PDA

View Full Version : screaming bell, pros and cons?



EvanM
11-07-2014, 23:40
Good? Bad? Or just ugly? And why

liddan
11-07-2014, 23:45
Bad because any player aware of the rules will just direct a bunch of attacks on the grey seer and kill him off. Even mediocre units can easilly kill him even with a 4++.

I think it's overused.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
12-07-2014, 00:13
Good: unit becomes unbreakable. Better yet when it's run 5-wide, with the bell taking up 3 of these and an assassin wall taking up the rest. Nasty nasty stuff.

Good: Grey Seer gets a free 4++ save.

Good: 18" general bubble.

Good: Being a mount, the greyseer doesn't give his points up until the bell is gone as well, and until it's gone the unit remains unbreakable (greyseer or not)

Good: Give the greyseer fencer's blades and he's harder than expected to kill in a challenge. Plus the rat ogre gets to fight.

Bad: General becomes a cannon target, and losing your general is bad times for Skaven.

Bad: General is really easy to direct attacks against in CC, and dies quite easily.

Bad: You may have one big unbreakable even if the greyseer dies, but the rest of your units are suddenly on steadfast ********.

3eland
12-07-2014, 00:31
I always place the Bell defensively. Meaning it never, or hardly ever, get's into combat. Then just nuke spells off. I don't play vs many cannons though (OK cannon thing, Bolters, Hellcannon once in a while, but nothing like Empire or Dwarfs).

EvanM
12-07-2014, 02:15
so against empire or dwarfs is the screaming bell dead weight? (assuming you arent taking 2 doomwheels and 2 abombs as well)

3eland
12-07-2014, 02:21
Without other scary things to worry about or chaff units to soak cannon balls you won't make it very far. Not with the current cannon rules any way. Hits both bell and Seer since it's considered a monster.

Sexiest_hero
12-07-2014, 02:55
it looks awesome. that fact alone beats any con.

russellmoo
12-07-2014, 06:25
The bell does look good. Personally I tend not to make my grey seer my general and as such don't run it, as it is ideal as a mount for a grey seer general, but a bit lackluster otherwise.

It is also dependent on what type of list you are running. Are you going for twin towers, or is your list more of the tool box approach.

EvanM
12-07-2014, 19:51
What do u m$ean twin towers? I am looking for a way to get my skaven to kick dwarf butt

Borgomos
12-07-2014, 20:16
I know people will contest me on this, but i would just sacrifice the 18 inch leadership bubble and just go for a cheapo Warlord as your general. That way you can be more callous with your Bell unit.

Imperator64
12-07-2014, 21:06
Truth is cannons ruin it. Unless yiu have a warlord as general its suicide in an all comers list. If you and your opponents ever agree tailor then its playable but skaven really need their general and the bell makes yours an easy target.

EvanM
12-07-2014, 21:10
thought so. Cannons should just do d3 wounds and grant a look out sir of at least 4+ even for things like cav in infantry units or screaming bells.

I play empire too and i feel guilty whenever i have to fire my cannon... its like hmm what do i want to delete this turn.

russellmoo
12-07-2014, 21:19
What do u m$ean twin towers? I am looking for a way to get my skaven to kick dwarf butt

Twin towers = a bell pushed by a large unit, and a plague furnace pushed by a large unit. The goal being points denial, as your army is consolidated into two large unbreakable blocks.

EvanM
12-07-2014, 22:05
thats pretty cool, Kind of awesome actually.

Itd work against everyone BUT my brother with his cannons. ugh. I am at the point where i try to convince him to use one cannon as a flame cannon instead.


it kind of sucks that you cant bring certain things (epic fail) if the enemy brings certain things.

Rock beats scissors but scissors one shots paper on turn one.....

boli
13-07-2014, 14:01
Last time I used my bell the grey seer got sucked into the warp and then I rolled 18 on the bell chart next turn and it blew up talking half my army with it.

