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EvanM
12-07-2014, 21:12
the rat daemon costs the same as 250 skavenslaves or basically a grey seer+bell and hes kind of an epic fail.

he cant join units, he has no ward save, he doesnt have stubborn or unbreakable so he runs like way too much.

I guess I wish they fixed some flaws so that he could bee the skaven version of a daemon prince/chaos god dude.

russellmoo
12-07-2014, 21:20
I agree. He is point costed based off of the rules for seventh and this means that in 8th he is a good fifty plus points too many.

EvanM
12-07-2014, 21:56
well just make those 50 count for stubborn + 4++ ward/regen (actually dont remember whether he does or not have one already)

hes pretty cool lookin though

underscore
13-07-2014, 01:12
He has a 5+ Ward Save, no? To be fair he's not THAT much worse than the Greater Daemons nowadays - maybe comparable with a Level 4 Keeper of Secrets with a Lesser Gift. He's not as good, of course, he does lose a fair amount of stat points in comparison (-2 M, -1 in WS, T, A and Ld). But he has the ward save, magical weapon, Level 4 and a mix and match choice between 2 pretty good Lores all built in.

Though, saying that, a naked, unalligned Level 4 Daemon Prince (of Dameons) with a Lesser Gift is 85 points less and is +1 WS, -1 W, -2 I, +1 Ld.

He's obviously not going to be competitive, but the goalposts have been moved a little more in his favour!

Sexiest_hero
13-07-2014, 04:27
Run him in a list of Big things. cover him from cannons with hellpits and rat ogres or a building, and use him to counter armored units while 13th-ing everything else. He's very very hard to use but awesome when he works.

EvanM
13-07-2014, 04:55
I feel like you have to run the scary nightmare list for models like him to work. for instance, take 2 abombs, 2 doomwheels, rat ogres, screaming bell + furnace or 2 furnaces and then the verminlord.....

so you basically say "hey, so which of my scary **** would you like to delete with your cannons and which of it will you deal with fighting?"

Ultimate Life Form
13-07-2014, 05:28
I agree. He is point costed based off of the rules for seventh and this means that in 8th he is a good fifty plus points too many.

The Vermin Lord was never a particularly solid choice, even when he was first "released" (or should I say, reintroduced). The only real reason to include him in the army is for fluffy reasons. A general rule for Skaven (THE horde army in the game) has always been that if you go elite, they tend to not work very well. And there is hardly anything more elite than the Vermin Lord. He is cool because he brings something special and unique to the army but that also means he doesn't blend very well with the rest.

liddan
15-07-2014, 08:18
I think he is almost as good as greater daemon and people use those all the time. He just doesn't fit very well in skaven in my opinion and tbh, greater daemons aren't what you should get for those kind of points either.

boli
15-07-2014, 09:23
Sadly he is a level 4 slaanesh daemon prince (from the demon's book) for ~100 points more... on the upside the skaven rank and file are cheaper; he'd be much better costed next edition if he only had one spell and was more of a monster than a spellcaster.

You wanna have some fun... check out the Exalted Vermin Lord (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/Skaven/SKAVEN-EXALTED-VERMIN-LORD.html) :P Rules: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/Verminlord.pdf

I've been tempted by that model/rules for a while for the really big games :D

liddan
15-07-2014, 09:57
Quite alot of differences between him and a daemon prince, flying, chaos armour etc. I'd say he is a keeper of secrets with slightly lesser stats but D3 wounds and better lore(s). Shadow and Slaanesh is sick but skaven lores are just out of this wo... edition.

underscore
15-07-2014, 11:18
Both flying and armour are additional costs for the DP, and Slaneesh is a free alignment choice. As I said before, throw in a Lesser Gift as the Doom Glave (I figure that D3 wounds isn't a million miles away from the Muliple Wounds 2 Gift) and the VL comes in as +85 points. I also posted the stat diffs - KoS is definitely better, DP seems a bit closer.

liddan
15-07-2014, 11:39
A weapon with D3 wounds is costed at 50 though. That's with poisoned attacks aswell though. You can't count the gift results as what they cost because there's a one in six chance of getting something and some of the stuff is really garbage and some of the stuff worth above their point cost.

They are additional costs but the DPs point price is based on taking those extra things because otherwise you wouldn't ever buy him over a GD. It's like comparing a chimera without the upgrades to another monster. No one ever buys one without regen and breath weapon so what it costs without is highly irrelevant.

