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Rawdogg15
17-06-2014, 19:31
Hey there. I have been trying to write a 2400 point VC list for tournament play based around two units of 10 hexwraiths. Would this work and what tweaks or alterations would you make?

Vampire lord: level 4, ogre blade, talisman of preservation, other tricksters shard, quickblood, red fury. 514 points

Necromancer: level 2, dispel scroll, master of the dead. 145 points

Vampire: BSB, nightshroud, lv2 lore of death, great weapon, heavy armour. 219 points

38 skeletons: spears, shields, full command. 220 points

30 crypt ghouls: 300 points

45 zombies: musician, standard. 145 points

10 hexwraiths: Hellwraith. 310 points

10 hexwraiths: Hellwraith. 310 points

Terrorgheist: Infested. 235 points

My initial queries are whether The Lord needs to be lv4. Will I actually cast with him. Also, which units would you put the characters in and how should I rank the units up? Another thought is to possibly drop quickblood in favour of flying horror on The Lord so he can fly around allowing the wraiths and terrorgheist to march.

Mc1gamer
17-06-2014, 21:47
Now this is an experiment I want to see :) Here's my 2 cents: Lose the lvl 4 on the Lord. Better he just 2 dice Invocation and leave the hard spell casting to others (6 dicing) or you risk getting sucked into the warp and auto-lose. I suggest also making your level 2 necro a death caster (kills = more dice, and you can snipe characters nicely). Better to have the less costly caster chance a 6 dice than your high cost hero vamp. Make that vamp a standard lor of necro and your backup if your lord dies.

Use the remaining points for some vargheists or fellbats for warmachine hunting, or even better, take a send Terrorbat (they will be enemy #1 for cannons, etc). Replace some core for 2 of dogs. You will need them to screen. You can save some points also with dropping master of the dead (waste of points unless you go all skellies) and infested. Those won't make up their points value and you will be better off with the added points in the Varghiests or if you can afford it, take a spirit host. Those always are worth the points and can hold up huge monsters, even a steam tank, if you position properly.

Again, drop the total points (after you add dogs) to your core min. That might mean losing a unit, but better to have 2 bigger units than 3 mid sized. Crumble will wipe out our core fast, but if you have enough to last till you can raise more or heal back losses, you can tarpit and survive. Better to have 40 ghouls and 2 units of 40 zombies (or more if you can afford it), plus 2 units of 5 dogs each, something along those lines.

I'm a huge fan of Hex's, but I've never run 20 of them. Would love to hear how they do. I like 2 units of 5, or one of 10, but you are going heavy on the Hex's, make sure to bring chaff to redirect. Their best power is walking thru other units, and if they get stuck in combat (ie charged) they pop easy (static combat res of 5 for blocked infantry is alot to overcome), so keep them out of close combat.

Shadeseraph
17-06-2014, 21:48
1) Chaff. Vampires need chaff. It's what allows hexwraiths and terrorgheists to work. You are sorely missing in the chaff department, specially when VC have some of the best chaff in the game, in the form of Wolves.
2) Regarding magic: if your intended base is the two units of hexwraiths, then you are better served with additional castings of IoN over a single good caster, as IoN can't raise more than one hexwraith per casting. That said, magic protection is always important, as is getting Danse Macabre reliably, as your army's core is fairly slow.
3) If you want to base your army around the 'gheist and the 'wraiths, I'd suggest you to use a faster base to provide them with marching ability, as you've yourself said. At the very least, a black knight unit would be a good start, but you may try a hellsteed (NOT an Abyssal Terror) if you think you can succesfully avoid cannonballs that will be directed at your general.

Frankly, you have way too many points invested in core, which is not exactly great if your intention is to play competitively.

Rawdogg15
17-06-2014, 22:28
Okay, what I'm hearing is that I need to lose some points from core. My problem is that I love smelliest think they look awesome on the table and spent a butt load of time painting up 40 of them! It seems to me that I need to drop them, add more ghouls and a lot more zombies for fewer overall points. I'll get back with list edits in the next few days hopefully.


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Rawdogg15
18-06-2014, 07:09
Okay, 1st edit:

Vampire lord: lv2 (vampires), heavy armour, ogre blade, talisman of preservation, other tricksters shard, quickblood, red fury, hellsteed. 474 points

Vampire: BSB, nightshroud, summon creatures of the night, level2 (vampires), great weapon, shield, heavy armour. 229 points.

