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EvanM
10-07-2014, 09:05
so, skaven are broken, everyone knows that but I just had an idea that is basically a list that says FU to dwarfs and their gunlines.

basically you take this:

200 skaven slaves -spears -musician (502) 20 wide, 10 deep
200 skaven slaves -spears -musician (502) 20 wide, 10 deep
120 Stormvermin -FC -shields -warpfire thrower (1060) 10 wide, 12 deep
Queek Headtaker (215) in the stormvermin unit
a tanky BSB (110)
Storm banner (on BSB or storm vermin or something)
and then theres some pts left for some gutter runners to screen the army and kill chaff


basically you line up like:

[gutters]
[slaves] [stormvermin] [slaves]

and march across the field with 400 soldiers with rerollable steadfast LD10.

all those cannons, grudge throwers, flame cannons, thunderers and pretty much everything they have cant do jack against this. They MIGHT kill like 100 slaves before combat but thats nothing!

then in combat you just sit there, refusing to run while you shoot warpfire thower rounds into combat and scatter onto the dwarfs. Their artillery becomes useless during combat and eventually (maybe after 4 turns of combat) you route the dwarf army and run them down.

basically no matter how many fricken slaves they kill it still wont matter.

what do you guys think??

what could you possibly do (as dwarfs) against this???

Itsacon
10-07-2014, 10:01
1) Have fun painting that
2) You're assuming your enemy will sit there waiting for you.
3) The Dwarfs won't be killing slaves. Every piece of shooting will be aimed at the Stormvermin, and if you fail just one panic test, your army is basically gone...
4) Stone-throwers and Flame Cannons can't miss you, and especially Flame Cannons force an automatic panic test. A smart player will either make sure he hits at least two units with each shot, or force you to take as many Look Out Sir! rolls on the General and BSB as possible.
5) With blocks that big, it's very easy for your enemy to avoid getting into combat with all of them at once. A sacrifical unit of slayers, or a tank-unit like Iron Breakers can easily tie one or two of them up for a few turns while the rest of the army concentrates on one of them. And again: They don't have to kill the slaves. Once the Stormvermin is gone, you've essentially lost.
6) Then a tooled-up General issues a challenge, kills off the characters one-by-one, and suddenly your entire army is running

And finally: Even if it were `unbeatable', are you going to have fun with this?

PS: Only just noticed: Did they really remove the rule where every unit has to take a Panic test if the General dies?

Snake1311
10-07-2014, 10:26
Cannon off the Warpfire Thrower, then throw some cannonballs through Queek's face.
Gyros + any other shooting wipe the gutter runners.
Tadaaaa! 100+ VP difference = victory.

Horded Slaves kill under 2 dwarfs per combat = no one cares.
If Queek gets near combat, smack him in the face with GWs, he'll kick the bucket pretty quickly (like, round 1 quickly). He might take out some Dwarf characters in the process, although a canny dwarf player can abuse the Trophy Heads rule. Either way, Queek would cost roughly the same, and once he kicks the bucket the slaves are gonna run if in combat. A dwarf lord with fairly minimal gear will kill him combat in 1 round anyway though.

21 Stormvermin = 10.5 hits = 5.25 wounds, if Razor banner present. Need 6 rounds of combat to take down a proper unit; considering you'll get in combat T3 at earliest, you have 8 rounds max, most likely 6 or 7; the second any character or champion blocks off some attacks, you get 0 points.

tneva82
10-07-2014, 10:33
all those cannons, grudge throwers, flame cannons, thunderers and pretty much everything they have cant do jack against this. They MIGHT kill like 100 slaves before combat but thats nothing!

Why you assume he would shoot his grudge throwers, flamecannons and so on at the slaves rather than that juicy block of stormvermins? 10x12 they are pretty tough to miss so 120 ain't that scary after 2-3 rounds of shooting short of atrocious misfire string.

You have one(ONE) warpfire thrower. And you rely on that for casualties? It will a) eventually blow up b) be sniped by lone cannon.

When it comes to close combat sure 120 stormvermins look nasty but nasty enough to go head to head with full dwarf unit? Funnily enough in FB hordes of cheap guys into combat doesn't neccessarily work all that well. Rank bonuses are nice but when you are getting attacked by 20+ S5+ attacks rank bonuses get negated quite fast in CR and it's the casualties that matter. I would hate idea of tackling big formation of hammerers with dwarf character or two. Your queek isn't exactly dwarf-lord killer kalibre(so basically has to keep refusing challenges leaving dwarf characters maiming your stormvermins).

