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EvanM
15-07-2014, 16:38
Does anyone run core as their primary offense? like empire state troops in a horde formation (as opposed to a bus just to tarpit something)

or like high elf spearmen horde of 50, clanrats in a horde as opposed to just a bus unit, dwarf warrior horde??

Metacarpi
15-07-2014, 17:09
My Daemon army core (29 Plaguebearers, 29 Daemonettes - each with herald, no Epidemius) is my main offensive element, but I do take a unit of 3 Beasts, which undoubtedly hit like a ton of bricks

ndphoto
15-07-2014, 17:25
I run a horde of 40 plague bearers as my core but I find they really need the support from beasts, soul grinder, nurglings etc to be effective.

baransiege
15-07-2014, 17:25
All the time, lots of armies have great core for offense.

For TK I use a horde of skeletons + tomb prince for 40 WS5 attacks, chariot units pretty extensively and spear armed horsemen for chaff clearing.

Dwarf core makes up the bulk of my Dwarf forces with a mixture of Sword + Shield and Greatweapons, not to mention all the missile troops.

For Beastmen Gor and Ungor are two of the primary offensive units in the army.

EvanM
15-07-2014, 18:05
hmm interesting. itd be nice if there was more like forces like that.

Ikari
15-07-2014, 18:53
Core S3 infantry units are never used as main offensive units. They just lack the hitting power. Even most S4 lack it, if they have just 1 attack per model. The +3 rank bonus is not enough to win a combat agains most offensive units (they score points by killing models) or agains most defensive units (they also have the +3 rank bonus). So, in the end, I think core S3 units (and most S4) are only useful as either cheap cannon fodder/chaff, or steadfast units with 3 or more additional ranks. In this category I would put gors, regular orks, imperial swordsmen, high elf spearmen, etc. Some other units, like hand weapon-shield longbeards, or imperial halberdiers hordes, would be between the offensive/defensive role, depending on how many ranks they have and which units are they fighting against.

boli
15-07-2014, 19:03
Stormvermin & silverhelms have both been used as my main offensive thrust. The fact they are in core is more of a bonus than a hindrance

Plague Lord
15-07-2014, 19:29
I like 30 corsairs in horde formation... but then again I'm a noob :(

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
15-07-2014, 20:17
Only certain armies even have that as a capability, and even then only certain units.


What's with all the focus on core today? Why are people having such an issue with this? Core is boooooooring for 99% of the books out there. It's just crap rank-and-file troops who won't kill squat and are mind-numbingly dreary to paint.

baransiege
15-07-2014, 20:24
Core S3 infantry units are never used as main offensive units. They just lack the hitting power. Even most S4 lack it, if they have just 1 attack per model. The +3 rank bonus is not enough to win a combat agains most offensive units (they score points by killing models) or agains most defensive units (they also have the +3 rank bonus). So, in the end, I think core S3 units (and most S4) are only useful as either cheap cannon fodder/chaff, or steadfast units with 3 or more additional ranks. In this category I would put gors, regular orks, imperial swordsmen, high elf spearmen, etc. Some other units, like hand weapon-shield longbeards, or imperial halberdiers hordes, would be between the offensive/defensive role, depending on how many ranks they have and which units are they fighting against.

I just don't get this mentality, mathmatically it doesn't hold weight. The difference between S3 and S4 is only 1 difference in wounds per 6 hits -so after you've already wiffed some of the attacks which brings the total numerical difference caused by the ratio down. Then an additional -1 to the armour save, which again is 1 out of 6 more wounds, but this doesn't affect ward saves, which then help to further normalise the difference in the two totals.

I see it used all the time as an argument against fielding TK skeletons. Well with Tomb Prince giving them WS5 that's heavily reducing your number of hits before the Strength difference even comes into effect.

You are also looking at individual combat results in isolation which is incorrect. It doesn't matter if the S4 unit is doing more damage to the S3 unit each turn if the S3 unit can (1) hold, and (2) slowly whittle down the S4 unit at a differential rate that starts to see them gain the advantage in the number of supporting attacks, which can lead to them then winning the combat after a few rounds. It's not an all or nothing.

yabbadabba
15-07-2014, 20:36
Core S3 infantry units are never used as main offensive units. They just lack the hitting power. Even most S4 lack it, if they have just 1 attack per model. The +3 rank bonus is not enough to win a combat agains most offensive units (they score points by killing models) or agains most defensive units (they also have the +3 rank bonus). So, in the end, I think core S3 units (and most S4) are only useful as either cheap cannon fodder/chaff, or steadfast units with 3 or more additional ranks. In this category I would put gors, regular orks, imperial swordsmen, high elf spearmen, etc. Some other units, like hand weapon-shield longbeards, or imperial halberdiers hordes, would be between the offensive/defensive role, depending on how many ranks they have and which units are they fighting against. See, while this might seem like sensible advice, it secretly lulls people into a false sense of panic.

