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Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 17:51
I was looking for alternative high elf models and I stumbled across mantic games kings of war. So I was wondering what their models are like compared to fantasy. Are they good quality? Are they durable? And is the kings of war ruleset any good in it's self. I would like to point out that for £14.99 you get 20 lovely looking spear elves and a foam case to carry them. Thanks in advance :)

Korinov
11-06-2014, 18:04
I have some of their dwarves plus the abyssal centaurs, and have seen (in person) some elves, undead and basileans as well. In any case this is a mere opinion, so always take it with a grain of salt.

With the exception of the undead (which are pretty good miniatures, probably better than their GW counterparts and way cheaper as well) most of Mantic's minis are just between average-to-poor and average-to-good. I wouldn't describe any as 'garbage' (as some GW fanboys tend to do) but it's undeniable some ranges have questionable quality (mostly the basilean men-at-arms, and the same is said about their goblins). Other ranges I'd describe just as "ok", such is the case of their dwarves and abbysal dwarf halfbreeds (centaurs), which I own.

However, it needs to be said that while the individual quality of each mini isn't superb, they usually look nice when mounted as a full regiment. Even the loathed men-at-arms have a decent look when organised in ranks... which honestly is Mantic minis' main goal. They're mostly cheap minis intended to fill in your ranks. Obviously they won't steal the spotlight from higher quality, more expensive miniatures, but that's not their goal either. Even the company motto is building big armies.

My advice is to give those elves a try, and don't be discouraged by the usual rant of the typical GW fanboy who has actually never seen a Mantic miniature in person (not implying everyone saying Mantic minis are ***** is a GW fanboy, but tends to be the case a lot of the time).

Urgat
11-06-2014, 18:09
I really don't like them (with the notable exception of the zombies, imho very good, if only their poses weren't so exagerated...), but, well, opinions, you know. What I'd recommand, what I usually do actually, when I want to try a new range, I get a couple minis off ebay or any similar website. It's cheap, and you know what you get, that way.

Epicene
11-06-2014, 18:14
Mantic miniatures are horrible at all. They're nice for what they are and great for the cost. Whilst I prefer the look of most of GWs minis - I love the Abyssal Dwarfs and might have to get some ;)

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 18:14
I only play in a group of friends really so GW fanboy's won't be a problem. Getting some isn't exactly going to hurt my budget either. The main thing I care about is if they are brittle because I don't like models breaking every time I touch them. I usually play for theme so I will only be getting the elf models I like. Are the rules good, just I case I ever need a break from fantasy? Ohh and thanks for the reply!!

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 18:18
I really don't like them (with the notable exception of the zombies, imho very good, if only their poses weren't so exagerated...), but, well, opinions, you know. What I'd recommand, what I usually do actually, when I want to try a new range, I get a couple minis off ebay or any similar website. It's cheap, and you know what you get, that way.
I much prefer their spearmen over the conehead elf spearmen even with the exagerated poses. I haven't really looked at any of the other ranges so I have no opinion on them and does anyone know how to edit the thread title, I said if instead of of andi can't find an explanation in the FAQ

theshoveller
11-06-2014, 18:23
I own a load of the undead. They're... ok. The skeletons aren't as good as the VC skeletons, but the difference in price is about right. They're half the price and half as good. The zombies are pretty good. The ghouls are... well, the ghouls consist of two very good sculpts that don't rank up with each other. You end up with a very fiddly, very repetitive unit, but the individual models are quite nice.

I've got very little good to say about the rest of the KoW line, however.

liddan
11-06-2014, 18:26
I bought the abyssal gargoyles from Mantic. I had to remove alot of horrible mold lines and flash. Their plastic is slightly harder than GWs but also quite brittle. I dropped one and her foot broke. In the same situation a GW-model would probably just bounce around.

It was worse than any experience I've had with GW-plastics and finecast but still, might very well be worth the possible slight extra effort to get models you like on the cheap.

The abyssal gargoyles don't rank up easilly. Luckily I'll use mine as furies so that won't be an issue most of the time. I have no info on the other models as far as ranking them up goes.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 18:29
It won't hurt to get one box and try them out and oh my the more I look at the elf line the more I love it, except the cats and dat dragon. Oh and liddan I think they look okay to rank won't be able to tell until I see them though :)

Claws Of The Raven
11-06-2014, 18:41
Well, Mortarion, unless a certain Tau player goes full WAAC mode after we.... win 7 games in a row, noone'll mind it. ;) you know of whom I speak.

yabbadabba
11-06-2014, 18:46
Mantic plastics are great for rank and file, because they are cheap and simple, but they are not going to win any prizes at all for quality. So here is an old wargamer's tactic. My dwarf army consists of a mixture of dwarves from a variety of sources, but the majority of the rank and file are GW and Mantic, and of those the Mantic fill back towards the front. It makes no difference on the battlefield, keeps your costs down and allows you to build bigger armies, more quickly.

And don't forget, if you are a gamer more than a painter, those rank and file can get away with a base coat and being dipped.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 18:48
Well, Mortarion, unless a certain Tau player goes full WAAC mode after we.... win 7 games in a row, noone'll mind it. ;) you know of whom I speak.

Not here Raven, we shall not speak his name here.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 18:54
Mantic plastics are great for rank and file, because they are cheap and simple, but they are not going to win any prizes at all for quality. So here is an old wargamer's tactic. My dwarf army consists of a mixture of dwarves from a variety of sources, but the majority of the rank and file are GW and Mantic, and of those the Mantic fill back towards the front. It makes no difference on the battlefield, keeps your costs down and allows you to build bigger armies, more quickly.

And don't forget, if you are a gamer more than a painter, those rank and file can get away with a base coat and being dipped.

you're advice is much appreciated. I am doing full detailed background for my elves annd am using the wild rider mounts as unit fillers which I think will look good with these as they are both skinny models. High elves may have a problem with the unit method you suggested though as I would imagine them to all look the same and I don't think they match as well dwarves do. I will use your methods for an abyssal chaos dwarf army though if I do one with infernal guard as front rank :)

Verm1s
11-06-2014, 20:49
I wouldn't describe any as 'garbage' (as some GW fanboys tend to do)

Well, I'm definitely not a GW fanboy so I don't use the word garbage. Calling the drakon riders, or the cat cavalry, or the basilean sisters 'garbage' would be an insult to garbage. :shifty:

It's slightly irritating to me that the two biggest fantasy plastics manufacturers (as much of a gap between them as there might be) include one with good prices but a general quality that's just below what I like, and one with generally good minis (with obvious exceptions) but an attitude to pricing that would shock british power companies.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 21:12
Are their any other companies worth looking at for alternative models that kind of meets the middle ground of decent price and decent quality or are these the only two?

Urgat
11-06-2014, 21:27
Not that I know of. There's Avatar of War and Raging Heroes, but they're both pretty much in the quality/price range as GW. If Reaper decided to make units, they'd be the ones, quality and good price, but unfortunately, besides a couple very limited exceptions (Pathfinder goblin warriors for instance, well, you got 4 different goblins, far from a unit), they haven't really tried yet.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 21:31
Mantic it is so, I am probably going to combine both them and GW but for the rank and file models it will be mantic. Not sure how bad the mould lines will be from mantic but I really like this model as a noble. Simple but effective http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/elves/product/elf-king-with-spear-blister.html

AlexHolker
11-06-2014, 21:37
Get the plastic undead or don't bother, I'd say. Pretty much everything else is crippled by mediocre sculpts, horrible casting or both.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 21:43
Yes but unlike gw I will be paying for what I get, I will get a box of spearmen and see what it is like. If it is too bad I will leave it :)

yabbadabba
11-06-2014, 22:16
Are their any other companies worth looking at for alternative models that kind of meets the middle ground of decent price and decent quality or are these the only two? It seesm to me that you are not really getting the advice you need here.

The majority of model companies that produce fantasy models are still doing them in metal - so expect a higher price point per model. Try Foundry, Scibor, Avatars (as mentioned, not bad for characters but its a toss up on quality vs price between them and GW). You have others, like Gamezone. It pays to shop around but as far as I am aware it might be just GW and Mantic who are into plastics.

