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Epicene
09-06-2014, 20:09
I will freely admit - this is my least favorite thing about Warhammer. More than anything else. Do you like it? If not - what would you do to change it?

I would -

- Each Turn have a dice off to "seize initiative" - Highest Initiative Character + D6
- Dice-off winner decides if they go 1st or 2nd this turn in moving.
- 1st player moves and announces charges, then the 2nd player
- Dice-off winner decides if they go 1st or 2nd this turn in magic. One pool of dice for each army to represent both casting and dispel
- 1st player casts magic and keeps remainder as dispel. 2nd player keeps remaining dice and uses them to cast.
- 1st player chooses first unit to shoot, then taken in turns.
- 1st player chooses first combat, then taken in turns. Only one combat round

- Piling dispel\casting dice into one pool makes a player think before he just chucks all his dice on the table as it leaves them with nothing to defend with after. Likewise the defending player won't want to chuck all their dispel dice at the table, or they'll have nothing left to cast with.

- Alternating shooting prevents one army nerfing the others shooting potential before its even had a chance to be used. I have seen this happen, too.

I could be rambling - in which case. Ignore me P:

HelloKitty
09-06-2014, 20:13
It plays other games like Battletech and LOTR that have integrated turns that it would prefer Warhammer use.

Ramius4
09-06-2014, 20:15
I could be rambling - in which case. Ignore me P:

I think you're rambling ;)

In all seriousness though, IGUG works fine. I've seen all sorts of ideas on how to do it differently over the past 21 years. I've tried a lot of them too.

The biggest problem with all of them is that none of them work without making changes to the actual mechanics of the game. Warhammer is simply not designed with anything else in mind.


It plays other games like Battletech and LOTR that have integrated turns that it would prefer Warhammer use.

War of the Ring has a great system, yes. But it's designed for it. :)

Bladelord
09-06-2014, 20:17
Sounds like you should try out the Lotr ruleset.

Katastrophe
09-06-2014, 20:33
We played 6th 7th and some early 8th that way, worked just fine, fast brutal games, really tactical since you rarely wanted to be counter charged after you declared your charge

We only did one dice off per turn at leadership + d6

We divided the elements (moving or acting units) as evenly as possible to determine what you could move each each alternating phase if you had 2x the units of the opponent you could move 2 units to their 1. msu was far more popular then big blocks for that reason.

We also limited each Mage to their dice instead of a big pool. Made choosing to cast with all your dice very risky (in 8 we gave 1 die per level to each Mage and rolled 1 d6 to split as "pool" rare 6 dicing. We also kept double 1s as miscast and double 6 as irresistible. With each happening if both in same roll

Epicene
09-06-2014, 20:38
Sounds like you should try out the Lotr ruleset.

I quite like LotR. Not a fan of War Of The Ring, though....

Ramius4
09-06-2014, 20:41
I quite like LotR. Not a fan of War Of The Ring, though....

Blasphemy! :p One of my favorite games.

Spiney Norman
09-06-2014, 21:58
Blasphemy! :p One of my favorite games.

Oh come on, War of the ring was probably the first time when I realised that GW cared more about a quick cash grab than about turning an honest product by delivering a good quality product. They rushed out a poorly thought-out, broken rules set that required oceans and oceans of models to play, at the same time as halving the number of models in their troop boxes and then never supported the system again.

The movement/initiative system is nothing short of idiotic, the character challenge system is flat out broken, magic is gut-wrenchingly overpowered and you need upwards of 48 infantry models to form a workable unit, it is unquestionably the worst game they have ever designed, I've played maybe half a dozen games by combining my Haradrim and Easterling armies from lotr until I realised I would need to double my collection of infantry models if I wanted to build a vaguely competitive army, then I just gave up and went back to lotr.

I also seem to remember they brought out a second book detailing special formations for the game which required you to buy even more models than the staggering amount you already needed to play the core game, because apparently some people were gullible enough to spend that much money on lotr models.