And slaves he'll just keep busy with some dwarf warriors. No need to kill slaves when winning stormvermins wins the game.

Typo
10-07-2014, 10:39
Itsacon - The only removed that rule 3 editions ago, don't worry.

EvanM -
If I was the dwarf player, I would have artillery spread evenly across the table and not castled, so you would have to pick where to aim.

I would use a gyrocopter to steam off your skirmishers, and then park it and a friend so that your 3 blocks cannot wheel, and can only move forwards.

Everything else will move out of the way, so you can only march up to the other side of the table, or charge with slaves only - the only thing you have with killing power is the stormvermin.

A minimum size unit of poison sling gutters is almost 100 on it's own.
The WFT eats hot lead or a cannonball or two.
The remaining turns are waiting on you to fail a look out sir and have Queek eat a cannon.

The dwarf either gets a draw (your Gutters vs the single warmachine you can move forward towards), or gets lucky and gets a win by cannon sniping your characters.

Alternatively, he focuses on one of your 400 point slave units - flank charge leaves them on a rerollable 7 (or 8 for Queek?)

That's a win right there if they break without taking out the entirety of the dwarf unit at the same time.

It's a tough list, which would have to be played against carefully and not just waiting for you to arrive (thus not castling) But at the same time, I do not think it is the most competitive list for Skaven - against anything other than Dwarfs, you'd be screwed, as they would just move out of the way while performing the same sort of movement restrictions with their chaff / zapping gutters with magic.

Snake1311
10-07-2014, 10:44
What I don't understand is why aim to build glitchy (and clearly ineffective) lists to win against dwarfs with skaven, when the standard netlist already does a number on the dawi if played correctly :P

Urgat
10-07-2014, 11:34
1)PS: Only just noticed: Did they really remove the rule where every unit has to take a Panic test if the General dies?

Her... yeah, three editions ago? :p

Itsacon
10-07-2014, 13:34
Itsacon - The only removed that rule 3 editions ago, don't worry.



Her... yeah, three editions ago? :p

Sorry, I've been out of it for a while :)

Cassius105
10-07-2014, 13:39
Wouldnt work imo

personally id use my 3 gryos to bomb off your skirmishers before taking up position behind your storm vermin and boiling masses of them. At the same time the flame cannon and organ gun would be firing into the storm vermin at the same time. This would result in the unit basically being in tatters by the time it reaches combat at which point id engage it with hammerers and take it off.

My longbeard and standard warriors would engage the slaves and start grinding through them and then when the hammerers are done with the storm vermin id flank charge one of the slave blocks and likely kill it.

During this time the 2 cannons would be firing on the thrower and then on queek once they are done

They problem you really have here is the only threat in your army is the massive storm vermin block and dwarves are the kings of template weapons

MOMUS
10-07-2014, 13:52
BASICALLY it's a poor list.

Abaraxas
10-07-2014, 14:13
As an Australian, the thought of how much that list would cost to buy in $$$ is bloody obscene.

Personally I like to build my armies with miniatures I like the look of as the deciding factor instead of what their capability on the table is.
To each his own though.

Snake1311
10-07-2014, 14:53
As an Australian, the thought of how much that list would cost to buy in $$$ is bloody obscene.

Personally I like to build my armies with miniatures I like the look of as the deciding factor instead of what their capability on the table is.
To each his own though.

Starting posts like this reflexively makes me read it out in the voice of Jim Jeffries in my head.
Which makes your post awesome, regardless of content.

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2014, 16:04
10 dwarves in a 5x2 formation flanking those slave units are going to be (on average) forcing a leadership 3 or worse break test.
A gunline list should have little difficulty winning.

Wiping out queeks unit will likely be difficult obviously, but the dwarf player won't need to bother with that to win.

EvanM
10-07-2014, 16:23
dwarfs are slow, flanking is gonna be hard for them but not impossible.

Yes you can concentrate all shooting on the stormvermin, whatever :p If you try shooting all the cannons and everything at queek and wait for him to fail a LoS that could work but you could still just get chieftains in the slave units to get better LD.



OKAY so my point was this: the only reason NOT to take 200 slaves in a unit is because of those "do-or-die" spells where you lose 1/3 or 1/2 of your unit instantly. Dwarfs DO NOT have that, so I figured, how would that work against them?

