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Dark_Mage99
09-07-2014, 12:26
Do frenzied characters pass on their frenzy to the unit, ie. do they all get an extra attack, or am I making this rule up?

I swear they did, or at least used to, but on checking the rule book again it appears not...

Although the entire unit suffers the drawbacks of frenzy, it gets none of the benefits.

Mr_Rose
09-07-2014, 12:48
Although the entire unit suffers the drawbacks of frenzy, it gets none of the benefits.

That is indeed the case.

EricB
10-07-2014, 10:56
If he doesnt pass the frenzy test, i think u can just charge the character out if the unit if u want.

McBaine
13-07-2014, 20:30
Do frenzied characters pass on their frenzy to the unit, ie. do they all get an extra attack, or am I making this rule up?

I swear they did, or at least used to, but on checking the rule book again it appears not...

Frenzied characters never gave the unit extra attacks. Not in the last 3 Editions. There are magic items (i.e. Skavenbrew) that can give the whole unit frenzy and one or two special rules (Beatmen Doombull gives the unit frenzy IIRC), but as a rule, a frenzied character gives the unit he is in no benefit. The whole unit has to test for frenzy tho.

Blkc57
14-07-2014, 04:42
If he doesnt pass the frenzy test, i think u can just charge the character out if the unit if u want.

Actually no, if the frenzy test is failed the entire unit must declare a charge along with the character.

EricB
14-07-2014, 08:01
Thnx i didnt know that. I hoped it could

Josfer
14-07-2014, 08:50
Actually no, if the frenzy test is failed the entire unit must declare a charge along with the character.
I think this is debatable, as the rules say the unit has to declare a charge if able to. If you first declare a charge with the character, the unit can't and thus hasn't to. But that's the same debate as eye of the gods guys from WoC having to challenge. A DP doesn't have EOTG, can he challenge the enemy character if he and a WoC unit with a champion (who has EOTG) is in a multi combat with the enemy characters unit or does the champ have to?

theunwantedbeing
14-07-2014, 09:19
I think this is debatable, as the rules say the unit has to declare a charge if able to. If you first declare a charge with the character, the unit can't and thus hasn't to.
Yeah, that's not at all legal.
The unit has to declare a charge if able to, you can't declare a different charge in an attempt to prevent it as they were able to charge at the start of the phase and you didn't declare a charge with the unit.


But that's the same debate as eye of the gods guys from WoC having to challenge. A DP doesn't have EOTG, can he challenge the enemy character if he and a WoC unit with a champion (who has EOTG) is in a multi combat with the enemy characters unit or does the champ have to?
The champion has to challenge, so that stops the other characters who don't have EotG from challenging.

Dark_Mage99
14-07-2014, 09:20
I think this is debatable, as the rules say the unit has to declare a charge if able to. If you first declare a charge with the character, the unit can't and thus hasn't to. But that's the same debate as eye of the gods guys from WoC having to challenge. A DP doesn't have EOTG, can he challenge the enemy character if he and a WoC unit with a champion (who has EOTG) is in a multi combat with the enemy characters unit or does the champ have to?

I'd say that, with this, it's up to the controlling player - as both options are possible with both circumstances.

The DP can challenge, because you choose who to challenge with.

A lot of the time it will be bad for a line character to be forced out of the unit, so the unit may well change anyway.

bigbiggles
14-07-2014, 10:01
If a frenzied character is in a non frenzied unit, and the frenzied test is failed, he can charge out all on his own. Probably not a good idea though...

Josfer
14-07-2014, 10:54
Yeah, that's not at all legal.
The unit has to declare a charge if able to, you can't declare a different charge in an attempt to prevent it as they were able to charge at the start of the phase and you didn't declare a charge with the unit.
And you can obviously back that statement that it isn't legal with the corresponding rule, don't you?

theunwantedbeing
14-07-2014, 11:11
And you can obviously back that statement that it isn't legal with the corresponding rule, can't you?

Frenzy rules on Page 70.
If the unit could declare a charge, it has to.

Mr_Rose
14-07-2014, 11:49
A frenzied character can make a normal voluntary solo charge without testing to restrain themselves.
A frenzied character that tests to restrain and fails will take his accompanying unit with him because the whole unit is subject to the second part of the Frenzy rule.

Josfer
14-07-2014, 12:30
Frenzy rules on Page 70.
If the unit could declare a charge, it has to.
It can't because the character declared one.
Now show me the rule where it says the character can't declare one in the first place.