For points efficiency wise, a bunker of clanrats w. Shield is best giving a 2+ save vs cannons especially as you can skitterleap away if things get too hairy!

That said it's a lot of fun and what is playing skaven without the fun :D

underscore
13-07-2014, 14:25
To be honest I've rarely regretted playing the offensive Stormvermin Bell. I may not have always won, but it's far from the worse build you can play.

The main thing I found is to just keep up the target saturation: Sure, they could cannon your Bell, but they'll also want to cannon your HPAs, Doomwheels, WLCs and whatnot. The 4+ Ward does offer some protection, of course, and there's always the Storm Banner.

Even in combat I find that opponents have a tough time deciding what to attack. The Stormvermin with Razor Standard do decent damage, the Seer is obviously handy but the Bell is also very important to get rid of for it's effects. I know some people swear by getting rid of the Bell first, others want the Seer, others want to get rid of the unit. But generally they want to get rid of all 3 and don't focus their attacks enough:

A Fencer's Blade/4++ Seer can usually survive a surprising number of attacks and really needs to be focused to be got rid of, otherwise he just chugs his Skalm and they're back to square one with him.

EvanM
13-07-2014, 18:53
I think i would run an offensive bell at 2500 pts with storm banner, id use storm banner first turn and it can keep going while i charge. Its kind of cheap, but whatever. Also the grey seer can get that spell that does the same thing as a storm banner for a turn.

I may not charge into combat but just keep it behind the lines in a big unit of clanrats.

4++ against cannon balls is decent, and it does have 6 wounds so you can only kill it one shot if you get a 6 and i fail my ward.

If i do it though i would DEFINITELY have to bring the abomb, basically either shoot the expensive bell with a ward save or shoot the abomb, but im gonna get one into the battle.


so what about bell vs furnace, what is better?

underscore
13-07-2014, 19:26
If you're putting it in a unit of Clanrats and keeping it behind the lines then that's kinda the opposite of an offensive Bell! :)

Often I go with the Banner of the Under Empire on my BSB and keep him in the corner edge rather than the Storm Banner and just try to get the Bell into combat asap... but then I've never been the safest of players. There is also the option of putting an Assassin in the unit for yet more protection.

And you'd definitely want more target saturation than just an A-Bomb, imo.

EvanM
13-07-2014, 21:29
So an assassin to kill any characters who are like aha! I will kill your bell! That could work.....

I just don't want to buy a 60 buck bell thing and have m$y brother always shoot it to death with his 2 cannons first turn. Probably have to go bell AND he'll pit... oh sorry I also have a doomwheel. so with those three, maybe he can't kill all of them as I attack.

I want to run my skaven to give my brother's dwarfs a run for their money. He plays dwarves with 2 cannons, an organ gun, thunderers BUT unlike the netlists he runs slayers because he loves the models.

Any thoughts? I would literally buy "fozzik's folding fortress" just to put it in front of the bell to block cannon balls (would that work????????!!!!!)

liddan
13-07-2014, 22:04
You will still have to move around it eventually or the bell and its unit is a complete waste. There should be some terrain you can use to shield yourself from atleast one of his cannons though. I wouldn't worry about giving slayers and thunderers "a run for their money" when playing skaven.

Also it's a very frowned upon item.

EvanM
13-07-2014, 22:12
Well storm banner is probably the main reason i'd consider running it. Paying 50 pts to say haha screw you cannons is very worth it.

So if i'm deciding between 40 stormvermin and a bell + abomb, what should I pick?

Wesser
14-07-2014, 07:08
thought so. Cannons should just do d3 wounds and grant a look out sir of at least 4+ even for things like cav in infantry units or screaming bells.

I play empire too and i feel guilty whenever i have to fire my cannon... its like hmm what do i want to delete this turn.

Well, I only ever bring one cannon and generally it deletes itself on Turn 1, but aside from my luck with it...