Necromancer: dispel scroll, talisman of protection, level2 (death) 140 points

35 crypt ghouls: crypt haunter 360 points

50 zombies: musician, standard bearer. 160 points

5 dire wolves: doom wolf 50 points

5 dire wolves: doom wolf 50 points

10 hexwraiths: Hellwraith 310 points

10 hexwraiths: Hellwraith 310 points

Spirit host 45 points

Spirit host 45 points

Terrorgheist 225 points

Any better?

daimyo52
19-06-2014, 07:13
Where's the Vamp lord on Hellsteed going to hide............. he's asking for a cannonball to the face.

Hexwraith's are very situational........... some armies will have a field day with them ( DoC / WE's ) others will struggle.

Mc1gamer
19-06-2014, 08:01
Drop both Hellwraiths. You are already heavily invested in the hex's and the champions aren't worth the points for those units. They aren't at their best in close combat. As the previous poster said, a mount on your lord is a liability unless he can join a unit. He can't join the ethereal hex units, so at best he can stay near them, and I forget if he can get a look at sir near the hex's. I think you can do that but even if he can, its only a 4+, and he will be targeted, alot, so it will be failed. Better to lose the mount, and place him in the zombie unit with the hero vamp. Place him on a croner, and the hero in the next slot. Any challenger will be subject to the nightshroud, lose any strength bonus, and become asl. The extea points you should use for either filling the ghouls to 40, or for another zombie unit to bunker your necro. Or lose the extra level on your lorde (he only really needs invocation, dont risk more than 2 dicing that spell with your lord!) and going for another level 1 necro. You can also drop the talisman on the death caster necro. You can gain several invocation attempts with 2-3 casters (signature spell!) so plenty of chances to raise back your loses. The death caster is merely for 6 dicing purple sun. Better to take him at level 2 for more chances, but the rest of the death spells are very synergistic with lore of vamps, so that'll work. If you have the points, grab the book of arkhan for a bound vanhals dance that you can toss a single die at with no worries.

Rawdogg15
19-06-2014, 14:12
So, I'm now getting the impression that 2 units of ten wraiths causes problems with the rest of the list. Namely, if the vampire lord is mounted or flies, he becomes more of a target for canons and spells etc. If he isn't mounted flying, he can't keep up with he fast moving units that he needs to be near to make sure they march. The only answer to this seems to be to drop a wraith unit in favour of the clichéd knight bus. Is there no other way around this dichotomy?

Rawdogg15
19-06-2014, 17:52
Okay, I have a feeling that I know what the feedback on this will be but I think it follows most of the advice. No zombies in the list so I am betting that the advice will be to drop the skeletons and put those points into zombie tarpits. As I mentioned earlier though. I reeeeeeeally like the way I've painted my skeletons. I also don't like zombie models at all. Will this really prevent the list from being competitive?


Vampire Lord (478)
Ogre Blade; Talisman of Preservation; The Other Trickster's Shard; Red Fury; Quickblood; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of the Vampires; hand weapon; lance; shield; heavy armour
Barded Nightmare

Necromancer (145)
Dispel Scroll; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of Death; hand weapon; Master of the Dead

Vampire (205)
Banner of Eternal Flame; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of the Vampires; hand weapon; lance; shield; heavy armour; barded nightmare


39 Skeleton Warriors (225)
hand weapons; light armour; shields; spears; musician; standard bearer; Skeleton Champion


40 Crypt Ghouls (410) Crypt Ghast


5 Dire Wolves (50)


5 Dire Wolves (50)


10 Hexwraiths (320)
great weapons; standard bearer; Hellwraith


10 Black Knights (290)
hand weapons; heavy armour; shields; barding; lances; musician; standard bearer; Hell Knight


Terrorgheist (225)





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King Arthur
22-06-2014, 11:25
The last list is a large improvement but your model count especially for VC what is the function of the vampire Bsb? (Is it a deathstar please tell me if it is a deathstar) The re directors will help you get across the board with that nasty BK unit as a cavalry general you can vanguard screen with your wolves first turn so they miss a round of shooting. I may be going against the crowd but in my eyes I would prefer 130 zombies to 40 crypt ghouls any day of the week for a classic hammer and anvil tactic, then you have large combat blocks (split into two units of 65) . I just think especially in this list would be more effective.

Rawdogg15
22-06-2014, 16:28
The two vampire characters would go in the BK bus as a kind of Death Star but largely so that they can keep pace with the wraiths and the gheist to allow them to march. I have accepted that everyone is right about zombies but there are two reasons that I can't bring myself to put so many in the list 1) I just don't like the way they look on the table 2) it would be soul destroying to drop my already painted skellies or ghouls and line up 130 grey plastic zombies on a painting production line. I guess I could look at eBay or commission painting services but that very much feels like cheating to me!

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
30-06-2014, 17:23
Drop both Hellwraiths. You are already heavily invested in the hex's and the champions aren't worth the points for those units. They aren't at their best in close combat..