Either way, I would say the VL is on par with GDs and DP which are below par for what they cost. They are way too easy to kill for their point cost imo. No armour and just a 5++.

underscore
15-07-2014, 11:52
A weapon with D3 wounds is costed at 50 though. That's with poisoned attacks aswell though. You can't count the gift results as what they cost because there's a one in six chance of getting something and some of the stuff is really garbage and some of the stuff worth above their point cost.
It was only meant to be a ball-park - as you say, the D3 Wounds one comes with poison... the Multiple Wounds is like an averagly rolling one... either way, it doesn't make up for the 100 point difference.


They are additional costs but the DPs point price is based on taking those extra things because otherwise you wouldn't ever buy him over a GD.
Sure you would, if cost was an issue. That's why they're priced seperately.


Either way, I would say the VL is on par with GDs and DP which are below par for what they cost. They are way too easy to kill for their point cost imo. No armour and just a 5++.
I'd say that, with the stat differences alone, he's below a GD and just about on a par with a DP - especially when Daemons get their alignment bonuses as well.

In all honesty though I've started to get used to the squishy GDs. They need a lot more managing that you'd expect but I guess I'm getting used to and enjoying babysitting them a bit more. I am planning to trying out a VL when I try my Skaven again, would be an interesting experiment.

Wesser
15-07-2014, 12:59
Skaven... So many things I find so much beyond silly that they somewhat annoy me..

- A Greater Daemon fit so badly with Skaven fluff that it ain't funny. I kind even think of a single piece of fluff with a Vermin lord appearance simply because it don't fit Skaven imagery

- No amount of fluff will make it anything but a hamsterwheel. Ha ha, we get it... now get rid of it! (sry doomwheel owners)

- Two kinds of catapult for a race that primarily fights among themselves in caves and tunnels? That was the best and fluffiest idea they had?


Also I don't know of any item called "Doomrocket"....

Sexiest_hero
15-07-2014, 14:48
Skaven build a nuke. Just about anything is fluffy for them.

EvanM
15-07-2014, 16:22
skaven are crazy, but i love them.

yes a daemon doesnt make much sense.... i like the option but as you guys are saying, hes a badly equipped, inflexible, daemon prince whos priced 100pts too much.

lots of skaven stuff is silly but the doomwheel is awesome so shut up :p the only thing is how the heck does it shoot 3 lightning cannon balls at whatever is closest :P that doesnt make much sense haha.

russellmoo
16-07-2014, 05:29
Skaven... So many things I find so much beyond silly that they somewhat annoy me..

- A Greater Daemon fit so badly with Skaven fluff that it ain't funny. I kind even think of a single piece of fluff with a Vermin lord appearance simply because it don't fit Skaven imagery

- No amount of fluff will make it anything but a hamsterwheel. Ha ha, we get it... now get rid of it! (sry doomwheel owners)

- Two kinds of catapult for a race that primarily fights among themselves in caves and tunnels? That was the best and fluffiest idea they had?


Also I don't know of any item called "Doomrocket"....

If you don't find any of this within the "fluff" of Skaven then you don't understand Skaven or the warhammer world-

The entire army is a twisted parody of humanity- they are an army of twisted, self centered, self serving, cowardly, and cunning creatures.

What better way to pay back humanity for caging rats and have them run around on a wheel then by taking the idea and turning it into a tool for the slaughter of humans, this trend has continued on into more and more creative ways to kill- the skaven are unfettered by any sort of moral or ethical issues and are willing to explore any forbidden path of knowledge.

This self centered race has created a god in its own image- just as the Chaos gods are the creations of the evil thoughts and desires of other races, the only difference is that the Skaven evil god- has a skaven body.

Nothing is beyond being twisted by the skaven- hence a cannon, becomes enfused with warp energy and evil magic to become the warp lightning cannon. A regular stone thrower is twisted in true skaven fashion into the plague claw catapult. Flagellants become plague monks and plague censor bearers, the list goes on with everything in the skaven army having a more normal, un-rat-like version in another army.

In short- true skaven fluff means that every unit in the skaven army book is a parody of something else in the Warhammer world.

Wesser
16-07-2014, 06:20
What better way to pay back humanity for caging rats and have them run around on a wheel then by taking the idea and turning it into a tool for the slaughter of humans, this trend has continued on into more and more creative ways to kill- the skaven are unfettered by any sort of moral or ethical issues and are willing to explore any forbidden path of knowledge.


In short- true skaven fluff means that every unit in the skaven army book is a parody of something else in the Warhammer world.


Well it seems the writers agree with you, because by that logic you can and will cram every sort of garbage into the Skaven book. As long as it's got warpstone boils it fits with fluff right?


There's a wealth of Skaven fluff out there in the form of the Queek, Thanquol and Gotrek & Felix novels among others. Now I haven't read the Thanquol series, but do Verminlords, Doomwheels, Lasercannonns, Catapults or Hellpits make an appearance?


