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ewar
08-06-2014, 23:51
Not really a question - I've just been reading a lot of moaning lately and thought I'd share my thoughts.

In 20+ years of gaming I've never known WFB to be more balanced and fun than it is now. All my recent games have been a blast: my Tomb Kings are awesome and I'm starting Wood Elves next month as the models are gorgeous. I play other games too of course but nothing compares to fully painted 3k armies lined up to do battle. :D

Tl;Dr I'm loving it (to quote a well known ad)

Malagor
08-06-2014, 23:55
hmmm need more whining :shifty:

But I do agree. I was a bit cautious about fantasy coming from 40k, thinking that it can't be as good as 40k but I was gladly proven wrong.
I can count good and fun matches in 40k with my hands but with fantasy ? Too many to count.
Here's to 8e! :cool:

TheKingInYellow
08-06-2014, 23:56
I have to agree. Part of it is playing in a good group of gamers and with mine every player is having fun and winning their share.

First place in our escalation league is running Beastmen and third place is Wood Elves, it's awesome.

Ramius4
09-06-2014, 00:38
I'll throw in my support on this one too. I have very few minor gripes about 8th. Overall, it's been the best edition IMO, and I've been playing since 4th. There's not a single army I don't enjoy playing, and I play them all. :)

I'd hate to be getting into the game as a new player nowadays though, it's way more expensive than when I began (or even 10 years ago for that matter), and generally speaking the number of models needed to play an effective and varied army has gone up besides.

Ultimate Life Form
09-06-2014, 00:44
Yes, me too. I absolutely love the current state of the game. It's for that very reason that I'm worried because GW always seems hell-bent on throwing a wrench in the works in one way or the other. I wish they would just keep the game as is and lower the prices by 50% and I'd actually be happy.

Oswen
09-06-2014, 00:54
I used to play during 6th edition then skipped 7th altogether.
I came back to WFB some months ago (with VCs) together with a group of friends and my brother (DE, Empire and Bretonnia), we found a very nice gaming club and we are having a blast playing, it truly is a very good edition.

However i agree, the entry point for a new player is brutal and the models needed (especially infantry blocks) are way too many and extremely expensive.
A veteran hobbyist may go on and slowly build his/her army anyway but try to tell to someone who is new to wargaming in general to start an army to play with you: after having visited GW "webstore" he will surely think you are mad and with a serious spending problem.

Alltaken
09-06-2014, 02:21
I also love the game currently. Im really liking it more as we go on since my group is growing more in fun games and lists that ott builds

From my servoskull

Sexiest_hero
09-06-2014, 02:27
The entry point isn't to rough if you do a little research/ buy second hand models, just as a starter army.That said I HATE 8TH EDITION. I hate it because it's so good it makes me see just how unfun 7th edition was. I hate it because it's going away next year and will only be a fading memory like those twins in Okinawa. Oh 8th edition why can't you stay with me forever, we can make it work!

Knifeparty
09-06-2014, 02:29
Warhammer is indeed awesome right now. I've enjoyed 8th more than any other incarnation of the game, I hope 9th doesn't change too much.

Just Tony
09-06-2014, 03:14
In 20+ years of gaming I've never known WFB to be more balanced and fun than it is now.

So you never played 6th edition with Ravening Hordes?

I'm extremely curious to see exactly what happens with the new edition, but I am not counting on the "FOC" as it is in fantasy to stick around much anymore. GW for the longest time has been embracing customizing options, and I'm leery of it being amped to the nth degree. Especially if they decide they need to sell more Rare kits.

CountUlrich
09-06-2014, 03:55
This is absolutely, and by a long distance the best edition of the game ever. I am loving it, and hope 9th doesn't change too much. It does need some tweeks, but it is a great game, and I have an amazing time playing it.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Ramius4
09-06-2014, 03:58
Oh 8th edition why can't you stay with me forever, we can make it work!

Who could argue with Captain Kirk??? :p

lybban
09-06-2014, 06:50
I'll join in the choire! Loing whfb more than ever now!!! Have five armies and want more!!!


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Shakkara
09-06-2014, 08:05
I would like to see unit sizes go back down to for 20 for infantry on average and I do not like the random charge distance.

Other than that, they are finally releasing models that I like (eg Eternal Guard, Dark Elf Warriors), as I stopped getting new stuff altogether the past years due to ugliness and finecast being almost impossible to assemble and paint.

ewar
09-06-2014, 08:18
So you never played 6th edition with Ravening Hordes?
.

I did and it was fun at the time. But it was completely dominated by dragons and cavalry - the only infantry that were viable were unbreakable, stubborn or skirmishers.

In 8th I see effective infantry lists, cavalry lists, some monster mash etc and despite there being some bad matchups (there always will be with 15 different armies) each game is winnable. Unlike in 6th when armies like Brent RAF were almost unbeatable with an infantry list.

So yeah, 8th is much more balanced than 6th IMO. The armies on the table look like ones from the background for the first time since the game began I think.

Regarding getting new blood into the game, that is a tough sell I agree. However there are definitely some more cost effective armies out there. But reducing cost of entry is critical for GW to sort out.

dalezzz
09-06-2014, 08:33
Many +1s :)

ZT Strike
09-06-2014, 10:21
My 2 cents: I really think more people enjoy they game then ever, but I can't prove that for certain. The reason their is so much whine and crying I really think is from the actions GW has mad in the past 3 to 5 years. Some things are simply changes and very few humans honestly don't like change. However, some of these decisions are simply seen as poor judgement or cash grabs (40k 7th ed, and Witch Elves set for example.)

While I think fantasy is better than it ever has been I personally think it could be loads better if GW tired harder to do so.

