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SpanielBear
21-06-2014, 20:32
A thought just occurred to me. Have there been any model releases for fantasy, excluding clam-packs, that have *not* been a dual kit since the High-Elf release?

If not, I can't believe it took me this long to spot it...

Malagor
21-06-2014, 20:34
Bastiladon comes to mind.

SpanielBear
21-06-2014, 20:44
Bastiladon comes to mind.

Sotek Ark/ Burning Gem of Burning Doom that burns. Doomily.

To be fair, I think there's a good reason that you'd think that isn't a dual kit... ;)

Malagor
21-06-2014, 20:48
Didn't know what weapons options made something count as a dualkit?

SpanielBear
21-06-2014, 20:59
Didn't know what weapons options made something count as a dualkit?

Fair point, I guess that's a grey area.

Malagor
21-06-2014, 21:07
Not really, it's like saying that the Gors are a dual kit because you can give them additional hand-weapons or a shield :p.
It's the same unit no matter what you choose. Same with the Bastiladon, you only get 1 unit in the box which is the bastiladon, how you equip it is up to you but it's still 1 unit.
Compare this to everything else, 2 units in 1 box, that's a dual kit. Dark Elves even got a triple-kit.

SpanielBear
21-06-2014, 21:28
Touché. I guess with how extreme a gap there is between the weapons, it just felt like two different units.

Malagor
21-06-2014, 21:32
Was WoC and Daemons before or after High Elves ?

Avian
21-06-2014, 22:52
They were out earlier the same year.

EvanM
23-06-2014, 04:07
do you like dual kits?
I love the extra pieces.... *converts core troops into a usable block of infantry*

StygianBeach
23-06-2014, 06:15
do you like dual kits?
I love the extra pieces.... *converts core troops into a usable block of infantry*

Dual kits can be good... or crap (witch elves).

Greyshadow
23-06-2014, 07:42
I am a fan, more bits for the bits box plus easier for GW to maintain a diverse unit choice for each army - win win.

N1AK
23-06-2014, 08:49
Didn't know what weapons options made something count as a dualkit?

I suppose it depends on how you define it. The Steg kit is always a Steg it just gets a different name and/or weapons on top. Most people would call it a multi-kit because there are multiple separate entries in the army book it can be used for. Witch Elves count as a dual kit by that logic but they could easily be a single entry with two options, there's no more difference between them and the two bastiladons in terms of model variety.

theJ
23-06-2014, 10:26
do you like dual kits?
I love the extra pieces.... *converts core troops into a usable block of infantry*

Not really.
While it looks pretty good on paper, practice has given us a slew of sub-par designs on as a concequence.
I do love me some extra bitz, but there are better ways to include those - give me a single unit per box, but with multiple options in terms of both wargear and cosmetic bitz(alternate/optional heads, shields, capes, banners, pouches, secondary weapons, familiars, spites... everything and anything you can think of, really)

Would be so much better...

Malagor
23-06-2014, 10:36
I suppose it depends on how you define it. The Steg kit is always a Steg it just gets a different name and/or weapons on top. Most people would call it a multi-kit because there are multiple separate entries in the army book it can be used for. Witch Elves count as a dual kit by that logic but they could easily be a single entry with two options, there's no more difference between them and the two bastiladons in terms of model variety.
The Steg kit is indeed a multi-kit I would say, you have alot of options with it as it can be used in heroes, special and rare(and lords if someone bring the big slann).
Dual-kits to me is a box that has two units in it and you pick which one you want to build. Hammerers/Longbeards, Ironbreakers/Irondrakes, WE/Sisters of Slaughter etc
But Bastiladon box is just a bastiladon. There are no characters to put on it, nothing that makes it become another unit like the stegadon kit.
Model variety does not make something dual-kit IMO.

PlasticSwap.Com
24-06-2014, 23:02
Not really.
While it looks pretty good on paper, practice has given us a slew of sub-par designs on as a concequence.
I do love me some extra bitz, but there are better ways to include those - give me a single unit per box, but with multiple options in terms of both wargear and cosmetic bitz(alternate/optional heads, shields, capes, banners, pouches, secondary weapons, familiars, spites... everything and anything you can think of, really)

Would be so much better...

Most of the time I would disagree but i hate the shadow warriors/sisters of avelorn duel kit. You get either male elves in black clothing, or male elves with really long hair that try to look female with firey bows. You also lose the ability for a full command. In this case I would much rather have seen two seperate boxes.

Epicene
24-06-2014, 23:20
Most of the time I would disagree but i hate the shadow warriors/sisters of avelorn duel kit. You get either male elves in black clothing, or male elves with really long hair that try to look female with firey bows. You also lose the ability for a full command. In this case I would much rather have seen two seperate boxes.