No no no no no. Hellwraith is invaluable. Yeah you don't WANT your hexxies in combat, but that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. For 10 points your hex wraith can challenge out a character and tank him for a turn. If a demon prince does 5 wounds on the unit it explodes. If he does 5 wounds on the champion you still have 4 hexxies left, and he's locked in combat where your terrorgheist can scream at him and save the hexxies.

Not to mention that he can protect a flank from a flank charge by, say, skull crushers with ensorcelled weapons. Even an 18" march isn't enough to get out of the way of danger all the time, and your general isn't always going to be around.


As the previous poster said, a mount on your lord is a liability unless he can join a unit. He can't join the ethereal hex units, so at best he can stay near them, and I forget if he can get a look at sir near the hex's. I think you can do that but even if he can, its only a 4+, and he will be targeted, alot, so it will be failed. Better to lose the mount, and place him in the zombie unit with the hero vamp.

4+ LoS! / 4++ isn't that bad. You're still saving 75% of wounds. You can also screen him with your tbat, so that the cannon has to wound and kill the big gribbly first. Even better, you can hide him in your bunker behind a wall of crypt horrors. 3 wound 5+ regen horrors catch cannonballs like a boss.


Place him on a croner, and the hero in the next slot. Any challenger will be subject to the nightshroud, lose any strength bonus, and become asl.

Trouble with this is two-fold:

1) he can get stepped on. Demon princes and dragon lords will crash in, challenge, and squish your poor little vampire. It happens more easily than you think.

2) and easier than that is that your vampire gets negated with a champion on the outside, or some other unit that minimizes his effectiveness. A nurgle chariot, say, while the skullcrushers go to town on the rest of the unit.

If something can actually kill him then this is a good plan. But otherwise I'd rather have him in the middle, and drop the night shroud in favour of something that can actually kill stuff. The Vampire's best defense is that, at T5 4+4++ 3W, by the time you do enough wounds to threaten him he's murdered most of your unit and you've broken from combat.

Mc1gamer
30-06-2014, 19:57
Everyone has an opinion, and if that works for you, great. However, the Hellwraith points are far better spend on other things. Those 20 points are not going to matter if you get shot (and you will) with magical arrows, or magic missle spells (and they will!). Same # of wounds. If you get charged, the Hellwraiths won't help. A smart enemy will do so with a unit or model that is likely to be able to affect them, or have enough static combat res with ranks, banner, maybe flank, that your low volume of attacks will be hard pressed to overcome. In both cases expect to crumble fast. Sorry, but Hellwraiths are not a smart factor competitively. Just get the unit vanilla and be done, and spend those extra points on padding up another area, or towards some fellbats for cannon hunting, etc. They are quite good at what they are supposed to do without the champ points.

Next, I don't know anyone that would suggest a lone VL on a mount. Its asking for trouble. Sorry, but for our army in particular, you just don't want to risk taking what can be multiple warmachine fire. Further, you are asking for things like skinks, elves, any other kind of mass shooting, to pepper you with shots. Yes, your high T will help, and the armor, and the ward or regen. However, if you get 40 shots, some will get thru and some will result in failed rolls on your part. It happens ALL the time. For other armies, you can survive to loss of the lord. For ours, its just about an insta loss. As to the opinion on the nightshroud, no kit is going to be effective all the time, and you can argue just about any scenario against some load-out of items. However, if you are getting charged by that chariot, instead of you charging it, you did something wrong and you have more issues than whether or not you positioned the lord in the corner or the middle and had a nightshroud next to him.

Now, I'm not looking to get into a sparring contest. Again, everyone has their opinions and what they view as what works and does not. However, PRND, I think more times than not your suggestion is going to lead to a loss, either because of wasted points on less effective units, or leaving your General out there with his peter in the wind, begging to have his ward fail, resulting in army crumble. Protect your General, its one of the most important things you can do with this army. If you aren't doing that, prepare for many short games if you are playing tourneys. Bet on it.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
30-06-2014, 22:39
I ran my solo Vamp at my last tournament. Lost him 3 times. Once to the unkillable WoC BSB in a game that I won. Once to the unkillable WoC BSB in a game that I lost. And once against Wood Elves where I effectively got tabled.

Having him on a hellsteed also helped him kill a demon prince (who couldn't thunderstomp him), and won me the game against ogres (jumped over his entire army and butchered his general, BSB, cannon, and a good portion of the rest of his army).


Is it better than having him in a BK bus? No; that is the optimal strategy. But compared to having him on foot, there are pluses and minuses.

Both times I lost him it was because I was overly aggressive, he got charged and challenged by something he couldn't do wounds to, and then died to crumble res (BSB+charge+flank=dead). However I'm also still inside my first dozen games with the army, so I'm not fully comfortable with it.