Spiney Norman
09-06-2014, 10:28
Not really a question - I've just been reading a lot of moaning lately and thought I'd share my thoughts.

In 20+ years of gaming I've never known WFB to be more balanced and fun than it is now. All my recent games have been a blast: my Tomb Kings are awesome and I'm starting Wood Elves next month as the models are gorgeous. I play other games too of course but nothing compares to fully painted 3k armies lined up to do battle. :D

Tl;Dr I'm loving it (to quote a well known ad)

This pretty accurately sums up my thoughts on the current situation as well, and its just as well because I've all but dropped 40k now.
Coincidentally I also play tomb kings and wood elves...

The only thing I'm nervous about is these rumours of a big change into 9th edition by the end of the year. Like you, I have never known fantasy to be in a better place than it is now, and seeing what an unbalanced, ill-thought out pile of poop 7th 40k has turned out to be I am literally dreading the damage a new edition could do with the 'meh-who-cares' attitude of the design team ATM.

I had been hoping that they might have held 9th edition until next summer, which would have given them time to release Bretonnians, beastmen and Skaven, but assuming it will instead happen around October/November time I expect we'll only get one of those, and if the change is big enough to invalidate all army books en-masse, we may not get any more 8th ed army books.

Urgat
09-06-2014, 10:29
Not really a question - I've just been reading a lot of moaning lately and thought I'd share my thoughts.

In 20+ years of gaming I've never known WFB to be more balanced and fun than it is now. All my recent games have been a blast: my Tomb Kings are awesome and I'm starting Wood Elves next month as the models are gorgeous. I play other games too of course but nothing compares to fully painted 3k armies lined up to do battle. :D

Tl;Dr I'm loving it (to quote a well known ad)

Same here, let us have some positivity :)

Metacarpi
09-06-2014, 10:30
Another voice praising 8e here - sure, it's not flawless by a long shot, and there are plenty of things that GW do that leave me scratching my head in puzzlement. But as a game system, me and my group are having an absolute blast with it. Many other games take up our time (X-Wing, Clash of Cultures etc), but 8e is our most commonly payed game by a good way.

StygianBeach
09-06-2014, 11:34
8th is good!

7th was good..... 5th was good at the time.

lets hope 9th is a completely different animal to 6th/7th edition 40K.

ewar
09-06-2014, 13:29
This pretty accurately sums up my thoughts on the current situation as well, and its just as well because I've all but dropped 40k now.
Coincidentally I also play tomb kings and wood elves...

The only thing I'm nervous about is these rumours of a big change into 9th edition by the end of the year. Like you, I have never known fantasy to be in a better place than it is now, and seeing what an unbalanced, ill-thought out pile of poop 7th 40k has turned out to be I am literally dreading the damage a new edition could do with the 'meh-who-cares' attitude of the design team ATM.

I had been hoping that they might have held 9th edition until next summer, which would have given them time to release Bretonnians, beastmen and Skaven, but assuming it will instead happen around October/November time I expect we'll only get one of those, and if the change is big enough to invalidate all army books en-masse, we may not get any more 8th ed army books.

I'm worried about 9th too - I really, really hope that the design studio realise that they have a great game on their hands. All they need to do is make a beginner-friendly version which works at low points levels to get newbies into the swing of things.

I just cannot believe they would risk invalidating all of their very expensive hard back books... But as is the way with these things, if it all goes horribly wrong, my group will just stick with 8th ed as it's now almost complete. Also, I will be massively surprised if they release 9th in the same year as 40k 7th, so I think we've got enough time to get all the outstanding books out.

HelloKitty
09-06-2014, 13:43
It agrees. It thinks fantasy is a lot of fun and it is happy that the community is loads more positive than the 40k crowd.

Nubl0
09-06-2014, 18:01
given how 6th ed and 7th ed 40k have been handled I fear for 9th. I can see it now, giant scrolls of binding monster, allies matrix that makes no sense, unbound to take whatever you want in a standard game. Love warhammer as it is now, could just use a few minor tweaks to the spell lores and steadfast.

Sexiest_hero
09-06-2014, 18:08
At this point I feel like 9th is a giant twin tailed comet that's going to ruin everything in sight! How ironic.... that said I thought 7th fixed the issues of 6th 40k I was hopping to be able to get back into the game. Is it better or worse than 6th?

Seriqolm
09-06-2014, 18:31
I'll throw in my support on this one too. I have very few minor gripes about 8th. Overall, it's been the best edition IMO, and I've been playing since 4th. There's not a single army I don't enjoy playing, and I play them all. :)

I'd hate to be getting into the game as a new player nowadays though, it's way more expensive than when I began (or even 10 years ago for that matter), and generally speaking the number of models needed to play an effective and varied army has gone up besides.


I've only be playing for 8 months but have joined a great club with about 20 regular players and a few intermittent players and really enjoy the game and the wider hobby. I play in a competitive league (got my **** handed to me in the early rounds :)) and casual games. I've been around Warseer for a while and cannot understand the cost of entry arguments but that's a thread for another alternative room near by. Though I cannot echo the other sentiments because I've not played earlier editions, I'm thoroughly enjoying playing the game and for me its very cheap entertainment.

Ramius4
09-06-2014, 18:53
I've only be playing for 8 months but have joined a great club with about 20 regular players and a few intermittent players and really enjoy the game and the wider hobby. I play in a competitive league (got my **** handed to me in the early rounds :)) and casual games. I've been around Warseer for a while and cannot understand the cost of entry arguments but that's a thread for another alternative room near by. Though I cannot echo the other sentiments because I've not played earlier editions, I'm thoroughly enjoying playing the game and for me its very cheap entertainment.