EvanM
09-06-2014, 22:19
I think warhammer is a lot more complicated than LotR but perhaps....

wanna test battle it and tell us how it goes??

yes i dont think anyone should get units wiped out turn one before they move.

The bearded one
09-06-2014, 22:27
- Each Turn have a dice off to "seize initiative" - Highest Initiative Character + D6

Because **** dwarfs :p


In a sense the suggestion is still a version of 'I go I go', except you're able to roll and steal a more advantageous turn order. That also makes it really hard to make a good prediction of the coming few turns, because one person can roll well (or play elves and be nearly guaranteed it) and then construct an order so he has 2 turns right in a row and completely dance and flank around the immobile enemy.

Avian
09-06-2014, 22:30
At one point I was tinkering with a system where you'd activate a unit and afterwards it would take a Ld test. If passed you could activate a second unit, otherwise your opponent got to activate one instead.

Ramius4
09-06-2014, 23:39
Oh come on, War of the ring was probably the first time when I realised that GW cared more about a quick cash grab than about turning an honest product by delivering a good quality product. They rushed out a poorly thought-out, broken rules set that required oceans and oceans of models to play, at the same time as halving the number of models in their troop boxes and then never supported the system again.

Odd. My experience with the game has been completely the opposite of that. The challenge rules were broken, but easily fixed with house rule. Otherwise I've got literally zero complaints about the game system. Oh well, I suppose we can agree to disagree. :)


I also seem to remember they brought out a second book detailing special formations for the game which required you to buy even more models than the staggering amount you already needed to play the core game, because apparently some people were gullible enough to spend that much money on lotr models.

My group just uses Warhammer miniatures as proxies. Besides, if you enjoy playing and wanted to buy the miniatures, it's also no more expensive than say... Warhammer. :p

theunwantedbeing
10-06-2014, 00:01
I will freely admit - this is my least favorite thing about Warhammer. More than anything else. Do you like it? If not - what would you do to change it?

I like I-go-you-go personally.
Things are set and there's no worry about going second or the enemy getting multiple successive turns in a row.

My only complaints would be the over value of going first and the inability to be reactive.
Having the option to voluntarily flee when shot at/attacked by magic would be nice.

MiyamatoMusashi
10-06-2014, 00:17
The biggest problem with all of them is that none of them work without making changes to the actual mechanics of the game. Warhammer is simply not designed with anything else in mind.

True. IGOUGO sucks, I have come to believe, but you can't change "just that" about Warhammer and nothing else.

Designing a non-IGOUGO replacement for Warhammer would be a ground-up rewrite, not a tweak. I think it would be possible to design a game that is simply better, by so doing (and other games from other companies are working towards just that), but it couldn't be retrofitted onto the current Warhammer rules.

Ramius4
10-06-2014, 00:36
True. IGOUGO sucks, I have come to believe, but you can't change "just that" about Warhammer and nothing else.

Designing a non-IGOUGO replacement for Warhammer would be a ground-up rewrite, not a tweak. I think it would be possible to design a game that is simply better, by so doing (and other games from other companies are working towards just that), but it couldn't be retrofitted onto the current Warhammer rules.

Agreed. I'm all for non IGOUGO systems for other games, but not for Warhammer as it currently stands.

There's plenty of games out there that have alternative turn systems if you do some digging.

SteveW
10-06-2014, 01:40
I have tried a game played like x-wing where all movement is declared in secret and revealed in initiative order. Then the higher initiative units can ld test to change orders. It was fun but took forever.

Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

Drachen_Jager
10-06-2014, 04:20
Why does every wunderkind with a bunch of new ideas seem to think crippling the combat phase is the answer to all their problems?

You're proposing there should only be 6 close combat phases instead of 12? So uber-magic and gunlines rule the world, while anyone who actually wants to fight is crippled?

Grumblegrumble.