Edit: My mate picked up a fairly good quality box of 30 elf spearmen for his wood elves. I'll see if I can found out more about which manufacturer it was.

Col. Tartleton
11-06-2014, 22:23
I think you are paying for what you get at GW. Warhammer has excellent miniatures with a few off sculpts. Some of which are so bad its good like the deranged embodiment of chaos that is Pumbagor.

Are some units stupidly over priced? Yes. But even if its like sixty dollars for ten Dark Elf Witches vs what will probably be twenty five dollars for ten Twilight Kin equivalents I'd rather have the DE Witches. I'd just rather pay less money for them. I mean Witches are stupidly over priced compared to the other things Games Workshop has. Ten man human sized units do not cost 60 dollars. They cost 30-40.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 22:37
That is exactly what I am looking for. I would very much appreciate the name of that manufacturer and thanks for your reply :D

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 22:49
I think you are paying for what you get at GW. Warhammer has excellent miniatures with a few off sculpts. Some of which are so bad its good like the deranged embodiment of chaos that is Pumbagor.

Are some units stupidly over priced? Yes. But even if its like sixty dollars for ten Dark Elf Witches vs what will probably be twenty five dollars for ten Twilight Kin equivalents I'd rather have the DE Witches. I'd just rather pay less money for them. I mean Witches are stupidly over priced compared to the other things Games Workshop has. Ten man human sized units do not cost 60 dollars. They cost 30-40.
Yes but for ten wytches you could get twenty twilight kin and have £to spare. Considering what it costs to make the plastic the elf spearmen, at mantic it costs around 18 euro(£14.99/dont know exchange rates off hand) for 20 but for in my opinion worse sculpt but with less mould issues you get 20 spear elves at gw for 36 euro. I think based off that I feel paying for what I get high elf spearmen should cost 25-30 euro. I do see what your saying I am just trying to add it all up in my head :)

Sexiest_hero
11-06-2014, 23:00
I use daemonettes for my wytches, just a little conversion, just like I use any other knight model for Blood knights. 90$...... Go to heck GW.

Mortarions scythe
11-06-2014, 23:04
But vampires...

Korinov
11-06-2014, 23:42
Well, I'm definitely not a GW fanboy so I don't use the word garbage. Calling the drakon riders, or the cat cavalry, or the basilean sisters 'garbage' would be an insult to garbage. :shifty:

It's slightly irritating to me that the two biggest fantasy plastics manufacturers (as much of a gap between them as there might be) include one with good prices but a general quality that's just below what I like, and one with generally good minis (with obvious exceptions) but an attitude to pricing that would shock british power companies.

Ah, the cat cavalry. What to do about those. You gotta concede that Mantic, at least, sometimes takes the risk of trying new things, it's just that their end results tend to be... lacking. In example I'm glad they went for a chaos dwarfs range, but the result doesn't really please me, I may end up buying a box of decimators as they're not very expensive and probably the best option to have some blunderbusses, but I'm not a huge fan of them either. The golems on the other hand... I'm sold on those.

Still I think their quality/price is decent for the most part. You get what you pay for. Regarding the casting quality... I've read some of the things produced in China were specially bad (goblins, men-at-arms) but what I have (basic dwarves, halfbreeds) is perfectly fine.

Regarding the question about more 'alternative' ranges... well to be honest a separate thread with an index would be more appropiate, but here're my cents:

Gamezone (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/): metal, blatant WHF ripoffs but high sculpting and casting quality. Some of the more complex models (i.e. high elves eagle) require a bit of green stuff to stick together appropiately. Not really cheap, not very expensive either considering it's everything in metal... except some resin regiments they've begun to release recently (dark elves up to now) with pretty attractive pricing and good quality.
Russian Alternative (http://russian-alternative.ru/): metal, limited range, high quality, pretty decent pricing, you can buy from their ebay store (free shipping). Specially known for their great chaos dwarfs. Have some elves and barbarians too.
Shield Wolf Miniatures (http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php): resin, limited range but growing, very decent quality afaiac, decent pricing. Savage orcs, barbarians and a few other nice things (arabian-like mostly).
Scibor (http://sciborminiatures.com/): resin, very high quality afaiac, not cheap. Mostly dwarves, they have other things as well.

And there are more, many more out there.

Edit: just seen Gamezone has also released high elves spearmen in plastic resin (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/elves/1625-03-90p-caja-lanceros-veteranos-resina-plastica.html). Some people may be interested.

yabbadabba
12-06-2014, 05:36
Gamezone! That's them!

ashc
12-06-2014, 05:57
Titan-forge (http://titan-forge.com/fantasy_miniatures?PHPSESSID=3df75574d01a4d23a06d7 7497691f7d6) have some nice looking bits and pieces for a few armies.

Owning the Mantic Undead and seeing my mate's Mantic KOW kickstarter bundle I think their ranges are incredibly hit-and-miss.

Col. Tartleton
12-06-2014, 05:58
Its not that Mantic stuff is bad. Its just not giving me a "I need to buy those" vibe its giving me a "that's a bargain."

While there's nothing wrong with that I'm the kind of guy who right or wrong is willing to spend a few more dollars for a t shirt with the polo symbol on it. My problem with GW is that their red t shirt is 12 dollars but their green t shirt is 25 dollars. Or their Coors draft is three dollars but their Budweiser draft is nine dollars. It just makes the bar look dumb. I mean realistically its not that GW is expensive compared to the other games, its that they want you to use a lot more models and they aren't cheap.

I mean you can't play skaven without like six boxes of clanrats/slaves. They're one of the cheapest units to buy fortunately ($1.75 a model). But that's still over 200 dollars for a few hundred points of tarpits.

Spiney Norman
12-06-2014, 06:17
Well, I'm definitely not a GW fanboy so I don't use the word garbage. Calling the drakon riders, or the cat cavalry, or the basilean sisters 'garbage' would be an insult to garbage. :shifty:

It's slightly irritating to me that the two biggest fantasy plastics manufacturers (as much of a gap between them as there might be) include one with good prices but a general quality that's just below what I like, and one with generally good minis (with obvious exceptions) but an attitude to pricing that would shock british power companies.

I think its definitely a case of you get what you pay for when it comes to mantic and GW, if you like nice models you pay for them, if not, buy mantic and save yourself some cash.

What bothers me about the idea of mixing GW and mantic models in an army is that mantic models are noticeably smaller scale than GW models, particularly the elves.

Perhaps we need to set up a watchdog to look at wargames prices, call it off-war

Urgat
12-06-2014, 06:29
Problem with Mantic is I don't blame the quality of the minis, but the designs. The quality of the casting, mould lines, whatever, yes, it is totally fair that a cheaper product would be lower quality. But those horrible designs? When you make a company selling fantasy minis, you should, dunno, have someone who can do some good looking fantasy sketches, a good sculptor? It's not the wages of a handful guys that will impact on the final price of the product. We're not talking about car developement there. Mantics sculpting always ever gives me the same sentiment: "rushed". the HE dragon things wouldn't look out of place next to the earliest of Citadel dragons from the 80s.

Col. Tartleton
12-06-2014, 06:34
They aren't that bad. They're just not impressive in this age of computer assisted design and 3d printing and amazing sculpts.

Darnok
12-06-2014, 06:43
As others said, I think Mantics Undead range has some usable kits. The skeletons are okayish, with some effort you can "bling them up" with GW skeleton bits. That's what I did, and mixed with the regular GW models it looks solid. The one kit I can actually recommend is the zombie one: you get good variety, the models look like zombies (not like the GW fattos), and the package is very affordable. I mixed them with the ghouls for even more variety, and am really happy with the results.

The rest of Mantics offerings? I'll pass. You get what you pay for, and in general that's not a lot.