Mr_Rose
14-07-2014, 12:41
If a frenzied character is in a non frenzied unit, and the frenzied test is failed, he can charge out all on his own. Probably not a good idea though...

No he can't. Simply put, the entire unit is subject to Berserk Rage if one model is, so the entire unit must test to restrain and the entire unit must charge if the restraint test is failed.

Josfer
14-07-2014, 13:02
and the entire unit must charge if the restraint test is failed.
That's not what the rule says.

Henry_37
14-07-2014, 13:35
Pg70 of mini rulebook "Berserk Rage: If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed. If the Leadership test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against the nearest viable enemy"

Josfer
14-07-2014, 14:20
As said, there is nothing in the rule that prohibits the character from charging solo and thus prohibiting the unit to charge.

theunwantedbeing
14-07-2014, 14:51
As said, there is nothing in the rule that prohibits the character from charging solo and thus prohibiting the unit to charge.

You'll have to explain this as it makes no sense at all.

Josfer
14-07-2014, 20:21
During your charge phase, you pick a unit and declare a charge. You pick your character, declare a charge against any enemy (you don't have to pick the nearest one as you only have to test LD if you want to avoid the charge and only have to charge the nearest one if you fail the LD test) and then can't declare a charge with the unit as it is prohibited and don't have to take a LD test.
If you wish to avoid the charge of a frenzied unit, you can test for LD during any point of the charge phase when you are able to pick a new unit to charge, then roll for LD, if you pass you don't have to charge, if you fail, you have to charge the nearest enemy.

theunwantedbeing
14-07-2014, 20:41
During your charge phase, you pick a unit and declare a charge.
Yes, that's what the rules say.


You pick your character, declare a charge against any enemy
The character is part of the unit, you have to pick the unit before you can declare a charge with the character in the unit.
The unit must then declare a charge as per the frenzy rules.

Josfer
14-07-2014, 20:46
The character is part of the unit, you have to pick the unit before you can declare a charge with the character in the unit.
What? How? Why?
Either you can single the character out, then you can`t charge with the rnf guys or you can`t and then “character charges out of the unit“ is a charge you can declare.

You can`t say you pick a unit (rnf+char) to declare a charge and then charge with another unit (only char), that doesn`t make sense. Either it is the unit or it isn`t.

Henry_37
15-07-2014, 12:08
It is the unit.

The rules says that if a unit with 1 or more frenzied models in it can declare a charge the unit must pass a ld test to not charge.
You cannot separate the frenzied models from the unit in the charge phase UNLESS only the frenzied model could make the charge but the unit r&f could not (different M values for example)

furrie
15-07-2014, 12:35
It is the unit.

The rules says that if a unit with 1 or more frenzied models in it can declare a charge the unit must pass a ld test to not charge.
You cannot separate the frenzied models from the unit in the charge phase UNLESS only the frenzied model could make the charge but the unit r&f could not (different M values for example)
One thing in the case Henry_37 you don't have to declare a charge( or test if you can hold) as the unit can't make the charge and the rules say the unit.

Josfer
15-07-2014, 12:59
You cannot separate the frenzied models from the unit in the charge phase UNLESS only the frenzied model could make the charge but the unit r&f could not (different M values for example)

What? That doesn`t make sense. You are constantly switching your definition of “the unit“. The rules are crystal clear on that: you chose a unit, you declare a charge with that unit. Either the unit is (char+rnf) in both cases or in none. So if the unit is both as you stated, declaring a charge of the character into an enemy is a charge declaration for the unit and as such legal.

WhispersofBlood
15-07-2014, 15:05
It is the unit.

The rules says that if a unit with 1 or more frenzied models in it can declare a charge the unit must pass a ld test to not charge.
You cannot separate the frenzied models from the unit in the charge phase UNLESS only the frenzied model could make the charge but the unit r&f could not (different M values for example)

That isn't what the rules say, at best it is a terrible characterization of the rules.

The rules say in the charge sub-phase a unit this is able to charge must take a Ld test. If the test is fail the unit must declare a charge. The unit is both character and regiment not a loose amalgamation, either the unit can charge or it can't.

As to if you can block a unit from charging but charging the character out first, I ask when would you have the opportunity?