1. You can castle your bell. Yep, during terrain deployment you can sure there's some nice obstacles and other terrain that you can hide you bell behind. Sure some terrain may block the Seer's LOS, but that just means you have to be clever about it.

2. Skaven is a bit short on warmachine hunters, but in a Screaming Bell list you really should have at least Gutter Runners.

3. Target Saturation. Screaming Bells is probably the juiciest of targets, but Doomwheels and Hellpits are a more immediate threat..


Ultimately Cannons tend to only get 2 shots before LOS tend to get seriously impaired or the right targets are in combat. For that reason alone I don't find them too OP. And the Screaming Bell is like a magic phase unto itself. I've seen a Skaven army lose the Grey Seer only for the Screaming Bell to carry the battle by itself

underscore
14-07-2014, 10:06
Yeah, unbreakable is pretty powerful in and of itself, don't forget (presuming you're in combat).

And remember that the best war machine hunter is probably the WLC anyway - it's almost always my opponent's first choice target so I can't go and delete his next.


So if i'm deciding between 40 stormvermin and a bell + abomb, what should I pick?
All of them! :)

Oogie boogie boss
14-07-2014, 13:05
I've always thought it's brilliant tbh. Sure, it's a cannon magnet, but you should have a few other things to worry about. Get your GS to climb to the top in combat and run it in. Impact hits, 4++, Rat Ogre attacks and that's before the rung bell effects. You have to get it in a big enough unit though- 50-60 minimum. Run it into combat so Cannons can't get at it, and that sized unit with Unbreakable will hold pretty much anything up, and will beat most things.

FatTrucker
14-07-2014, 15:04
Makes the unit unbreakable. T6 W6. Gives the seer a 4++ or 2++ against magic. Gives the whole unit 5++ against magic. Does impact hits, causes terror, adds 4x St 5 Rat Ogre attacks. Gives Seer 360 degree arc of sight for casting. Allows seer to climb to avoid challenges, and on top of all that offers some excellent spells/effects/buffs during the magic phase by ringing it.

Its a must take. Units shooting it have to randomise and only hit the seer on a 6, high strength shots actually ring it. In combat, give the seer fencers blades and he's very, very well protected. Most things are only hitting him on 5's and then he's got a 4++. And the bell itself (which suffers no ill effects from the seers death) is very hard to kill for most infantry/cav.

Push it with a horde of Stormvermin and its naughty.

Specifically against warmachine heavy lists, the 'deafening peals' result on the Bell chart causes D3 automatic wounds against anything T7 or above on the entire table. In my experience if you're rolling 3 dice on the chart, this happens at least twice per game.

Cons.
Costs 100 slaves
Loses movement, and eventually becomes immobile if not enough models are left to push it.

boli
14-07-2014, 16:12
Get your GS to climb to the top in combat and run it in.

you can only climb to the top out of the way if your opponent challenges you; if he doesn't then that's a T4, 6+ AS, 3W 4++ target with a 60mm frontage.... that's a *lot* of rank and file and character attacks he can focus on your 18" Leadership bubble.

Lord Dan
14-07-2014, 16:53
Pros:
1. Your unit is unbreakable and can never flee.
2. Ringing the bell can sometimes do serious damage.
3. Because it's a monster, your general has 18" Ld bubble.

Cons:
1. Your unit is unbreakable and can never flee.
2. Ringing the bell can sometimes do nothing.
3. Because it's a monster, your general can be targeted by just about everything.

EvanM
14-07-2014, 18:59
And what about plague furnace? Nor ur general, not a lorde, not as many points...?

Okay I love what the bell does and making artillery vibrate to death sounds fun

boli
14-07-2014, 22:55
Plague furnace is scary in combat, especially against T3 elves.

Sounds weird but plague banner almost wasted in such a unit as the plague furnace takes up so much space.

If you are against none-elves or low I troops a "detachment" of plague censor bearers work really well as a flanking unit to go with it. Against elves they are cut down before they strike.