Urgat
12-06-2014, 06:44
They aren't that bad. They're just not impressive in this age of computer assisted design and 3d printing and amazing sculpts.

http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Mantic-Games-Elf-Drakon-Lord-and-Drakon-Riders.jpg (http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Mantic-Games-Elf-Drakon-Lord-and-Drakon-Riders.jpg)

Are you serious?

edit: found that link, it lists a very wide range of... her... ranges :p

http://www.fantization.com/tabletopminiatures.aspx

Guess since the obvious absent is GW, that list is actually to provide an "anything but GW" supply of minis. Note they list companies that are gone (Rackham :'().

Darnok
12-06-2014, 06:45
http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Mantic-Games-Elf-Drakon-Lord-and-Drakon-Riders.jpg (http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Mantic-Games-Elf-Drakon-Lord-and-Drakon-Riders.jpg)

Are you serious?

But those would sell like hotcakes... in the 80s. :shifty:

Urgat
12-06-2014, 07:15
That's right: would you eat a hotcake from the 80s? :p

Voss
12-06-2014, 07:25
I was looking for alternative high elf models and I stumbled across mantic games kings of war. So I was wondering what their models are like compared to fantasy. Are they good quality? Are they durable? And is the kings of war ruleset any good in it's self. I would like to point out that for £14.99 you get 20 lovely looking spear elves and a foam case to carry them. Thanks in advance :)

Mantic in general? Bad.
Undead in specific (zombies, ghouls): Good
Elves in particular: utter pants on head terrible.

Ultimate Life Form
12-06-2014, 08:06
Oh. My. God.

I guess it's good this thread shows us that GW has its merits, too.

jtrowell
12-06-2014, 08:19
Ok, trying to be objective about Mantic, about the models there are several points to check :
1- do you like the design (purely subjective)
2- the quality of the sculpt itself (is it detailled, are the proportions appropriate, ...)
3- the quality of the casting (are there mould lines, bubbles (for resin models), is the model brittle ...)


For Mantic models, you must know that they have tried may things across the years, making their ranges very uneven, so what apply to some models might not apply to all.

Let's start with the design, for their elves they clearly tried to distant themselves from GW look, and made them thinner, giving them this strange look. At first I didn't like it very much, but after buying a few boxs in a sale for half price, I found myself starting to like them more.
In any way, this point is purely subjective, so if you really don't like the design, there's nothing that you can do.

About the quality of the sculpts, I agree that the drakon riders are rather bads, but the plastic elves -if you put aside the design choice- are rather detailled.

About the quality of casting, you must know that Mantic started with Renedra for their first plastic models, a famous UK company that rival GW in quality. The plastic kits made during this time have all a very good quality, and the plastic elves are among them.

It's after that that, with Renedra both expensive and having a long wait list, Mantic tried to work with chinese manufacturer when they started to get bigger, especially when they started doing successful kickstarters where they couldn't use Renedra in a timely manner.

From what I gathered about this, one of the chinese manufacturer was the true responsible for the bad things about the Basilean, not only were the molds of bad quality (the details of the models are slightly blurry compared to the original sculpts), but they also made them bigger that they should have (the men-at-arms are bigger than the other models of the range, they almost look to be 32mm), and for the women units the chinese tried to adapt the 3D sculpts before tooling.
This is not unusual, as 3D models that must apply to a physical medium often have some minor flaws that have to be fixed (like a microscopic hole that must be closed of the tool will think that the model is hollow), but when the manufacturer did it they made a mess of the original sculpt.

Those were the big misses, most other plastic models from the time are usually acceptable (not great, but not bad eitheir).

Now Mantic has stopped working with this manufacturer, and they are trying new methods (It's not clear if they are trying a new manufacturer or getting the tech in house).
The Deadzone kickstarter second wave that is expected in july should be the decisive moment to see the quality of the new tooling.

Back on topic, for the plastic elves, the quality is good, it's mainly for you a question of if you like the design or not.

Their metal characters are not bad too if you need a cheap one.

jtrowell
12-06-2014, 08:30
I realise that you also asked about their game King of War.

First, know that you can download the rules for free on their site to check by yourself : http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

Almost all army lists are also available on the same page.

What you are missing from the printed books are mainly :
- magic items lists (most can also be taken by normal units, not only characters, this is a way to further customize your army)
- background
- some advanced rules about terrain or campaign

Even if you or your opponent doesn't like Mantic models, nothing prevent you from using models from other manufacturer with their rules, many GW armies can be easily converted for King of Wars.

Now for the rules themselves, they don't look bad and are be faster to play that Warhammer.

One of the main flaws of Warhammer from my point of view is that it still use a IGOUGO system where each player play his whole turn before the other players can do his.

To manage this and prevent a player from becoming bored, Warhammer edition try to give more interaction during your opponent turn (dispelling during your opponent magic phase, both players get to fight during the melee phase, and so on).

To resolve the same problem, King of war use the opposite method : the turn is streamlined so that only the active player do something during his/her turn, but in exchance the turn is resolved as fast as possible for such system. This also have the added benefit that it allows tournaments to use a clock to limit a player turn if they want, something that is not possible when both players have things to do during each other turn.

Myself I prefer more modern system with alternate activation, but if you must use IGOUGO the current Warhammer and King of War versions are acceptable.

Ultimate Life Form
12-06-2014, 08:37
That's all fair and well, but to me as a customer it doesn't matter why a product is bad, only the fact that it is. I suggest they sort their issues out. Those Drakon things... horrible! The insect Elves I can live with if that's how they decide to run things. It's no different from making Orcs into martian gorillas with boar tusks, which is also highly unusual if you think about it.

theshoveller
12-06-2014, 09:02
Not that I know of. There's Avatar of War and Raging Heroes, but they're both pretty much in the quality/price range as GW. If Reaper decided to make units, they'd be the ones, quality and good price, but unfortunately, besides a couple very limited exceptions (Pathfinder goblin warriors for instance, well, you got 4 different goblins, far from a unit), they haven't really tried yet.
There are about 12 different Pathfinder Goblin sculpts, but you'll never get them to all rank up with each other (they're intended for 25x25 bases, apart from anything else).

jtrowell
12-06-2014, 11:42
That's all fair and well, but to me as a customer it doesn't matter why a product is bad, only the fact that it is. I suggest they sort their issues out. Those Drakon things... horrible! The insect Elves I can live with if that's how they decide to run things. It's no different from making Orcs into martian gorillas with boar tusks, which is also highly unusual if you think about it.

I wasn't trying to excuse them for this problem, but just to give context to the fact that this is not representative of *all* their models.

As I said, the plastic elves, provided that you like their thin design, are fairly good.

About the drakon I agree that they are a bad sculpt, no technical excuse for them, but all miniatures companies usually have their miss (do I need to reming people of the Nagash miniature ? Or more recently the pumbagor ?).

Looking at the more recent models that Mantic made for Deadzone and Dreadball, I find models that are both well-sculpted and with dynamic poses. Those are in restic and not hard plastic, but as I wrote plastic ones are coming too.

Here are a few exemples of recent models that I like from Deadzone :

194765194766194767

theshoveller
12-06-2014, 11:49
One of the things I objected to with the Mantic Undead was that they were fiddly, but not actually customisable.

To explain: in a GW kit, you often have a variety of options. You can make the model look a number of different ways, at the cost of having to do lots of glueing and thinking about how things rank up. Fireforge and Perry kits are very good for this too (as are, I'm told, Warlord). Conversely, with Mantic Undead I had to glue a lot of things in place (arms, weapons, heads) but there was little choice about how to do so - they frequently only went together one way. I resent having to do that. I can't say if that's true of their other lines, but I found that their best miniatures for Dreadball were one or two piece sculpts.

Ultimate Life Form
12-06-2014, 11:53
One of the things I objected to with the Mantic Undead was that they were fiddly, but not actually customisable.

To explain: in a GW kit, you often have a variety of options. You can make the model look a number of different ways, at the cost of having to do lots of glueing and thinking about how things rank up. Fireforge and Perry kits are very good for this too (as are, I'm told, Warlord). Conversely, with Mantic Undead I had to glue a lot of things in place (arms, weapons, heads) but there was little choice about how to do so - they frequently only went together one way. I resent having to do that.