Sure at the most competitve environments these S3 units might struggle, but I have played using Hordes at S3 and the sheer amount of attacks you can get in - more if you through in a WP hatred and/or you buff with +1 to hit, means that you will cause casualties, and enough to make a difference. The only units you struggle with are the high T high Save units, but there are better things within both armies to deal with those units. And the sheer number of basic S3 units means that for a lot of games, they are going up against like for like.

Makaber
15-07-2014, 21:01
Savage Orc Big 'Uns are fantastic as well, of course.

yabbadabba
15-07-2014, 21:05
Savage Orc Big 'Uns are fantastic as well, of course. I have heard they can be occasionally useful :eek:

Knifeparty
15-07-2014, 21:19
Core infantry's role like anything comes down to what it is and what it does. They aren't all tarpits but most of them are.

Generally speaking when building a list I have a saying "strength 3 doesn't win games". There are exceptions to the rule just like anything, but if you rely on strength 3 for anything out of the ordinary you're going to have a bad time.

Silverhelms, Savage Orcs and Chaos Warriors are perfect examples of units that can and do win combats.

Skeletons and Skaven Slaves are examples of unit that would be very hard pressed to win anything.

Dark Elves have a lot of synergy with their signature spell Power of Darkness that boosts the strength of the unit so pretty much any of their core could potentially be a light hammer unit. Same with Beastmen and their banner.

It all comes down to what you need and what the unit is intended to do. There's lots of cool combos out there, trying some stuff out often yields interesting results.

liddan
15-07-2014, 21:22
There are some really offensive core for sure.

Savage orc big 'uns, great weapon longbeards, chaos warriors, saurus, witch elves just to name a few.

Hard to say that chaos warriors are the "primary" offensive power with everything else they got though.

Josfer
15-07-2014, 21:51
I just don't get this mentality, mathmatically it doesn't hold weight. The difference between S3 and S4 is only 1 difference in wounds per 6 hits -so after you've already wiffed some of the attacks which brings the total numerical difference caused by the ratio down. Then an additional -1 to the armour save, which again is 1 out of 6 more wounds, but this doesn't affect ward saves, which then help to further normalise the difference in the two totals.

I see it used all the time as an argument against fielding TK skeletons. Well with Tomb Prince giving them WS5 that's heavily reducing your number of hits before the Strength difference even comes into effect.

You are also looking at individual combat results in isolation which is incorrect. It doesn't matter if the S4 unit is doing more damage to the S3 unit each turn if the S3 unit can (1) hold, and (2) slowly whittle down the S4 unit at a differential rate that starts to see them gain the advantage in the number of supporting attacks, which can lead to them then winning the combat after a few rounds. It's not an all or nothing.
The problem is, you don't look at the effect on the number of actual wounds. With S3 you wound T3 on 4+, so 50% wounds. With S4 you hit 67% and thus 1/3 more. Same goes with armor saves. If you face a 4+ AS, you get another 1/3 more wounds. Combine that (4/3 * 4/3) and you get nearly 100% increase in wounds (16 instead of 9 out of 36 hits). Now change this to S5 vs. S3 and you get 25 instead of 9 out of 36, so nearly three times as much.
Increase the toughness and armor and this gets even worse for S3 (T5 2+ guys are 1 out of 36 hits vs. 4 out of 36 hits from S4 and 9 out of 36 hits from S5).

And the numbers of attacks are nearly fixed. A 5 wide unit will probably get 10-15 attacks out, if you have 20 models or 30, so better make them count.

