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b4z
02-07-2014, 01:35
196172

Green Player charges unit into Flank Arc of Pink Player's unit.

Start of Combat Phase for Green Player.

Green Player says "Make Way!" with Hero from the Second Rank to the Front Rank.

Pink Player says "Challenge!" with Lord [purple].

Green Player says "Champion Accepts" [dark green].

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Green Player logic... all his Characters are now in Front Rank and cannot be moved out of Combat, so Champion cannot move to Front Rank to contact Lord [if it moves over to touch unit] and therefore both models stay in place and Challenge is fought without moving either Champion [dark green] or Lord [purple].

Pink Player logic... Champion must move back to the Front Rank, Lord must move right to get into Base to Base contact with Champion.

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Does Green Player have to move Champion back to the Front Rank and therefore Pink Player move Lord to contact it?

Does Green Player's Heroes/Lords being on Front Rank [and in base to base with enemy unit] have an impact on whether the Champion can/can't move back to the Front Rank [after the Make Way]?

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[B]Warhammer Rulebook, Page 102, Fighting A Challenge
"If a character accepts the challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger [...] If, for whatever reason, this is not possible, assume that the two models are in base contact (this might require a little gumption to work out, so it’s best to move the model if you can). These two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other – they cannot be attacked by any other model for that round of close combat."

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Bear in mind I deduced that "Make Way" is done BEFORE "Challenge!" because of the following statements below... "before Impact Hits" and "but after Impact Hits".


Warhammer Rulebook, Page 100, Make Way!
"At the start of the combat (before Impact Hits are resolved), if a character’s unit is in combat, but the character is not in base contact with the enemy, the controlling player can swap his position with another model that is in base contact. You can exchange him with rank-and-file model(s), including the command group, that are in base contact with the enemy."


Warhammer Rulebook, Page 102, Issuing A Challenge
"Challenges are issued at the start of the combat round, before any blows are struck (but after Impact Hits). Only one challenge can be issued per close combat – the side whose turn it is has the opportunity to issue a challenge first. If that side chooses not to, then the other side can issue a challenge."

Masque
02-07-2014, 10:11
I think all rules allowing/requiring you to move the challenger are absent from 8th Edition. If the challengee can't move into contact (which he can't in this example) they stay where they are and count as being in base to base. If the purple lord had been in base contact with the green unit then I think the champion would have to move in and displace a character.

furrie
02-07-2014, 10:33
With the quotes you provided I see nothing that prevents the champion to move back in the front rank, but I don't have my rulebook with me so I can't check If there is a rule somewhere that prevents a character to move out of base contact with an enemy.

Ps. its not a combat reform, so does rules don't come into play.

Wesser
02-07-2014, 12:31
Nope.

Challenges can only be fought between engaged models.

So first of all since the Pink Player did not Make Way into combat he's not even allowed to issue the challenge.


Lets assume he had been moved into a fighting rank. Don't have the rulebook with me, but unless the champion is in base contact I don't think he's even illegible to accept the challenge

Ramius4
02-07-2014, 13:00
So first of all since the Pink Player did not Make Way into combat he's not even allowed to issue the challenge.

This.

And I'm pretty sure that once the Champion moved to the second rank (and out of base contact), he was no longer eligible to accept a challenge anyways.

3eland
02-07-2014, 16:18
Page 102 of mini book under Accepting a Challenge -
[...] Note that a character does not have to be in base contact with an enemy to accept or issue a challenge, just part of a unit that is.

It then goes on under Fighting a Challenge to explain that if they are not B2B they can still fight.

If a character accepts the challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger [..] If, for whatever reason, this is not possible, assume that the two models are in base contact [...].

It does not say anything about having to be in the front rank to issue a challenge either, just

The player issuing the challenge nominates one of his characters or champion models to issue the challenge. If he does not have a suitable model in the fight, a challenge cannot be issued.

From reading the Close Combat section starting on page 46, the unit as a whole is "fighting" if it is in base contact with an enemy. And so, the "suitable model in the fight" is legal since the model in question (purple lord) is still in the fight.

I am not sure why people are saying it cannot be done, am I missing something?

Ramius4
02-07-2014, 16:38
I am not sure why people are saying it cannot be done, am I missing something?

For me it's just a case of not remembering the rules correctly. I've played since 4th and I often have 'edition confusion'.

In all previous editions, you had to be 'in a fighting rank' (i.e. in base contact) in order to issue or accept a challenge.

furrie
02-07-2014, 18:24
Seeing as make way doesn't state the character must remain in the same place after the move (not even with a time frame) and accepting a challenge doesn't say you can't move character, I would say pink is correct, not is preventing the lord or the champion from moving into base contact.

Blkc57
03-07-2014, 00:26
Nope.

Challenges can only be fought between engaged models.

So first of all since the Pink Player did not Make Way into combat he's not even allowed to issue the challenge.


Lets assume he had been moved into a fighting rank. Don't have the rulebook with me, but unless the champion is in base contact I don't think he's even illegible to accept the challenge

This is not true Wesser, the only thing that needs to be in base contact for the champion to issue or accept challenges is the UNIT he is located in. In the instance above the challenge would be fought with each model where they stand as the champion and character cannot move into base contact with each other (this is an entirely separate move by the way from the Make Way rule). The person who issues the challenge does not ever move. The only one who moves according to the rules is the person who accepts the challenge.

If the above Pink player truly wanted to cause the champion to move up to the front rank then what should have happened is this:

Green Player (whose turns it is and thus gets to announce first): "Hero makes way to the front!" *Hero moves up and champ is moved back into second rank*

Pink Player: "My Lord makes way to the flank!" *Lord is moved into base contact with Green unit on the flank to any position the pink player chooses)*

Green Player: "I issue no challenges, sir!"

Pink Player: "My Lord issues a challenge to your pitiful unit!"

Green Player: "My champion will accept!" *Champ is now moved into any position the Green player wishes but must be in base contact with the Pink Lord, thus some character in green's front rank must be moved into the second rank*

Ossirian
06-07-2014, 07:43
Page 102 of mini book under Accepting a Challenge -

It then goes on under Fighting a Challenge to explain that if they are not B2B they can still fight.


It does not say anything about having to be in the front rank to issue a challenge either, just


From reading the Close Combat section starting on page 46, the unit as a whole is "fighting" if it is in base contact with an enemy. And so, the "suitable model in the fight" is legal since the model in question (purple lord) is still in the fight.

I am not sure why people are saying it cannot be done, am I missing something?

This.
Champion can challenge.
Anyone who accepts moves to him, if that's not possible, nobody moves.
The Lord and the champion fight from where they are.
Which is lucky as The Lord didn't make way and otherwise wouldn't be able to fight.
If however one of the heroes challenged The Lord would have been required to move to base contact, ie side of the unit.
If The Lord had made way too before the champion challenged, The Lord would have been able to prevent one of the heroes attacking by blocking one of them using his superior base size. An opportunity missed.



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