No, because they fit so poorly with the fluff that it makes them stand out.. and not in a good way.

I could accept the Verminlord as a special character, but the rest is something that could and should be done better.


To hear you speak of the Doomwheel as "forbidden path of knowledge" made the coffee go down wrong. The thing that icks me most is that Skaven have so many wonderful concepts they could explore, and yet they went with the very worst...even the old Rat Tank would have been better..

EvanM
16-07-2014, 06:44
A rat steam tank is worse than the rat daemon.

Skaven are nuts but they are fun, even min maxed, whatever. Still crazy and fun to play

Borgomos
16-07-2014, 07:18
Well it seems the writers agree with you, because by that logic you can and will cram every sort of garbage into the Skaven book. As long as it's got warpstone boils it fits with fluff right?

There's a wealth of Skaven fluff out there in the form of the Queek, Thanquol and Gotrek & Felix novels among others. Now I haven't read the Thanquol series, but do Verminlords, Doomwheels, Lasercannonns, Catapults or Hellpits make an appearance?.

There is indeed a Doomwheel in the novel "Headtaker" and it was just fine. I thought the whole novel was quite good.

And to be honest, the Doomwheel model was what got me into Warhammer Fantasy and Skaven in particular. Much like Greenskins, Skaven are an army that has a humorous, satirical tone to it. I think the setting has enough "serious bad guys" with WoC, DoC and DE.

Its hard to take my army seriously when Mr. Headtaker carries around a trophy rack because he thinks the skulls are speaking to him. Charming fellow, that Queek..

EvanM
16-07-2014, 07:30
So my brother calls him "squeek" or "queef" whenever I take him against my brothers dwarves... hahaha

Josfer
16-07-2014, 08:56
There's a wealth of Skaven fluff out there in the form of the Queek, Thanquol and Gotrek & Felix novels among others. Now I haven't read the Thanquol series, but do Verminlords, Doomwheels, Lasercannonns, Catapults or Hellpits make an appearance?
In the Gotrek and Felix novels is a Doomwheel too as far as I remember. Aren't they at one point sewer guards and try to find some cultist leader and while going through the sewers encounter it (but hide)?

underscore
16-07-2014, 09:01
Being against Catapults, Storm Banners for an underground race I get... but Doomwheels, HPAs and Laser Cannons?? Your opinions never fail to confuse me, Wesser, what do you think Skaven are?

Malagor
16-07-2014, 09:22
There's a wealth of Skaven fluff out there in the form of the Queek, Thanquol and Gotrek & Felix novels among others. Now I haven't read the Thanquol series, but do Verminlords, Doomwheels, Lasercannonns, Catapults or Hellpits make an appearance?

I haven't finished reading Thanquol's doom but in the other Thanquol books none of them make an appearance.
Since the nature of the books is mostly about Thanquol being paranoid, scheming, running and hiding and occasional sapping a slave with warp lightning to make himself feel superior, mixed in with the occasional minor fights, having those added in wouldn't make much sense.
Mean in the second book, they went to lustria on boat after being smuggled there by some Bretonnian merchant, would be hard to hide a HPA or a doomwheel on a boat.
Thanquol's doom however is a bit larger in scale since they are fighting dwarfs in it so it's possible that they make a appearance towards the end.
And the verminlord makes sense that he hardly is mentioned, skaven is scared out of their minds by the thought of him and he only shows up rarely so having them mention or him showing up would be odd I suppose.

Personally I love the Doomwheel, almost everyone where I play love the doomwheel. They may not like the rules for it but they love the concept and model for it.
And I love the other units as well. They fit skaven.

Wesser
16-07-2014, 09:23
In the Gotrek and Felix novels is a Doomwheel too as far as I remember. Aren't they at one point sewer guards and try to find some cultist leader and while going through the sewers encounter it (but hide)?

A Doomwheel in a sewer? Gotrek hiding? They get hit by some poison glass globes I think

Josfer
16-07-2014, 12:36
Just found that while googling, can anyone with the book confirm (had them from the library years ago)?
http://www.rulit.net/books/daemonslayer-read-66065-8.html

There were no plague monks present, none of the mighty war engines that were the pride of his race. He would have liked a doomwheel or a screaming bell, but there had not been time to drag them here through the tunnels or over the rugged hills to this remote place
Daemonslayer about 11% in the book.

EvanM
16-07-2014, 18:59
Skaven stuff is just awesome. Don't complain! Skaven are equally screwy as HE or chaos with the slight change that they are unreliable.

HE get silent dudes with halberds that know the future and know that someone's gonna cast dwellers on them before they march into battle. Skaven can have a hamsterwheel that shoots lightning!