Apparently you haven't bought a GW kit in the past 5 years.

theshoveller
12-06-2014, 11:59
Apparently you haven't bought a GW kit in the past 5 years.
I bought the majority of my GW plastic kits in the last five years. What's your point?

Ultimate Life Form
12-06-2014, 12:05
I bought the majority of my GW plastic kits in the last five years. What's your point?

Attack of the Clones? Dual-purpose monopose kits? Where the only option you have is which head to glue to which body? Or, in the case of Skaven Clanrats, not even that? I suggest you take a closer look at Island of Blood. The Skaven come ready to be clipped from the sprue. All you have to do is glue a single arm. The possibilities are endless! Now if I were to compare that to the old Clanrats, which came in 6 parts, plus shield...

zoggin-eck
12-06-2014, 13:39
You can't really ask other people if a model range is any good. It's up to you to decide if you like them. I own a couple of hundred Mantic models, but have lost interest and put most of them off, to be honest. With the Mantic high elves in particular though, it's easy enough to find reviews and comparison shots online since they were an early release. Regardless of style differences and opinion, their elves are really quite small compared to GW's admittedly large elves. I only recently realised how larger GW's newer Swordmasters are!

I'm amazed that we only see the same couple of model maker for alternate WHFB models. We're flippin' spoiled for chose these days! My last Warhammer additions over the previous year were mostly from Ral Partha, Reaper, Asgard (Vikingforge) with a little from Grenadier, Zombiesmith, Mantic, RAFM and of course GW both old and new. Again, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I'll admit though, I suspect most people like their armies to look a little more uniform, modern and consistent in scale than I do :) Look around somewhere like the Lead Adventure forum and you'l see tons of other mobs.

If it's simply GW prices that bother people, buy some second hand models. A little TLC, ebay/forum browsing and effort and you'll get some really cheap models for any unit. I've made whole armies that way (but hey, the alternative is to pay Australian prices!). Mantic plastics are of course incredibly cheap. Go with any of their models them if you like them. The Abyssal/Chaos dwarf decimators though? Try reading up on the assembly issues some have had. They're metal and plastic hybrids with awkwardly fitting arms. I gave up and only assembled/painted two :(

The earlier idea of filling out back ranks with cheaper models is something I've always done in favour of other tricks like unit fillers.



Edit: just seen Gamezone has also released high elves spearmen in plastic resin (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/elves/1625-03-90p-caja-lanceros-veteranos-resina-plastica.html). Some people may be interested.

Thanks for the tip. I thought they'd only made the switch with their Dark Elves so far. I might get a set to compare the plaster/resing plastic/restic/whatevr they're using. Not the biggest fan of Gamezone (their Heroquest Kickstarer confusion was comedy gold, though).


Attack of the Clones? Dual-purpose monopose kits? Where the only option you have is which head to glue to which body? Or, in the case of Skaven Clanrats, not even that? I suggest you take a closer look at Island of Blood. The Skaven come ready to be clipped from the sprue. All you have to do is glue a single arm. The possibilities are endless! Now if I were to compare that to the old Clanrats, which came in 6 parts, plus shield...

Huh? The whole point of the 4th to 8th starter kits is that they are easy to put together. I don't think the clanrats suffer much from being single piece (again, particularly being a starter set). Besides, they sell a modern clanrat set with more components anyway (and the 5th ed onward plastic "6 parts" set was a nightmare to rank up). The example of the Mantic ghouls being a unit of two models is a good one. Really nice models, quality of cast and detail, but very fiddly to assemble and convert (most of my optional claw weapon hands came broken) and really do feel boring after you've painted a few of the same "left arm up, now right arm up" poses. For me, I got bored after painting a few of these (along with the zombies, orcs, goblins and both style Dwarfs) much quicker than my all very similar skaven and high elves.

Dual-purpose big kits bore me a little, but you're generally only going to have one anyway and isn't any worse than the usual alternate of a "single pose".

That's all fair and well, but to me as a customer it doesn't matter why a product is bad, only the fact that it is.

I do agree with you here 100%. I've never read so many reasons why some models suck before. As a customer, I don't care one bit about how their models are made if I just gave them money for dud figures. I've posted enough photos here of my goblins, for instance (a unit they show a tiny photo of what I'm sure are the earlier metal models). One-man operations churning out models from their kitchen, fair enough (and I find that sort of thing fascinating anyhow), but if I read the "were Renedra, went to a lesser quality Chinese manufacturer but it's OK 'cause they look alright in a unit" story again I'll scream!

Urgat
12-06-2014, 13:50
About the drakon I agree that they are a bad sculpt, no technical excuse for them, but all miniatures companies usually have their miss (do I need to reming people of the Nagash miniature ? Or more recently the pumbagor ?).

I'd honestly take two pumbargors instead of a pack of these horrible things. Well of course, I'm one of these few who actually like them, so it wouldn't hurt me much :p


One of the things I objected to with the Mantic Undead was that they were fiddly, but not actually customisable.


To explain: in a GW kit, you often have a variety of options. You can make the model look a number of different ways, at the cost of having to do lots of glueing and thinking about how things rank up. Fireforge and Perry kits are very good for this too (as are, I'm told, Warlord). Conversely, with Mantic Undead I had to glue a lot of things in place (arms, weapons, heads) but there was little choice about how to do so - they frequently only went together one way. I resent having to do that. I can't say if that's true of their other lines, but I found that their best miniatures for Dreadball were one or two piece sculpts.

As long as there's variations, I don't actually mind that for RnF troops, for two reasons: when you got so many minis to build, it's just a pain, and, to be quite frank, even if you can do whatever with, say, GW zombies, there's only a very few poses that actually look right. I've seen people go all crazy with how they built their models and, I'll be honest, it just looked wrong.


Attack of the Clones? Dual-purpose monopose kits? Where the only option you have is which head to glue to which body? Or, in the case of Skaven Clanrats, not even that? I suggest you take a closer look at Island of Blood. The Skaven come ready to be clipped from the sprue. All you have to do is glue a single arm. The possibilities are endless! Now if I were to compare that to the old Clanrats, which came in 6 parts, plus shield...

Starter sets have always had that kind of models, these are not the ones to use as examples for customisation. 4th ed models were monobloc, 5th ed were the most customisable (arms, heads), the rest since then was usually monobloc.

theshoveller
12-06-2014, 14:31
Attack of the Clones? Dual-purpose monopose kits? Where the only option you have is which head to glue to which body? Or, in the case of Skaven Clanrats, not even that? I suggest you take a closer look at Island of Blood. The Skaven come ready to be clipped from the sprue. All you have to do is glue a single arm. The possibilities are endless! Now if I were to compare that to the old Clanrats, which came in 6 parts, plus shield...
False equivalence. The miniatures in the core boxes are intended to go together easily, because they're aimed at new players. Compare and contrast the Island of Blood Griffon with the 2012 Empire one.

shelfunit.
12-06-2014, 15:27
They are considerably better than a number of posters on here would like you to believe. The elves main problem is that they won't scale with pretty much any other range (they are considerably more spindly, if not much shorter than GW HEs). The details are much finer - and by that I don't mean "greater" detail. just that the details are much more fiddly to paint that GW elves. Forget the 20 for £15 though, just go and get the 50 elves and a warmachine for £24 (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/mantic-games/kings-of-war/kingdom-of-the-elves/elf-one-player-battle-set/prod_17259.html), or larger deals. That said, the GameZone elves are considerably better than both GW and Mantic, and have the advantage of being roughly 50% cheaper than GWs offerings.

yabbadabba
12-06-2014, 16:55
Apparently you haven't bought a GW kit in the past 5 years. I have and the few kits I have bought most have been customisable.

Vazalaar
12-06-2014, 17:09
Somebody posted that Gamezone miniatures are of high casting? This is not my experience, while the mini's are very nice, they suffer in my experience from bad casting.

About Mantic miniatures, I can't say anything nice about their miniatures.

Korinov
12-06-2014, 22:43
Somebody posted that Gamezone miniatures are of high casting? This is not my experience, while the mini's are very nice, they suffer in my experience from bad casting.