But Never *ever* take plague censor on your plague priest on a plague furnace though. You are forcing 15T tests on your side before combat even starts!

boli
14-07-2014, 22:56
Big downside to plague furnace is being frenzy bated, and forced to overrun. Furnace us useless if being charged in the flank.

underscore
14-07-2014, 23:20
But Never *ever* take plague censor on your plague priest on a plague furnace though. You are forcing 15T tests on your side before combat even starts!
They only wound on 6s though... still not great odds of course!

boli
14-07-2014, 23:28
On average you'll kill as many of yours as his every round (if he is T3). You could say it'll pay for itself but since you are already forcing T tests anyways just buy him a flail and be done with it.

Keeping on the plague priest side of things amazing how many people forget how much of a beast he is in combat with a flail 3*S6 attacks first round of combat.

EvanM
15-07-2014, 03:49
plague priest is harder to kill in combat than a grey seer (does the plague priest get a 4++???)

the furnace is cool and its only Hero points, and you can take one for like 200 pts less than a screaming bell... so.... why not? i mean i have plague monks... and its not AS BAD if it gets shot by cannons.

Wesser
15-07-2014, 06:25
plague priest is harder to kill in combat than a grey seer (does the plague priest get a 4++???)

the furnace is cool and its only Hero points, and you can take one for like 200 pts less than a screaming bell... so.... why not? i mean i have plague monks... and its not AS BAD if it gets shot by cannons.

Last 3 games I've played against Skaven I've faced the Furnace.


It has two problems compared to the bell:

a) Unlike the bell it's predictable. You know exactly how it'll move and how to counter it especially if you use frenzy baiting

b) It has no Ward save. In those 3 games the same happened in every game. Chaff killed each other, then my Blood Knights charging in and splatted the bell and the Plague Priest before they could strike. They they casually ran down the Plague monks when they broke.

I feel they are vastly different. The bell is a force multiplier, while the Furnace is Unbreakable with damage attached... and the Furnace tends to be a lot more manageable, but then its a hero choice...


In both cases it's pretty funny to watch the Skaven player roll the "all-models-in base-contact" miscast :)

EvanM
15-07-2014, 16:36
2500
0
10.2459016393443
244


Unit
Equipment
PPM
Models


Warlord
4++, dragonhelm, fencer's blades, ironcurse icon
90
1


Chieftain
Battle Standard, enchanted shield
75
1


Warlock Engineer
lvl 1, skavenbrew, pistol
15
1


Grey Seer

240
1








Clanrats
Shield, SB+M, P.W. Mortar
4.5
39


Clanrats
Shield, SB+M, Warpfire Thrower
4.5
39


Slaves
(bunker)
2
23


Slaves

2
45


Stormvermin
FC, razor standard
7
40








Rat Ogres
2 packmasters
40
6


Gutter runners
slings, poison
17
10


Plague Monks
FC
7
40








Doomwheel

150
1










this is my list right now, the stormvermin I dont have yet, I think its between 40 stormvermin (awesome) or a plague furnace / screaming bell + hell pit abomb.

Flash Felix
15-07-2014, 23:08
I play Dwarves, and I find the Bell quite hard to deal with, even with 2 cannons and a grudge thrower.

Why's that? How can 3 S10, Multi Wound (d6) war machines have problems with killing the Bell?

Firstly, the Storm Banner will halve the volume of fire, for at least the first turn, possibly the second (25% chance) or even third (6% chance), as you need a 4+ to shoot. Thanks GW FAQs.

Second, the WLC will be firing counter-battery to kill your artillery before you can shoot the Bell. You may want to kill this first, so the Bell will survive longer while you shoot at the WLC.

Third, strong Skaven lists will have 2 units of 6+ Gutter Runners, maybe more, perfect for killing war machines as they come on the back from Turn 2.