That Shadow\Avelorn kid made ZERO sense to me. They'd have been better off doing

- Archers\Shadow Warriors
- Lorthern Seaguard\Maiden Guard

Changing the whole use of Maidens\Sisters was a bad idea to begin with - the dual kit with Shadow Warriors just killed the whole thing for me. I'm glad I have a unit of 20 metal Maiden Guard and some old metal Shadow Warriors. :)

Dual-Kits are fine as long as they're planned well - the Wood Elf release shows a lot of that potential :)

Ramius4
24-06-2014, 23:41
Dual-Kits are fine as long as they're planned well - the Wood Elf release shows a lot of that potential :)

To be honest, the Sisters of the Thorn felt a bit 'bolted on' to me. Good sculpts, but in some ways they look like a leftover idea from High Elves.

And I can't stand how they give you the absolute least amount of bits possible to build either unit, but not have enough bits left over to utilize what's left without adding something else.

Imperator64
25-06-2014, 02:03
To be honest, the Sisters of the Thorn felt a bit 'bolted on' to me. Good sculpts, but in some ways they look like a leftover idea from High Elves.

And I can't stand how they give you the absolute least amount of bits possible to build either unit, but not have enough bits left over to utilize what's left without adding something else.
That's probably intentional. They dont want you putting unused bits together to replace the pretty new kits they've just made.

Ramius4
25-06-2014, 04:39
That's probably intentional. They dont want you putting unused bits together to replace the pretty new kits they've just made.

I'm not even talking about replacing things. For instance the Wild Rider torso requires the right arm holding the spear shaft. The same arm that you use for the Sisters. And these arms don't connect at the shoulder. Oh no, instead they cut them off at the elbow, with an uneven surface. It's like they want to make it as hard as possible to use the leftover bitz.

Same with the heads and hair. They're separate pieces, but there's only enough hair for 5 models.

I'm not saying the pieces are impossible to use for conversions and such. Just extremely difficult.

Malagor
25-06-2014, 04:57
- Archers\Shadow Warriors
- Lorthern Seaguard\Maiden Guard

Except that would be bad for the players.
You get 16 archers right now for a decent price, had they been a dual kit, you would only get 10 of them and the price would be the same as the current price for the shadow warriors.
Same with the other one, less models and higher cost.
Granted, the spearmen aren't a very nice model but atleast you got plenty of them.

CrystalSphere
25-06-2014, 10:35
I have to say that most dual kits end up looking terrible, i much prefer the old metal miniatures (ex. old shadow warriors or executioners/blackguard) over the new ones. The recent trend i have seen is that the smaller the miniatures are, like humanoid size, the worse dual kits are. Some are half decent like the tomb king sphinx or the ogre kingdom thundertusk, they give you a few spare bits too, but i really wish GW would stop this practice and go back to the 1 kit per box. How would have white lions looked if they had been mixed with phoenix guard? Probably quite bad.

Bladelord
25-06-2014, 11:19
Not really.
While it looks pretty good on paper, practice has given us a slew of sub-par designs on as a concequence.
I do love me some extra bitz, but there are better ways to include those - give me a single unit per box, but with multiple options in terms of both wargear and cosmetic bitz(alternate/optional heads, shields, capes, banners, pouches, secondary weapons, familiars, spites... everything and anything you can think of, really)

Would be so much better...

Indeed. Torso+legs for X models & then a variety of wargear & heads for each model, kinda like the Free Company pack. I don't play Empire or ever been interested in painting/converting imperial models, but I bought a box of Free Company just so I could have some fun kitbashing a band of pirates & milita.

ashc
27-06-2014, 17:04
I can't help but defend gw when it comes to dual kits; business-wise they make perfect sense.

What they stupidly did though was then tell players that it was brilliant that they paid a premium to expand their bitsbox. :rolleyes:

Captain Collius
29-06-2014, 02:05
I suppose it depends on how you define it. The Steg kit is always a Steg it just gets a different name and/or weapons on top. Most people would call it a multi-kit because there are multiple separate entries in the army book it can be used for. Witch Elves count as a dual kit by that logic but they could easily be a single entry with two options, there's no more difference between them and the two bastiladons in terms of model variety.

True but the steg kit also contains the only way to make Skink command for cohorts. so its a sort of old dual kit

falcone
29-06-2014, 04:56
I sure don't like the price...

Sir_Glonojad
29-06-2014, 05:12
Yeah, Witch Elf kit really got hurt with this practice. There's so little variety with somemodels rhat You end with doubled models even in a unit of 20, not to mention 30 or more... So it is really little better than in the times if 4/5th ediotion monopose plastics (which costed 5GBP for 8, by the way).

innerwolf
29-06-2014, 07:02
Didn't know what weapons options made something count as a dualkit?

Even when they are separate unit entries, the Hurricanium and the Luminark differ exactly in the same way as the two Bastiladon units. And they are considered a dual kit.