The pluses of having him able to fly is that you can 1) dynamically rebalance what parts of your army he is in, 2) he can't be stomped, 3) he can charge out an incredible distance in situations where it's necessary, and catch your opponent unawares.

The downside is that 1) he will catch cannonballs, 2) he is vulnerable to SCR, 3) he can get challenge-tanked, and 4) it's very tempting to be too risky and aggressive with him.


To correct for 1) you can run him with hex wraiths, or behind a terrorgheist/crypt horror brick. The cannons will struggle to kill those things and that'll protect your vampire. Against 3) you can run him with things that can take the challenge for him (another hero vampire for instance, or hex wraiths/vargheists/crypt horrors with a champion). Against 2 and 4 you just have to police yourself, and know what he's getting into.

Mc1gamer
30-06-2014, 22:57
You cannot run him with Hex's. They are ethereal and you aren't allowed to join that unit if you aren't ethereal. Its a rule, check it. However, you can run your Hellsteed Lord within 3" and get a 4+ look out sir, as long as you are nearby. Still pretty risky, but at least some form of protection from shooting. Behind your TG/CH, sure, will help IF the bounce doesn't hit exactly on your vamp, and if it lands prior to the vamp, in either of those units, and IF they don't die. Lots of ifs. Sure, your TG gets a 6+ (not great!) and 6 wounds (not hard to do with cannons!). Its not really a struggle even vs CH's, wounding them on 2's and a 5+ regen that could be cancelled with flaming shooting in the same phase. A Mortis will help but not a guarantee. I DO agree that you should have either a Hero or a Champ to take challenges, so your blender can get lots of kills in the rank and file. Also I've run both mounted in a BK bus and ground, in a unit of infantry. BOTH are viable, and yes, you just have to be smart. Either way, the whole point is getting your VL into close combat asap, so you 1) don't get shot at 2) start doing what he is meant to do, kill enemy models. The optimal way is with a BK bus that is fast moving. That's the most competitive way, though costly. With infantry its slower, but a bit safer as more bodies have to be taken out till you lose a LOS. The flip side is that most infantry models are very fragile, and can seriously counter the kills you make with the blender lord. Even with Grave Guard, they will die in droves. The key is to kill more than get killed, or at least more than die to crumble, and raise them back just as fast in your next magic phase. That's why I also like at least 2 casters who can take Invocation.

In the end its a matter of style and preference, but overall, certain methods have been proved more/less risky. Nothing is fool proof with all the variables some things that work alot will fail (like your 2+ armor/4+ ward!) and some that are risky will succeed (like making that 6+ regen on your Terrorbat vs a cannon shot!).

To the OP, have fun finding out, don't get discouraged when your lord dies. Just learn from the mistakes to try to mitigate it as much as possible.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-07-2014, 02:05
You cannot run him with Hex's. They are ethereal and you aren't allowed to join that unit if you aren't ethereal. Its a rule, check it. However, you can run your Hellsteed Lord within 3" and get a 4+ look out sir, as long as you are nearby. Still pretty risky, but at least some form of protection from shooting. Behind your TG/CH, sure, will help IF the bounce doesn't hit exactly on your vamp, and if it lands prior to the vamp, in either of those units, and IF they don't die. Lots of ifs.

That's exactly what I meant. And yeah it's a lot of "if's," but so is "IF your vampire doesn't fail his 2+ Look Out Sir." There are lots of ways to skin a cat...or in this case paste a vampire with a cannonball.

What's really going on here is the trading of one vulnerability for another one. On foot your armour is weaker, and you're vulnerable to thunderstomps. He's also less mobile, less flexible, and can't dynamically relocate within your armour as easily. Is that a worthwhile trade off? Maybe. Really depends on your playstyle. Foot vampire isn't as flexible, which didn't appeal to me. There are kinks in the hellsteed vamp that I'm still working out, but I'm not entirely displeased with the build. The only



Sure, your TG gets a 6+ (not great!) and 6 wounds (not hard to do with cannons!). Its not really a struggle even vs CH's, wounding them on 2's and a 5+ regen that could be cancelled with flaming shooting in the same phase.

Let's say your vampire is behind a terror bat, and within 3" of some hex wraiths. Assuming that the cannon didn't screw up (didn't bounce far enough, misfired), then he has to wound the terrorgheist (5/6), get past the regen (5/6), kill the terrorgheist (1/6), wound the vampire (5/6), get past the lookout sir (3/6) and get past the ward (3/6) then do enough wounds to kill him (4/6). There's a 2% chance of doing that with both at full wounds. For reference there's a 5% chance of that happening to a vampire in a BK bus or GG unit.



