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View Full Version : Has anyone tried the Daemon Summoning powers with a Non-Daemon army?



Proiteus
08-07-2014, 09:00
I recently had someone suggest some Summoned Daemon conversions for my themed guard army. Summoning some nice close quarter units would be good but with the double perils it is risky so I doubt it's suitable for competitive play.

So I'm interested to know if anyone has tried using the Daemon Summoning Psychic Discipline with an army that isn't 40k Daemons. If so how did it go and what units were summoned?

Gingerwerewolf
08-07-2014, 09:51
I tried it with a Chaos Space Marine Army and my opponent tried with Blood angels - Mephiston

Both our Psykers tried multiple times in the game, I killed my sorcerer doing it (Two turns of Perils) and he caused 2 wounds to Mephiston, but eventually got it off.

It is in no way overpowered. Its so damn dangerous to non daemons that Its not worth it IMO

A.T.
08-07-2014, 10:03
Eldar can mitigate the risk of perils by spending warp charges to ignore them, and generate dozens of warp charges each turn to throw at summoning.

So far though the only summoning list i've encountered was CSM with flying nurgle princes to act as the lead summoners.

Tayrod
08-07-2014, 10:09
We played a 500 point game in preperation for a 500 point border patrol tournament. My opponent played Orks, and was able to summon 300 points of deamons with a 45 point ork psyker...

Needless to say it had a major impact on our game, almost doubling his army.

He constantelty six-diced the spell and got it off every time. One time he was even able to avoid misscast by rolling 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Losing Command
08-07-2014, 10:28
How did that Ork Weirboy survive all those perils results ? And how did he have enough psykers for at least 6 dice every turn ? And even then he must have had some amazing luck to succesfully cast it every time, as even with 6 dice its only about 50% chance of succes.

I've tried summoning daemons with a Thousand Sons army a few times. It cost a lot of wounds, even more warp charge dice, and summoned one or two units during the game (after which the psyker died) that most of the time end up shot down immidiatly.
So non-daemon summoning daemons : possible yes, reliable not really, broken only if you have insane luck with dice.

Gingerwerewolf
08-07-2014, 10:32
How did that Ork Weirboy survive all those perils results ? And how did he have enough psykers for at least 6 dice every turn ? And even then he must have had some amazing luck to succesfully cast it every time, as even with 6 dice its only about 50% chance of succes.

I've tried summoning daemons with a Thousand Sons army a few times. It cost a lot of wounds, even more warp charge dice, and summoned one or two units during the game (after which the psyker died) that most of the time end up shot down immidiatly.
So non-daemon summoning daemons : possible yes, reliable not really, broken only if you have insane luck with dice.

This is exactly what I found

totgeboren
08-07-2014, 10:50
I tried it with my CSM vs Eldar, 1750 pts.

I found that the Familiar was really nice, since it allows you to use one dice less than normal and still have a 75% chance of success. So 5 dice for a WC3 power, reducing the chance of Perils substantially.
The first thing I summoned was squad of Horrors, who got to do the rest of the WC3 summonings. My Sorcerer got Sacrifice so he was just trying to sacrifice Cultists the rest of the game (only managed once because the Eldar player saved all dice for Denying that power.

Sufficient to say, my CSM got tabled by the end of turn 4. Malefic isn't all that unless you make a daemon army centred around summoning, and definitely not enough to raise CSM (one of the weakest codexes) to the same level as Eldar (probably the strongest codex).

Sure, I had some bad luck and the Eldar player rolled well, but Malefic is for Daemons. Also, something people often seem to forget is that most armies need to roll for 'one eye open' if they have daemons within 6", meaning summoning daemons could well cost you the game unless you keep them away from the rest of your army. Something surprisingly hard to do with non-daemons, as they have to deploy by deep strike within 12" of the caster, and non-daemons don't have any Icons to aid in the deep strike.

Teraks
08-07-2014, 10:57
I'm curious to try with my Eldar's. Anyone have some experience on it with them?

Tayrod
08-07-2014, 11:05
How did that Ork Weirboy survive all those perils results ? And how did he have enough psykers for at least 6 dice every turn ? And even then he must have had some amazing luck to succesfully cast it every time, as even with 6 dice its only about 50% chance of succes.