@Core: Warriors and trolls are quite ok, but rarely played (gun lines and avoidance lists suck).

russellmoo
15-07-2014, 23:16
The problem is, you don't look at the effect on the number of actual wounds. With S3 you wound T3 on 4+, so 50% wounds. With S4 you hit 67% and thus 1/3 more. Same goes with armor saves. If you face a 4+ AS, you get another 1/3 more wounds. Combine that (4/3 * 4/3) and you get nearly 100% increase in wounds (16 instead of 9 out of 36 hits). Now change this to S5 vs. S3 and you get 25 instead of 9 out of 36, so nearly three times as much.
Increase the toughness and armor and this gets even worse for S3 (T5 2+ guys are 1 out of 36 hits vs. 4 out of 36 hits from S4 and 9 out of 36 hits from S5).

And the numbers of attacks are nearly fixed. A 5 wide unit will probably get 10-15 attacks out, if you have 20 models or 30, so better make them count.

@Core: Warriors and trolls are quite ok, but rarely played (gun lines and avoidance lists suck).

In addition to all of this the other factor which tends to remove core from being the main hammer of an army is the need for armies to take anvil units. Some races have the option of either not needing an anvil (such as elves that play keep away the whole game) while a few others can use special or rare slots to serve as anvils (empire can use steam tanks for this and dwarfs have ironbreakers).

8th also tends to favor hitting power over static combat res- so most players try to keep their anvils cheap and spend their points on their hammers (core units tend to be cheaper then special and rare choices so core = anvil) - this is because if you are going to give up points it also tends to be because you lose and anvil unit, or chaff with players holding back and only committing their hammer units to try and win the game or get points-

datalink7
16-07-2014, 00:29
Plenty of armies have stellar core. Maybe even most?

Beastmen - Gors with XHW and the BSB with +1 strength banner are seen a lot
Bretonnia - Knights and Knights Errant are your normal hammers
Chaos Dwarves - Nothing super stellar here but the Dwarves are alright
Daemons of Chaos - Plaguebearers are great, and almost always seen.
Dark Elves - Witch Elves are amazingly good for their cost. Dark Riders, corsairs and xbowmen all solid. You could build a mostly core DE army and have it be competitive.
Dwarfs - Longbeards are a great hammer with Great Weapons, and in a gunline might be your main offensive power.
Empire - Not stellar here, though plenty run a huge block of Halberds with magic and warrior priest backup for a solid block.
High Elves - Silver Helms are great.
Lizardmen - Skink Swarms.
Ogre Kingdoms - Ironbreaker horde.
Orcs & Goblins - Savage Orcs are brutal.

Ok I don't feel like finishing. But there are only a few that actually have subpar options. Most have solid core choices and would do fine going above minimum core.

EvanM
16-07-2014, 06:30
Savage orc big uns are amazing... S4 frenzy 2hw and T4? yeah too good for that many points and core...

Lord Solar Plexus
16-07-2014, 11:04
Halberdiers can serve an offensive role to some extent. S4 with hatred and/or +1 to hit isn't too shabby. I wouldn't purposefully point them at something really killy with a similar amount of ranks of course but they're serviceable. My Spearmen with double Wyssan's and hatred (and once Wyssan's + Iceshard) gave a good account of themselves in the last tourney as well. I'm not saying you can or should rely on magic but this IS why we all take those wizards after all.


The problem is, you don't look at the effect on the number of actual wounds. With S3 you wound T3 on 4+, so 50% wounds. With S4 you hit 67% and thus 1/3 more.


Not true, I'm afraid. 16.67% is not a third, it's one sixth as he pointed out. You also don't *hit* any better; I assume that was a slip of tongue.

Skaven Slaves and Witch Elves are good examples of quantity having a quality of its own. Slaves in horde with Spears and/or Death Frenzy WILL kill stuff like really dead AND can have easily twice or thrice the ranks to run them down.

Josfer
16-07-2014, 13:14
16.67% is not a third, it's one sixth as he pointed out. You also don't *hit* any better; I assume that was a slip of tongue.
16.67% is one third of 50%. For example if I hit 6 attacks, I do 3 wounds with S3 and 4 wounds with S4, so I deal a third more wounds.

The "hit" wasn't meant to mean "to hit" in a roll in warhammer manner, but you aim for a target number and hit it like sales. Bad choice of words, sorry. With other words I meant "With S4 you get to 67% and thus 1/3 more".