Glad to hear it :)

To explain, I suppose you'd need to know that my group and I never use the same army list twice. It's all about having options and flexibility. And in order to do that, takes a lot of miniatures.

As for the hobby being a lot more expensive these days... In just the past 10 years alone the cost of plastic kits has roughly doubled (give or take 10% depending on the kit). If you go back just 16-17 years for example, you could get 30 plastic Empire Halberdiers for $30 (the regiment of Altdorf kit).

I'm happy that you find it cheap to get into, but generally speaking, that is far from the case.

PlasticSwap.Com
09-06-2014, 19:13
AHHH!!! Stop the praising it hurts the eyes (ears?). (Heard from Games Workshop Corporate offices as they read this forum post).

ewar
09-06-2014, 19:19
I'm just happy to find out that there are some people on this Warhammer forum who quite like Warhammer :)

GW will probably read this and take it as vindication for another round of price bumps and issue a limited edition 'fanboi' set of the BRB.

Korinov
09-06-2014, 19:24
The entry point isn't to rough if you do a little research/ buy second hand models, just as a starter army.That said I HATE 8TH EDITION. I hate it because it's so good it makes me see just how unfun 7th edition was. I hate it because it's going away next year and will only be a fading memory like those twins in Okinawa. Oh 8th edition why can't you stay with me forever, we can make it work!

Ever heard of 'oldhammer'?

Seriqolm
09-06-2014, 19:26
Glad to hear it :)

To explain, I suppose you'd need to know that my group and I never use the same army list twice. It's all about having options and flexibility. And in order to do that, takes a lot of miniatures.

As for the hobby being a lot more expensive these days... In just the past 10 years alone the cost of plastic kits has roughly doubled (give or take 10% depending on the kit). If you go back just 16-17 years for example, you could get 30 plastic Empire Halberdiers for $30 (the regiment of Altdorf kit).

I'm happy that you find it cheap to get into, but generally speaking, that is far from the case.



Oh! I understand the economics, I've read Warseer and Dakka for the past 8 months ;) I'm self employed and have had my personal working costs soar these past 5 years, so I'm not immune to the realities of economics but that gives me a little insight into business as I effectively run my own business, I also understand its relative to individual circumstances so I will not labour the point as this is a positive thread.

Warhammer is great fun I've nearly stopped playing video games as a result and I've played video games since the 70's that's quite a feat. :D

FLUEVOG
09-06-2014, 19:52
Only thing I like about random charges is that it makes Dwarfs a little more competitive. Ogres are a better army this editon too

BorderKing
09-06-2014, 22:43
GW will probably read this and take it as vindication for another round of price bumps and issue a limited edition 'fanboi' set of the BRB.

I'd buy that !!

Greyshadow
09-06-2014, 23:13
I loved 7th edition - I LOVE 8th edition. I have found it just so much fun. It is because of 8th that at the end of this edition I'll have gone from one small army to two good sized armies with a new table with lots of terrain and a third army in the works. The game is awesome.

Ramius4
09-06-2014, 23:34
I'd buy that !!

I'm sure they'd be MORE than happy to sell it to you :p

ewar
10-06-2014, 00:07
I'd buy that !!

Just 17,942 copies remaining!? Quick, quick, where can I sign up???


I loved 7th edition - I LOVE 8th edition. I have found it just so much fun. It is because of 8th that at the end of this edition I'll have gone from one small army to two good sized armies with a new table with lots of terrain and a third army in the works. The game is awesome.

Glad to hear it. I'm in a similar boat, I normally do one army per edition: 4th ed Dwarfs, 5th ed Nurgle Hordes of Chaos, 6th ed Bretonnians, 7th ed Lizardmen, 8th ed Tomb Kings and soon to be Wood Elves. Plus I bulked up my LM army massively at the start of 8th. So I'll have done 3 armies in this edition to just one in each of the previous.

I had a game the other weekend where the whole game came down to the result of two combats, which could have gone either way. My Tomb Guard were fighting phoenix guard in the front and spearmen in the flank, it was just by piling on buff after buff in the magic phase that they managed to hang on long enough to turn the tide. Finally the PG lost by one and failed their break test, losing their banner bearer and hitting their breakpoint. If I had lost that round I'd have hit my breakpoint, we were both biting our nails every time we chucked the dice, which is what table top wargaming is all about.

I don't think I've ever played a 40k game in any edition that could have gone either way in turn 5 - 99% of the time it's decided much earlier than that.

Azazel
10-06-2014, 01:05
I hadn't played WHFB since the edition before Ravening Hordes, but came back recently.

The pace of 40k releases has become too fast, Warhammer Fantasy has a nice steady pace of releases that suit me better. Also the game isn't plagued by things like supplements, dataslates, formations or allies.

And I am tired of moving my 60 cultists around a board individually. Much nicer to just have 40 guys on a tray and move them all at once.

The game itself does seem a lot more balanced, and tactical. I never really appreciated the old comparison between chess and checkers of the two games until I had played too much 40k.

SteveW
10-06-2014, 01:15
I will join the choir and parrot the OP. In 20+ years of war hammer its never been this fun. So hopefully it will get even better with the next edition.

Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

shotguncoffee
10-06-2014, 05:12
For us who design games but don't play warhammer right now, please try listing what you like about 8th -- what makes it more fun and enjoyable?

E.g. : "random charge ranges makes it much more fun that 7th"

dooms33ker
10-06-2014, 05:44
For us who design games but don't play warhammer right now, please try listing what you like about 8th -- what makes it more fun and enjoyable?