Because the unit(including the character) is subjected to Berserk Fury special rule you must consult it before taking any actions. If you can declare a charge? The unit can or cannot declare a charge. Now if the rules had said something a long the lines of "If the unit has not declared a charge." I could see the argument as there would be language indicating there is a moment to complete actions before the rule comes into effect. Without such language I don't see how you can assume you have control in a situation specifically written to remove control.

Blkc57
15-07-2014, 21:37
If you can can declare are charge?

Whispers, this part of your statement is making it hard for me to understand your argument, is there a way you can clarify the last paragraph. You don't need to repeat, but maybe include a small synopsis. The words read like you are arguing that a character cannot charge out of a unit that has failed a frenzy test, but your tone implies otherwise.

WhispersofBlood
16-07-2014, 00:48
No that's exactly what I'm saying.

Masque
16-07-2014, 07:37
If you can can declare are charge?

I usually feel I'm fairly decent and piecing together what someone meant to type, but in this case I'm lost. What did you actually mean to say here?

WhispersofBlood
16-07-2014, 19:44
I usually feel I'm fairly decent and piecing together what someone meant to type, but in this case I'm lost. What did you actually mean to say here?

I was merely a typo I've corrected it.

theunwantedbeing
16-07-2014, 20:05
I was merely a typo I've corrected it.

It still says can can which might confuse some people.


If you can can declare a charge?

Masque
17-07-2014, 05:08
If you can declare a charge?

This still isn't a sentence, but I think I figured it out. ;)

Josfer
17-07-2014, 07:34
The rules say in the charge sub-phase a unit this is able to charge must take a Ld test.
This is not true at all. It only has to make a LD test if it does not want to declare a charge.


As to if you can block a unit from charging but charging the character out first, I ask when would you have the opportunity?
When you chose the unit and declare a charge with it. Charging the character out is a charge that the unit as a whole declares, because as the rules state in the charge phase you pick a unit and declare a charge with that unit. You can't pick the character himself as a unit, because it's part of the bigger unit, so if you have a game with only two units, one of you with a character in it and one enemy in charge range, you can declare one of two charges with your unit:
-Charge the whole unit
-Charge only the character


Because the unit(including the character) is subjected to Berserk Fury special rule you must consult it before taking any actions. If you can declare a charge? The unit can or cannot declare a charge.
In your interpretation, what happens if you have two frenzy units in charge range? Both must simultaneously declare a charge?

WhispersofBlood
17-07-2014, 16:00
From the rulebook.

"If, during the Charge Sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed."

Don't confuse common convention with actual game play mechanics. As is the case if you already want to charge the rule doesn't matter anyway. But, no where does it state that you only test if you don't want to charge. Testing for Berserk Rage is a non-optional rule, technically you need to test even if you want to charge. And, please don't confuse two different frenzied regiments with a character in a regiment. First of all their are clear and explicit rules for declaring charges with multiple units, and Berserk Rage has no effect on the actual order you declare charges. It simply determines if you must declare a charge or not in the Charge sub-phase not what order. It is clear they are one unit until the character leaves the unit, Berserk Rage effects the unit as one.

The unit both Character and Regiment, which under page 99 for combined units are one unit except for the listed exceptions (none of which is declaring charges). On page 101 the first reference to the character and the regiment being separate units is the declaration and charge reaction where the unit stands and shoots against the character alone.

Josfer
17-07-2014, 21:51
But, no where does it state that you only test if you don't want to charge.
Why shouldn't it? The rules state what you have to do and not what you haven't to do.

It says "it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed". If you DON'T want to charge, you have to make a LD test. It says nothing about if you want to charge. Otherwise they probably have worded it "As soon as a unit with frenzy can declare a charge, make an LD, test if you fail, it has to declare a charge on the nearest enemy unit".

And on page 101 it's really clear. "A character can charge out of a unit, by declaring a charge in the relevant phase - in which case, he will move and his unit will stay still...". So THE UNIT (as its his unit) declares a charge and then HE will move and HIS UNIT won't. After the declaration of charge, the stand and shoot is stating explicitly that shots are fired "as if he was a seperate target".

WhispersofBlood
17-07-2014, 22:26
Its a simple flow chart.

If unit can declare a charge;
Yes, take test
No, don't take test

You keep adding language that isn't there or needed, there doesn't need to be extra text about if you want to charge because its a simple rule that tells you exactly how to operate in the case of a unit with the Frenzy special rule. "If, during the Charge Sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed." That is the entirety of the rule concerning the declaration of a charge. Follow what it says its a simple binary expression.