The optimal way is with a BK bus that is fast moving. That's the most competitive way, though costly. With infantry its slower, but a bit safer as more bodies have to be taken out till you lose a LOS. The flip side is that most infantry models are very fragile, and can seriously counter the kills you make with the blender lord. Even with Grave Guard, they will die in droves. The key is to kill more than get killed, or at least more than die to crumble, and raise them back just as fast in your next magic phase. That's why I also like at least 2 casters who can take Invocation.

In the end its a matter of style and preference, but overall, certain methods have been proved more/less risky. Nothing is fool proof with all the variables some things that work alot will fail (like your 2+ armor/4+ ward!) and some that are risky will succeed (like making that 6+ regen on your Terrorbat vs a cannon shot!).

To the OP, have fun finding out, don't get discouraged when your lord dies. Just learn from the mistakes to try to mitigate it as much as possible.

I agree with all of the above.

The hellsteed method has a lot of issues, but it's a fun way to throw a wrench into your opponent's plans. And honestly, coming up against cannons is just as deadly to the netlist BK Bus + double Tbat list as it is my single tbat and hellsteed vamp. I have tricks to keep him alive for that first turn, then hide him in combat the rest. It's risky, but fun when it catches my opponents off guard.

Not to mention that many armies don't have cannons, and when they don't the hellsteed is great fun. He just mulches stuff on his own, with no skeletons or grave guard to drag down his combat score.

Borgomos
01-07-2014, 05:37
No no no no no. Hellwraith is invaluable. Yeah you don't WANT your hexxies in combat, but that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. For 10 points your hex wraith can challenge out a character and tank him for a turn. If a demon prince does 5 wounds on the unit it explodes. If he does 5 wounds on the champion you still have 4 hexxies left, and he's locked in combat where your terrorgheist can scream at him and save the hexxies.

Correct me if i am wrong, but if a DP squashes your champ with an overkill that carries on as combat resolution and your unit crumbles anyway. (Up to 5 anyway, ain't that how challenge + overkill works ?)

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-07-2014, 07:31
Correct me if i am wrong, but if a DP squashes your champ with an overkill that carries on as combat resolution and your unit crumbles anyway. (Up to 5 anyway, ain't that how challenge + overkill works ?)

Yes, but that way you only lose 1 hex wraith (unstable losses) compared to two (losses + unstable losses).


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Rawdogg15
05-07-2014, 22:37
Loving the banter this has created. Almost didn't want to interrupt, I've learnt so much from it! List has now changed again though. See what you make of this.

Vampire lord - 433
Level 1, Barded nightmare, quickblood, red fury, ogre blade, talisman of preservation, other trickster's shard, heavy armour, shield.

Vampire - 255
Great weapon, shield, level 2, nightshroud, warrior bane, beguile.

Necromancer - 140
Level 2 lore of death, dispel scroll, talisman of protection,

34 crypt ghouls - 350
Ghast

35 skeletons - 205
Full command, spears, shields

5 dire wolves - 50
Doom wolf

5 dire wolves - 50
Doom wolf

10 Hexwraiths - 310
Hellwraith

10 Black Knights - 290
Full command, barding, lances

Spirit host - 45

Spirit host - 45

Terrorgheist - 225

I can see the pluses and minuses for the Hellwraith but essentially the only reason I'm keeping him in is because I'm planning a really cool conversion of a Nurgle hero.


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Shadeseraph
05-07-2014, 23:12
Hey, in the end the most important point is to love your army. Skeletons? sure, they aren't as efficient as ghouls or zombies, but if you like them you'll make them work. Hellwraith? same with the Hellwraith.

In general, that list is quite solid, and should work for you. Minor point: your basic vampire doesn't make sense. Great Weapon + magic weapon + shield means you are forced to always use the magic weapon and the shield (you can't choose, you must use always your magic weapon if you have one, and a special weapon over your hand weapon otherwise). That, and the warrior bane is, sorry to say this, a waste of points. If you intend to keep the nightshroud, I'd suggest staying with a great weapon or an additional hand weapon, and maybe an Ironcurse Icon or a Seed of Rebirth. At most, for a defensive setup, shield + Steel Bite or shield + one of the previously mentioned items, or just hand weapon + shield to benefit from parry.