I guess it varies from mini to mini. I only have a dark elf cold one rider and a few dwarves, and the casting quality of all of them is neat. But it's true I've also heard the opposite about other ranges, like the high elf eagles. Iirc someone described them to me as "a nightmare to assemble, almost impossible without green stuff".

Luigi
12-06-2014, 23:20
False equivalence. The miniatures in the core boxes are intended to go together easily, because they're aimed at new players. Compare and contrast the Island of Blood Griffon with the 2012 Empire one.


I have and the few kits I have bought most have been customisable.

I believe what he meant is that despite the multi-poseability(sp?) that many GW (in this case) kit have to offer is greatly reduced by the impracticality of ranking them up.
My dwarfs with great weapon all look the same, despite coming from a kit that is multicomponent. even on the ones with shield and axe.
the variety comes mostly from painting and little details such shield design.

theshoveller
13-06-2014, 06:59
I believe what he meant is that despite the multi-poseability(sp?) that many GW (in this case) kit have to offer is greatly reduced by the impracticality of ranking them up.
My dwarfs with great weapon all look the same, despite coming from a kit that is multicomponent. even on the ones with shield and axe.
the variety comes mostly from painting and little details such shield design.
That was almost the first thing I acknowledged (in post #44), so I think your reading is more generous than mine.

Some kits are definitely better than others with regards to ranking up, but I appreciate the sheer number of options (and sometimes, the interchangeability - the front rank of my Empire swordsmen have bits from the Greatswords, Archers and Free Company kits).

Kingly
13-06-2014, 07:18
They are considerably better than a number of posters on here would like you to believe. The elves main problem is that they won't scale with pretty much any other range (they are considerably more spindly, if not much shorter than GW HEs). The details are much finer - and by that I don't mean "greater" detail. just that the details are much more fiddly to paint that GW elves. Forget the 20 for £15 though, just go and get the 50 elves and a warmachine for £24 (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/mantic-games/kings-of-war/kingdom-of-the-elves/elf-one-player-battle-set/prod_17259.html), or larger deals. That said, the GameZone elves are considerably better than both GW and Mantic, and have the advantage of being roughly 50% cheaper than GWs offerings.

not the case at all, the new GW minis coming out are way more consistent and waaaay better quality, I bought a big unit of Spears from GZ and really regretted it, terrible stuff and in no way cheaper at all €11 for 3?

You should be more delicate with the advice.

shelfunit.
13-06-2014, 09:54
not the case at all, the new GW minis coming out are way more consistent and waaaay better quality,

As always, that's just your opinion, and my own and many others disagree. There is nothing objectively better about GW minis than an increasing number of other manufacturers these days.


I bought a big unit of Spears from GZ and really regretted it, terrible stuff and in no way cheaper at all €11 for 3?

Odd, the models I have from them are far superior in quality of sculpting and casting than any non-plastic* models from GW over the last decade. You need to look at the prices again - times are changing (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/elves/1625-03-90p-caja-lanceros-veteranos-resina-plastica.html)


You should be more delicate with the advice.

I'll be more "delicate" if you'll be more accurate :rolleyes:

*I only have some of their metals to compare with.

Urgat
13-06-2014, 10:28
Odd, the models I have from them are far superior in quality of sculpting and casting than any non-plastic* models from GW over the last decade.

Bar incredible exceptions, I've never found any fault in GW's metal casting, and I've got models ranging from the latest metals to models from the 80s. Can't see how GZ casting could be of "far superior quality" (as you just wrote yourself, sculpting, it's just your opinion, right? ;) ), so that statement sounds somewhat partisan if I'm being honest. Miscasts were rare, flash was pretty much non-existant, only thing was that mould lines could be a bit too strong. But barely any warping at all usually. I've bought metals from many other companies, and they all had faults you could pinpoint on each range (say Rackham, lovely sculpts, lovely casting, but that metal they used was so brittle it'd snap on the merest pression).

shelfunit.
13-06-2014, 10:34
Bar incredible exceptions, I've never found any fault in GW's metal casting, and I've got models ranging from the latest metals to models from the 80s. Can't see how GZ casting could be of "far superior quality" (as you just wrote yourself, sculpting, it's just your opinion, right? ;) ), so that statement sounds somewhat partisan if I'm being honest. Miscasts were rare, flash was pretty much non-existant, only thing was that mould lines could be a bit too strong. But barely any warping at all usually. I've bought metals from many other companies, and they all had faults you could pinpoint on each range (say Rackham, lovely sculpts, lovely casting, but that metal they used was so brittle it'd snap on the merest pression).


I've only seen casting of FC from GW over the last decade and the GZ castings were all considerably higher quality than that. Don't think I mentioned anywhere that they were superior to GW metals - although I suppose I should have made that bit clearer.

Urgat
13-06-2014, 10:40
Ah, yeah, finecast, I have no FC model so I have no opinion on it. I've read that the issues were pretty much fixed now, though. I talked about GW metals because GZ are metal, it seems only fair to compare the same mediums.

Darnok
13-06-2014, 10:43
I talked about GW metals because GZ are metal, it seems only fair to compare the same mediums.

GZ has moved quite a bit of their range over to some form of resin/plastic medium. Funnily enough they (almost?) halved the prices for the models in the new material.

Last Edition
13-06-2014, 10:48
I agree with Kingly. My experience with Gamezone is not good at all: tried their metal mournful knights, and while the end result was great, it took me several hours to clean up, glue together and fill glaring open gaps with green stuff - horrible casting and a pain to work with. Same experience with their wolves and eagles.

I will not try their resin-line until they release a single character model, then I'll test them out. And for their metals...never again.

Urgat
13-06-2014, 10:52
GZ has moved quite a bit of their range over to some form of resin/plastic medium. Funnily enough they (almost?) halved the prices for the models in the new material.
Ah ok, mea culpa then.

Darnok
13-06-2014, 10:53
My experience with Gamezone is not good at all: tried their metal mournful knights, and while the end result was great, it took me several hours to clean up, glue together and fill glaring open gaps with green stuff - horrible casting and a pain to work with.

To be honest, I can't tell you anything different about the GW Bloodknights. Cool models, but a PITA to assemble.

Last Edition
13-06-2014, 11:03
To be honest, I can't tell you anything different about the GW Bloodknights. Cool models, but a PITA to assemble.

Hehe fair enough. Hopefully, GWs eagles and wolves are better than GZ models :)

tneva82
13-06-2014, 11:03
Ah, yeah, finecast, I have no FC model so I have no opinion on it. I've read that the issues were pretty much fixed now, though. I talked about GW metals because GZ are metal, it seems only fair to compare the same mediums.

I'm somewhat puzzled over the FC. I read tons of complains about FC's but I have yet to have serious problem with any of the FC's I have bought. Worst was smallish hole in deatmaster snitch and nothing tiny bit of green stuff wouldn't solve. Next biggest problem was somewhat bent halberd on phoenix guard SC but fixing that took the time it took me to boil me a cup of tea :P

Maybe I have been unusually lucky though.

shelfunit.
13-06-2014, 11:16
Next biggest problem was somewhat bent halberd on phoenix guard SC but fixing that took the time it took me to boil me a cup of tea :P

You definitely had something to stir your cuppa with though :p

theshoveller
13-06-2014, 11:31
I'm somewhat puzzled over the FC. I read tons of complains about FC's but I have yet to have serious problem with any of the FC's I have bought. Worst was smallish hole in deatmaster snitch and nothing tiny bit of green stuff wouldn't solve. Next biggest problem was somewhat bent halberd on phoenix guard SC but fixing that took the time it took me to boil me a cup of tea :P

Maybe I have been unusually lucky though.
Part of the reason I wouldn't recommend Reaper Bones to anyone is the bending (which doesn't go away without repeated hot water treatment) and the miscasting. A good quarter of the human figures in the Kickstarter box were missing noses.

tneva82
13-06-2014, 11:41
You definitely had something to stir your cuppa with though :p

Well I did pour the hot water for straightening halberd to different cup just to be on safe side of not ingesting anything harmful :P

Getting curious enough about the blood knights as most problems I hear are from them. (yeah I'm somewhat odd in that I actually get tempted to buy boxed set just to see how bad it really is :D Bit pricey though seeing I don't have intention of starting VC army...And right now I'm seriously hard pressed of cash due to my 2nd hobby)

Urgat
13-06-2014, 13:25
Part of the reason I wouldn't recommend Reaper Bones to anyone is the bending (which doesn't go away without repeated hot water treatment) and the miscasting. A good quarter of the human figures in the Kickstarter box were missing noses.