Slaves in horde with Spears and/or Death Frenzy WILL kill stuff like really dead AND can have easily twice or thrice the ranks to run them down.
So you give them spears, go horde wide and then double or triple the ranks...that's like a 10-15 pt model you are fighting now (if you compare equal points), so either WS5 elves with light armor or heavily armored humans with big weapons or even worse dwarves with high T and armor. As the enemy is 5 wide, you'll get 7 files in CC with 4 attacks each means on average less than 3 dead. On the other hand you are hit on 3+, wound on 4+ or better and have no armor (if you give them shields we're talking 12-18 pt models like phoenix guard with ward save or chaos warriors with WS5, T4 and 4+ AS), so even with 15 attacks lose the same amount or more. Anything with only 10 attacks in that price category will at least have S5 and thus even go to 5+ wounds (I didn't check, maybe there are rare exceptions).

Death Frenzy is magic (and thus obviously pretty point effective) and has to be cast AND would be way better on something with higher S or WS, its effect gets even worse if you combine it with spears.

biccat
16-07-2014, 13:47
When I run Empire I take Halberds. With Hatred and +1 to hit they can do a significant amount of damage.

I don't know if they're my main damage dealing unit. I get the most points out of my cannons.

EvanM
16-07-2014, 18:55
Empire is different. Empire gets the BEST augmentative magic of any army, and that alone let's our state troops be an actual hammer. Stacking hatred, WP buffs which you can cast with IF and no miscast, the buff wagons, all the leadership buffs and the wizard augments like wyssan's or any lore of light spell and basically you have humans fighting like chaos warriors. It makes me happy :)

I play empire Skaven and high elves. Empire is the most tactical to play, Skaven the crazy fun weird one, and HE is just when I like being a prick.

copesh
16-07-2014, 22:29
I play HE and sometimes field a core of 50 seaguard with f/c - just the right size.
The entire point of the unit is volume of fire.
40 str 3 shots can do a lot of damage.

I sometimes add the Handmaiden for a bit of extra punch.

EvanM
17-07-2014, 01:10
I'm considering not running clanrats, just slaves with spears or shields (maybe not both) or even slings. Basically you get tons of guys which is awesome and you can save points for stormvermin/plague monks and other units.

If Skaven had the type of augmentative magic as empire then.... woahhh. that'd be scary.

Empire excells at boosting mediocre guys and it works. I don't find anything wrong with empire infantry, except that maybe they should be like 1/2 a point less per guy. Swordsmen are way better than people think they are, considering all the buffs we can give them (many offensive buffs but few defensive buff)

Lord Solar Plexus
17-07-2014, 04:48
16.67% is one third of 50%. For example if I hit 6 attacks, I do 3 wounds with S3 and 4 wounds with S4, so I deal a third more wounds.


You've got that confused I'm afraid. ;) 16.67% is one sixth. Ask yourself where those 16.67 % come from in the first place and you'll find that they relate to the number of hits, ie. potential wounds. But let's not mince words.



So you give them spears, go horde wide and then double or triple the ranks...that's like a 10-15 pt model you are fighting now (if you compare equal points), so either WS5 elves with light armor or heavily armored humans with big weapons or even worse dwarves with high T and armor.


I'm sorry, why? My example says nothing at all about the PPM or origin or the stats of their opponent. They could be fighting Archers, Goblins, Trolls or other Slaves. You cannot infer from total unit cost A that models B, C...n cost x points. That's simply impossible. And that's before we talk about the merits and shortfalls of equal point comparisons.

The same goes for additional shields (which btw are a completely useless investment when you have a spear): Equipping unit A with one option does not increase the quality of the opponents I'm afraid. If that was so, nobody in his right mind would ever take Marks. :)

I'm happy to be able to tell you that I already knew Death Frenzy was magic. ;) That doesn't change my statement that a unit under such a spell and additional attacks from horde and spears is pretty scary.



I play empire Skaven and high elves. Empire is the most tactical to play, Skaven the crazy fun weird one, and HE is just when I like being a prick.

Certainly not because of the core infantry.


We will have to politely disagree about that fun part in Skaven but never mind.

EvanM
17-07-2014, 05:44
skaven are fun. the core infantry is part of the army, yeah.... they are fun because of the magic we cast on them.

if you could have an army of all doomwheels.... well.... :D

Josfer
17-07-2014, 07:11
You've got that confused I'm afraid. ;) 16.67% is one sixth.
Of 100%. Not of 50%... Do you even read what I write or do you just instinctively react to "oh 16.67% is 1/6 of 100% so it has to be always 1/6"? Go to a calculater, type in 0.1667/0.5 and you'll get 0.33333333 which is a third (of 100%). And if I do 4 wounds instead of 3, I deal 1/3 more wounds, regardless of how many attacks I needed for that and regardless of the chance per attack increasing by 1/6. If I have a sixth of a cake and add another sixth, I doubled the number of pieces of cake and doubled the amount of cake. Doubling something is equal to increasing it by 100%.


