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GabrielSantar229
09-07-2014, 22:13
So I'm new to empire and in my gaming group we're having an empire centric campaign. We're starting out at 1000 points and building up from their. So far I've got1 captain of the empire with great weapon. Gonna be used as an elector count, same stat line as a gemerall of the empire but allowed to take 150 points of magic items.50 halberdiers10 crossbowmen10 knights of the empire1 great cannonSo that's what I'v got. What would you recomend I get to add to this list and what gear qhoukd I take on my units? I'm planning on gettibg some greatswords soon, what else should I get? The elctor count was compulsory so I was thinking a warrior priest next? Mostly I'll be fighting VC, Orcs&Goblins and other empire with maybe some WoC.Thanks in advance for any advice

Ben81
09-07-2014, 23:23
I'd suggest some Demigryphs as there our most powerful unit and great at decimating low strength infantry. You should also consider some chaff, maybe archers, and a wizard of some kind I think. I suppose it all depends on how many points you have spare though?

EvanM
10-07-2014, 02:07
10 Archers, 5 pistoliers are really really helpful against anyone who doesnt have BS shooting, Warrior priest is a must! I would try to see if you can "upgrade" your knights to reiksguard (stubborn knights is too good) or just ICK. Demigryphs can be very good and only require under 200pts for a unit of 3.

A mounted Warrior priest makes the knights awesome on the charge. A lvl 4 wizard is definitley nice at 1500 pts or more.

okay ramble ramble.... heres what i would do: add 2x 20-25 man detachments to the halbs of either swords or halberdiers, then get 10 archers, add a warrior priest (foot or mounted), and a wizard at lvl 2 or lvl4.

With your elector count, start off modest with his items but because of the extra limit I would kit him with a Runefang (fluff, but also just fricken awesome) a 4++ ward and the potion of speed (really helps in challenges where you wanna kill the other guy first).

A BSB would also be good, we dont want your guys running!

other than that it sounds like you have a very solid army to build on.

Bro Castiel
10-07-2014, 03:20
Welcome to The Empire GabrielSantar229!

I think that Archers get overlooked a bit but their worth at misdirection or screening is great. They are cheap to boot.

Id also like to echo the comments about Warrior Priests. Amazing influence on their chosen bunker unit.

Good luck and enjoy the Empire!

Cas

yabbadabba
10-07-2014, 05:53
Just remember your detachment rules are generally only useful on the defensive.

GabrielSantar229
10-07-2014, 12:44
So how's this for a 2000 point list? could it work?
Lords
elector count
full plate armour, pistol,runefang,talisman of preservation, potion of speed
battle wizard lord
lvl 4, earthing rod
Heroes
Warrior priest
heavy armour, great weapon
BSB
full plate, pistol
Core
50 halberdiers
full command
detachement 20 swordsmen
full command
detachement 25 swordsmen
full command
10 crossbowmen
marksman
10 archers x2
10 inner circle knights
full command
special
great cannon

Lord Solar Plexus
10-07-2014, 15:11
Your "Elector Count" (I assume you mean a GotE) is underprotected. Give him the enchanted shield. If you mean a Templar Grand Master, he's fine.

Most people would probably take a dispel scroll but the rod is fine and you should always try things out yourself.

The Warrior Priest isn't a good fighter, so a GW is wasted on him, cheap as it may be. Better give him a shield or some other means of protection. You want his prayers and hatred for as long as possible, not half a kill each round (assuming he's not dead when he gets around to strike). Same for the BSB - this is a very, very important model. Shield, Dragonhelm, that re-roll AS item or a ward would be nice.

Detachments need a lot of experience. Two detachments are overkill. You can often shield ("blade") one against the opponent but never two. I'd either combine them into one unit or drop one. Detachments can also not have any command I gather.

The marksman is a waste of points. Better get another standard.

Archers are only chaff. They're there to divert, distract and die (or flee). In this light, it's better to use units of 5. Run them at the scariest enemy unit and delay it or angle them or bait and flee, so it either doesn't come into play, or too late, or you can flank it.

It's not a very killy or overly mobile list but it can certainly work.

Oboc
14-07-2014, 21:48
I have always used a celestial hurricanum to great success to buff infantry blocks. I would also consider giving the priest the armor of meteoric iron, and a cheap wissan beast wizard for good measure. With this support, my infantry core wins me most games

Wesser
15-07-2014, 08:09
The big thing to remember about Empire is that it is a Arms, Legs & Crutches kind of army


Legs: Depending on whether you go shooting-heavy, combat heavy or mix thereof these will be the mainstay

These are State Troops (though primarily Halberdiers), Knights, Helblasters & Greatswords


Crutches: These are the units that are practically necessary in one combination or another for the "legs" to have any sort of offensive outout. Without it the "legs" are at best overpriced tarpits.