I missed a grand total of one nose in my vampire pledge. Fixing the bending requires you to drop the mini in boiling water and wait for it to straighten by itself. That's hardly a cause for not recommanding Bones. The medium is a pleasure to clean, convert and paint. What they advertized about not needing priming turned out to be true (to my surprise, if I'll be honest. I really thought it was a load of bull till I tried. Paint sticks even after some severe "experimental" mishandling too).
Yeah, there's the nose, I agree it's not great, but a human mini in Bones costs 2 bucks and a half. I can live with greenstuffing a nose (among... I don't remember, over a hundred minis to test from?) for that sort of price.
Price-wise they totally puts Mantic to shame (sucks, as their selling price is their selling point, heh), and for a casting quality that rivals GW metals. Painted, you cannot tell the difference betwen the original metal mini and the Bones version. .. The only thing is that imho some Reaper minis are real, real stinkers, but for each crappy sculpt they have, they also have a wonderful one. You couldn't get around that with the kickstarter, ( well, that's how it works, they show you what you get, you can't really complain about it ), but anybody can choose what they like or don't like in a shop, really.
I can't wait for them to start making regiments, they have to, they must, Bones is meant for that (that and undead dragons the size of a microwave oven, apparently).

shelfunit.
13-06-2014, 14:18
Hehe fair enough. Hopefully, GWs eagles and wolves are better than GZ models :)

You are seriously trying to say these (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Goblin-Wolf-Riders) are better than these (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/orcs-and-goblins/198-chaman-goblin-en-lobo.html), and that this (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Wood-Elf-Great-Eagle) is better than this (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/elves/134-gran-aguila-i.html)?

Urgat
13-06-2014, 14:35
I agree with you for the eagles, but imo, GZ's wolves are no good either. At least you can reposition GW's wolves easily since they're plastic.

HelloKitty
13-06-2014, 14:46
Gamezone miniatures are definitely a great alternative. Very pretty. If mantic could make models even half as good looking as those, this one would be more inclined to look into mantic more.

rwphillipsstl
13-06-2014, 14:49
I have a bunch of GZ models, primarily the Imperial range. There are no issues with the foot, but the horse assembly is sometimes problematic, as people have said it requires some extra glue and green stuff. Worth the pain, but frustrating. GZ are best used to sprinkle throughout your GW armies for that reason--they are also more expensive for rank and file.

theshoveller
13-06-2014, 15:00
I missed a grand total of one nose in my vampire pledge. Fixing the bending requires you to drop the mini in boiling water and wait for it to straighten by itself. That's hardly a cause for not recommanding Bones. The medium is a pleasure to clean, convert and paint. What they advertized about not needing priming turned out to be true (to my surprise, if I'll be honest. I really thought it was a load of bull till I tried. Paint sticks even after some severe "experimental" mishandling too).
Yeah, there's the nose, I agree it's not great, but a human mini in Bones costs 2 bucks and a half. I can live with greenstuffing a nose (among... I don't remember, over a hundred minis to test from?) for that sort of price.
Price-wise they totally puts Mantic to shame (sucks, as their selling price is their selling point, heh), and for a casting quality that rivals GW metals. Painted, you cannot tell the difference betwen the original metal mini and the Bones version. .. The only thing is that imho some Reaper minis are real, real stinkers, but for each crappy sculpt they have, they also have a wonderful one. You couldn't get around that with the kickstarter, ( well, that's how it works, they show you what you get, you can't really complain about it ), but anybody can choose what they like or don't like in a shop, really.
I can't wait for them to start making regiments, they have to, they must, Bones is meant for that (that and undead dragons the size of a microwave oven, apparently).
We had dozens missing faces or other details, most of the bends returned to being bent when they cooled (and this was a real issue with bases, for the sheer number of miniatures that won't sit flat), the terrible mould lines, the multipart figures that didn't fit together because the pieces were warped and the necessity of needing to mix up paint 'just so' for it to not be repelled by the plastic...

... well, they were worth about what we paid for them. I wouldn't pay retail for them.

For context, Reaper rubbed me up the wrong way time-and-time-again between the end of the Kickstarter and the actual delivery of the product. Their passive-aggressive approach to keeping backers updated, and their dismissive attitude to non-US backers (a friend of mine didn't receive his box until nearly six months after they claimed to have shipped everything), left me with very little inclination to give them the benefit of the doubt. In contrast, Alien Dungeon's Martian Front was a model KS.

Urgat
13-06-2014, 15:32
If you boil them long enough, they don't bend back. I'm a non-US backer too, but I got over the delay, and I can understand why they didn't update so much after a while, when I see all the pestering they had every day. By the sound of it they fixed all these problems on their second KS. It really has nothing to do with the quality of the miniatures anyway, and my experience with them is the opposite of yours.

Vazalaar
13-06-2014, 15:36
You are seriously trying to say these (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Goblin-Wolf-Riders) are better than these (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/orcs-and-goblins/198-chaman-goblin-en-lobo.html), and that this (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Wood-Elf-Great-Eagle) is better than this (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/elves/134-gran-aguila-i.html)?

And how old are thos wolf riders? I assume you have seen the LotR plastic eagles? Or you chosed the ignore that.

Skywave
13-06-2014, 15:38
To be honest, I can't tell you anything different about the GW Bloodknights. Cool models, but a PITA to assemble.

Well for having both the metal Blood Knights and two metal cavalry models from Gamezone (one Mournful Knight, one mounted Priest), the Blood Knight were relatively a smooth assembly compared to the Gamezone ones. I barely had to use greenstuff on the Blood Knights, and what I used was mostly on the underside of the horse wich isn't really visible anyway, but I'm a perfectionist sometime and do useless stuff like that :P The Gamezone models on the other hand were just full of gap with pieces that couldn't fit together properly. Each of them required more work than a full box of Blood Knights.

PlasticSwap.Com
13-06-2014, 17:19
The elves look too skinny in my opinion. Other than that i like most of the mantic models.

shelfunit.
13-06-2014, 20:28
And how old are thos wolf riders?

Find me the newer wolf riders GW make and I'll use them as a comparison :rolleyes:.


I assume you have seen the LotR plastic eagles? Or you chosed the ignore that.

I have seen them, they're not that much better, and there's only one pose - according to the GW website.

Verm1s
14-06-2014, 02:49
I think you are paying for what you get at GW


I think its definitely a case of you get what you pay for when it comes to mantic and GW, if you like nice models you pay for them

And pay again, and maybe a third time, and pay just a little bit more on top. And that's just for the one box of minis.


Ah, the cat cavalry. What to do about those. You gotta concede that Mantic, at least, sometimes takes the risk of trying new things, it's just that their end results tend to be... lacking.

Stuff like the cat cavalry is what gets me. Most Mantic stuff I wouldn't mind playing against, the design's just not my cup of tea. (Some of those elf and dwarf minis are a bit too crude and playskoolish) And I'm thinking Mantic zombies kitbashed with future Perry HYW = decent GoT wights. But the sisters look like the sculptor never saw a woman before (or a human, period) and the cats like they never saw Wildlife on One.
And I guess some of you've seen my rants about GW and FW dragons.... the Mantic drakon riders are the worst dragon minis I've ever seen, from the '80's, from the present day, from anywhere.


Edit: just seen Gamezone has also released high elves spearmen in plastic resin (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/elves/1625-03-90p-caja-lanceros-veteranos-resina-plastica.html). Some people may be interested.

Ooh.