Sir_Glonojad
29-06-2014, 07:50
That is a nice rule of the thumb, still - I remember the times when Dark Elf Warriors kit was a single set, not a triple one - it's just the matter of definition in the Army Book.

bigbiggles
29-06-2014, 08:36
Ahhh, that's the triple kit. Forgot about the shield guys

theJ
30-06-2014, 10:04
On a slightly happier note, I recently picked up some warriors for my brand new Dwarf army.
Got 12shield designs, following three distinct themes(winged hammers, hammer & anvil, and fancy face thingy), a multitude of different weapons, three(!) different banners, plus various pouches and whatnot, and to top it all off, they're easy to combine with the other Dwarf kits(hence why the unit now includes a few pistols and a pickaxe).
In addition to THAT, there are 16models in the kit, giving me a unit of 15(which unlike units of 10, is actually not *****, at least in smaller games), plus an easily converted character(I made him a standard bearer. Not sure how I'm gonna fit him into my list, but I recon he'll come in handy eventually)

Now THAT is how you design a kit!
I'm already looking forward to getting another, bringing my unit up to 30, which should be large enough for up to 2k-ish battles, and if I add bitz from the cannon and thunderer kits, I should be able to make a pretty cool looking engineer with the 16th member.

's funny, I've heard quite a few people complain about the kit, but I'm just not seeing any issues at all. Maybe separate heads would be nice, so I could have less horny hats, and maybe they look worse if you take great weapons rather than HW+shield... but it's kinda too late for me to find that out now, innit?

I don't see why they had to move away from designs like that...

Malagor
30-06-2014, 10:51
Even when they are separate unit entries, the Hurricanium and the Luminark differ exactly in the same way as the two Bastiladon units. And they are considered a dual kit.
There are no 2 bastiladon units as I stated before.
The bastiladon kit is for 1 unit and 1 unit only. There is nothing else there.
The hurricanium and luminark are 2 units.

Alltaken
30-06-2014, 12:41
The ancient steg is 1 unit too, with a wierd lower profile option for another selection.
The eotg itself is not a unit.

Malagor
30-06-2014, 12:50
I would count the stega as 2 units tho.
Two seperate entries, different point costs, equipment, stats and you can have characters on both of them.
Stega is a dual kit without a doubt in my mind.

Alltaken
30-06-2014, 13:40
Well, they're 2 unit entries and 1 mount, wether if its just 1 real unit in the end. Their change model change is quite smaller than the bastiladon too, which begs to question is it unit, or building options that you consider for dual kit status? I consider the bastiladon as dual. Because its logical not to make another unit in the army book and call it a configuration swap and be done with it.

Nubl0
30-06-2014, 13:45
I think the new eternal guard kit is awesome, didn't really suffer from being a dual kit either.

Malagor
30-06-2014, 13:52
Well to me dual kits are a box that contains 2 units within it. Longbeards/hammerers, witch elves/sisters and so on.
They are two seperate entries in the army books and so on.
As I said before, gors aren't a dual kit since you can only make models for 1 unit with them(officially of course). They got options for equipment but they are still just gors.
Longbears are core, they have certain stats, points costs etc, hammerers are special, different stats, points costs and all that.
Model-wise they are quite similar, only their heads and that they got hammers seperates them from their longbeard brothers(and shoulder pads) but they are a dual kit still.
Dark elf warriors and thunderers kits are triple-kits since you can make 3 different units with them.
That's my definition of it and why bastiladon is not a dual-kit.

Luigi
30-06-2014, 14:16
But then the same kit can change with editions.
Before the advent of the current longbeard/hammerer packages longbeards had no official model (bar the metal ones).
even in the army book the Eavy Metal team said "to make longbeard we gave these models (the plastic warriors) masks and painted their beards grey to reflect their old age."
So up until a few months ago the dwarf warriors' box could be considered a double kit. Now that the longbeards have obtained a new box, the old warriors packaging can no longer be considered a dual kit, or am I wrong?

Alltaken
30-06-2014, 14:47
Luigi sometimes thats enough to differentiate. EG and WWR are quite distinct on just heads and arms (weapons). Though I dont like the look of shieldles EG really. But thats me.

Luigi
30-06-2014, 15:35
Luigi sometimes thats enough to differentiate. EG and WWR are quite distinct on just heads and arms (weapons). Though I dont like the look of shieldles EG really. But thats me.

Oh I wasn't complaining or anything. I was just pointing it out. I find it curious how it could be argued that a newer model has invalidated one of the options of older boxes

Deff Mekz
01-07-2014, 00:26
My main problem with dual kits is that 90% of the time only one of the optional builds looks decent, with the other looking awkward and forced. On top of that sprue space for cool pieces like the caged snotling in the dwarf miner set in wasted on parts for these options that'll I'll never use. New kits are really losing their warhammer feel.

Sir_Glonojad
01-07-2014, 05:01
The number of entries in the AB is not that good a criterium. Imperial halberdiers and spearmen differ in exactly the same way as men-at-arms with weapon options even though the latter are hidden in a single selection.

Urgat
01-07-2014, 05:49
Dual kit: two names on the box.

gorenut
02-07-2014, 05:50
Some of the pricing on them is atrocious. I also don't like how some of them are planned because they come out looking like they made compromises in order to squeeze the most out of minimizing their own manufacturing costs (especially those with models that come out same-ish).

As much as I like bits.. bits should be something included standard and in abundance (like they used to) in every kit, at least as a show of appreciation for paying the premium. I remember when Battleforce/Battalion boxes came with extra terrain and sometimes even units (Tyranid and ripper swarms).