up by mistake.

Also handy is that if you laminate an army list, you can write right on it with dry erase markers and wipe it off later.

Krucifus
08-06-2014, 20:39
We use the tiny green d6's that came with Epic 40K, they work great as they're small enough to sit on bases and as you say, they don't get mistaken for normal D6's.

Also the Order dice make fab pinned/under psychic spell/routed/immobilised/weapon destroyed markers too :)