These are Battle Standards, Engineers, Hurricanums, Wizards, War Altars & Priests/Lectors


Arms: Units that gain few if any real benefits from crutches and thus can function on their own. They are potent, but ultimately too specialized to be regular game winners:

These are: Cannons, Demigryphs, Flagellants, Outriders, Steam Tanks


Now this a bit rigid and to some extent it could be said to apply for any army (Tomb Kings needing magic and My Will be Done for instance), but I find it useful as short descriptions of the Empire army.

So.


1. Anything not an arm, leg or a crutch is an indulgence unless you got a very specific plan for said unit. Units such as Pistoliers, Combat Characters including Griffon Lords (though Bloodroar can be nasty), Hellstorms and Handgunners/Crossbowmen are very unlikely to do significant damage or otherwise making back their points because the Crutches doesn't support characters and Shooting all that well.

Take them if you got a plan, but be aware that they won't be reliable form any sort of plan
Take them if you like them as concept or models. If nothing else you'll have karma on your side

2. Legs need Crutches

A unit of 50 Halberdiers is not really a threat. The inclusion of a Warrior Priest (if you can keep him alive) will turn the unit from STR4 (Low Quality) infantry into an actual combat block.

3. Focus on what's important

It's easy to get carried away buying supporting heroes, detachments, an extra buffwagon and so on. It all every quickly gets expensive though. Pick some Arms & Legs units and consider what you need them to achieve, and then pick the crutches that support those objectives and your general battle plan. And then leave it at that.

4. Don't get your crutches whacked

The easiest way to neuter Empire is to kill it's crutches. Kill the BsB and the army will be much too LD7/8 for it's own good. Empire have relatively low Initiative and clever opponents may seek to kill of any accompanying Warrior Priests before your troops can strike as killing him will rob you of both his LD, Hatred and any buff spell he can bring to the table. Armour of Meteoric Iron and Van Hortsmann's Speculum comes heavily recommended, as does placing him in his unit where as few attacks as possible can be directed at him. Hurricanums and War Altars are also fantastic war machine targets.

Always protect your crutches: If war machines take out your Hurricanum and an Enemy Character kill your WP you don't have combat units. You have Low LD tarpits.

5. Arms have short reach

Demigryphs are considered the cheesy and they sure are good. Great for tarpitting with their strong save and able to do a hefty bit of damage for not too many points. However they won't break Steadfast, a unit of 4 takes up about as much space as an infantry horde and their damage potential is seriously curtailed after the first 3-4 models. They are superb support troops, but they cannot handle serious opposition on their own

Cannons. Great for smashing big stuff and the occasional snipe. It's potent, but excepting Ridden Monsters it's for killing support units

Flagellants: Awesome against armies with INI2 and low shooting, and terrible against INI4+ armies and good shooting.

Steam Tank: A great tarpit which is vulnerable to being tarpitted itself.


Arms are potent units that can operate on their own, but they are pretty specialized. Flaggies are hit or miss and Steam Tanks and cannons are fairly specialized support. While they can be game winners now and again you cant rely on them rely on them to do this consistently (although certain spam builds exist these are pretty specialized too).

6. Combined Might

Empire can't do catch'em all deathstars. While the Legs & Crutches allows you to make decent combat units they will remain limited as to what you can handle.

Whatever you do to support your halberdiers for instance they'll be hacked to red mist by Witch Elves or Phoenix Guard, so leave such opponents for your knights

Vice Versa your Knights will be hopelessly tarpitted by Clanrats, slaughtered by Executioners and tarpitted AND slaughtered by White Lions. Leave those for your State Troops.


As a general rule don't expect your combat units to defeat your opponents'. Soften them up with shooting, pick the right matchups, have detachments and support units ready for flank charges, and make sure your crutches are in range to support (but safely out of risk).

Now your unit can try fighting it out. Not before



Trying to be basic and putting it all into boxes, so this is easy to take apart, but maybe it helps... oh and also my idiosyncrasies slips in here and there :)

yabbadabba
15-07-2014, 09:53
Actually about combat characters. If you are planning any sort of defensive strategies don't be so quick to dismiss the combination of hold the line and battle standard.

Wesser
15-07-2014, 10:24
Actually about combat characters. If you are planning any sort of defensive strategies don't be so quick to dismiss the combination of hold the line and battle standard.