So are you saying that a horde of slaves wouldnt get to do enough damage to actually route the dwarfs after a few turns?

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2014, 16:36
dwarfs are slow, flanking is gonna be hard for them but not impossible.
It's actually very easy to flank a faster opponent when they only have 3 units.
Being slow doesn't matter because you're coming to him.


So are you saying that a horde of slaves wouldnt get to do enough damage to actually route the dwarfs after a few turns?
A horde will do 3 wounds to dwarves that haven't got sheilds, they'll suffer at least that in return if the enemy dwarf unit has a rank.
Plus you can't do a thing about him flanking you because you only have 3 units.

Steadfast keeps you in place of course (heh leadership 8 from Queek) so they're not too likely to break and die but Queeks unit is effectively trapped at that point. You also need to avoid any terrain that'll remove steadfast from you, which is difficult given the huge size of the units.

Another weakness is Queek has to challenge.
So have fun keeping the BsB alive :P
Or you just decline the challenge and kill queek with regular attacks, he doesn't like being great weaponed by 6 dwarves.

EvanM
10-07-2014, 16:42
So I mean you could trim them a bit and still do the same thing but with more support, like maybe instead of weapon teams you get a grey seer or something, but the general concept of a massive unit of slaves wont work you think?

btw skaven still have a few crazy things to help the stormvermin not die frim shooting
-talisman of -1 to hit from shooting
-ironcurse icon
thats 35 pts that saves like 20% more guys from dying

okay so if you fix the flanking problem and the chaff problem, then what do you think? (what if you kit the slaves with slings, you get 40x2 shots even at bad BS of 2).

does 80 sling shots hitting on 6's kill a gyrocopter?

I also planned on using at least one table edge to be unflankable, 20 men is 16" wide, so 2 of those units take up almist 3 feet of the table.



queek MIGHT get headshotted by a cannon but in challenges he RAEPs dwarfs, even an uber lord with 4 wounds and a 4+ ward can probably be killed.

does 28 slaves (7 wide assuming fighting 4 deep for horde + spears) really only kill 2 warriors per turn on average?
what if you had a grey seer giving them death frenzy or bless with filfth?

Snake1311
10-07-2014, 16:44
So are you saying that a horde of slaves wouldnt get to do enough damage to actually route the dwarfs after a few turns?

I'm saying EXACTLY that. Did the math for you as well :P WS5 means you hit on 5s, then you wound on 5s, then they have heavy armour. If you are horded, you get 3 ranks of attacks, 7 files in contact, so 21 attacks, 7 hits, 2.3 wounds, 1.6 after armour....

With full static, you'll have 3 ranks + those 2 (round up) casualties, so 5...the dwarf block will have a banner, and put down the odd wound; so even when they are out of rank bonus and are low on attacks, they'll be holding if the bsb is around - so you'll have to kill them down to the last man. For a measly and unrealisticly small 20 man block thats 12 rounds of combat.

Any characters you put in the slave blocks will get killed for points. Plus, then you can't use the warpfire thrower.

No one will be doing fancy flanking, no one will expect you to fail look out rolls. Everything outside of your blocks will get picked off, and you'll get 0 VPs back.

EvanM
10-07-2014, 16:52
wow we should just trade slaves for a herd of sheep that we lead into a unit.... fail.

yeah i was assuming I bought them spears for 28 attacks, I guess we also assumed I dont have bless with filth or death frenzy on those units.




okay so its not that good, what it would do is be unbeatable against my brother's army, thats what I intended anyway.
my brother always castles and I feel like i could get him with this.

maybe more weapon teams (20 clanrats + warpfire thrower = 150pts) and you can drop those flame templates onto the slaves (hitting 18+ of them) and half would scatter onto the dwarfs (S5 is good) or even Poison wind mortars that auto kill on a 4+ could be better (hit 10+ guys, kills 3 dwarfs a turn then)


so maybe 150 slaves x2, more other stuff to focus on killing chaff, a warlord with a ward save instead, clanrat units of 20 + WPT or PWM instead of the massive stormvermin unit, maybe even a screaming bell could be in there....

better? could be fun to try out still!!