Problem with Mantic is I don't blame the quality of the minis, but the designs. The quality of the casting, mould lines, whatever, yes, it is totally fair that a cheaper product would be lower quality. But those horrible designs? When you make a company selling fantasy minis, you should, dunno, have someone who can do some good looking fantasy sketches, a good sculptor? It's not the wages of a handful guys that will impact on the final price of the product. We're not talking about car developement there. Mantics sculpting always ever gives me the same sentiment: "rushed". the HE dragon things wouldn't look out of place next to the earliest of Citadel dragons from the 80s.

This, very much. I look at things like abyssal dwarf hats (http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/abyssal-dwarfs/product/abyssal-dwarf-decimator-regiment-20-figures.html), elf war machines (http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/elves/product/elves-dragons-breath.html) and orc axes (http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/orcs/product/orc-greatax-regiment-20-figures.html), and I wonder what was running through heads. They look like cheap plastic, and not in the way they're meant to. Just blobby masses in random shapes.
IIRC Bob Naismith sculpted many of Mantic's earlier minis. He might've been a big noise in wargames minis a couple of decades ago, but I've looked at some of his work produced just before Mantic showed up, and 'rushed' is exactly the word that came to mind. Along with 'phoned in'.


They aren't that bad. They're just not impressive in this age of computer assisted design and 3d printing and amazing sculpts.

Knowing how to put limbs and cloth and other details together in visually pleasing proportions and arrangements isn't dependent on Zbrush and a few keystrokes. This is the great... the word 'lie' might be a bit harsh and melodramatic. Great misapprehension about CAD and digital sculpting, rather. 'S just a tool, another way to translate what's in someone's head to a visual medium.


Ok, trying to be objective about Mantic, about the models there are several points to check :
1- do you like the design (purely subjective)

The drakon riders have a design. It's objectively awful.


From what I gathered about this, one of the chinese manufacturer was the true responsible for the bad things about the Basilean, not only were the molds of bad quality (the details of the models are slightly blurry compared to the original sculpts), but they also made them bigger that they should have (the men-at-arms are bigger than the other models of the range, they almost look to be 32mm), and for the women units the chinese tried to adapt the 3D sculpts before tooling.
This is not unusual, as 3D models that must apply to a physical medium often have some minor flaws that have to be fixed (like a microscopic hole that must be closed of the tool will think that the model is hollow), but when the manufacturer did it they made a mess of the original sculpt.

I saw the production of the basilean sisters from concept (http://www.manticgames.com/SiteData/Root/Image/Mantic/Basilean-Sister_character-sheet.jpg), to what look to me like hand-sculpted parts (http://manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sisters.jpg), to finished, assembled minis (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-l2HjloPzsvE/UZqJDCwWz_I/AAAAAAAADOw/AYd2k6Z4AgE/s1600/basilea-sisters.jpg), and at each stage alarms screamed in my head that they would and did look terrible. (Admittedly they screamed a lot louder at the second stage) But while I'm no expert on the process, if they were digitally sculpted and printed, I've no idea what it was about making the models watertight that caused them to have giraffe necks, linebacker shoulders, ape arms and ham-hands. Not to mention independently writhing flails. And having Mantic not only sign off on these apparent chinese mistakes (sounds like a Tony Reidy ploy), but try to drum up excitement for them.

And as we can see, the cat cav was designed to suck right from the start too. Creeping and tottering along, trying to balance on it's hind legs while doing 'zombie hands' with the fore...


Bar incredible exceptions, I've never found any fault in GW's metal casting, and I've got models ranging from the latest metals to models from the 80s.

I still remember the krootox I bought that one time. One of the first inklings that GW might not have much of a clue what it's at sometimes.


The medium [Bones] is a pleasure to clean, convert and paint.

It's vinyl. 'Orrible, bendy, wobbly, impossible-to-clean-flash-and-mould-lines-without-carving-gouges-out-of-it-or-using-heated-tools-and-choking-on-melted-PVC-fumes vinyl that 1/72 model producers have been using since the stone age and that I swore to shun since my first couple of boxes of said 1/72s.

I'm wavering because I think it might be alright for big models, and I do love that Pathfinder red dragon, but I'm still not excited about those mould lines and TBH, I'd rather have finecast.

That's right.

Vazalaar
15-06-2014, 11:50
I enjoyed your post Verm1s.:)

Bob Naismith also did all the Fireforge plastics if I am not mistaken and those miniatures look good, so I wonder why his mantic sculpts went so wrong/bad.

zoggin-eck
15-06-2014, 13:24
Bob Naismith also did all the Fireforge plastics if I am not mistaken and those miniatures look good, so I wonder why his mantic sculpts went so wrong/bad.

Yup, I really like his recent 10mm stuff more than much his Mantic!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1765086496/10mm-german-landsknechte-with-zweihander-great-swo



It's vinyl. 'Orrible, bendy, wobbly, impossible-to-clean-flash-and-mould-lines-without-carving-gouges-out-of-it-or-using-heated-tools-and-choking-on-melted-PVC-fumes vinyl that 1/72 model producers have been using since the stone age and that I swore to shun since my first couple of boxes of said 1/72s.

I'm wavering because I think it might be alright for big models, and I do love that Pathfinder red dragon, but I'm still not excited about those mould lines and TBH, I'd rather have finecast.


Yep, some really bad examples in my Kickstarter models (and this coming from a 1/72 fan :)). There's a good number of models that people (apparently not Urgat) consistently had missing noses (or mangled hands). Some of the bendy bits are easily fixed with boiling water, some not. Sadly, Reaper didn't choose human-sized models based on whether the material suited. That is, not enough solid, compact models like dwarfs (which come out great) and used tons of thinner, arms out models (the material didn't do many of the female models justice).

Your guess about it being good for big models is more like it. While some suffer, the price is enough to ignore it. I think the ogre-sized models are ace. Anything that suits a 40mm base, I've bought extras both before and after the kickstarter. That and the swarms and medium sized critters.

Verm1s
15-06-2014, 13:54
Well, not to bite the hand that feeds me, but to be honest I'm not altogether fussed about Fireforge, either. Mostly alright, or quite good, but most of the wide-angle poses of the foot sergeants create an image of an army full of rickets, in my eyes. Crusader horses are iffy in places (I know one guy who kitbashed FF and Perry knights: one reason was to replace FF horse heads with Perry ones) and when I saw the greens for the mongol horses at last year's Salute, they looked even wonkier. (I mean, DERP (http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Mongol-Light-Cavalry-Front.jpg). And not to mention that whenever the FF owners were asked why their mongols have horses proportioned more like thoroughbreds than mongol ponies, the only answer received was a politely-worded version of 'p*** off'.)

Mind you, if Bob Naismith sculpted both the Mantic sisters and the FF mongols, it might explain why the latter often have goofy (http://paintingthegame.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_3325.jpg) arm (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0da2OVYTclo/Uw94pi6KW1I/AAAAAAAAa34/kuyq3xneFhY/s1600/1622354_752068914812435_898612792_o.jpg) proportions too.

In searching for those pics, I saw a few comments about how 'stunning' and 'tempting' they are. But then I heard the same thing about the Mantic drakon riders too. So whatever negativity you might think of GW, they're not the only mini producer with a lot of credulous fans.

zoggin-eck
15-06-2014, 14:01
Ah, fair enough. I guess I'd only taken a glancing look at Fireforge models. Ah well, at least Fireforge and GW are confident enough to show close-ups, Mantic are pretty selective about that.

Mortarions scythe, I'll write a little on my thoughts of the Kings of War game itself, if you're still interested (though as others have said, it's free and only takes a moment to read through).

Vazalaar
15-06-2014, 21:33
Well, not to bite the hand that feeds me, but to be honest I'm not altogether fussed about Fireforge, either. Mostly alright, or quite good, but most of the wide-angle poses of the foot sergeants create an image of an army full of rickets, in my eyes. Crusader horses are iffy in places (I know one guy who kitbashed FF and Perry knights: one reason was to replace FF horse heads with Perry ones) and when I saw the greens for the mongol horses at last year's Salute, they looked even wonkier. (I mean, DERP (http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Mongol-Light-Cavalry-Front.jpg). And not to mention that whenever the FF owners were asked why their mongols have horses proportioned more like thoroughbreds than mongol ponies, the only answer received was a politely-worded version of 'p*** off'.)

