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Sexiest_hero
16-07-2014, 22:20
I just wanted to drop a doom bull set up I used to swat down two sets of Nurgle DPs and Chimeras.

Doombull

Sword of striking

Rune of the true beast

glittering scales

pigeon plucker pendant

featherfoe torc

great weapon. (This part was actually illegal)

He's at +1 to hit while giving the chimera and DP -2 to hit him. They must also reroll successful hits against him and his unit, while he is sporting a 5+ ward against them. I wonder if giving the featherfoe torc to another hero would have been helpful but anyways. The DP swings first and at better WS but the DB swings at str8 (no armor saves) with one more attack while having one more wound. I didn't just help with chaos, but with Cav, chariots, ridden monsters and warbeasts, and with str 8 he was the anti mounted armor monster Beastmen needed. I walked out 3-0-0 (facing 2 WoC and one Ogre list). Maybe it was a fluke, maybe i got lucky. Either way I just wanted to share in the hopes that it helps.

Rudra34
16-07-2014, 22:44
Can't use the great weapon if you have the sword of striking. Unless it was somehow destroyed, you would always use the magic weapon at strength 6.

Most doombull builds are pretty insane. Even this one, which is sub-optimal in most situations, is still a breast in combat.


Edit: BEAST* in combat. Not changing it though, as the typo is epic.

datalink7
16-07-2014, 22:49
Yeah the GW used with Sword of Striking is illegal.

I still think the standard Doombull build is probably the best. But like Rudra said, most will do damage.

Sexiest_hero
17-07-2014, 00:13
You know I didn't even think about that. I'd lose the GW before the sword. I still think it would work pretty well. one could drop the GW and save points for something else.

decker_cky
17-07-2014, 05:35
Most doombull builds are pretty insane. Even this one, which is sub-optimal in most situations, is still a breast in combat.


Edit: BEAST* in combat. Not changing it though, as the typo is epic.

Doombulls are always big fat boobs anyways.

Most doombulls should swat any chimeras they deal with. Very good doombull builds can get into 40/60 situations against nurgle daemon princes where the doombull can whittle down the daemon prince slowly.

Josfer
17-07-2014, 08:20
Most Nurgle DPs I see in lists have the sword of striking and a 1+ AS with charmed shield. Lots of them have the breath weapon.
With sword of striking he hits on 4+ (1/2) rerolling hits (->1/4) wounding on 3+ (->1/6) against zero armor and 5++ resulting in 1/9 wounds per attack.
You hit on 4+ (50%, nurgle and sword cancel out), wound on 3+ (->1/3), against a 4+ AS (-> 1/6) and 5++ resulting too in 1/9 wounds per attack.
The doombull has a wound more, but that's nearly canceled out with the charmed shield.
The breath weapon hits automatically and just has to wound and pass the ward save resulting in 1/3*2/3*2D6 so 0.5-2.666 wounds.
Charmed shield and breath weapon combined are a sure way to lose frenzy and you aren't unbreakable, while the DP is.
And the DP has soul feeder, so any wound he does has 1/6 chance to give him another wound.
And the DP has lore of nurgle casting, so each time he casts a spell he has a 1/6 chance of getting +1W +1T. Lore of nurgle has plenty of augments and hexes, so he'll cast while in CC. With increasing T your chances get worse and worse.

All in all I have to say for a "cheese-eater" build, that's really tailored against the DP, your chances are quite slim to come out on top (given you make a legal build. The illegal build is obviously quite good ^^).

pinktaco
17-07-2014, 08:30
The other issue is how this build suck against anything else.

decker_cky
17-07-2014, 14:02
You could just take the typical ramhorn doombull with the sword of striking instead of the sword of swift slaying. With all the ASF out there these days, it may actually be better to do that build. Can fit the other trickster's shard on there too.

Daemon prince has 5 attacks hitting on a 2+, wounding on a 3+, saved on a 4 with reroll: 0.69 wounds per turn

Doombull starts with 6 attacks, hits on 4+, wounds on 3+, armour save of 4+ and ward save of 5+, rerolling successful ward saves: 1.33 wounds per turn.

Charmed shield reduces that by 5/6 of an attack the first round (unless the doombull somehow charges, in which case he has impact hits too making things worse for the daemon prince). That only reduces the total by 0.185 wounds.

Flaming breath let's be generous and say it rolls 12 hits: 1/3 wound. 1/36 get through the doombull's rerollable armour save for a total of 0.11 wounds.

Now remember that for every armour save the doombull makes, it gains an attack.

Sword of striking + Other trickster's shard actually makes for a decenty favourable matchup for the doombull. I hadn't considered that particular build before.

It's not 100% ideal for chaff, but it still does very good against most things (including being able to tear apart witch elves + caudron so long as they don't get mindrazor).