Your argument would have to include some sort of text showing that the test is optional. The rule doesn't require timing because you can declare charges in any order you want. You seem to be unnecessarily associating the test with the actual act of declaring the charge. Failing a test only means that the unit (as a whole) must declare a charge, not when it might do it.

Its convenient to test when declaring or when you have finished declaring(in the case of not charging) but again normal convention does not always equal word of rule. If this was Warma/hordes where you activate units I could see the argument, but the WHFB is set and everything is "active". By RAW you must test if not when you are able to charge, so long as you declare a charge in the sub-phase at some point then you are fine. Until the test is passed you don't have an opportunity to declare a charge seperately and use the rules on pg 101.

Now there are situations like a when a friendly unit in the way panics out of the way, or a unit fleeing as a charge reaction runs into LoS of a frenzied unit where the need to test could change. In these situations something such as a character charging out of the unit would prevent the unit from being able to declare a charge. But the rule allows for this instance, in its simplicity.

If you can provide an explanation for your point of view that doesn't add extra language I would like to see it.

Josfer
18-07-2014, 08:00
No, the simple flow chart is:

Does the unit not want to charge:
Yes, take the test
No, don't take the test

There is NOTHING in the rules, that says you have to take a test if you want to make a charge.


Your argument would have to include some sort of text showing that the test is optional.
The test isn't optional if you don't want to make a charge. And if you want to make a charge it isn't optional too, you don't make one period. You have to do X unless you do Y doesn't require Y to be done if you want to do X. It only requires it if you DON'T.


Failing a test only means that the unit (as a whole) must declare a charge, not when it might do it.
Sorry, then I misunderstood "Because the unit(including the character) is subjected to Berserk Fury special rule you must consult it before taking any actions. If you can declare a charge? The unit can or cannot declare a charge." This (in quotation mark) was meant to when you try to do something with the unit, right? Not at the beginning of the charge phase "before taking any actions".

The "full" flowchart looks as follows (if there is no "goto" at the end of a line, just proceed to the next one):

Start of the charge phase
1 Start of declaration subphase
2 Do you want to declare a charge with a unit? Yes goto 3, No goto 20
3 Pick an own unit (A)
4 Does the unit contain a character? Yes goto 5, No goto 5a
5 Pick a charge option: Unit charges as a whole goto 6, Character (X) charges out of his unit goto 13
6 Pick enemy unit (or multiple if not otherwise possible) (B)
6a Declare "Unit A charges unit B as a whole"
7 Enemy unit declares charge reaction
8 Does the enemy flee? Yes goto 9, No "charge declared" goto 11
9 Not redirected before and you want to redirect? Yes goto 10, No "charge declared" goto 2
10 Make LD Test. Success goto 6, Fail "charge declared" goto 2
11 Does the enemy make a Stand and shoot? Yes goto 12, No (only "Hold left") goto 2
12 stand and shoot is resolved against full unit, goto 2
13 same as 6
13a Declare "Unit A charges unit B with X"
14 same as 7
15 same as 8 but goto 16 and 18
16 same as 9 but goto 17 and 2
17 same as 10 but goto 13 and 2
18 same as 12 but goto 19 and 2
19 Stand and shoot is resolved against character as if character seperate unit, goto 2
20 Do you have a unit with a model with frenzy that could declare a charge and did not test for berserker rage? Yes goto 21, no goto 39
21 Pick a unit with frenzy that could declare a charge
22 LD Test. Success "tested for berserker rage" goto 20, Fail goto 23
23 same as 4 but goto 24 and 25
24 same as 5 but goto 25 and 32
25 pick nearest enemy (including others if not otherwise possible)
26 same as 7
27 same as 8 but goto 28 and 30
28 Is the chosen enemy still the nearest enemy or having redirected before? Yes "charge declared" goto 20, No goto 29
29 same as 10 but goto 25 and 20
30 same as 11 but goto 31 and 20
31 same as 12
32 same as 25
33 same as 26
34 same as 27 but goto 35 and 37
35 same as 28 but goto 20 and 36
36 same as 29 but goto 32 and 20
37 same as 30 but goto 38 and 20
38 same as 19 but goto 20
39 Declaration subphase ends, now pick units to roll for charges etc.