Mind you, if Bob Naismith sculpted both the Mantic sisters and the FF mongols, it might explain why the latter often have goofy (http://paintingthegame.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/img_3325.jpg) arm (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0da2OVYTclo/Uw94pi6KW1I/AAAAAAAAa34/kuyq3xneFhY/s1600/1622354_752068914812435_898612792_o.jpg) proportions too.

In searching for those pics, I saw a few comments about how 'stunning' and 'tempting' they are. But then I heard the same thing about the Mantic drakon riders too. So whatever negativity you might think of GW, they're not the only mini producer with a lot of credulous fans.

That person wouldn't be Captain Blood?;)
I admit, if you compare fireforge with Perry plastics than Perry's win easly.
I only have the fireforge Templar foot knights and they are nice. It are the mounted knights that look a bit strange (imo), uber sized lances bother etc...

The comparison picture of the foot mongols have indeed the same looking strange arms.. Yike.;)

GrandmasterWang
16-06-2014, 07:20
I was looking for alternative high elf models and I stumbled across mantic games kings of war. So I was wondering what their models are like compared to fantasy. Are they good quality? Are they durable? And is the kings of war ruleset any good in it's self. I would like to point out that for £14.99 you get 20 lovely looking spear elves and a foam case to carry them. Thanks in advance :)

Only buy their high elves if you like things to look like ass.

They are some of the most pathetic sculpts I have ever seen. They are bad value compared with GW witch elves the quality gap is so great!!

Kings of War is decent but simple.

Regarding Mantic.... on the whole they provide good value GW ripoff alternatives. ... that said their Elf range is junk. Their undead, orc and ogre ranges are solid... but I wouldn't recommend the elves to anyone unless that person wanted to field a deliberately horrible looking army to make anyone else in the vicinity feel better about their own armies.

tneva82
16-06-2014, 07:53
You are seriously trying to say these (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Goblin-Wolf-Riders) are better than these (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/orcs-and-goblins/198-chaman-goblin-en-lobo.html),

For 2£ a pop(can get them for 2.25€ therefore) vs 12€ a pop...Yeah.

Funny that for once GW is the cheaper alternative :D Not paying 12€ per light cavalry r&f though. Not even GW is that crazy. Even the much maligned witch elves are only 4.5€ per model.

AngiesArmies
16-06-2014, 09:04
Gamezone (http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/): metal, blatant WHF ripoffs but high sculpting and casting quality. Some of the more complex models (i.e. high elves eagle) require a bit of green stuff to stick together appropiately. Not really cheap, not very expensive either considering it's everything in metal... except some resin regiments they've begun to release recently (dark elves up to now) with pretty attractive pricing and good quality

Thanks a lot for posting this. I had no idea Gamezone had begun with plastic mini's, but that dark elf infantry box looks like an excellent opportunity for some Black Guard. I really like their mini's although I do think they're almost too detailed, especially on models like their feudal knights. I use one of them as a Paladin Hero for my Bretonnians, and compared to the standard Bretonnian knights, whoa. The detailing is so heavy that I feel a full unit of them would be too busy.

When it comes to Mantic it feels a bit like a mixed bag to me. The Undead range looks pretty solid, especially the earlier mentioned zombies/ghouls. I dislike the design of their elves since it's so spindly and insect-like, but while a bit goofy I find say, the dwarven/ogre/orc ranges pretty nice, and I even like the Basilean Elohi (http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/basilea/product/basilean-elohi-3-figures.html) (except those heads, but the rest of the model reminds me a lot of the angels from Diablo III).

theshoveller
16-06-2014, 10:00
I enjoyed your post Verm1s.:)

Bob Naismith also did all the Fireforge plastics if I am not mistaken and those miniatures look good, so I wonder why his mantic sculpts went so wrong/bad.
Naismith sculpts closer to true 28mm than Heroic scale, plus I think a deliberate design choice to have skinny elves. I can only think that Mantic were happy with what he produced, so put them into production.

theshoveller
16-06-2014, 10:08
That person wouldn't be Captain Blood?;)
I admit, if you compare fireforge with Perry plastics than Perry's win easly.
I only have the fireforge Templar foot knights and they are nice. It are the mounted knights that look a bit strange (imo), uber sized lances bother etc...

The comparison picture of the foot mongols have indeed the same looking strange arms.. Yike.;)
The lances are intentionally that size, I think the same logic applies to the foot knights with great helms (which look out of proportion, until you realise just how big a great helm is). The horses aren't great, I will agree, and they're a pain in the **** to put together. They need some thought ranking up, too. Conversely, I'd put them somewhere in the middle of the historical plastics market for quality, and they're good value.

SteelTitan
16-06-2014, 14:08
So far I've bought the Mantic Zombies and the Mantic Trolls (to be used as Crypt Horros with some conversion work). I very extremely pleased with the zombies. The Trolls on the other hand did have a lot of mold lines, including some impossible places (eyebrows, chin and other hard to clean places). They are still good value for money but kinda knocked Mantic off its pedestal. However, having 9 for the price of 3 GW models still makes it worth it.

Verm1s
16-06-2014, 15:54
That person wouldn't be Captain Blood?;)

That's the one. ;)

I feel like I'm being harsh on FF. Like I said at the top, their stuff isn't too bad, and crab-serjeants and ape-mongols aren't deal-breakers. But the mongol horses, strewth. The only ones I've seen that are worse are from Ex-Illis. (http://www.ex-illis.com/wiki/index.php/Hobelars) And like I say, their attitude doesn't endear them to me either.



Regarding Mantic.... on the whole they provide good value GW ripoff alternatives...

I wouldn't disagree that Mantic quality can be iffy, and riding on GW's coat-tails can create mixed feelings; but don't sneer about GW 'ripoffs' too much, 'cos ripping stuff off is probably the biggest reason GW came into existence and is here today. (for now) I've got the KoW book and read it's background, and obviously I've seen the Mantic minis. To be honest I am a little disappointed that they didn't go with a slightly more 'traditional' fantasy look and theme, but in that I'd say they're less of a ripoff than GW's rip off Tolkien and Gygax, et al.


Thanks a lot for posting this. I had no idea Gamezone had begun with plastic mini's, but that dark elf infantry box looks like an excellent opportunity for some Black Guard.

Looking at their high elves, I might finally start that elven army I've been hankering after.


The Trolls on the other hand did have a lot of mold lines, including some impossible places (eyebrows, chin and other hard to clean places). They are still good value for money but kinda knocked Mantic off its pedestal.

Don't get me started on the trolls. ;) In my eyes they'd be pretty great if it wasn't for the utterly ludicrous titchy legs. I know it's good for trolls to be a bit comical somehow, and they shouldn't follow strictly human proportions, but man.

They've been doing pretty great stuff with Dreadball and Deadzone, IMO. I just hope that if or when they cast an eye back to KoW, they bring a bit of that amped-up quality to that mini range. KoW 2nd ed, or summink.

decker_cky
16-06-2014, 18:32
A lot of people hating for the sake of hating. If everything Mantic is being reduced to the dracon riders, then everything GW is reduced to the pumbagor.

Mantic has high points and low points. I consider their undead range to be by and large as good as the GW range. Some parts lack poses, but in general, Mantic made more appealing stylistic choices in the range.

Ogres are another range where I prefer the mantic models where they overlap.

Elves are inferior, but are better models than they appear in the pictures. But the style is way out there which affects things, and this is not a range you could mix.

I quite like the style of the mantic orcs too. But the range isn't well developed, and they don't mix.

For quality of sculpts, there's two plastic kits that fall well below par - men at arms and goblins. The rest are nice kits to work with if you like the look.

For restic, it generally will take a bit of working with, but it doesn't have the miscasts or fragility of finecast. Newer restic kits also seem to be improving over older ones (all of the KoW ones were pretty much from one generation - the KoW kickstarter which was very hit or miss).