Snake1311
10-07-2014, 16:53
So I mean you could trim them a bit and still do the same thing but with more support, like maybe instead of weapon teams you get a grey seer or something, but the general concept of a massive unit of slaves wont work you think?

btw skaven still have a few crazy things to help the stormvermin not die frim shooting
-talisman of -1 to hit from shooting
-ironcurse icon
thats 35 pts that saves like 20% more guys from dying

okay so if you fix the flanking problem and the chaff problem, then what do you think? (what if you kit the slaves with slings, you get 40x2 shots even at bad BS of 2).

does 80 sling shots hitting on 6's kill a gyrocopter?

I also planned on using at least one table edge to be unflankable, 20 men is 16" wide, so 2 of those units take up almist 3 feet of the table.

queek MIGHT get headshotted by a cannon but in challenges he RAEPs dwarfs, even an uber lord with 4 wounds and a 4+ ward can probably be killed.

does 28 slaves (7 wide assuming fighting 4 deep for horde + spears) really only kill 2 warriors per turn on average?
what if you had a grey seer giving them death frenzy or bless with filfth?

- Dwarfs don't have to shoot the stormvermin at all to win.
- Dwarfs won't flank you, unless someone's running miners, but they don't need to to win.
- If you slow down your advance to shoot at gyrocopters, you'll never get anywhere. Also, 6s to hit + 6s to wound + 4+ armour = average 72 shots per wound on the gyro, and it has 3.
- Queek has 6 attacks, hits on 4+ with rerolls (4.5 hits), wounds on 2+ (almost 4 wounds). Dwarf lords on shieldbearers have 5 wounds. Add in any sort of ward, and they aren't going anywhere. They, on the other hand, should waste Queek in one round on average. If Queek lucks out and happens to kill the lord, the unit will waste him.

- If you take a Grey Seer, its a completely different list concept - and still, the smartest strategy there is to sit back and power spells through.

EvanM
10-07-2014, 17:01
What if you take a grey seer, tons of cannons/doowheels/abombs/and other crazy **** + like 2x 100 slaves to just chill in front of the lines with slings to be annoying with how many dice they roll and deny the enemy the ability to get into close combat? you could out shoot him even! unless he knows ur doing this and brings MAX artillery + thunderer core.

could be interesting! like use slaves as a wall of bodies. you can shoot weapon teams into the combat if they do attack or pulverize their M3 dudes trying to walk across the field towards you for 4 turns.

Snake1311
10-07-2014, 17:01
Dude, are you just writing weirdo lists to get at your castling brother?

Here's what you do:

- Get 3-4 rat darts.
- Get a screaming bell.
- Get some other stuff for the remining 75% of your army - whatever you like the look of. Keep it elite and compact

Deploy rat darts in places where they won't get in the way, until the dwarf has clearly picked a corner and castled.
Deploy everything else in the opposite corner, out of range of even the grudge throwers.
Ring bell for 5 turns, blow up warmachines.
Win game

Ta-daaa! Genious

EvanM
10-07-2014, 17:06
HAHA holy balls.

see maybe this all comes from the fact that I just want to beat him in an annoying way lol

I never really considered getting a screaming bell, maybe I should... is it worth the 500 pt drop?

its really depressing how little slaves/clanrats do to dwarfs haha. fricken T4....

Urgat
10-07-2014, 17:46
wow we should just trade slaves for a herd of sheep that we lead into a unit.... fail.

Slaves are not for that. They're to keep your opponent stuck in place while you do the flanking and stuff. Expecting them to win in combat with the weakest melee infantry in the game is a bit optimistic.

EvanM
10-07-2014, 17:55
why do people think slaves are OP then?

GrudgeBringer
10-07-2014, 18:26
Because a unit of 100 is LD10 due to generals leadership and steadfast for only 200 points they are tarpits for holding people up you still need things to actually kill the enemy. A unit of 200 slaves costs the same as a unit for 40 dwarf warriors with GW but will never beat them in combat. The slaves have 30 attacks and get 15 hits, 5 wounds and 3 kills. The dwarfs also have 30 attacks, get 20 hits and kill 16 slaves. You will never win a combat and so never break the dwarfs without another unit to help. With your original list you will never beat the standard dwarf list of 2 hordes of warriors and a horde of hammerers plus warmachines. All the dwarf player has to do is line up his warriors against your slaves with the hammerers facing the stormvermin. Use stone throwers to thing out the vermin, (not sure if this has been faq'd but doesnt the storm banner only affect non magical shooting so it does nothing to dwarf warmachines) Even if it does the vermin will still lose enough warriors to shooting that they will lose to the hammeres.

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2014, 19:11
why do people think slaves are OP then?