Rawdogg15
06-07-2014, 16:21
Yeah, I knew I would have to go back to the setup on the normal vampire. He seems to be the most problematic one in the list. One reason for that is whether or not there's really any point making him a BSB or not. If so would a flaming/war banner be useful? If not, is night shroud actually worth it or would I be better off with +2 attacks, ASF or some of the other vampiric powers? Any more advice on this more than welcome :)

Mc1gamer
06-07-2014, 18:10
Night Shroud is VERY worth it. I posted previously a very common tactic where your VL is on the outer most corner of your unit, and right next to him is the WK with a Nightshroud. Firstly, this will make all three standard sized bases of enemies in base contact ASL, and lost any strength bonus on return attacks, whether with magical or standard weapons. This is huge, as it increases not only your WK's survivability, but your VL, who is T5! Next, even though your VL is likely to get his attacks off first, it could slow down other early attacks from higher init on your Vamp Hero or at least one rank and file, and if not (because if you are fighting elves they will have asf too, and those cancel, meaning back to Init order, which you could lose) at least you negate their str bonuses. Those are extremely key points and will especially impact challenges. You don't remove both combatants for a challenge. Instead, your VL issues a challenge, and the opponent answers and must move their model in base contact with the VL. If they align right up, the Shroud affects them. If they try to align corner to corner, they are still touching the Wk and will still be under its affects. All good stuff!

Now the previous poster is right, you can't have mundane weapons and magical. Lose the magical. You can take the Great Weapon, and hope that your decent Hero Vamp init means you go before others who are relegated to ASL due to the Shroud. Its a decent tactic but you need to be careful against anyone who can blow up magic items (High Elves). I don't think you are better off with the +2 attacks though. You want to not only be able to wound on those hits you make with your native attacks, but punch as much thru armor as possible. If you only rely on your VL, if he gets held up in challenges, you need some punch, and at least it means if you instead have your VH do the challenges, he's a serious threat to anyone he meets due to their lost of Str and being ASL, and you have +2 str too. Use the extra points for something small, like the suggested. I like the Ironcurse Ico and Seed of Rebirth suggestions, and I've used both. If you have a Mortis Engine nearby, Seed is great, b/c now you have a 5+ regen on your hero. Iron curse is great if you are putting them in a horde of pricey models, like Black Knights or Grave Guard. If hit by warmachines, it helps save some models. I like taking a BSB as a VC player b/c it mitigates quite a few losses from crumble, AND its never a bad idea to have more combat res in the unit your General is going to be in. I personally like the Wight Kind over the Vamp hero. Yes, the VH has level 1 casting default, but that's what extra Necro's are for. He's too squishy at 2 wounds. I prefer the WK as the BSB, with high T, decent Str, and KB. Since he's next to your VL, who you are giving the Other Tricksters Shard, your opponent with have to reroll any ward saves vs Killing Blow, and that's kinda nice with your 3 attacks potentially wounding on 2's. Also, while a VH can be toughened with the Vamp powers, they wind up rather costly for a medium T, 2 wound character. Those extra points could give you another level 1-2 necro for spamming Invocation, or raising dead, or whatever. Or you could get an extra BK or 2, if you instead took a medium costed WK. Just a thought.

Don't waste points on too much defensive stuff, outside of your VL. Your Death necro is likely to 6 dice a major Death spell, and get sucked into the warp. So giving him another magic item can be a waste of points. Leave them naked imho. If they die taking out enemy models, they'll make their points back. Tool them up too much and you will not get a favorable trade when they inevitably sacrifice themselves.

In the end, you should simply playtest the list yourself. Always play what you like, what you enjoy, even if not the most competitive, and you will enjoy painting them and playing them. See what works and adapt too, and the only way to do that soundly is to play and see how it shakes out.

Shadeseraph
07-07-2014, 02:07
With that list, I do think that secondary vampire is worth it over a Wight King. Mostly, because otherwise his only spell from lore of the vampires is going to be the one the vampire lord holds. And that makes prioritizing magic quite easy for the opponent, which means you are possibly going to need to 6-dice any attempt at casting that single vampire lore spell. Which is not a good idea if you have to do it with your VL. Even if you are going magic light, VC armies -need- magic to be effective.

That, and while the WK is more resilient, he is also less killy than a vampire. I believe you want him to command one of the foot blocks, rather than go by the side of your vampire lord in the BK bus. In this case, killy is important. That said, most people use both vampire lord and secondary melee character together in a single bus to maximize power (and create the so-called deathstar), but that's your call.

In general, GW tend to be the better option, because AS 1+ and AS 2+ are very popular. Otherwise, a sword of anti-heroes is always a good choice (Characters are the only really scary thing to vampires, and +1S and +1A on a character that already has S5 and 4A is great). I'd suggest dropping the nightshroud for a character on foot though: it is far more useful on a mounted character, as it effectively makes Armor Saves much more powerful. Specially on a vampire, as they are a bit soft without a decent armor save, even with the nightshroud.

Finally, I'm not too fond of BSBs in VC armies: their benefit is relatively small, and it's worth 100 additional VPs to your opponent.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
07-07-2014, 19:43
Loving the banter this has created. Almost didn't want to interrupt, I've learnt so much from it! List has now changed again though. See what you make of this.