Well the BsB (who's already distressingly close to being mandatory) comes with that standard.

As for further Hold the Line characters: Well like I said: If you have specific plan for them that's fine, but generally I find it more expensive than it's worth. You can of course add a Captain to a Halberdier unit to stiffen them a little bit, but it cost you 12+ Halberdiers you cold bring instead. It's not necessarily a bad idea, but Empire captains is a choice that require justification

yabbadabba
15-07-2014, 10:42
Well the BsB (who's already distressingly close to being mandatory) comes with that standard.

As for further Hold the Line characters: Well like I said: If you have specific plan for them that's fine, but generally I find it more expensive than it's worth. You can of course add a Captain to a Halberdier unit to stiffen them a little bit, but it cost you 12+ Halberdiers you cold bring instead. It's not necessarily a bad idea, but Empire captains is a choice that require justification You can argue the same with the Warrior Priest. He just isn't as effective round on round as a captain, so you are hoping to do the business in the first round, or you need to see your WP as an offensive option. As I also said, its a defensive tactic and these days there is very much a one size fits and fails some approach to seeing an army list - I'd rather take the captain in a defensive situation, and if defending something like a castle or similar they suddenly become that immoveable object. If you want to be really sad and overkill, a captain in a block of Greatswords becomes almost unbreakable.

Wesser
15-07-2014, 11:24
You can argue the same with the Warrior Priest. He just isn't as effective round on round as a captain, so you are hoping to do the business in the first round, or you need to see your WP as an offensive option. As I also said, its a defensive tactic and these days there is very much a one size fits and fails some approach to seeing an army list - I'd rather take the captain in a defensive situation, and if defending something like a castle or similar they suddenly become that immoveable object. If you want to be really sad and overkill, a captain in a block of Greatswords becomes almost unbreakable.

Hold The Line is only good if you lose combat.

In a defensive setup I'd expect to have softened up the enemy and arranged my units to receive the enemy. I favor WP's beyond their Hatred ability because I can often cast their damn useful buffs with impunity (either my opponent hold on to their dispel dice or I just 6-dice it) fearing no miscast. If I cast reroll to wound or the 5+ ward I'd reckon that's a lot more effective at keeping that unit from running.

So no. I don't think you compare WP's and Captains. Captains are very specific in the role you give them. WP's are more versatile

yabbadabba
15-07-2014, 11:33
Well, we will have to agree to disagree then.

EvanM
15-07-2014, 16:25
they are both good. Captain + tarpit = good, Warrior priest + horde of infantry = good.

the 6 dicing WP prayers is like an amazing gift from sigmar, most times you only get one spell off anyway so when you roll a 6 and a 1 for the magic phase of a close combat turn... yeah i throw 7 dice at either 5++ or reroll to wound and its amazing. no downside.

I play with 1 foot WP, 1 mounted WP that charges in with Reiksguard. its great.

if they had fireball of some kind i would just run 4 WPs and no wizards, honestly.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-07-2014, 10:52
Any Captain who's not the BSB or on a Pegasus is a waste of points. You're just spending points to be better at losing. Admittedly it's sometimes a good idea to make a tarpit even stickier but the thing is you're either steadfast, in which case something like Ld 8 + re-roll gives you a 92.6 % chance of holding, or you're not, in which case HtL isn't all that brilliant. Nice to have, certainly, but at the expense of something else.

Although I haven't run one for ages either, a Warrior Priest is a lot more useful since he actually does stuff, and in multiple phases. Defensive or offensive stance, that's a bit semantics. Winning a fight is the best safeguard against legging it IMO. There's a reason why you hardly ever see surplus foot Captains, and it's not at all lazy players just copying netlists.

yabbadabba
16-07-2014, 13:00
Again, experience makes me disagree.

Cooper97
24-07-2014, 05:00
I did a similar challenge and what you will find is that whilst demigryphs are expensive, when backed up with a solid block of crossbows or a cannon, and some foot soldiers, they are one formidable unit on the field. Cannons are always welcome but your most useful tool are large blocks of core units. spearmen, swordsmen or halberdiers are a god send when fighting nearly every army.

Your warrior priest is almost useless because his special powers can basically be brought by a general. Your elector count needs a gw but would be more effective in a 30 man unit of greatswords. Magic is always useful and the main character i would recommend balthazar gelt because he is level 4 gold wizard and is also a great model. A larger unit of knights as a flanking unit is brilliant when fighting similar armies to the empire (eg. Chaos or Lizardmen) but can also be used as a charging, frontline unit when versing horde armies. Giving your knights the razor standard makes them deadly on a charge and the fact that they are generally an effective unit means they are great and many more are needed. I would avoid huntsmen because they are a waste of points and those points would be better spent on detachments fora grearsword unit or a large unit of core troops.