E.g. : "random charge ranges makes it much more fun that 7th"

It isn't just the rules themselves being leagues better, though most of them indeed are, it is the army books being more conducive to balanced and fair play, barring a few ugly exceptions. If I had to find something about the core rules that makes 8th better than most previous editions I would say it's the general streamlining of the game's many mechanics and nuances.

Streamlining is good. Dumbing down is obviously bad. A good game creator is able to identify the sometimes subtle distinctions between the two in wargaming. Less rules without an impact on the strategy, tactics and variety, as well as having most of them available for quick reference in one core rulebook, is probably key to an enjoyable wargame. Incidentally, this is the diametric opposite to what GW is doing with their 40k rule sets, where you have several rulebooks, expansions, dataslates, supplements, etc, in an effort to extract as much money from the fan base as possible.

If you want a really good ruleset for a wargame as a template, and selling large quantities of miniatures is not your sole impetus for creating a game, check out the rules for the Lord of the Rings and Warmaster. Both are fantastic games, though have largely faded away into obscurity.

shotguncoffee
10-06-2014, 06:31
Thanks... So what is so good about the army books, in particular? As I just wrote in another thread, it seems like High Elves is basically one unit (Warriors, Sea Guard, Sisters, etc. - all a 5 4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8 unit with the same special rules and slightly varied weaponry.)

GrandmasterWang
10-06-2014, 06:32
Not really a question - I've just been reading a lot of moaning lately and thought I'd share my thoughts.

In 20+ years of gaming I've never known WFB to be more balanced and fun than it is now. All my recent games have been a blast: my Tomb Kings are awesome and I'm starting Wood Elves next month as the models are gorgeous. I play other games too of course but nothing compares to fully painted 3k armies lined up to do battle. :D

Tl;Dr I'm loving it (to quote a well known ad)



Well... make that 15 years of gaming for me and remove the bit about wood elves and ill claim that post for my own :)

Loving 8th and my Tomb Kings atm.

8th is indeed the best warhammer released by a long way imo. With massive casualties from combat (not run down) the game actually feels a lot more like a clash of armies now.

8th ftw! Im also not looking forward to 9th.

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dalezzz
10-06-2014, 07:31
Random charges are much better :) been playing mordheim recently and the static charges are .... Annoying , probably the worst part of that great game , for me at least

dooms33ker
10-06-2014, 08:23
Thanks... So what is so good about the army books, in particular? As I just wrote in another thread, it seems like High Elves is basically one unit (Warriors, Sea Guard, Sisters, etc. - all a 5 4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8 unit with the same special rules and slightly varied weaponry.)

Okay, so here goes.

Take away their Banner of the World Dragon and Book of Hoeth and The High Elves become a balanced yet still strong army book, precisely because most of the units are similar with a few small but crucial differences.

They are an elite, generally medium armored army that performs extremely well on the battlefield when each of the units work in tandem, i.e. Silver Helms and Reavers outlfanking their foes while the ranked infantry engage head-on. The trouble comes with the BOTWD being thrown into the mix, which allows one strong unit, usually White Lions, to become remarkably resilient versus magical attacks and spells, and enables all the mages in the unit to cast magic with impunity while using the book of hoeth to make the magic stronger.

Still, even powerful combos like this one aren't as game-breaking as the sort of shenanigans going on with 40k, allies and psykers being two examples. The Chaos Warriors Daemon prince, another offender in the overpowered category within WHFB, can be put down with a single lucky cannon ball shot to the face or stonethrower boulder over the noggin. What can reliably kill a Tau Riptide in a single fell shot in 40k? How about facing a mechanized eldar list with 6+ wave serpents and a pair of Wraithknights?

In Fantasy I might not have the tools to deal with a large unit of Beasts of Nurgle, but I can likely stall it for a few turns. That's a lot harder to do with some of the really powerful units in 40k.

When designing a game the last thing you want is to make a glorified match of rock/papers/scissors, except where you buy a $500 dollar pair of scissors only to be smashed by someone's $600 rock.

This is why I don't play Magic the Gathering any longer, and why I've cut back considerably on 40k.

Greyshadow
10-06-2014, 08:33
I had a game the other weekend where the whole game came down to the result of two combats, which could have gone either way. My Tomb Guard were fighting phoenix guard in the front and spearmen in the flank, it was just by piling on buff after buff in the magic phase that they managed to hang on long enough to turn the tide.

Awesome - I have a real soft spot for Tomb Kings. Great looking and interesting army. Congratulations on the win!

Yowzo
10-06-2014, 08:56
I will join the choir and parrot the OP. In 20+ years of war hammer its never been this fun. So hopefully it will get even better with the next edition.

Add in one more voice to the choir.

Started with the 4th ed boxed set and having more fun than ever.

Korinov
10-06-2014, 09:24
With massive casualties from combat (not run down) the game actually feels a lot more like a clash of armies now.

A clash of fantasy armies ;)

GrandmasterWang
10-06-2014, 09:40
A clash of fantasy armies ;)

What???

I thought it was a commonly known fact that Hitler was defeated only when a Hell Pit Abomination rolled up his flank and his bodyguard were turned to rats.


Multiple Unit combats are awesome now. No more having 30 goblins charged by 5 knights being unable to fight back due to front rank dying

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Epicene
10-06-2014, 10:17
All they need to do is make a beginner-friendly version which works at low points levels.

They do need that. I have friends that would like to play Fantasy that have never played before, but they're put off by the sheer scale of collecting an army.

Whilst I might not be the biggest fan of the current rule-set, I'm willing to give it another go, having taken a break as I've always preferred Fantasy to 40k.

Korinov
10-06-2014, 10:24
What???