Fourth, the Bell has Deafening Peals on a result of (I think) 11-12 on 3d6, which is a fairly common results. All T7 units (including war machines) take d3 Wounds (not hits, Wounds), though an armour save is allowed. Two of these results (from turn 2) will likely kill all of your war machines.

Fifth, even if you get to hit it, on average, you'll need 5 hits to kill it. One hit is likely to roll '1' to wound, 2 will likely bounce off the 4+ Ward, and it has 6 Wounds, so you are unlikely to kill it with a single hit.

Sixth, if you're not wading through 120 Skavenslaves to reach the Bell in close combat (while being shot at and magicked) then the Skaven player is doing it wrong. When you do get there, the Skaven player can turn his Unbreakable unit around, or present the flank, because who cares if you get a flank or rear charge, these boys aren't breaking.

Seventh, good Skaven players are happy to hide the Bell on the flank, behind buildings, impassable terrain to reduce shooting opportunities. Large terrain will make it invulnerable to war machines (except indirect fire).


The Screaming Bell comes with risks attached, and it is possible to one-shot kill it and the Grey Seer on the first turn with a cannon. But all in all, I think it's a strong item, where the risks to it can be managed fairly easily.

EvanM
16-07-2014, 06:41
Wow as a dwarf player saying that... sounds worth it.

Is there any way to assemble so it can be screaming bell/furnace?

I also don't want to totally **** off my brother when we play..

boli
16-07-2014, 09:33
Kind of... there'll be a lot of magnets needed tho; and you may may issues with the swinging part.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-07-2014, 10:40
Well, I play Empire, which many players still think of as a shooty army with dozens of cannon, yet I can only agree with Fat Trucker and Flash Felix: Cannon are hardly a huge problem they appear to be and a Bell with Seer is very hard to get rid off. Stormbanner, wards, wounds, Gutter Runners, Aboms, Doomwheels, WLC/counterbattery, Bell ringing all combine to make life extremely difficult.

And you can always put a unit in front of the Bell to protect it from cannon. Yes, it's sometimes possible to target a model in this unit but that may or may not be the optimal distance away from the actual target, ie. the Bell. And some Slaves will almost always be enough to block the ground behind them.

I think in some 100 games against Skaven I've killed the GS once with cannon fire. ;)

Josfer
16-07-2014, 11:27
Even with 6 wounds, 4++ and the storm banner, you have a 10% chance to single shot kill it in the first round (with 3 S10 D6 warmachines). And 12% chance to kill it with two hits in the first turn. In that turn, where neither the bell will harm the warmachines nor Gutter Runners. About 50% you go first, so you get even a second round of shots in before your warmachines are in danger (besides WLC), now probably without the Storm Banner. And after the second skaven turn, the gutter runners won't be in CC with warmachines either, as they can't charge on the first turn they enter the board. Deafening Peals will kill one of the three warmachines with 30% chance (total) in the second turn. And the WLC will probably not even wound the warmachines (0% on misfire, 17% on S2 or S4, 33% on S6, 66% on S8 and 83% on S10 is only 36% to wound overall) so only has a 20% chance to kill a warmachine per turn (decreasing as it has a high possibility to blow up on a malfunction). So in around 50% of the games all your warmachines are still alive after skaven turn 2. If you got first turn, this means another (third) round of shooting, with a really high probability of no storm Banner.

And regarding seventh: If he hides his bell the grey seer probably can't see something to cast on and spent ~500 pts for a possible +1A for a turn or attack on your warmachines or reroll leadership rolls (and a really tiny percentage of 17 or 18 results).

EvanM
16-07-2014, 18:51
The math seems to say that it's not a good idea, however practical game experience from the bell's opponent's seem to say the opposite.

I go with experience. I love the idea of the bell and cannons doing d6 wounds and ALWAYS wounding on a 2+ means I don't mind using some curious tactics to let it live.

I just didn't want a dead unit, but you know in 8th ed Skaven book who knows how good the bell will be, it could suck, it could be better. I'm hoping they don't nerf it like the war altar or the runelord with the forge dwarf thing.