Maybe so. He got one Warp Dice for being level 1, and one warp dice for being inrange of atleast 12 boys, every turn. As far as I can remember he then rolled 4, 6, and 6 for "winds of magic", and 6 diced the spell successfully each phase, resulting in two miscasts (-2 wounds), but still a pretty small sacrifice for 300 points of demons

Tayrod
08-07-2014, 11:06
Has anyone calculated the odds of getting the summoning spells off with X dice?, I read it was about 31 % with 6 dices.

totgeboren
08-07-2014, 11:21
Maybe so. He got one Warp Dice for being level 1, and one warp dice for being inrange of atleast 12 boys, every turn. As far as I can remember he then rolled 4, 6, and 6 for "winds of magic", and 6 diced the spell successfully each phase, resulting in two miscasts (-2 wounds), but still a pretty small sacrifice for 300 points of demons

That is still being really really lucky. Suffering 2 wounds from two perils with a Weirdboy is kinda expected, because of their crappy Ld or 7, but that is still a dead Weirdboy in turn 2.
I mean, last game my lvl2 Weirdboy at most got 5 dice to play around with. I never rolled higher than 3 on the "winds of magic", so I was pretty happy that I took orky powers instead of daemonology. Had I used malefic I would probably at most managed to summon one squad and then died.

Still, if it's winning people are after, just doing one summoning on turn one and summon Horrors who can then do the rest of the summoning for you sort of eliminates the risk-vs-reward of Malefic. You get to summon but you don't need to worry about perils on any double (except for the first summoning). However, your psyker will be reduced to a simple battery after this (as you won't have any warp charge dice left for casting anything else than summonings), so essentially you have just traded your ~100 pts Psyker for a ~100 pts squad of daemons, though with a one turn delay and the risk of your daemons no showing up or showing up in the wrong place (deep strike mishap).

Might as well just ally in a squad of 11 Horrors and a lvl 3 Herald instead of including your sub-par-for-summoning psyker. That's less than 200 pts for 5 Master levels doing summonings and five rolls on Maelfic, giving you a substantial chance of getting Sacrifice and/or Possession.


Has anyone calculated the odds of getting the summoning spells off with X dice?, I read it was about 31 % with 6 dices.

Getting a WC1 power off with 1 dice is 50/50. As is getting a WC2 of with 3 dice (since on average if you roll two dice one should be 1-3 and one should be 4-6, so they chancel out and you are left with your third dice having a 50/50 of being 4+). The formula for having a 50% chance of getting the power off would be "Warp Charge required times two minus one". So WC3 would be 3*2-1=5.

The simplified math doesn't work for even numbers of dice (since it implies you would have a 75% chance of success if you roll one more die than what is required to reach 50%), but if you roll 6 dice I think you have 65.6% chance of getting a WC3 power of. Use 7 WC and you have a 77% chance of success, though you will automatically suffer a perils. Using only 4 dice to cast a WC3 power gives you a 31% chance of success.

Proiteus
08-07-2014, 11:41
Might as well just ally in a squad of 11 Horrors and a lvl 3 Herald instead of including your sub-par-for-summoning psyker. That's less than 200 pts for 5 Master levels doing summonings and five rolls on Maelfic, giving you a substantial chance of getting Sacrifice and/or Possession.

But that's the thing; Do Summoned Deamons follow the allies chart rules or do they act as just 'friendly' units?

totaltyke
08-07-2014, 11:56
I used the sanctic powers on my DA librarian. He killed himself turn 6 due to perils.If you're only throwing 2 or 3 die at a power, the risk is significantly reduced.

totgeboren
08-07-2014, 12:15
But that's the thing; Do Summoned Deamons follow the allies chart rules or do they act as just 'friendly' units?


The rules clearly state which codex your summoned units come from.

"One Eye Open: At the start of each of your Movement Phases, each unit within 6" of a Desperate Allies unit must roll a D6..."

And how do you determine if they are Desperate Allies? You look at the chart as see what faction they belong to. How do you know which faction they belong to? You look at their codex. And the rules for summoned Daemons say these are daemons from Codex: Chaos Daemons.

So the only faction in the game that does not have the One Eye Open rule against Daemons is CSM (and Daemons of course).