TheRipper
18-07-2014, 02:39
Just have your Cygor drop a rock on the DPs head! Duh! :p

Sexiest_hero
18-07-2014, 02:57
I thought about the cygor, but he'd only get two rocks off before everything is in combat and he'll miss and be useless the rest of the game. I still sag give the DB build a try (minus the illegal gw) and see how he does. He isn't that bad against any monsters or cav,, or MC. All things you see plenty of.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
18-07-2014, 03:09
As cool as the Ramhorn doombull is, it's actually not the most useful build. He'll chew through a unit of witch elves no sweat, but he has troubles punching through armour and has no ward save. I'd rather have a 1+4++ doombull with a GW and OTS.

...though I would ACTUALLY rather have no doombull at all, since minotaurs are awful. They can break stuff but can't run it down to earn you points.

Minigiant
19-07-2014, 21:44
Sorry could someone explain exactly what the ramhorn is exactly

Malagor
20-07-2014, 00:22
It's a helmet that gives +1 to armor and makes it that for each armor save the wearer passes , the wearer gets to make a extra attack at the wielder's base strength which for the doombull is downright nasty since he is S6.

Sexiest_hero
20-07-2014, 04:19
It's one of the best items ever, while not being broken. It's the perfect Item.

Vulgarsty
21-07-2014, 20:20
Okay, its a 348 point lord with no ward or regen, and very vulnerable to searing doom and can be kited thanks to Frenzy. Its the thing chaos warriors of khorne with two hand weapons were born to fear

1 Doombull, 348 pts (Berserk Rage; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Causes Fear; Frenzy; Stomp)
WS6, S6, T5, Wo5, I5, A5(6), LD8, 1+Sv
1 Sword of Striking (+1 to Hit)
1 Ramhorn Helm (+1AS, immediate attack on making a save)
1 Dawnstone (re-roll failed armour saves)
1 The Other Trickster's Shard (opponents re-roll successful wards)
1 Gnarled Hide (5+ scaly skin)

Against a horde that (admittedly optimum enemy) he would still be alive after turn 40...If he charged on his turn 1, he would have killed over 85 of them by the end of turn 6.... when he may have suffered 2 wounds - if he was unlucky.

Malagor
21-07-2014, 20:28
I always go for the ASF weapon and 4+ ward save(and ramhorn helm). He just doesn't die which is more then I can say for his minotaur buddies.
Considering how easy he wins combat, he gets up to maximum attacks very quickly in my games and once he gets to max, with re-rolls it's just insanity.
I never had much problem with his frenzy tho.

Just Tony
21-07-2014, 21:43
This thread makes me really miss the Beasts of Chaos list. Such a great build option there, and Minotaurs as core. Gorgeous.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
21-07-2014, 23:20
It's a helmet that gives +1 to armor and makes it that for each armor save the wearer passes , the wearer gets to make a extra attack at the wielder's base strength which for the doombull is downright nasty since he is S6.

He's nasty, but only under optimal matchups. It's too easy to mitigate his attacks and punk him through Combat Res. That and he's stuck inside a Minotaur delivery bus, which are overcosted and kind of crappy (frenzied and can only pursue d6).

You're better off making him S8 so that he can mulch armoured targets like demis, crushers, and steam tanks that the army lacks many non-magical options for. That or go with a beastlord, who gives you better leadership and isn't as vulnerable.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
21-07-2014, 23:21
It's a helmet that gives +1 to armor and makes it that for each armor save the wearer passes , the wearer gets to make a extra attack at the wielder's base strength which for the doombull is downright nasty since he is S6.

He's nasty, but only under optimal matchups. It's too easy to mitigate his attacks and punk him through Combat Res. That and he's stuck inside a Minotaur delivery bus, which are overcosted and kind of crappy (frenzied and can only pursue d6).

You're better off making him S8 so that he can mulch armoured targets like demis, crushers, and steam tanks that the army lacks many non-magical options for. That or go with a beastlord, who gives you better leadership and isn't as vulnerable.

Josfer
22-07-2014, 04:50
348 pts that really like to drown in troll puke ^^

And making im S8 won't help that much because his ramhorn helms attacks don't benefit from additional S and that should be his main source of attacks.

Malagor
22-07-2014, 06:31
He's nasty, but only under optimal matchups. It's too easy to mitigate his attacks and punk him through Combat Res. That and he's stuck inside a Minotaur delivery bus, which are overcosted and kind of crappy (frenzied and can only pursue d6).

You're better off making him S8 so that he can mulch armoured targets like demis, crushers, and steam tanks that the army lacks many non-magical options for. That or go with a beastlord, who gives you better leadership and isn't as vulnerable.
Not many Empire players where I'm at and crushers my doombull has faced and he destroyed them.
I charged a unit of 3 crushers, did 1 wound with the impact hits, ASF and already been fed with warhounds so he had 7 attacks, hit 6 of the attacks, all 6 wounded, 5 wound stayed so two of them was already out of of the game before they had a chance to strike, crusher attacked the doombull and did 2 wounds, one I got with armor save and caused a wound back from ramhorn helm which he failed his save with and the other I got with the wardsave, the minotaurs took take care of the remaining wounds on the crusher.
I can't remember what I faced but I have only lost a round of combat with my doombull and his minos once but they held and won it again the next round and the frenzy feeding started again. Won the fight too.
I do agree that the minos are over-priced but with additional hand weapons they too tend to shred most units.