Ask yourself where those 16.67 % come from in the first place and you'll find that they relate to the number of hits, ie. potential wounds. But let's not mince words.
We don't mince words, we look at different sides of the roll. You look at what comes in and I look at what goes out. If you have 15 hits and add something that increases your wounds by 1/6 you will deal 2.5 more wounds period. Is this a good investment if the upgrade costs 2 pts and the unit costs 10? You don't know. If the unit did only 2.5 wounds in the first place, it would be a good upgrade, if it did 10 it wouldn't.


I'm sorry, why? My example says nothing at all about the PPM or origin or the stats of their opponent. They could be fighting Archers, Goblins, Trolls or other Slaves. You cannot infer from total unit cost A that models B, C...n cost x points. That's simply impossible.
I restricted the example to 5 wide enemies, Archers (has anyone ever seen a slave block fight archers?), Goblines and Slaves will fight in hordes, single Trolls with a way smaller frontage.


And that's before we talk about the merits and shortfalls of equal point comparisons.
No, let's do exactly that. Because comparing a unit of double to tripple the points to another unit will nearly always make the bigger unit look good. Till now I've never seen a slave deathstar worth 1000 pts but others. If you fight goblins, how do you get to 2-3 times the number of ranks if your models cost 1.25 SS and goblins cost 1.5 SS??? Do you field your slaves in blocks of 200-300 (models not points)? Realistically you see a maximum of 100 slaves, in horde formation that's 10 ranks. Who brings less than 25 goblins in 5 wide to a fight and expect them to do anything but give away points?


That doesn't change my statement that a unit under such a spell and additional attacks from horde and spears is pretty scary.
While this is true, a) you said "and/or", not "and" (just stating for correctness) and b) my main point still stands, that anything else under such a spell is way more scary. Skaven clan rats and storm vermin are mostly fielded in horde formation too, because they are still cheap as **** AND need the additional attacks. Seriously, 5 wide storm vermin get 10 S4 attacks...how do you want to win combat with something like that? And what do you like to have from a cast increasing 3 WS4 S4 attacks to 5 on X front models or increasing 3-4 WS2 S3 attacks to 5-6 on the same number of front models? I give you that it's situational and sometimes slaves might draw/win a combat with it and lose without it, while the others either lose or win anyways, but mostly it's way better to cast it on other stuff. Even casting it on plague censer bearers will possibly be more beneficial as they only get 1 attack on a probably smaller front, but with S5 and hatred they make that one attack count.

Oogie boogie boss
17-07-2014, 15:31
For my Savage Orc army my Core are definitely my hammers. But then, tbf, the whole army is effectively a bag of hammers.......For my VC (when I have enough to actually have a game with, the no, my Core will absolutely not be hammers, lol. Skellies and ZOmbies really don't do the whole impact damage that well. My Grave Guard, Black Knights and Vampires are the damage dealers, the Core dead 'uns there to tarpit, provide bulk cause more Fear tests.

EvanM
17-07-2014, 16:07
empire core infantry is a hammer

just played a game last night: 50 stormvermin + Queek charged 42 halberdiers + BSB + Warrior Priest.
Because of hatred and getting reroll to wound and 5++ ward i all in all dealt 21 wounds and took 7 + 5 overkill points.

the unit buffs turn halberdiers into a massive blender lord!! :D

teclis_16
17-07-2014, 18:18
For my dwarf army i would say about 50% of my points are core. They have strong ranged, hand weapon and shield, and great weapons. They may lack magic and cavalry but they make up for it in close combat, ranged, and great core.