I thought it was a commonly known fact that Hitler was defeated only when a Hell Pit Abomination rolled up his flank and his bodyguard were turned to rats.

Nah, in truth he was piloting a Dreadnought and managed to fend off the Hell Pit thing with relative ease :D

I just wanted to clarify the "massive brutal infantry clashes with lots of casualties" is something that may happen in a fantasy world but not in a realistic setting (with very few exceptions).

I actually dislike the "second rank also hits" rule, it's too unrealistic for my taste.

Yowzo
10-06-2014, 10:49
They do need that. I have friends that would like to play Fantasy that have never played before, but they're put off by the sheer scale of collecting an army.

Try 750 points with 2D3 power dice.

It makes for fun, quick games. We started what was to be an escalation league at that point level and left it frozen at 750 since you could easily play a game and rematch in less than 2h.

Snake1311
10-06-2014, 10:50
They do need that. I have friends that would like to play Fantasy that have never played before, but they're put off by the sheer scale of collecting an army.


+1. Although the current rulset actually works just fine with 500/600 point games (which is a starter box and a character). They just need to make that clear somewhere - its actually a very minimal amount of work, for potentially big returns.

Timathius
10-06-2014, 11:50
I want to throw out my support for this as well. 8th is the most fun I've had gaming since I was a wee young lad picking up third ed 40k for the first time. Love the army books and the rule set, there are a couple issues, but over all extremely fun and engaging game.

Not to mention that the models they are putting out are superb and I love painting them as well. Yes, they are very expensive and probably 1/4 over priced. But compared to other hobbies I have looked at getting into, it's not really that expensive.

Greyshadow
10-06-2014, 11:55
Although the current rulset actually works just fine with 500/600 point games.

I have found this as well, especially if the lists used are geared towards generating fun games at this size.

Snake1311
10-06-2014, 12:21
I have found this as well, especially if the lists used are geared towards generating fun games at this size.

They work fine with "filth" as well, the natural boundaries keep things in check, mostly. Certainly no worse than a 2-3k fluff list compared to a minmaxed one anyway. The three unit minimum actually makes you think at 500 :P

ewar
10-06-2014, 12:31
So hopefully it will get even better with the next edition.

I think we're in danger of creating some kind of optimism singularity if 9th ed is released and it fixes the bugs and creates a lovely intro level game for newbies. What will the internet do then?


Not to mention that the models they are putting out are superb and I love painting them as well. Yes, they are very expensive and probably 1/4 over priced. But compared to other hobbies I have looked at getting into, it's not really that expensive.

I'm with you there - some of the kits GW are pushing out for WFB are just amazing. I can't think of a single one of the 15 armies I wouldn't happily collect just as a painter and collector. Except the gyrocopter, that is one tubby little flyer. The rest are ace though.

HelloKitty
10-06-2014, 13:22
I think we're in danger of creating some kind of optimism singularity if 9th ed is released and it fixes the bugs and creates a lovely intro level game for newbies. What will the internet do then?

The internet-creature would asplode.

Emissary
10-06-2014, 13:25
My gaming group has already decided that if we don't like the direction of 9th edition we'll just keep playing 8th edition, especially if they manage to get all the hardback books out. A few small house rule tweaks (like rerolls to hit on ASF only if you have a higher I) and we think it would pretty much be perfect.

stortotta
10-06-2014, 13:43
Been playing on and off for almost 20 years, and I agree, 8th ed is probably the most fun I've had!

Petey
10-06-2014, 18:43
So you never played 6th edition with Ravening Hordes?

I'm extremely curious to see exactly what happens with the new edition, but I am not counting on the "FOC" as it is in fantasy to stick around much anymore. GW for the longest time has been embracing customizing options, and I'm leery of it being amped to the nth degree. Especially if they decide they need to sell more Rare kits.

Quoted for truth. 6th was the best. Preach on.

Ramius4
10-06-2014, 20:22
6th was the best.

The rules set itself was almost as good as 7th or 8th. Until army books came out. And before that, when it was just Ravening Hordes? I guess if you enjoyed flavorless, generic armies and characters that would be fine.

People tend to forget that 6th-7th were damn near indentical (and that 7th fixed a lot of issues that 6th had). It was really the army books that made them different.

Hudson Gameover
10-06-2014, 22:01
Warhammer is the best its ever been. Maybe to much magic.

Tupinamba
10-06-2014, 22:06
Nah, can´t really say that. I like 8th and have fun with it, but there simply are too many points I don´t like, such as LOS, terrain in general, the tendency of excessive concentration in few big units, random charges, uber magic, reduced usefulness of ld characters (to easy to bumb ld of mages up with std of discipline), leadership in general etc.

Yes, armies are more balanced, but that´s not a question of the core rules. What I like is having the game centered around infantry blocks. But I think GW could make this work far better and hopw that 9th will address the issues I don´t like, instead of taking away army limitations and going for "unbound" in fantasy.

Just Tony
11-06-2014, 00:29
Quoted for truth. 6th was the best. Preach on.

Danke, but a few things DID get duffed up because of...


The rules set itself was almost as good as 7th or 8th. Until army books came out. And before that, when it was just Ravening Hordes? I guess if you enjoyed flavorless, generic armies and characters that would be fine.

People tend to forget that 6th-7th were damn near indentical (and that 7th fixed a lot of issues that 6th had). It was really the army books that made them different.

I don't feel the Ravening Hordes list were completely flavorless, just bare-bones. They needed fleshed out, yes, but the books wound up throwing a few things WAY out of whack. "Hey, let's create a FOC of sorts for WFB! Hey, let's allow Chaos to throw that damn thing out the window!" "Hey, let's give Empire black powder D6 extra inches on the first shot and not charge them points for it!" I could go on.