They're too cheap.
You can shoot at enemies in combat with them and you won't risk hitting the slaves.

EvanM
11-07-2014, 02:39
I think slaves are finely prices BUT they should just not get LD10 rerollable, maybe just take away inspiring presence OR hold the line OR Strength in numbers, the 3 of these combined makes them kind of lame.

Alltaken
11-07-2014, 02:44
Against the first list flame cannons and gyros with templates will have a field day

EvanM
11-07-2014, 02:49
theyd have a field day but how many slaves could even be killed by that? its cool but you oculdnt kill more than 100 of them in shooting over 3 turns of advancing.

Alltaken
11-07-2014, 04:05
Thats all you need, regular quarrelers would rip the rest in combat. A perfect time to use Iron brakers too, with S4 and that brutal save they'll bog you for life.
Again, all they need is to take your storm vermin bsb away. Their lords munch your special character.
Add some Bugmans rangers and keep on pilling, he pretty much focuses all on the vermin, and with enough shots he'll cripple 2 of those blocks so bad by the time you get to mele I'll be 200 slaves vs most of his army intact.

In fact if all he fields is core quarrelers, flame cannons, organ guns (with enough acurracy and rerolls, gyros and a médium sized Bugmans rangers you gonna be beat up badly, he could even bring grudge throwers, maybe even the bomber and a nice slayer conga line to slow your advance enough to pick you appart.

The list you wrote is really week

Abaraxas
11-07-2014, 04:11
Are either player actually going to enjoy playing with or against this army though?

tneva82
11-07-2014, 08:19
I also planned on using at least one table edge to be unflankable, 20 men is 16" wide, so 2 of those units take up almist 3 feet of the table.

Dwarfs should be able to btw position his troops so that so big formations charging will be in terrain=no steafast.

You DO have terrain don't you?-) Not just "ideal no forests etc to hinder these blocks" board specifically geared for your benefits?

tneva82
11-07-2014, 08:23
What if you take a grey seer, tons of cannons/doowheels/abombs/and other crazy **** + like 2x 100 slaves to just chill in front of the lines with slings to be annoying with how many dice they roll and deny the enemy the ability to get into close combat? you could out shoot him even! unless he knows ur doing this and brings MAX artillery + thunderer core.

could be interesting! like use slaves as a wall of bodies. you can shoot weapon teams into the combat if they do attack or pulverize their M3 dudes trying to walk across the field towards you for 4 turns.

Problem with weapon teams is that they get picked off annoyingly easily by shooting. Especially cannons. Last time I had skaven army that was their fate. Particularly move or shoot ones had trouble getting shots off. They were in position to shoot? Opponent shot them. They weren't? You had to move denying shots.

Also I would not count on THEM moving toward YOU. Skaven weapon teams aren't exactly long range and dwarves excel at long range firing and it sounds your brother has gunline. HE will win long range duel=YOU are the one moving toward.

Anyway if you want unbeatable army drop the goal right away. No such thing.

tneva82
11-07-2014, 08:26
Deploy rat darts in places where they won't get in the way, until the dwarf has clearly picked a corner and castled.
Deploy everything else in the opposite corner, out of range of even the grudge throwers.
Ring bell for 5 turns, blow up warmachines.
Win game

Ta-daaa! Genious

What if he doesn't deploy in corner but instead castles up in center? Depending on terrain deploying in corner might not be that viable. I like to castle up to hill anyway. Dwarfs don't have any special rules giving them free hill to where-ever they wish last time I checked so can't count on one corner having hill(or that area then not having some annoying terrain nullifying hill's benefit).

Snake1311
11-07-2014, 09:09
What if he doesn't deploy in corner but instead castles up in center? Depending on terrain deploying in corner might not be that viable. I like to castle up to hill anyway. Dwarfs don't have any special rules giving them free hill to where-ever they wish last time I checked so can't count on one corner having hill(or that area then not having some annoying terrain nullifying hill's benefit).

Then he leaves exposed flanks, and since the Skaven army is still a normal rather than a gimmick build, they can just advance on them?

Cassius105
11-07-2014, 10:12
theyd have a field day but how many slaves could even be killed by that? its cool but you oculdnt kill more than 100 of them in shooting over 3 turns of advancing.