EvanM
17-07-2014, 19:50
dwarfs have exceptional core, you can give every model in your army a great weapon :p

if it was a battle of only core troops + characters i think dwarfs would have a shot at being the best army out there

Djekar
17-07-2014, 20:08
Core infantry is generally tarpits for me. Even if they are used as hammers it isn't the real "hammer" of my list, it is like a secondary hammer to deal with weakened units or other medium infantry. Usually though don't take core infantry for either roll, they are taken to be chaff or shooting units.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-07-2014, 20:43
Jeez, Josfer, come down. I'm saying that lotsa S3 attacks can be a scary prospect for many units, and I'm talking from experience. Last I checked I was *not* talking about Stormvermin formations, the best casting strategy for Skaven or 1,000 Slave units. That's all a bunch of Strawmen coming out of left field but I'll decline to dance with them.

---
Back on topic, my core infantry is usually a bus of Spearmen and a bunch of archers, so a tarpit, a bunker and some chaff. It's all S3, and it wins a lot of games. The Spears also serve to provide ranks and deny SF, so I suppose they're as much a hammer as my Knights or Demis. After all, neither could hold or break your run of the mill opposing unit on its own.

WhispersofBlood
17-07-2014, 21:17
You've got that confused I'm afraid. ;) 16.67% is one sixth. Ask yourself where those 16.67 % come from in the first place and you'll find that they relate to the number of hits, ie. potential wounds. But let's not mince words.


Which misses the whole point, even a 6+ armour save turns that a S3 wound into a further 1/6 less wounds. So if your S3 unit can generate 3 attacks for ever 1 S4 attack at the same Ws and I, then sure its paltry. How many units can generate 3 times the number of a S4 version? Empire Spearmen can't, usually you're looking at between 5 and 10 addition s3 attacks vs S4, and in the case of spears not when you charge.

Josfer
18-07-2014, 04:40
Jeez, Josfer, come down. I'm saying that lotsa S3 attacks can be a scary prospect for many units, and I'm talking from experience. Last I checked I was *not* talking about Stormvermin formations, the best casting strategy for Skaven or 1,000 Slave units. That's all a bunch of Strawmen coming out of left field but I'll decline to dance with them.
You're talking from experience where slaves in CC do anything but die slowly and tarpit the enemy?

Lord Solar Plexus
18-07-2014, 06:15
Which misses the whole point


No, it's spot on. You missed that we were talking about to wound, not AS. ;)



How many units can generate 3 times the number of a S4 version?

Is that a trick question or did you also miss completely which unit I was talking about in the first place?

Chicago Slim
22-07-2014, 12:48
So, short answer to the OP. As others have said: Yes, core infantry can provide an offensive element, and some armies have core units that are more obviously offensive than others (Ogres, Dwarfs, Greenskins, Lizardmen, and Chaos Warriors being among these).

I maintain that pretty much any army can choose to use core for an offensive element, develop a sound battle plan thereupon, and execute that battle plan. Doing so may challenge your skills in deployment and maneuver, as a player, but it is definitely not impossible.

Next week, I'm planning to field a Wood Elf army (much of it proxied) consisting of 4 hordes of Eternal Guard and a couple of characters. Despite being S3, these guys hit most opponents 8/9, are Armour Piercing, and get at least 3 ranks of attacks unless they've charged (which they don't often plan to do...) so they have some potential to generate wounds, and when they're in a bad matchup, they're Stubborn on a 9 (or better, if the general or BSB are around...) I have no idea how winning of a plan this will be, but I'm very much looking forward to the game. (This build is partly a reaction-- over-reaction, really-- to all the people who whine about Wood Elves only doing avoidance lists-- so, instead, I'm going to bring 0 shooters, and fill the table edge to edge with core guys who came to fight in hand-to-hand...)

duffybear1988
22-07-2014, 19:48
I run lots of handgunners supported by heavens magic in my empire army. Nobody likes to be removing whole units in each shooting phase, but my enemies often find themselves doing so.

EvanM
23-07-2014, 04:46
wood elves should have some bows dude....

hahaha great idea! i wish the hurricanum granted the +1 to hit to shooting too, but there is still magical solutions to getting empire shooting not to suck.

SpanielBear
23-07-2014, 06:44
So, short answer to the OP. As others have said: Yes, core infantry can provide an offensive element, and some armies have core units that are more obviously offensive than others (Ogres, Dwarfs, Greenskins, Lizardmen, and Chaos Warriors being among these).

I maintain that pretty much any army can choose to use core for an offensive element, develop a sound battle plan thereupon, and execute that battle plan. Doing so may challenge your skills in deployment and maneuver, as a player, but it is definitely not impossible.