Blkc57
18-07-2014, 09:43
I love you guys, but honestly that chart is kinda ridiculous. If the mission is to confuse people then I think both of you win. ;)

May I ask a question Joster, and its entirely innocent in order to figure out exactly where you are all coming from: Are you charging a character out of a unit at the nearest target after it has failed a frenzy test or before you took the test?

Josfer
18-07-2014, 10:33
Before the test it can charge whatever it wants, after the test it has to charge the nearest unit.

and there's no "t" in my name, it's an "f" as in flying.

theunwantedbeing
18-07-2014, 10:40
Before the test it can charge whatever it wants, after the test it has to charge the nearest unit.

I like how you didn't actually answer the question he asked.

@Blkc57
- he's charging the character out of the unit before taking the frenzy test for the unit
because apparently it's still classed as the unit charging if a character charges out of that unit so he doesn't have to test after.
Also the unit is not then allowed to charge.

He's ignoring the bit in the rules where it says if the unit could charge during the phase, then it has to unless it passes a leadership test.

@Josfer
Feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.

Josfer
18-07-2014, 11:02
I like how you didn't actually answer the question he asked.
Well it's hard to answer a "are you doing this or that" question if you are doing nothing at all.


- he's charging the character out of the unit before taking the frenzy test for the unit
In which situation?
There are two things you can do to not have to charge with the RnF models:
-declare a character charge against any enemy before having to test
-declare a character charge against the nearest enemy after trying not to charge (with a LD test) and having failed the test

So the logically correct answer to his question would've been "yes"...which I doubt would've brought him more insight.


He's ignoring the bit in the rules where it says if the unit could charge during the phase, then it has to unless it passes a leadership test.
No I'm not. It charges unless it passes a leadership test. If it didn't declare a charge, it has passed a leadership test, given it could charge in the first place.

Blkc57
18-07-2014, 12:07
-declare a character charge against the nearest enemy after trying not to charge (with a LD test) and having failed the test


Ok, I'm not being hostile Josfer. Its just that your argument wasn't making sense to me. If I thought you were right I would have agreed with you, if I thought you were wrong I would have made a counter argument. Now in the case I have quoted, I believe you are wrong. The words "the Frenzied unit must declare a charge" includes both the RnF and the Character, since as per page 99 they are one Combined Unit, thus all have failed and must now declare a charge to the nearest unit. The character at this point can not leave the unit, the reason being is that in order for the character to leave the rest of the unit must remain still during this part of the subphase as written on page 101, but by the rules for Frenzy the unit cannot remain still. I can see what you are attempting to do, which is manipulate the RAW to say "well now that the character has charged the unit must remain still", but my point is it can just as easily be read "the unit must declare a charge so now the character cannot leave". And to just add it does come off as an unsportsmanlike thing to do during a game to even try and manipulate the Frenzy rule in such a blatant manner as to prevent a bad effect.

Josfer
18-07-2014, 13:41
No, the unit must declare a charge and "a character that is part of this unit charges enemy X" is a charge that is declared by the unit, so it fullfills the frenzy requirements. Look at page 101, the character is still part of the unit and thus the unit has declared a charge.

furrie
18-07-2014, 14:14
No, the unit must declare a charge and "a character that is part of this unit charges enemy X" is a charge that is declared by the unit, so it fullfills the frenzy requirements. Look at page 101, the character is still part of the unit and thus the unit has declared a charge.

But the rule state the unit must declare a charge, not a part of the unit.

WhispersofBlood
18-07-2014, 16:12
lol declaration sub-phase. Dude there is no declaration sub-phase, only the charge sub-phase where all charge mechanics take place. You keep trying to create a timing issue so you can sneak in this cheat, when there isn't one. The unit is always capable or incapable of declaring charge since there is no activation. This isn't Shrodinger's Cat, just because you haven't looked over there doesn't mean the unit is in some sub-state. All the phases operate in a constant state of now, it is why things like panic are immediate.

This is why by letter of the rule, and tactical advantage you should test for all frenzied units capable of declaring a charge before declaring any others so as to make the best decisions. You don't have to declare the charge immediately as the Berserk Charge rule doesn't imply that, it only says you must declare a charge in the Charge sub-phase.

Josfer
18-07-2014, 16:42
But the rule state the unit must declare a charge, not a part of the unit.
Yes, the whole unit declares "the character charges enemy X" as the character is still part of the unit when the charge is declared and even when a stand and shoot takes place (although he is treated AS IF not). Parts of units CAN'T declare a charge, only units can. See my quote BRB p. 16 later.