With a direct hit which will be pretty damn easy against those numbers the flame cannon will be hitting 30+ models a shot killing them on 2s. Gyros will probably kill 10 - 15 per steam gun attack so a dwarf list with 3 gyros and a flame cannon will be killing 60 - 70 models a turn and thats before I take into account organ gun/cannons and assuming they are not a full gunline with quarrelers as core

As you can see the casualties will rack up extremely quickly

Also once you are in charge range the sensible thing for the dwarf player to do is to rear charge your slaves with his gyros where they should hold you for a turn leaving the storm vermin to either charge alone and be annihilated by counter charges or sit and endure more shooting

boli
11-07-2014, 14:51
If Queek gets near combat, smack him in the face with GWs, A dwarf lord with fairly minimal gear will kill him combat in 1 round anyway though.


Actually he is a pretty effective dwarf lord killer, +1 to hit, +1 to wound in a challenge (which he *has* to issue/accept) no saves allowed from weapon, 6 attacks and hates dwarves; oh he's easy to kill and challenge lock (and loose hatred) if the dwarves charge but he is pretty good against dwarves... although S4 is lacking; especially if dwarf Lord gets extra wounds and toughness.

That list is pretty garbage though... I've fallen into the trap of just putting all the eggs into one basket and it has *never* worked.

I'm actually playing a 2.4k Skaven vs Dwarf game tomorrow... which shoudl be interesting :P

GrudgeBringer
11-07-2014, 17:04
The standard dwarf lord I run is T6 W6 with a 1+ save and a 5+ ward so queek would have to be very lucky to kill him in one round of combat.

theunwantedbeing
11-07-2014, 17:22
The standard dwarf lord I run is T6 W6 with a 1+ save and a 5+ ward so queek would have to be very lucky to kill him in one round of combat.

Indeed, although he doesn't need a whole lot of luck to kill you in 2 rounds, you'll have difficulty standing up to him for a third round if you survived that.

GrudgeBringer
11-07-2014, 17:44
Indeed, although he doesn't need a whole lot of luck to kill you in 2 rounds, you'll have difficulty standing up to him for a third round if you survived that. I usually run him with the ASF rune and a grudge rune as well so the lord would be hitting queek on 3's with with hatred in the fisrt round since queek would be the general and rerolling wounds. Queek dies in the second round of combat before attacking and the dwarf loses on average around 3 wounds, he has still has 3 left and there is nothing left in the skaven army that can touch him in combat

Alltaken
11-07-2014, 19:03
The build will probably not work and the game would be a freaking bore.

liddan
11-07-2014, 20:38
Even if you could win against dwarfs, the army blows chunks against alot of other armies. Well done!

The usual absolutely pointless drivel that comes from EvanM's threads.

EvanM
11-07-2014, 21:10
Then why the balls do you read them

boli
13-07-2014, 03:00
The standard dwarf lord I run is T6 W6 with a 1+ save and a 5+ ward so queek would have to be very lucky to kill him in one round of combat.

1+ is meaningless, his weapons ignore armour saves against dwarves.

I'll admit he still has to be lucky (more the dwarf player has to be unlucky) but against dwarf heroes he can slice and dice and let's be frank in a one on one combat Queek is the best skaven have! (And its not good enough, but still surprises people occasionally)

EvanM
13-07-2014, 07:18
6 attacks, good initiative, no AS, he hits on 2/3's, he has hatred, he wounds on 2's, the ONLY thing is the ward save, so a 4++ will save the lord from half of those hits.

its likely that queek does 5 wounds to even the toughest heavily armored dwarf character, so only a ward save helps them.

GrudgeBringer
13-07-2014, 09:39
As i pointed out the dwarf lord also has ASF and the grudge rune so while queek does 3 wounds in the first round of combat he is dead before he strikes in the second, with around a 30% chance that he will die in the first round. The dwar lord has 4 attacks hitting on 3's with hatred rerolls and wounds on 4's with rerolls which is 4(8/9) * (3/4) = 2.67 wounds and queek only gets a 5+ since there is a runesmith in the dwarf unit to give armour piercing. Then queek strikes doing 6(8/9) * (5/6) = 4.4 wounds and the dwarf has a 5+ ward. Then the sheild bearers attack 2 attacks hitting and wounding on 4s possible with hatred so another 0.5 or 0.75 of a wound. Either way there is a good chance queek dies in the first round and over a 90% chance he will die in the second before he can attack and kill the lord.

Alltaken
13-07-2014, 16:02
Dwarf lord on a palanquin with Master rune of speed, rune of grudge and rune of fury. Spend the rest of the points as you see fit and bring a rune priest for the ap and your queek is dead before he even attacks, and his attacks back from the armor wont kill the dwarf lord.