The only things I felt were wrong with 6th that were rulebook problems were fixed in 7th with the Insane Courage rule and the rule that killed the Mage Battery.

SteveW
11-06-2014, 06:28
Anyone that thinks 6th was a good rule set must not remember "lapping round".

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ewar
11-06-2014, 07:57
Anyone that thinks 6th was a good rule set must not remember "lapping round".

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Haha excellent point. Though I don't recall any combats lasting into the second round so not sure I ever saw it used.

Epicene
11-06-2014, 08:02
Anyone that thinks 6th was a good rule set must not remember "lapping round".

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I remember lapping around, but I also remember no-one in either of the two gaming groups I used to attend OR the Gamesworkshop store actually using the rule. :P

StygianBeach
11-06-2014, 08:23
I remember lapping around, but I also remember no-one in either of the two gaming groups I used to attend OR the Gamesworkshop store actually using the rule. :P

I saw it used... it was cool in theory.

Mr. Ultra
11-06-2014, 08:35
I can't think of a single one of the 15 armies I wouldn't happily collect just as a painter and collector. Except the gyrocopter, that is one tubby little flyer. The rest are ace though.

Even Beastmen, with their handsome Minotaurs and beautifully sculpted Razorgor?

Spiney Norman
11-06-2014, 10:16
For us who design games but don't play warhammer right now, please try listing what you like about 8th -- what makes it more fun and enjoyable?

E.g. : "random charge ranges makes it much more fun that 7th"

Actually it has less to do with the core rules, and more to do with the individual army books in my opinion. There are a number of things I don't like about the Core rules of 8th. Both 6th and 7th editions were ruined by the runaway train of power creep that resulted in the latter books of the edition drastically outclassing the earlier ones by a significant margin. Leaving the three previous edition books aside (Brets, beasts & Skaven) they have done a really excellent job at broadly balancing the different armies this edition. Sure there were annoying slip up like the warrior daemon prince and banner of the world dragon, but otherwise the game is very balanced considering it has had 4 years of continuous development.

Personally I dislike random charge distance almost as much as I dislike mysterious terrain and (IMHO) the greatest sin of the warhammer design team ever... True line of sight. All of these things take away from the tactics of the game and make it more about luck, what I hate most about true LoS is that it makes beautifully designed dramatically posed models a distinct disadvantage, because if they were modelled differently they could potentially be completely out of sight.

However I can still enjoy playing a game with those rules if I know I am not severely disadvantaged by my choice of army going into the game, which is the feeling that one of you always gets when beginning a game of 40k.

Ograr
11-06-2014, 11:37
I got introduced to Warhammer late Sixth edition by watching a battle or two, had my first few battles of my own in 7th but only got serious right about when 8th came out so I don't have a lot of experience with anything other than 8th.

The experience I do have with 7th is a bunch of high elves cutting down the first rank of my large block of Chaos Warriors and my opponent shrugging and saying "Yeah, they can't attack back now because they're too far away. I win combat."
Seeing that removed in 8th absolves it of any wrongdoing in other parts of the rules.

Vulgarsty
11-06-2014, 12:13
This latest 40k, is the first 40k edition I haven’t, and won’t bother buying. It’s already something of a kiddies point and click game and this unbound drivel has finally turned me off. That said, I am really enjoying WFB, but with all the rumours of 9th going all strange on us, my group are considering locking down 8th edition but using the following top 10 house rules to address the remaining issues in an otherwise good rule set.



1) tweaking the miscast table to d6 + PD and making higher worse. I had ruminated on 3 – gain your two power dice back, 4-6 = nothing, 7& 8 being a hit + end to casting, 9 = hit + lose power dice, 10 = hit + end phase, 11 hit + lose levels, 12 template + warp roll off)



2) rolling for winds of magic at the start of each full turn, so that will stand for both players goes in that turn, complete with effects eg for Demon players on their go.



3) Requiring a unit to have a rank bonus to be steadfast as well as more ranks (ie people behind you to stop you running away)



4) neatening some obvious discrepancies ie so you still get parry with magic HW/shield combo, poisoned attacks with KB, can still roll to wound to see if they get a 6, flaming banner not applying to magic weapons, basing all warmachines etc



5) MR & wards should be allowed against “doom spells” (Dwellers, Pit, 13th etc) MR should be allowed to avoid effect of hexes etc



6) Randomise artillery hits between monster and mount – clearly on occasion both will be hit, but unusually ie on a 5 or 6



7) Half Victory Points for destroying over half a unit, half VP’s for a fleeing unit at game end - encourages making that turn 6 charge.



8) Single man or MI sized figures/cavalry/beasts (ie not monsters), shouldn't be able to force redirects - they should instead be made to "close the door" with their chargers instead to represent them being swept aside



9) Crumble only affecting undead once on the death of necromancer/Hierophant rather than every turn


10) Infantry can charge too far, may be M+ best single die of two D6 whilst swiftstride retains best two dice of three.

ewar
11-06-2014, 12:53
Even Beastmen, with their handsome Minotaurs and beautifully sculpted Razorgor?

The gor and ungor ranges are great - the razorgor I will admit is something of a low point. However the minotaurs look fine in non-GW studio paint scheme. Overall I think Beastmen are a decent range. I guess the one army that does nothing for me is Daemons - going monogod looks too samey, going multi god looks too kaleidoscopic - not my taste at all.