Dude there is no declaration sub-phase, only the charge sub-phase where all charge mechanics take place.
It's not named that, but you can only roll for movement once all declarations have been done. BRB p. 18 "With all the charge reactions declared and resolved, it's time to see wether or not the charges were successfull!"


The unit is always capable or incapable of declaring charge since there is no activation.
Sure there is. BRB p. 16 "The player picks one of his units and announces which enemy unit it will charge". Once you pick one unit, you first have to resolve that charge before you can pick another one.


This is why by letter of the rule, and tactical advantage you should test for all frenzied units capable of declaring a charge before declaring any others so as to make the best decisions. You don't have to declare the charge immediately as the Berserk Charge rule doesn't imply that, it only says you must declare a charge in the Charge sub-phase.
You could do that, but every frenzied unit that fails the test then has to charge the nearest enemy instead of any enemy if you just declare the charge in the first place. So it depends wether or not you want to charge anyways and if you want to charge the nearest enemy or another.


This isn't Shrodinger's Cat, just because you haven't looked over there doesn't mean the unit is in some sub-state.
No one claims that. The unit is in frenzy at the start and once you don't want it to charge (or just want to make the LD test to make sure), you make an LD test as is said by the rule.

WhispersofBlood
18-07-2014, 17:01
Again there is no language saying the test is conditional. Even if you want to charge you need to pass the test to charge anything but the nearest viable target.

Josfer
18-07-2014, 18:55
Even if you want to charge you need to pass the test to charge anything but the nearest viable target.
There is no language saying that.

WhispersofBlood
18-07-2014, 21:02
There is no language saying that.

For your stance to be correct there would have to be an "Unless this unit has already declared a charge" clause which there isn't.

theunwantedbeing
18-07-2014, 21:35
Again there is no language saying the test is conditional. Even if you want to charge you need to pass the test to charge anything but the nearest viable target.

You're getting mixed up with older rules, hearsay and just plain made up gibberish on this thread.

Page 70 of the rulebook. Under the rules for Frenzy

If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that contains one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge,
then it must do unless a Leadership test is passed. If the Leadership test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare
a charge on the nearest viable enemy.

If your unit wants to charge, that's fine and there is no test.
If your unit doesn't want to charge (which includes a character charging out of the unit, as the unit then has to stay put and not charge) then you take the test.
If you pass, you don't have to charge (and a character can then charge out of the unit if they want to).
If you fail, you have to charge the nearest viable enemy.

TKerrygan
19-07-2014, 03:08
You're getting mixed up with older rules, hearsay and just plain made up gibberish on this thread.

Page 70 of the rulebook. Under the rules for Frenzy

If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that contains one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge,
then it must do unless a Leadership test is passed. If the Leadership test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare
a charge on the nearest viable enemy.

If your unit wants to charge, that's fine and there is no test.
If your unit doesn't want to charge (which includes a character charging out of the unit, as the unit then has to stay put and not charge) then you take the test.
If you pass, you don't have to charge (and a character can then charge out of the unit if they want to).
If you fail, you have to charge the nearest viable enemy.

this.

too short, more letters.

Masque
19-07-2014, 05:47
This thread has made me reinterpret how Frenzy works (whether or not the unit contains any characters). I'm generally of the opinion that if the rules tell you to do a thing it means do it now, immediately, or as soon as possible, not simply whenever you feel like it. If you have any units that are within charge range at the start of the Charge subphase and one or more of them contains a Frenzied model, I believe you need to select one of those Frenzied units and test. If you fail, you must immediately declare a charge against the closest enemy with that unit. Then repeat the process. Once all Frenzied units have passed the test or failed and declared a charge, then you may declare other charges.

As far as whether or not you can just have a character charge out of the unit to prevent the unit from charging once you have failed the test, I believe that is not allowed. The rules for characters charging out of units refers to the character, not the unit, declaring the charge.

Josfer
20-07-2014, 15:12
For your stance to be correct there would have to be an "Unless this unit has already declared a charge" clause which there isn't.Not it hasn't. The word "unless" totally suffices. Do "this" unless "that" -> "that" is totally to be ignored if you do "this". Normal usage of the word. With your meaning of "unless" adding the sentence you have in quotation marks means you have to declare a charge anyways.

@theunwantedbeing: I agree.