Next week, I'm planning to field a Wood Elf army (much of it proxied) consisting of 4 hordes of Eternal Guard and a couple of characters. Despite being S3, these guys hit most opponents 8/9, are Armour Piercing, and get at least 3 ranks of attacks unless they've charged (which they don't often plan to do...) so they have some potential to generate wounds, and when they're in a bad matchup, they're Stubborn on a 9 (or better, if the general or BSB are around...) I have no idea how winning of a plan this will be, but I'm very much looking forward to the game. (This build is partly a reaction-- over-reaction, really-- to all the people who whine about Wood Elves only doing avoidance lists-- so, instead, I'm going to bring 0 shooters, and fill the table edge to edge with core guys who came to fight in hand-to-hand...)

If you can find the points, a lvl 4 shadow-weaver and a lvl 2 metal/beast-singer would increase the combat potential of your blocks massively.

rolly_321
23-07-2014, 09:07
17 Bulls with Iron fists!!! 52 Attacks, 51 wounds. 5+sv 6++parry. T4, S4. Impact hits if you get lucky. It's a hammer and an anvil all rolled up into one. Fills core requirement nicely at 2000points. Throw in a firebelly or a butcher and you can either throw out a breathweapon or buff the unit.

SpanielBear: That list sounds fun and kudos for trying it out. I think the problem you will face is if your opponent brings ranged weapons or direct damage spells. I think if you get some wild riders or warhawks or riders in there you will benefit from having that added reach. A defensive play style that has no ranged elements (i count fast combat units as your range in this circumstance) is going to struggle against other defensive or combined arms forces who will force you to come to them.

SpanielBear
23-07-2014, 12:03
17 Bulls with Iron fists!!! 52 Attacks, 51 wounds. 5+sv 6++parry. T4, S4. Impact hits if you get lucky. It's a hammer and an anvil all rolled up into one. Fills core requirement nicely at 2000points. Throw in a firebelly or a butcher and you can either throw out a breathweapon or buff the unit.

SpanielBear: That list sounds fun and kudos for trying it out. I think the problem you will face is if your opponent brings ranged weapons or direct damage spells. I think if you get some wild riders or warhawks or riders in there you will benefit from having that added reach. A defensive play style that has no ranged elements (i count fast combat units as your range in this circumstance) is going to struggle against other defensive or combined arms forces who will force you to come to them.

The list isn't mine, it's Chicago Slim's. I love magic arrows too much to go all eternal guard! That said, WE Glade Guard, while not necessarily a hammer can certainly be a scalpel. And ASF is always fun to have- I've had a unit of 10 glade guard beat up a whight king in CC before now. Pure fluke, but they won me the game!

I agree that the above list could use a little mobile threat. But it looks so cool and fluffy, that in all honesty I feel it should include a dragon. Because of COOL.

PaulGreatrix
31-07-2014, 20:54
Most would scoff at the mention of Beastmen Gor as kick ass core, but built right, they can win games. As mention the +1S banner makes them S4 T4, and their primal fury gives them almost permanent hated. All it takes is 1 wildform (and I take 3 shamans who can cast it per turn) and youre talking about a six-wide unit at S5 T5, 16 attacks, with hatred.

DrMooreFlava
01-08-2014, 03:55
Core S3 infantry units are never used as main offensive units. They just lack the hitting power. Even most S4 lack it, if they have just 1 attack per model. The +3 rank bonus is not enough to win a combat agains most offensive units (they score points by killing models) or agains most defensive units (they also have the +3 rank bonus). So, in the end, I think core S3 units (and most S4) are only useful as either cheap cannon fodder/chaff, or steadfast units with 3 or more additional ranks. In this category I would put gors, regular orks, imperial swordsmen, high elf spearmen, etc. Some other units, like hand weapon-shield longbeards, or imperial halberdiers hordes, would be between the offensive/defensive role, depending on how many ranks they have and which units are they fighting against.

Can tell 40k is your main. Orks? Imperial? Who Dat?

On topic, a unit becomes offensive when it has a chance to take advantage of the weakness of another opposing unit. It has nothing to do with its base stats. Especially when your army relies upon magical buffs. A low stat unit can win you a battle if You give them the opportunity by putting them in the right time and place to make the critical difference. Any core unit can be an offensive unit if you play it correctly. Of course high stat lined core units like ironguts, long beards with GWs, savage orc big-uns, chaos warriors, saurus etc are the top end of offensive core units. The players that underestimate low stat line core units are the players that pay the price.

