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Imperator64
25-06-2014, 01:16
Can you cast a spell that causes the target to cause fear on a unit that already causes fear?
Can you cast a spell that allows you to bring back the dead on a unit which has suffered no casualties?
Can you cast a spell allowing a unit to move as though it were the magic phase on a unit that cannot move.
Can you cast a spell that removes the effects of any spells affecting a unit on a unit which is not affected by any spell?

Imperator64
25-06-2014, 02:55
Sorry, could a mod move this to rules please?

guardsmen529
25-06-2014, 03:34
Interesting question. Could anyone give an example of when this would be beneficial? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Drachen_Jager
25-06-2014, 03:41
Interesting question. Could anyone give an example of when this would be beneficial? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Lore attributes. Say you're using lore of Shadow and you're about to get charged by a nasty unit of skullcrushers or something.

Sanai
25-06-2014, 03:42
Interesting question. Could anyone give an example of when this would be beneficial? I can't think of any off the top of my head.


Lore Attributes, e.g casting the Withering on a unit that is already Toughness 1 just to Smoke and Mirrors your wizard into a different unit, or casting Earthblood on a unit that already has regeneration to regain a wound on the wizard via Lifebloom.

russellmoo
25-06-2014, 05:57
The answer is yes. There are lots of times where spells are cast to no discernible in game effect while the player casting the spell gains the benefit of the lore attribute.

Most of the time this is inadvertent such as the purple sun that doesn't reach the desired target, or the mind razored witch elves that fail their charge. These spells in these instances were cast with a potential gain in mind but in terms of the game they actually would have had no effect.

A better question to ask and one that relates to tactics would have been, "When is it worth it to cast a spell merely to take advantage of the spell lore attribute?"

Lord Solar Plexus
25-06-2014, 06:47
The answer is no. ;) This is not covered by or mentioned in the rules, which is the very definition of a loop hole. Furthermore, inadvertent effects set no precedent for intended actions or effects.

ewar
25-06-2014, 08:13
The answer is no. ;) This is not covered by or mentioned in the rules, which is the very definition of a loop hole. Furthermore, inadvertent effects set no precedent for intended actions or effects.

Where in the rules does it say that? By your interpretation you wouldn't allow someone to cast bironas time warp on an elf unit.

I don't see any problem with it, add long as all the normal targeting restrictions are met, what is the problem?

SkawtheFalconer
25-06-2014, 09:41
Of course you can cast "pointless" spells. It's a perfectly viable tactic, if your opponent isn't wise enough to spot what you're up to.

Ultimate Life Form
25-06-2014, 09:47
Oh my god. I can already see where this is going. I can see people jump at the chance to dictate their opponents' magic phase by claiming spells to be pointless for some reason.

Can we please simply stick to the rules? Because the BRB lines out in every detail when and how to cast a spell. No need to make it more complicated than necessary. I need neither a permission from my opponent nor must there be any actual effect or intention.

MOMUS
25-06-2014, 09:51
Used to do it all the time with high magic with lizardmen so I can 'remember' some nice juicy death magic.

Tae
25-06-2014, 12:59
So long as the target is valid as per the magic rules, go ahead.

enyoss
25-06-2014, 13:39
I don't think there is a problem with this (I don't even think it's beardy to be honest).

It would probably be useful for trying to charge up the Wand of Whimsy Daemonic Gift as well.

ArtificerArmour
25-06-2014, 14:22
TK players do it all the time to heal constructs, so don't nerd them anymore!!!

Folomo
25-06-2014, 16:31
Is it really pointless if it's having an impact on the game, like healing a character or letting you change a spell?

PlasticSwap.Com
25-06-2014, 21:08
The game does not restrict it and as a LM and HE player i do it all the time. Casting any spell has inherent risks built in and your opponent has a chance to stop it.

Imperator64
26-06-2014, 01:02
Thanks guys it was the lore attribute for high elves magic that I was thinking of. I always thought this would be fine but have been wary of trying it (i got a reputation for being "that guy" when I first started playing at my current club so now I rarely stray outside of the general club interpretation of the rules unless I have an faq to back it up.) Tbh I probably wont bother trying it until we get a HE faq.

Knifeparty
26-06-2014, 02:43
This is pretty much the only reason HE players use High magic...

Evil Hypnotist
26-06-2014, 07:09
Not very knowledgable on High or Dark magic, but this sounds like a potential idea for the new Wood Elf lore attributes...

sandstorm
26-06-2014, 09:49
Casting Apotheosis on Phoenix guard that can't be healed and already cause fear to increase their ward save to a 3++ comes to mind.

Lord Solar Plexus
26-06-2014, 10:56
You're all right, I was wrong. ;)

What misled me was the way some of the arguments were phrased. For example, "Where in the rules does it say that [you cannot cast pointless spells]?": Of course it never says that anywhere - permissive system. It doesn't say you can't throw your handgun either. "The game does not restrict it" falls into the same category; the correct argument would be that the game allows it, ie. to cast spells. Lastly, "we always did that" isn't a good argument either!


Oh my god. I can already see where this is going. I can see people jump at the chance to dictate their opponents' magic phase by claiming spells to be pointless for some reason.

I'm very sorry that I was wrong in this instance. I've never "dictated" to my opponent what to cast and I never intended to do that in the future though, so you're seriously overreacting. This is definitively not going as you assume. ;)

Wesser
26-06-2014, 11:55
HE player are casting that Heal spell all the time to boost ward saves...though I guess there's also a fear component...

SpanielBear
26-06-2014, 12:02
Going slightly off topic, but is there not a rule that if you cast a spell or apply an item that gives a unit the 'fear' rule, and they already had it, it instead boosts the fear to 'terror'? I know the old Wood Elf book had a spell that did just that, but I didn't think it was an isolated case.

Josfer
26-06-2014, 12:15
It`s ďan isolated caseď. Doubling frenzy increases to two attacks on each spell I know off, but it`s mentioned at each spell and not in the core rules.

Chicago Slim
26-06-2014, 12:42
Going slightly off topic, but is there not a rule that if you cast a spell or apply an item that gives a unit the 'fear' rule, and they already had it, it instead boosts the fear to 'terror'? I know the old Wood Elf book had a spell that did just that, but I didn't think it was an isolated case.

There is no such rule, in general, though several things that grant Fear do what you've described, by their own descriptions.

ewar
26-06-2014, 13:23
It`s “an isolated case“. Doubling frenzy increases to two attacks on each spell I know off, but it`s mentioned at each spell and not in the core rules.

Which spells do this? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

If you have Frenzy, that's it, you can't get it again for double Frenzy. If one spell grants Frenzy and another grants +1A (e.g.Timewarp) then that does stack as they are different effects.

Josfer
26-06-2014, 14:04
Hysterical Frenzy - Lore of Slaanesh

And I thought about Death Frenzy from Lore of Ruin, but that actually gives +2A and if the unit already has frenzy it only gets +2A and doesn't stack. So it does what I described, but not in the way I thought about it.

mjungledog
01-07-2014, 20:05
I cast the poison attacks spell on my unengaged Nurgle Daemon Prince all the time to try and get the lore attribute off...

No one has cried shenanigans yet...

Captain Collius
02-07-2014, 12:50
I know the Nurgle regeneration spell does and I believe the lore of ruin poison spell does