Put him in the unit with the bsb for not being charged. You could also go for asf in the banner (bsb) and remove the Master speed and pick something else.

Queek and you list is no real unbeatable challenge to a tailored dwarf list as tailored as yours.

EvanM
13-07-2014, 22:41
IF the dwarf list is tailored to doing this yes, sure, you can't probably win against the lord. You can however win against every other character in their army and you should probably avoid the lord anyway, he is likely in a unit of hammerers that could just tarpit queek into killing one guy a turn.

If a lord that isn't exactly like this is taken (very likely, its not like this is a normal lord build) then you can maybe killl him in the second round after you Lose 2 wounds.

Remem$ber that this lord is like 300 pts and queek is 215, so still, I say it's a good match up. Plus this does not account for queek getting poison or +1A from the screaming bell or death frenzy while the dwarves have no such buff magic. And any saved armor save is a S5 hit on the lord...

For being less points I take queek anyday

tneva82
14-07-2014, 08:27
Then he leaves exposed flanks, and since the Skaven army is still a normal rather than a gimmick build, they can just advance on them?

Depends on how many units he has. I have seen plenty of dwarves who deploy in half-circle in center. No exposed flanks. Rather than table edge you have unit covering your flank.

Snake1311
14-07-2014, 09:37
Evan, I don't think a ward save on your main combat character is 'tailoring' particularly. In the elfmeta, 4++ and a great weapon is a pretty good, cheap build (and since dwarf blocks have AP now, Queek won't be getting any Sv rolls). Any other build would still have some defensive investment, either 6 wounds or -1 to hit for example. Yes, queek can get lucky and instagib him, but its unlikely.

Anyway, even if queek qins the challenge, he gets wasted by the unit the turn after. No big difference.

@tneva82, the semi-circle often means your units don't support each other all too well (as an enemy charging one may end up out of the arc of the dwarf unit next to it), so even though you can't flank anything, you can pinpoint a weak spot and run through it.

tneva82
14-07-2014, 11:07
@tneva82, the semi-circle often means your units don't support each other all too well (as an enemy charging one may end up out of the arc of the dwarf unit next to it), so even though you can't flank anything, you can pinpoint a weak spot and run through it.

You aren't too concerned about your flanking warrior blocks against those 100 slave blocks ;) You just need the warriors to hold 'em place while your hammerers will scythe through remnants of stormvermins(after they have been bombarded to death).

I'll join ranks of slayers if my warriors need help from some stinking skaven slaves :)

MOMUS
28-08-2014, 23:53
So is this list still considered UNBEATABLE or not?

EvanM
28-08-2014, 23:58
it never was

MOMUS
29-08-2014, 00:00
Y'know it's considered poor form to get a mans hopes up this much :mad:

EvanM
29-08-2014, 00:02
i just thought since dwarves have no dwellers (or other all model hitting attack) then an army of literally 1000 slaves would be unbeatable. but it still is beatable

russellmoo
30-08-2014, 22:57
3 or 4 blocks of 50 slaves, is plenty effective when it comes to dealing with a dwarf gunline. Stormbanner plus iron curse icon and shadow magnet trinket are all useful. Plus take two warp lightning cannons some doomwheels an hellpit skaven are already a tough match for dwarfs.

EvanM
30-08-2014, 23:14
gun lines are VERY annoying to play against, skaven have a very interesting way of saying screw you to gunlines, so i agree to that statement.

id go for magic, randomly big slave units, and trying to get as many doomwheels and hellpits to the other side as possible

Montegue
01-09-2014, 05:34
gun lines are VERY annoying to play against, skaven have a very interesting way of saying screw you to gunlines, so i agree to that statement.

id go for magic, randomly big slave units, and trying to get as many doomwheels and hellpits to the other side as possible

Skaven are VERY annoying to play against.

"Wait, what happens when you misfire?"

"I get to charge"

"What does the Hellpit do?"

"18 wounds"

"How does that spell work again?"

"I get a unit of clan rats out of your unit of longbeards"

"What strength is the Doomwheel's lightning again?"

"10"

"So, this bus of Skaven Slaves are LD 10 rerollable? And if I kill them they're worth less than 100 points?"

"yep"

...


I play a tiny, tiny violin for your irritation with gunlines given that you play skaven.