Stormvermin are also cool... idk. I want it all!!

BlackPawl
21-07-2014, 09:56
Even with 6 wounds, 4++ and the storm banner, you have a 10% chance to single shot kill it in the first round (with 3 S10 D6 warmachines). And 12% chance to kill it with two hits in the first turn. In that turn, where neither the bell will harm the warmachines nor Gutter Runners. About 50% you go first, so you get even a second round of shots in before your warmachines are in danger (besides WLC), now probably without the Storm Banner. And after the second skaven turn, the gutter runners won't be in CC with warmachines either, as they can't charge on the first turn they enter the board. Deafening Peals will kill one of the three warmachines with 30% chance (total) in the second turn. And the WLC will probably not even wound the warmachines (0% on misfire, 17% on S2 or S4, 33% on S6, 66% on S8 and 83% on S10 is only 36% to wound overall) so only has a 20% chance to kill a warmachine per turn (decreasing as it has a high possibility to blow up on a malfunction). So in around 50% of the games all your warmachines are still alive after skaven turn 2. If you got first turn, this means another (third) round of shooting, with a really high probability of no storm Banner.

And regarding seventh: If he hides his bell the grey seer probably can't see something to cast on and spent ~500 pts for a possible +1A for a turn or attack on your warmachines or reroll leadership rolls (and a really tiny percentage of 17 or 18 results).


As a skaven player it depends on how I use my gutter runner. I can also use them as scouts, 13" away from a cannon and with a little luck I can kill a cannon on the first turn (if I get the first turn, poison, slings).

And yes, you can shoot all three cannons in the first turn against the screeming bell, but this means that you don't aim the HPA, Doomwheel, WLC or other big targets.
If the skaven player only has the bell then he is something doing wrong, because you need target saturation.

If the skaven player hides his bell he can cast his spell regardless, because he only needs LOS for magic missiles but not for his other spells (but I would take then only spells from ruin because plaguespells have a short distance).
After the cannons are gone he can come out with his bell.

EvanM
22-07-2014, 02:52
Does anyone know when the next Skaven release will be?

Wesser
22-07-2014, 07:22
Does anyone know when the next Skaven release will be?

Well it was a few year ago I met Robin Cruddace...

We hung out and after agreeing that HE players are just a bit smellier than other people he told me I could choose between knowing the exact release date and corresponding kits of the Skaven release or I would get to design the Lore of Nehekhara


Ofc I went for the latter, so I guess no one knows when Skaven will be out...

EvanM
23-07-2014, 04:43
you designed lore of Nehek?

tomb kings need a boost. I would have made it pretty OP. like make units immune to crumble for a turn or resurrect tons of stuff IDK.

Josfer
24-07-2014, 12:44
or resurrect tons of stuff IDK.
Did you read the lore attribute and the fact that half of the spells can be cast at all units in a quite large radius? Considering you have a casket, a lvl 2 with scroll of mighty incantations and a lvl 4 both near a hierotitan, you can probably get off 3 spells healing each of your units by ~7 wounds...

Yowzo
24-07-2014, 13:06
Did you read the lore attribute and the fact that half of the spells can be cast at all units in a quite large radius? Considering you have a casket, a lvl 2 with scroll of mighty incantations and a lvl 4 both near a hierotitan, you can probably get off 3 spells healing each of your units by ~7 wounds...

It would be cool if constructs could get more than 1 wound per phase. Or if it could heal characters. As it stands today, it's on the lower rungs of useful.

You just have to look at lore of vampires and cry yourself to sleep in a little corner. The fact they can also march within general range AND also have a movement spell is the little cherry on top.

EvanM
25-07-2014, 01:20
yes i am sure you wrote the lore of nehek just fine without OP-ing it, but thats the problem! tomb kings are kind of boned right now and they need an OP magic lore!

vamp counts have it easy, but are they too cheesy? no!

undead need cheesy magic.