The rules for characters charging out of units refers to the character, not the unit, declaring the charge.
Can you back this up with rules? Because BRB p. 16 says you pick a unit and declare a charge with it and BRB p. 101 describes the character as being still part of his unit and (for stand and shoot charge reaction) only being treated AS IF he wasn't.

Masque
20-07-2014, 22:25
Can you back this up with rules? Because BRB p. 16 says you pick a unit and declare a charge with it and BRB p. 101 describes the character as being still part of his unit and (for stand and shoot charge reaction) only being treated AS IF he wasn't.

Page 101 says "A character can charge out of a unit, by declaring a charge in the relevant phase..." The subject of that sentence is "character". Thus, it is the character "declaring a charge" as far as the rules are concerned.

Josfer
21-07-2014, 10:34
Page 101 says "A character can charge out of a unit, by declaring a charge in the relevant phase..." The subject of that sentence is "character". Thus, it is the character "declaring a charge" as far as the rules are concerned.
So in your definition, the character inside the unit is a unit?

Blkc57
22-07-2014, 09:51
Yes, the whole unit declares "the character charges enemy X" as the character is still part of the unit when the charge is declared and even when a stand and shoot takes place (although he is treated AS IF not). Parts of units CAN'T declare a charge, only units can.

AHHH! Now the scales have fallen from my eyes and I see where you are coming from Josfer! I'm not sure I can agree though, as you pointed out if the entire unit is considered having declared a charge when the character does, why does GW then have the stand and shoot reaction target not the unit but the character? Also if the unit has declared a charge why is it free to move during the remaining movement phase? Why would GW need to specify in the rules on page 101 that the unit could not further declare charges if it already declared a charge? I just don't see the entire unit as having declared a charge. But I do see what you are pointing out, and it is an intriguing way to look at the issue.

hardyworld
22-07-2014, 20:02
I entirely understand your point, Josfer. However using your interpretation doesn't 'appear' correct/consistent in some scenarios. Given a Frenzied unit (say Witch Elves) joined by a character (could be a Frenzied character, say Death Hag, or non-Frenzied, say a Master), would you say that the unit does not need to take a test for Frenzy if the Master charged out of the unit? Given a non-Frenzied unit (say Corsairs) joined by a character with Frenzy (say Death Hag) and a non-Frenzied character (say Master), would you say that a unit does not need to take a test for Frenzy if the Master charged out of the unit? If you say yes to both scenarios, that seems like some workaround from the spirit of the Frenzy rules since the Frenzied models are not required to charge (or even required to take a leadership test to restrain from charging). Such an interpretation almost eliminates the downsides of Frenzy (or Witch Brew/Fury of Khaine abilities that are supposed to increase the Movement phase downsides to Frenzy) through a 'gamey' loophole.

I really think this is a best interpretation since it is consistent in ALL Frenzy unit/character combinations (including the original question) and better fits the spirit of the rules:



Page 70 of the rulebook. Under the rules for Frenzy

If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that contains one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge,
then it must do unless a Leadership test is passed. If the Leadership test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare
a charge on the nearest viable enemy.

If your unit wants to charge, that's fine and there is no test.
If your unit doesn't want to charge (which includes a character charging out of the unit, as the unit then has to stay put and not charge) then you take the test.
If you pass, you don't have to charge (and a character can then charge out of the unit if they want to).
If you fail, you have to charge the nearest viable enemy.

Josfer
22-07-2014, 21:28
why does GW then have the stand and shoot reaction target not the unit but the character?
I don't know the reasons why GW does this, but it says so explicitly in the rules on p. 101: "...the shots are fired at the character as if he was a separate target"


Also if the unit has declared a charge why is it free to move during the remaining movement phase? Why would GW need to specify in the rules on page 101 that the unit could not further declare charges if it already declared a charge?
Clarification. Seen often in the book, like the last sentence on p. 100 "In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected." Why write the part in the brackets? Everyone is obviously everyone and the combined unit is even mentioned again.


I just don't see the entire unit as having declared a charge.
Let me give you another argument:
P. 99 BRB starts with "COMBINED UNITS" as tier 3 caption. Tier 1 is (written huge) "CHARACTERS" on p. 96, Tier 2 is (underlined) "CHARACTERS AND UNITS" on p.97, then comes "COMBINED UNITS" written bigger than anything else on pp. 97-99 which is mostly Tier 4 and Tier 5 is not even all caps like "When Footprints Collide". "Combined Units" now states "Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit (including any other characters that have joined that unit) are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed here." Then follow Tier 4 captions "MOVEMENT", "SHOOTING", "CLOSE COMBAT ATTACKS", "MAKE WAY!", "LEADERSHIP TESTS" and "SPECIAL RULES". After that, "LEAVING A UNIT" is a Tier 3 caption again and thus not part of "the exceptions listed here".