Skywave
10-06-2014, 04:43
Because **** dwarfs :p


I think you mean Tomb Kings here :) I'm sorry for the Dwarves, but they lost their titles of slowest in Warhammer a long time ago, you'll have to adapt to that ;)

You guys have regular characters with ini 4 and 5, talk about fast bugger! We mighty Tomb Kings are capped at ini 3 for everything but 1 special characters, we are master of slow now!

Lorcryst
10-06-2014, 10:26
The problem I see with any kind of non-IGOUGO system is this : luck.

Against someone lucky, you'll ALWAYS go second in all phases, no matter what you do.

Some armies can survive that, but not all.

Bloodknight
10-06-2014, 10:39
Against someone lucky, you'll ALWAYS go second in all phases, no matter what you do.

Streak compensation. Assuming you roll for initiative with 2d6, the loser of the current round adds +1 to his next roll.
i.e. I win init. Next turn I roll 2d6, you roll 2d6+1. I still win, next turn you roll 2d6+2.

That said, I like alternating movement without shooting. It can have some interesting outcomes, like in BattleTech, where it's actually better to be the guy who doesn't have to move the first unit (since damage happens at the same time for all units, movement is where you win the game).

dalezzz
10-06-2014, 10:59
I think I go u go is fine , not against other systems I suppose but I've no problems with it

MiyamatoMusashi
10-06-2014, 11:13
The problem I see with any kind of non-IGOUGO system is this : luck.

Against someone lucky, you'll ALWAYS go second in all phases, no matter what you do.

Some armies can survive that, but not all.

I can think of at least five different "non-IGOUGO" systems, and only one of them (LotR-style IGOUGO but with phases) has that problem.

Conversely, in IGOUGO, if you lose the roll for first turn, you get exactly that problem you just mentioned.

I'm not sure you really fully understand the question.

Greyshadow
10-06-2014, 11:49
I have found non-I go-you go systems quite exhausting! When do you get to take a break to sip your beer and eat your chips?!!

Yes, for skirmish type games other turn sequences can work quite well but I honestly like Warhammer the way it is thank you! :P

Lorcryst
10-06-2014, 11:57
I can think of at least five different "non-IGOUGO" systems, and only one of them (LotR-style IGOUGO but with phases) has that problem.

Conversely, in IGOUGO, if you lose the roll for first turn, you get exactly that problem you just mentioned.

I'm not sure you really fully understand the question.

Well, for example with my Night Goblins, I actually want to go second, because I play them at the back of the table waiting to launch my Fanatics and blasting away with Warmachines and Spells ... same thing with my Dwarfs.

But with DoC and WoC armies, I want to control the table with movement and placement of my units, and being forced into a reactive style of play really hurts that.

Also, I find that the ability to plan your moves with a fixed I-go-you-go turn sequence is invaluable ... with a random turn order in a game that already has lots of random elements, you're at the mercy of the dice. And that's bad in my book.

Of course, a game designed from the ground up to have random turn sequences can be really good ... I just don't like that kind of randomness and luck.

dalezzz
10-06-2014, 12:16
I have found non-I go-you go systems quite exhausting! When do you get to take a break to sip your beer and eat your chips?!!

Yes, for skirmish type games other turn sequences can work quite well but I honestly like Warhammer the way it is thank you! :P


This is is as very important point! Think of the beer!

rwphillipsstl
10-06-2014, 13:52
The biggest non-IGOUGO system out there is Piquet, which has a host of period supplements (it is a historical ruleset) and a fantasy standalone supplement called Hostile Realms that is terrific. Piquet uses special cards, for movement, reloading weapons, morale checks, etc., and cards are turned over one at a time and a player acts on them or not in his phase. It does a MUCH better job of reflecting the fog and unpredictability of battle, BUT many players get turned off by the inability to fully control the flow of the game and the long streaks of initiative that sometimes result in one player getting to do very little while the other runs all over the place (though how else could you recreate battles like Zama or some of Frederick the Great's battles). It is a love it or hate it system. The Hostile Realms supplement is a pared-down, less crazy version that utilizes the tamer and newer version of the Piquet family, a game called "Field of Battle" that is also card-driven but initiative is less streaky.