So I'll switch my earlier comment to 14/15 armies :)


Personally I dislike random charge distance almost as much

When 8th rumours were coming out I was dreading this and I absolutely hated it for the first 5 games I played. Then suddenly I realised that it made games so much more fun and it really is a big decision sometimes whether to risk a charge or not. Before, with a fixed 20" or 16" it was ludicrously simple to set up multiple crushing charges on infantry units. It also forces a player to think about redundancy, whereas they didn't before, it was just a guaranteed thing.

Taking away the huge benefit to chargers has also helped mitigate when you fail your charge (likely setting up your opponent to get an easy one).

SteveW
11-06-2014, 13:54
I remember lapping around, but I also remember no-one in either of the two gaming groups I used to attend OR the Gamesworkshop store actually using the rule. :P




because it was horrible. I remember my black Orcs beating some hammerers and lapping, then being charged by warriors, losing but stcking, getting lapped, and charging in some wolf riders. We sat there for ages trying to figure out where casualties were removed from at that point and instead just removed it all together.





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Urgat
11-06-2014, 14:06
Was lapping around still in 6th ed? I though it was last seen during 5th, but I may be mistaken obviously.


Personally I dislike random charge distance[...] All of these things take away from the tactics of the game and make it more about luck

Ah, I really like random charge distances, because I've never considered that infuriating shuffling around business to get just away from the opponent's charging distance "tactics". I have other, colorful names for it, but certainly not tactics :D That and step up are really my two favourite changes from 8th ed, yes, even before steadfast (though it's right behind). Especially when you combine them together. "Oh, my elves march 10", so I'll just wait there at 9" from your gobs, and I'll charge you next turn, remove your first rank and watch you run. Naaah, you can't do anything about it, your fault for your support units squabbling and that one rolling a we'll show them, you sucker." Well now I can still have a unit happily walking ahead like a blissful band of idiots, leaving the rest of the army behind, and not think "ah well, they're gone" anymore. Because if the guy stops at 9", well, maybe I can still try the charge (though initiative order and step up don't make that vital at all anymore), another good point), and if I fail, I won't autobreak anymore when he gets to me, I might even kill a couple elves back. Such luxury! It's the way the rules work together that make the game so enjoying to me. My friends get to slaughter my gobs litterraly by the dozens now, which they love to bit, and my gobs got to stay there and maybe save the day, which I love just as much.
On the balance front, I got a pretty interesting 50/50 W/L ratio, which is all the data I need to know regarding 8th ed balance. I tell you, it wasn't 50/50 in the previous editions against most armies, that's for sure.
I'm really glad WFB is not a "whoever charges first wins" game anymore. Let's be honest, from 4th up to 7th, it was pretty much 100% the case unless you were pilling high toughness and ward saves sky high.

Petey
11-06-2014, 14:42
The rules set itself was almost as good as 7th or 8th. Until army books came out. And before that, when it was just Ravening Hordes? I guess if you enjoyed flavorless, generic armies and characters that would be fine.

People tend to forget that 6th-7th were damn near indentical (and that 7th fixed a lot of issues that 6th had). It was really the army books that made them different.

That s a short sighted and specious thing to say, I think. Flavorless generic? Yeah not really, more like streamlined stats that made sense, upgrades in stats meaning something because not everything had s and t 4, the first magic system you could plan around, a magic system that you didn't need to drag around another box for, magic items by book rather than big box o' crap. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to like/love about 8th (no more charge dance, measure everything, step up, and steadfast being the best of them) but for shear improvements over what came before, 6th was the best, and 7th f'ed it up

Epicene
11-06-2014, 18:30
Ah, I really like random charge distances, because I've never considered that infuriating shuffling around business to get just away from the opponent's charging distance "tactics".
I'm really glad WFB is not a "whoever charges first wins" game anymore. Let's be honest, from 4th up to 7th, it was pretty much 100% the case unless you were pilling high toughness and ward saves sky high.

It never really was that, to be fair - I ran a very defensive, quite static O&G in 6th that won a good 75% of the time. If you had a unit that was GOING to be charged in that way the real question was "where was the support?". Theres also the proverbial sacrificial lamb - that pawn which you let your opponent take so you can ram something nastier their way.

Back to 8th ED - Its the army books I enjoy from this edition more than anything. I don't feel like theres been TOO much power creeping and they're introduced a lot of funky models. I hope this becomes a "complete" edition, so GW have the space and scope to really work on the game more.

HelloKitty
11-06-2014, 18:35
The 1/8" dance-shuffle was very real. There was even a cartoon about the shuffle it remembers. Two armies charging across the distance at each other, then they stop and the musicians start playing and the two armies started dancing in the comic careful not to cross the imaginary charge line of 1/8". Then the beastman's foot crossed the line and the army looked at him scowling while the other army howled and charged.

Funny comic because the situation of the game reflected that so very well; this one thinks that it was absurd and that is why this one is ok with random charge distance. The shuffle-dance thing never happens anymore.

Epicene
11-06-2014, 18:46
You had so many tools at your disposal in Warhammer to tease\force\hinder. The 1" shuffle-dances baffles and amuses me. My gaming group would have lengthy discussions about how to avoid the dreaded standoff and what tactics to use.

Sexiest_hero
11-06-2014, 18:48
You know I never really cared about the stance dance in 7th, because I played VC, Sure charge me I have like 19 power dice to your 4 dispel and will just raise untill I win by one and you have to roll snake eyes. I really think people who hate magic now NEVER faced 21 powerdice a turn Daemons of chaos. I mean you think purple sun was bad. I went to a grand tourny were 60 out of the 90 players ran daemons and the rest were VC (me) dark elves and a skaven player. They were the space marines of fantasy. When ever I think of something I don't like in 8th, I remember how it was worse in 7th,

Epicene
11-06-2014, 18:58
I'll agree - magic was mentally bad in 7th. Then again, Magic has nearly ALWAYS been a load of crud in Warhammer. Its always felt like a "game within a game" where the outcome will often settle the entire battle.