Vampire lord - 433
Level 1, Barded nightmare, quickblood, red fury, ogre blade, talisman of preservation, other trickster's shard, heavy armour, shield.

Vampire - 255
Great weapon, shield, level 2, nightshroud, warrior bane, beguile.

Necromancer - 140
Level 2 lore of death, dispel scroll, talisman of protection,

34 crypt ghouls - 350
Ghast

35 skeletons - 205
Full command, spears, shields

5 dire wolves - 50
Doom wolf

5 dire wolves - 50
Doom wolf

10 Hexwraiths - 310
Hellwraith

10 Black Knights - 290
Full command, barding, lances

Spirit host - 45

Spirit host - 45

Terrorgheist - 225

I can see the pluses and minuses for the Hellwraith but essentially the only reason I'm keeping him in is because I'm planning a really cool conversion of a Nurgle hero.


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<yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn>

Your old list had character. This one is just another BK-bus VC list. This is what happens when you rely too much on the consolidated wisdom of the internet: you end up with the 'netlist,' and your army looks the same as thousands of tournament VC lists before it.

edit: though I just realized you only have a level 2. That's not good enough. Either put 4 levels onto your VL or cough up the points for a level 3 somewhere. You'll get bowled over by your opponents magic phases elsewise.

Mc1gamer
07-07-2014, 19:57
He asked for evaluation of Tournament play. Casual/Friendly play, hey, play whatever list you think would be fun, but for Tournament play, people are going to throw out what works. I don't run the BK bus myself in Tournaments (I like heavy infantry, lots of Crypt Horrors and ME's), and only once in casual play, but if you are going to run a mounted VC list, you mine as well at least hear what others have proven actually works. If I was going hardcore tourney, I'd thin out his above list considerably. Infact, I'd lighten the VL much, add in a naked level 3 or 4 master necro, Add a WK and baby Necro (death caster/dispel caddy) and add in a second TG. I'd have 100+ zombies and three units of wolves too. But hey, that'd be a carbon copy according you right? You are correct at least in that he does need a level 4 caster, or many level 1-2's for Invocation spam. Either/or. His above list is somewhat a compromise. He'll just have to test it out and see for himself what works and what he enjoys, something I've said in nearly every post I've made.

Rawdogg15
07-07-2014, 23:57
I love the fact that this thread is like trying to reconcile the two halves of my own conscious. I took a fluffy OnG list to Throne of Skulls and got smashed. If I take VC to a tournament (and I'm eyeing up blood and glory) I'd like to be half if not fully competitive. However, I do appreciate the point of view that net lists are dull and will definitely be trying the 20 hexwraiths idea in club play at some point.

What I have realised since writing the most recent list also is that, at blood and glory, fortitude is a must. Therefore the BK bus is useful because it has a command group. I'll also need to put more banners in the army somehow and that will mean *sigh* zombies I expect :(

Thanks for all your input though guys. I really appreciate the time and energy you've expended over this mulling process. The fact that we all take slightly different things from the hobby is one of the things I really love about it!


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Mc1gamer
08-07-2014, 00:18
Glad to help. Let us know how it goes!

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
08-07-2014, 06:03
He asked for evaluation of Tournament play. Casual/Friendly play, hey, play whatever list you think would be fun, but for Tournament play, people are going to throw out what works. I don't run the BK bus myself in Tournaments (I like heavy infantry, lots of Crypt Horrors and ME's), and only once in casual play, but if you are going to run a mounted VC list, you mine as well at least hear what others have proven actually works. If I was going hardcore tourney, I'd thin out his above list considerably. Infact, I'd lighten the VL much, add in a naked level 3 or 4 master necro, Add a WK and baby Necro (death caster/dispel caddy) and add in a second TG. I'd have 100+ zombies and three units of wolves too. But hey, that'd be a carbon copy according you right? You are correct at least in that he does need a level 4 caster, or many level 1-2's for Invocation spam. Either/or. His above list is somewhat a compromise. He'll just have to test it out and see for himself what works and what he enjoys, something I've said in nearly every post I've made.


There's two issues that I take with netlist armies:

1) People recognize them as netlist armies and walk into the game with a negative judgment against you, barely before you've even said hello. If you're shooting for the coveted "Best Overall" that's potentially hurting your sportsmanship and thus your chances.

2) People anticipate netlist armies. This means they have the counters built into their list. It also means that they probably have a very good idea of what your battleplan will be and how to counter it.



I like to point at my friend's Bretonnian list as an example. The "netlist" Bret list is the character wall list, which lines the front of one or two lances with nasty paladins and a HKB lord. It's in combat turn 2, and either substantially smashes you on the charge for the win or falters and that's basically game.