The only other thing you could do, and I have played around with this in other systems, is to introduce a pack of normal playing cards, one suit per player, and jigger a procedure whereby you alternate moving units or taking other actions based on each turn of the card--but as someone pointed out above, you are completely reworking the turn/phase sequence when you do this. NOW, I personally believe the standard IGOUGO phase sequence is not so holy and perfect that it couldn't stand reworking, but that is not everyone's cup of tea, and the criticism is certainly valid that at that point you aren't playing your father's Warhammer anymore.

if Warhammer required activation tests like Warmaster and the like, where you had to roll under Morale value on 2d6 to be able to do anything other than move straight ahead a full move, it might encourage the use of smaller units and change the nature of the game for the better, because Deathstars and the like could become as vulnerable on the tabletop as they would be in real life. But, the activation test system itself can be very frustrating, as I have seen many, many games where players sat there unable to do anything with key units because they kept rolling poorly (that is, in theory, one advantage to card-driven games, in that while they can be streaky you always eventually get to move whereas with dice rolling there is no guarantee you will ever roll well).

Verm1s
10-06-2014, 17:32
The problem I see with any kind of non-IGOUGO system is this : luck.

Against someone lucky, you'll ALWAYS go second in all phases, no matter what you do.

Some armies can survive that, but not all.

That's right! Non-igougo systems are broken because they unfairly nerf unlucky people!

LUCK

REALLY (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130815124007/transformers-legends/images/c/c4/Triple-facepalm.jpg)

Ramius4
10-06-2014, 17:41
broken because they unfairly nerf unlucky people!

I must be completely broken. I've been getting hit by that particular nerf bat for over 20 years :p

underscore
10-06-2014, 18:14
Of course, a game designed from the ground up to have random turn sequences can be really good ... I just don't like that kind of randomness and luck.
Non-IGYG doesn't mean randomised initative though - why are you under that impression?

Lorcryst
10-06-2014, 18:44
Non-IGYG doesn't mean randomised initative though - why are you under that impression?

From the ideas in the first post, with dice rolls to determine who goes first ... I honestly have never played something else than IGYG games in the last 25 years, and I don't see the problem with it ... such timeless classics as chess, go and checkers use that simple and effective format :p

Once again, I must thank Verm1s for his rudeness and trolling of everything I wrote ... I'm not a native english speaker, so some things might well be lost between my brain and my keyboard, but man, ease off ...

Ramius4
10-06-2014, 19:02
I'm not a native english speaker, so some things might well be lost between my brain and my keyboard,

You communicate just fine Lorcryst :)

Spiney Norman
10-06-2014, 19:11
That's right! Non-igougo systems are broken because they unfairly nerf unlucky people!

LUCK

REALLY (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130815124007/transformers-legends/images/c/c4/Triple-facepalm.jpg)

I assume he is talking about lotr here because there are plenty of non-IGOUGO systems that don't use a dice roll to decide the order of action, x wing/attack wing are good examples of that. In the context of lotr it is fair to say that a lot of the game is decided by that single priority roll-off at the start of the turn, he may not have expressed it very well, but the main problem with lotr is that the priority mechanic makes it a very random game, rather than a tactical one. The most cursory glance at any of the threads concerning chaos daemons in 8th edition will tell you that most players consider a high degree of randomness in a wargame to be a bad thing because it reduces the importance of player skill.

I actually wonder if a system similar to x-wing/attack wing might work based off the Ld or Int stat. Obviously the pre-determined, hidden manouvre dial wouldn't be practical in wfb, but units moving in initiative order as well as attacking would make that stat more useful and give an added incentive to buy champions (assuming they would boost the int stat of the unit, or perhaps give it +1 etc) and even more to add combat characters to units to take advantage of their superior stat values.