Urgat
11-06-2014, 19:03
I kindda liked the 5th ed magic. Though it had spells that would make our current "super spells" pale with envy :p


It never really was that, to be fair - I ran a very defensive, quite static O&G in 6th that won a good 75% of the time.
Well, if you used a static list that didn't rely on charges, maybe that could explain why you didn't see it? I'm sure dwarfs wouldn't feel it either.


If you had a unit that was GOING to be charged in that way the real question was "where was the support?".
First option, like in my example, animosity. Second option, that bothersome thing in front called "opponent's army" ;) They have a way to, well, get in the way.


Theres also the proverbial sacrificial lamb - that pawn which you let your opponent take so you can ram something nastier their way.
I'm not the best player in the world, no doubt, but I know my sneaky tricks. The problem is, with a (non-static) goblin army, things rarely go the way you want. I'm honestly glad for you you didn't experiment that, but it seems otherwise pretty widely spred. Most people I talk with about previous editions hate the chuffle, for a good reason. For my part, I don't play power players (I put a stop to that during 5th ed), but even for very relaxed players, it was just common sense to avoid being charged, and put yourself in a position to charge. Because the charge would most likely win you the charge. It was unavoidable.
For the guy who mentions the 7th ed VC: bleh :p I played my VC only once during 7th ed (you can tell I was REALLY ecperimented with it), against an Empire player. I did whatever, with no rhyme nor reason, and I absolutly crushed the poor sod. Sure, VC didn't care about being charged, I'm not sure they cared about anything at all :p (well, besides a cannonball to the face of the general, of course. But who would be afraid of that when you can just summon a wall of LoS-blocking zombies right in front of the cannons? :p). On that last comment, it makes me think of something: at least true LoS prevents that, when I pulled that one, I felt dirty. Needless to say, it was a massacre, and I shelved the undead.

Epicene
11-06-2014, 19:17
3rd Ed had the worst, imo. That spell selection was retarded - magical vortexes that would SPAWN Greater Demons ect... and KEEP ON spawning them. :I

Sexiest_hero
11-06-2014, 20:21
What edition had the Brittionan Lance formation that was pretty much an Arrow head of Bull@#$%. That edition sucked.

Grok
11-06-2014, 20:57
What edition had the Brittionan Lance formation that was pretty much an Arrow head of Bull@#$%. That edition sucked.

You had that in fifth, though I don't know if it was implemented earlier then that.

Urgat
11-06-2014, 22:08
Nah, only fifth. I really liked the arrow formation lance. Rules for flanking etc were too complicated, but it looked so kickass (besides my bro really enjoyed how it made ranking them up so much easier :p).

SteveW
11-06-2014, 22:24
You had that in fifth, though I don't know if it was implemented earlier then that.




only 5th. Before that bretonnians favored cannon to lances and were a foot knight centric army.





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GrandmasterWang
12-06-2014, 09:32
What edition had the Brittionan Lance formation that was pretty much an Arrow head of Bull@#$%. That edition sucked.

Ah the old Arrow head..... a triangle in a game of rectangles. .. just didt gel with the game Mechanics....

Looked amazing though, the new Bret lances (3 wide) just dont look as boss.

Anyone else remember flying high haha. Gg to the army with no flyer vs any rude list.

7th edition magic was the worst!!! I remember 20 power dice (daemons) vs 2 dispell dice situations. .. im hoping 7th edition 40k isnt as bad with unlimited power dice generation.

8th Edition is awesome. If 9th isn't an improvement im sticking with this edition for my friends (both war and chill style)

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TheKingInYellow
13-06-2014, 15:19
The worst thing in the history of WHFB was the Black Gem. Put it on a 40pt Goblin on a Spider and take any other character in the game out with no saves.

lybban
13-06-2014, 15:25
The worst thing in the history of WHFB was the Black Gem. Put it on a 40pt Goblin on a Spider and take any other character in the game out with no saves.

There was a combo way back with the black amulet and another item that gave back the caused wound on a 4+ if you had both the attacking character got 75 % of the wounds caused himself


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GrandmasterWang
17-06-2014, 01:01
The worst thing in the history of WHFB was the Black Gem. Put it on a 40pt Goblin on a Spider and take any other character in the game out with no saves.

Oh... I remember. .. the black gem of gnar I believe. Couldn't you escape the stadis bubble on a 6 or something?

I gotta say I love its name. The black gem of gnar was really the black gem of "nah you cant use that character. .. I just took him out of the game with my gem"

Dark elves still have the Black Amulet and im glad. Evil buggers.

Heart of Woe on a Hobgoblin hero almost killed the White Dwarf in a battle report I remember.

Item combos in hero hammer would leave the vampire blender lord of today crying tears of blood in a fetal position

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beerbeard
17-06-2014, 02:09
I think our local group will stay with 8th if 9th is too weird. We pretty much play as a contained bunch, so we can do that if we chose.

That said, I love this edition a lot, and WHFB is my favorite game now. I've pretty much dumped 40k, selling off two of my armies, and my 3rd is about to go. Then, I'll have enough cash to start my 4th Fantasy Army: Tomb Kings!

GrandmasterWang
18-06-2014, 05:14
Rock on Tomb Kings... rock on!



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Brother Haephestus
18-06-2014, 08:50
Bro is Very Happy with 8th edition. Probably my favorite version (been here since 3rd). I'm going to enjoy 9th, whatever it brings, but I am sure glad I have 8th on the shelf.