My friend, however, took a tournament with a similar LOOKING list that ran Heavens, a larger number of SMALLER lances, and a character in each to give them some punch. He also had a funny toolkit build on a peg pally that is surprisingly effective, and of course the double trebs with peasants in front for the fences.

They look the same, and people expected it to play the same, but it didn't. He'd sit back and hammer you with comets, chain lightnings, while dancing around you with his lances. Then, only once you were substantially softened up, would he go in for the kill. It was both more effective than the regular list (which relied on a lot of dice luck), but was also PERCEIVED as a more balanced list since it avoided the deathstar-y shenanigans that the more "netlisty" players run.



That's the issue I have with the VC netlist. Yeah it's scary, but everyone knows WHAT is scary and how to deal with it, because they've faced it a thousand times. Same thing with the Warriors netlist, or the cauldronstar, or any often-seen "tournament list." You don't see these lists on the top tables, because they don't offer the surprise-factor or the flexibility that you need to get up there. These are the lists that define the meta, and counters to them are the bulk of that.

Rawdogg15
08-07-2014, 22:58
I agree with both those reasons, they make plenty of sense and, when I set out on this thread, I certainly wasn't trying to netlist. The thing about the netlist is, it's the netlist for a reason I.e. It is solid at the very least. I am under no illusions about my own Warhammer ability - I'm not very good. I took a fairly soft Orc list to throne of skulls (lots of savage Orc boar boys and the battleaxe of the last waaagh) and got my ass handed to me. If I go to another tournament (and as mentioned above, I'm eyeing up blood and glory) my aim will be to not get smashed. I can live with hanging round the bottom tables, I can even handle losing every game again, but the main thing I want to be able to do is go toe to toe a bit more. I appreciate what you say about sports votes though and, because of that, my list writing is not done yet.

You might snore at the black knight bus and it may well be what every VC army totes but I actually put it in because I love the fluff. Ancient knights, once the proud leaders of rich and noble households, now reduced to bone, servants to the dark side. It also develops the skeleton theme of the army and is obviously a pretty good unit. I'm definitely going to be trying the 20 hexwraiths on game nights though. I've even considered dropping the terrorgheist to try and fit in more hexwraiths AND the knights.

Suffice to say, I'm finding it much more difficult to write VC lists than OnG lists. The main problem I've got with Blood and Glory in mind is how the heck to get more banners into the list. Only skeletons and zombies can take them in core. Other than that, where does the fortitude come from?




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PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
09-07-2014, 17:05
I agree with both those reasons, they make plenty of sense and, when I set out on this thread, I certainly wasn't trying to netlist. The thing about the netlist is, it's the netlist for a reason I.e. It is solid at the very least. I am under no illusions about my own Warhammer ability - I'm not very good. I took a fairly soft Orc list to throne of skulls (lots of savage Orc boar boys and the battleaxe of the last waaagh) and got my ass handed to me. If I go to another tournament (and as mentioned above, I'm eyeing up blood and glory) my aim will be to not get smashed. I can live with hanging round the bottom tables, I can even handle losing every game again, but the main thing I want to be able to do is go toe to toe a bit more. I appreciate what you say about sports votes though and, because of that, my list writing is not done yet.

You might snore at the black knight bus and it may well be what every VC army totes but I actually put it in because I love the fluff. Ancient knights, once the proud leaders of rich and noble households, now reduced to bone, servants to the dark side. It also develops the skeleton theme of the army and is obviously a pretty good unit. I'm definitely going to be trying the 20 hexwraiths on game nights though. I've even considered dropping the terrorgheist to try and fit in more hexwraiths AND the knights.

Suffice to say, I'm finding it much more difficult to write VC lists than OnG lists. The main problem I've got with Blood and Glory in mind is how the heck to get more banners into the list. Only skeletons and zombies can take them in core. Other than that, where does the fortitude come from?




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Fair enough.


People on the VC forums will swear up and down that you need two terrorgheists. I'm not so convinced. Against canny lists you're going to lose both in a hurry, same against skinks. One will pull his weight against everyone else though, and playing down 200 points isn't the end of the world.

Having two units of hex wraiths orbiting around your bus is always good fun. Definitely helps their mobility. I would suggest bringing the Scroll of Shielding on one of your necros to give them a little bit of durability at least against magic missiles.

Otherwise, I find that people really overemphasize the viability of netlists. There is a lot of area for deviation from them while still having a very strong list. Much of that is personal preference, and the sorts of lists you find yourself up against. I highly recommend that you take these suggestions and try them out in at least 6 games before your tournament. Then you'll get a better idea of what units fit your playstyle best. Basically everything in the VC book is pretty viable...