The easiest thing to do in all honesty would be to buy the Empire army book and make your own mind up about how you want to structure your army.

DeaNos
27-07-2014, 09:46
I play very little fantasy at the moment but a fair amount of 40 k and have been wondering if an empire gunline of sorts would work?

I bring up the 40k point because when faced with 2+ save I'd gladly poor 20 bolter rounds into that squad. Can te same be said for a unit or two of hand gunners? When things come into range just shoot up the units.

I wouldn't be looking at just hand gunners for my entire army but definatly filling my core up with them and before I commit to the models and painting just looking for se experience others may have.

Cheers

WhispersofBlood
27-07-2014, 14:01
I play very little fantasy at the moment but a fair amount of 40 k and have been wondering if an empire gunline of sorts would work?

I bring up the 40k point because when faced with 2+ save I'd gladly poor 20 bolter rounds into that squad. Can te same be said for a unit or two of hand gunners? When things come into range just shoot up the units.

I wouldn't be looking at just hand gunners for my entire army but definatly filling my core up with them and before I commit to the models and painting just looking for se experience others may have.

Cheers

To hit modifiers make that a losing strategy, Handgunners hit worse than Space Orks in a lot of circumstances.

On DGKs, if you aren't using Lore of Light liberally I would probably pass, make the unit a 2nd steam tank or more shooting. Ws4, I4 is pretty limiting on the number of targets you can target without help, and Empire generally won't have issues defeating infantry.

English 2000
27-07-2014, 14:25
Your warrior priest is almost useless because his special powers can basically be brought by a general.

Could you elaborate on that point please?

How does a general give a unit rerolls to hit and wound, a 5++ and flaming attacks?

Lord Solar Plexus
27-07-2014, 16:51
Demigryphs are very cheap compared to...well, nearly everything. They're cheaper than 10 Knights and better, they're cheaper than 40, 50 infantry and better at everything but losing.

Empire infantry is the least useful tool on the field. This statement is so far off the truth as to amount to pretty serious trolling. State troops simply keel over once anybody looks at them and as Wesser has pointed out, need about their points' worth in support.

It's outright false that a general brings the powers of a WP along and that the latter is useless. I'm not sure why that guy is making all this stuff up but it's extremely misleading for new players. Weird.

yabbadabba
27-07-2014, 21:08
Could you elaborate on that point please?
How does a general give a unit rerolls to hit and potentially to wound, a 5++ and flaming attacks?edited that for you ;).

I find my WP die a lot more quickly than my captains or GotE.

WhispersofBlood
27-07-2014, 22:16
edited that for you ;).

I find my WP die a lot more quickly than my captains or GotE.

Shield of Faith is probably my favorite prayer. I've used it in bus formation to break Throgg + trolls, and other such infantry crushing units. People have quickly learned to let hammer go through and stop shield.

EvanM
28-07-2014, 05:18
i love warrior priests for being able to either 1 dice their spells, and even if they fail they dont lose conccentration AND have the option to 6 dice it and just go for IF which doesnt cause a miscast. sweet.

5++ ward on infantry is good, so is reroll to wound. both actually makes empire infantry good.

empire infantry has the best selection of support of any army, wagons, priests, wizards, captains, detachments .... all combined make them threatening.

they do however need equal points in support. so 300 pts of halberdiers need 300 pts of warrior priests, wagons, wizards, and captains to work effectively.

English 2000
28-07-2014, 10:48
edited that for you ;).


Edited or not my original point still stands.

yabbadabba
28-07-2014, 16:04
Edited or not my original point still stands.Its inaccurate. Pedantic I know but this feels like pedantry might be important.

English 2000
28-07-2014, 16:47
Haha Ok be pedantic. Either way the General doesn't offer any of those things.

Personally I think Warrior Priests are a must have on any infantry or knight unit that's expected to fight in any significant combat.

I generally put heavy Armour and a shield on mine, sometimes a helmet too. They seem to survive ok.

I support with Light magic though so they're usually -1 to hit or WS10 (both when I get lucky) so that helps a lot.

EvanM
28-07-2014, 18:38
The big drawback is warrior priests' lack of full plate armor. If they had that then why would anyone need generals/captains.
I think light is one of the best lores for empire

DeaNos
28-07-2014, 22:50
For hold the line and stubborn and ld 10 :) never run away! Well very small chance to