DrMooreFlava
01-08-2014, 04:12
Only certain armies even have that as a capability, and even then only certain units.


What's with all the focus on core today? Why are people having such an issue with this? Core is boooooooring for 99% of the books out there. It's just crap rank-and-file troops who won't kill squat and are mind-numbingly dreary to paint.


100% disagree.

I buy armies based on Core, You have to include them so you better love them otherwise you will never give them respect on the table in front of your opponent.

On a painting note, Core units are the best chance you have to show off your awesome paint schemes because most core units are great templates to create paint schemes to build off of with your special and rares. Nothing is more eye candy to me than a great paint scheme on a large block of core infantry, it shows me that my opponent is a dedicated hobbyist and respects every model in his army (These are the people to be weary of on the battle field). Not to mention the fact that a unit of fully painted core infantry looks WAY more intimidating than an unpainted block of grey matter.

And yes, some core units aren't super killy which means you need to give them extra love because they are the models who die for you. They die to ensure your victory, nobody deserves more honor than the dead.

"Open your mind" -Quato in the original Total Recall

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-08-2014, 06:06
100% disagree.

I buy armies based on Core, You have to include them so you better love them otherwise you will never give them respect on the table in front of your opponent.

On a painting note, Core units are the best chance you have to show off your awesome paint schemes because most core units are great templates to create paint schemes to build off of with your special and rares. Nothing is more eye candy to me than a great paint scheme on a large block of core infantry, it shows me that my opponent is a dedicated hobbyist and respects every model in his army (These are the people to be weary of on the battle field). Not to mention the fact that a unit of fully painted core infantry looks WAY more intimidating than an unpainted block of grey matter.

And yes, some core units aren't super killy which means you need to give them extra love because they are the models who die for you. They die to ensure your victory, nobody deserves more honor than the dead.

"Open your mind" -Quato in the original Total Recall

Oh from a painting perspective absolutely. My 100 skeletons look boss on the table. But from a gaming perspective their only purpose is to die...hopefully slowly. They have a role but not an exciting one.

DrMooreFlava
01-08-2014, 06:41
Exciting is entirely a matter of opinion. Some people think warhammer is exciting, some think it is incredibly boring. Putting 100 skeletons on the table top should make it exciting for everyone involved regardless of their purpose. Even then, wouldn't it be exciting to see if your opponent can cut through all of em and slay the vampire in time to save the fair brettonian maiden or something cute like that? Part of the fun of warhammer is creating the fun off of the table top, through sportsmanship and role playing.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 10:52
Exciting is entirely a matter of opinion. Some people think warhammer is exciting, some think it is incredibly boring. Putting 100 skeletons on the table top should make it exciting for everyone involved regardless of their purpose. Even then, wouldn't it be exciting to see if your opponent can cut through all of em and slay the vampire in time to save the fair brettonian maiden or something cute like that? Part of the fun of warhammer is creating the fun off of the table top, through sportsmanship and role playing.

100% agree

Lord Solar Plexus
01-08-2014, 11:33
Completely agree with the good Doctor as well. Even S3 infantry can become offensive in the right circumstances. There're just so many factors in there. For example, I had a Stank fighting quite a lot of Temple Guard, and while they had trouble wounding me, I wasn't getting anywhere either. A bus of Spearmen with a character in the flank however did the job and broke the stalemate, as the static CR and the odd wound overcame the comparatively few attacks to the side and broke steadfast.

And last game, my 10 archers killed a unit in close combat. :) Granted, that was a rear charge into 3 Vampire dogs but at first it didn't even occur to me to actually charge anything with this unit...so, appearances can be deceiving, and often there's something lower down on the food chain.

baransiege
01-08-2014, 11:44
Which misses the whole point, even a 6+ armour save turns that a S3 wound into a further 1/6 less wounds. So if your S3 unit can generate 3 attacks for ever 1 S4 attack at the same Ws and I, then sure its paltry. How many units can generate 3 times the number of a S4 version? Empire Spearmen can't, usually you're looking at between 5 and 10 addition s3 attacks vs S4, and in the case of spears not when you charge.
B
But at each stage you are the ratio difference is affecting a smaller and smaller pool, which means that the final numerical difference between the two ratios continues to shrink. Which is why claiming a 1/3 difference is wrong on so many levels.