Its something that would clearly need to be properly thought through and tweaked accordingly, the magic phase would have to be completely reworked (but I don't think that is such a bad thing), but every other phase could simply proceed in initiative order on a unit-by-unit basis. They would also need to figure out a satisfactory way of resolving ties, because they would happen a lot.

Ramius4
10-06-2014, 19:31
the magic phase would have to be completely reworked (but I don't think that is such a bad thing), but every other phase could simply proceed in initiative order on a unit-by-unit basis.

From having used various unit-based activation systems with both fantasy and 40K, I can also tell you that you need to re-work close combat (since you effectively cut the number of close combat phases in half). And add several rules to govern movement, and beginning/end of turn rules.

Warhammer is just not designed to handle this type of turn system.

Moshes
10-06-2014, 20:51
It may be off the topic but I recall the initiative points of DBA/DBX working very fine for me. You donīt have to change the whole system to fit in WH, only the amount of tactical moves you can make in one turn. It keeps the battle flow dynamic and sets a degree of challenge and randomness on every round. OTOH, magic doesnīt adapt well with this, and shooting may become problematic if every unit is shooting in every turn. Besides, It would be positive to take a look at how this system works on HOTT, if only to expand the options rewriting the rules.

Tupinamba
10-06-2014, 21:31
I like the systems that come near to a "wego" situation. Like the wings of glory variants, where both sides give orders secretly and movement is than executed by iniciative and with some degree of possibilities for correction.

Failing that, I like the lotr/wotr model, of alternating movement, than shooting/magic and simultaneous combat. Not only is it faster, but imo it also makes for a tactically better game and takes a little away from the potentially huge advantage of going first in a pure Igyg system.

Hudson Gameover
10-06-2014, 21:58
Warhammer 8th, the best table top game ever and final fantasy 7, the best video game ever both say IGOUGO is awsome.

Rogue
11-06-2014, 03:02
I have seen it in other games like Armies of Arcana. It is an interesting idea that does change the dynamic of the game.

Charistoph
11-06-2014, 06:01
I have found non-I go-you go systems quite exhausting! When do you get to take a break to sip your beer and eat your chips?!!

You drink when you need or want, you munch when you need or want. The point of beer and chips is that they don't take a huge amount of time (like an opponent's turn) to partake or consume, but can be sampled in relatively small amounts while making decisions or your opponent is doing their thing.

It's not like you're eating a pizza slice here.

Ramius4
11-06-2014, 06:23
It's not like you're eating a pizza slice here.

Which, quite clearly, requires one's full attention ;)

SteveW
11-06-2014, 06:26
Which, quite clearly, requires one's full attention ;)

That is why our lord(or Lady) gave us sammiches.








Sent from my lumina 925 using ninja's

Katastrophe
11-06-2014, 21:28
From having used various unit-based activation systems with both fantasy and 40K, I can also tell you that you need to re-work close combat (since you effectively cut the number of close combat phases in half). And add several rules to govern movement, and beginning/end of turn rules.

Warhammer is just not designed to handle this type of turn system.

I have played it with the changes spoken of and never found a need to rework the CC or the shooting phases. In fact, the game has proceeded with brutal close combats. The only change we made that had a big effect was allowing each unit to declare their charge on their movement phase rather than declaring them all at the beginning. What you ended up with was several multi unit combats.

Without actually playing it, its likely difficult to understand how it actually works.

Bloodknight
12-06-2014, 00:06
such timeless classics as chess, go and checkers use that simple and effective format

That's not what is meant with IGOUGO in this context, Lorcryst. For this discussion, IGOUGO means "I do everything with my army, you do everything with your army". i.e. it's as if in Chess, white moves all its figures, then black moves all its figures.