And another one on p.16 BRB:
"In this sub-phase you'll choose one of your units and declare the charge you want it to make."
Why are they writing it like this and not only "and who it will charge"? It's worded as if you had options to chose from besides the target. That's more a hint than a proof, but the picture is quite consistent.


Given a Frenzied unit (say Witch Elves) joined by a character (could be a Frenzied character, say Death Hag, or non-Frenzied, say a Master), would you say that the unit does not need to take a test for Frenzy if the Master charged out of the unit?
Yes.


Given a non-Frenzied unit (say Corsairs) joined by a character with Frenzy (say Death Hag) and a non-Frenzied character (say Master), would you say that a unit does not need to take a test for Frenzy if the Master charged out of the unit?
Yes.


If you say yes to both scenarios, that seems like some workaround from the spirit of the Frenzy rules since the Frenzied models are not required to charge (or even required to take a leadership test to restrain from charging). Such an interpretation almost eliminates the downsides of Frenzy (or Witch Brew/Fury of Khaine abilities that are supposed to increase the Movement phase downsides to Frenzy) through a 'gamey' loophole.
SOMEONE has to charge. And you have to overrun. Which is ruleswise totally fine, but not as heavy of a burden as you might imagine. So we have multiple clearly worded parts in the rules, some less clearly worded parts in the rules, but overall nothing that speaks clearly against it and the remaining counter arguments are "but then frenzy is better as I play it now" and "but then a frenzied character without the frenzy rule can make a charge for frenzied characters/RnF with frenzy". The former isn't really a problem IMHO and the latter is just part of the rules. Why can the (not frenzy) RnF models not charge after a (not frenzy) character has charged out of it anyways (without any other characters around)?

Masque
25-07-2014, 03:18
So in your definition, the character inside the unit is a unit?

I wouldn't say that. I would say you need to count the character as a unit for the purposes of executing the charge, but not for any others.

Josfer
25-07-2014, 09:50
I wouldn't say that. I would say you need to count the character as a unit for the purposes of executing the charge, but not for any others.
And you don't say this should be reflected in the rules in ANY way? The rules are quite clear what is and what isn't a unit.

Masque
25-07-2014, 10:09
And you don't say this should be reflected in the rules in ANY way? The rules are quite clear what is and what isn't a unit.

If you don't count the character as a unit for the purposes of the charge I think you'll find you run into a lot of problems. Here's just one example: According to page 99, combined units move at the speed of the slowest model. Page 19 says that charge range is 2D6 + the unit's movement. If a mounted character joins an infantry unit, can he only charge as far as the infantry could have? Do you think that is intentional?

Josfer
25-07-2014, 10:37
If a mounted character joins an infantry unit, can he only charge as far as the infantry could have?
He uses the lowest M value in the unit (so 2 if he is mounted on a dics of tzeentch in a unit of chaos warriors).


Do you think that is intentional?
I don't know. Maybe they thought about it and decided that a clear and more simple rule is better than a more realistic but more complex one. Maybe they thought a mounted character will only rarely join infantry units and thus blowing up the rules more is unecessary. Maybe this wasn't intended. Maybe they didn't think about it at all (whatever their decision might have been).
I think it's not realistical, but on the other hand the RnF guys not being able to charge after a character has charged out of it isn't realistical too. On the other hand while we always see the models standing around, in reality this would be a way more fluent thing and everything is in motion and a riding character in an equally fast unit or alone will probably ride a high speed most of the time, while someone who accompanies foot soldiers might have to accelerate first.

And to fix this case you wouldn't have to make the character his own unit, but add a line to the exception that only "he will move and his unit stays still" (brb p. 101) "he will move, using his or his mounts movement characteristic, and his unit stays still".

Masque
25-07-2014, 11:25
OK, still not counting the character as a separate unit, if the charge is failed, what happens? The rules for failed charges (page 19) say the unit (not just the charging character) moves the distance of the higher die. Do you, or anyone else, play that way?

Josfer
25-07-2014, 14:33
The "leaving unit" rules say that he moves and his unit stands still. This is not limited to a successfull charge, so works in a failed charge too.