DeaNos
22-07-2014, 10:44
Would u bother buffing this guy with lore of beasts? Or using those kind of spells on another unit/character?

Malagor
22-07-2014, 12:50
I see nothing wrong with wyssans or savage beasts on him. More S is never a bad thing.

DeaNos
22-07-2014, 23:07
Trying to decide whether VC or beast men are my army of choice in an upcoming campaign and was wondering how does this guy fair against a blender lord?

Sexiest_hero
23-07-2014, 00:30
Trolls don't bother the doom bull one bit, you'll never get enough pukes to drown him and get the trolls smashed in return. you are wounding on fours? with 6 trolls if you horded them. The Doombull almost wins by himself on the charge, and very much so in any unit. The way to kill the doombull is combat res. I've only lost the ramhorn by getting a bad frenzy roll and flanked combat wise. Oh and a kerpper kills him constantly.

Malagor
23-07-2014, 08:00
Trolls are actually a bit of an issue. Doombulls are great against things with armor something Trolls don't have.
Regen is a tough nut to crack unless you list-tailor.

Sexiest_hero
23-07-2014, 18:30
Trolls arn't an issue with me. Throgg on the other hand gets the Gor horde.
I hate throgg.

Josfer
24-07-2014, 13:21
In a horde it's 9 troll pukes on autohit, wound on 4+, ignore armor, resulting in 4.5 wounds. Not certain, but quite a big chance to kill him.
Add in throgg with 2d6 puke attacks and you can say bye bye doombull.

He doesn't get any back hits for passing armor rolls, only has a maximum of 10 attacks+3 impact hits on 2+, 3+, 0+/4++, -> 3.7 wounds, so barely kills one troll (IF you have gathered 5 frenzy attacks). Throgg has T5 W4 so will be wound only on 4+ and probably not die (but at least a good chance...again IF you have gathered 5 frenzy attacks). You better have a good unit.
Everything but Ungors are autohit too, wound on 3+, no armor so the remaining 9 attacks deal another 6 (7.5 vs. ungors). So you're looking at 15 CR on the troll side, while the doombull did 4 and the unit now has to come up with 7 (given you charged and have 3 ranks). Now this is possible with buffed up minotaurs for example, but quite unlikely.

To be fair, a troll horde with throgg is nearly 800 pts. So in an equal points comparison, you WILL have a good unit ^^

Sexiest_hero
24-07-2014, 18:51
Again I hate throgg. Also how are you getting 9 hits? I'm thinking the Doombull has a big enough base to contact two trolls if he in in the corner of the unit.for 800 points if I HAD to run him into throgg I'm sure him in a bestigor horde with the flaming banner. I would challenge out Throgg with the DB because that would be the smart thing to do. I believe the DB wins that fight (maybe) so Throgg goes to the back or risks being killed. I think flaming bestigor frenzied horde wins over the trolls. I've seen the fight won with bestigor on a OnG troll horde.

Rudra34
24-07-2014, 20:08
They get nine because it's assumed that the doombull if fighting on his own, not in a unit. Also, I would think twice before challenging Trogg with a doombull. 2d6 vomits and a slew of high-strength attacks will wreck most bull builds. If you don't kill him first, then you have a good chance of getting killed.

Sexiest_hero
24-07-2014, 21:14
Can he vomit and attack? Also I thought we were talking about 800 point unit vs and 800 point unit. I'd have to see the match on throgg vs a ramhorn DB. I'm not so sure throgg wins that, I think it goes 50/50.

Josfer
24-07-2014, 21:17
In case of a Bestigor herd with the doombull on the corner, the trolls will not kill the doombull, but just win combat. 17 kills on bestigors results in 18 alive who will have 26 attacks dealing 14.5 wounds, while the doombull either challenges throgg and loses (3.5 wounds vs. 4) or doesn't (4.4 wounds) and throgg kills more bestigors (4.7 puke breath+2.2=6.9) decreasing their CR and increasing the troll ones. Ranks are the same, a banner, no musician or else you'll have a model less, anyways you probably lose combat by at least 1 (if you challenge), lose frenzy and even if you stay, next round the trolls kill nearly everything but the doombull and he needs snake eyes to not run like a little girl.
Your best bet would be to have a bestigor champion challenge throgg. This way you wouldn't ever kill him, but remove about one CR from him through overkill increasing your chances to eventually still win combat. If you don't, tough luck, next turn throgg and his boys will go to town with the survivors (as said, besides the doombull who'll run).

I dropped the 4 accumulated frenzy charges and went with 1 and only took 2 impact hits into account as they are the statistical average. And that's if you are on the charge at all. With a higher M the trolls have bigger chances to make it.

My biggest question: Is this tailored or is the flaming banner normal for such a unit? It's your saving grace and your only chance to win this with a chunk of luck.

Josfer
24-07-2014, 21:58
Can he vomit and attack?
Yes. He has a S5 breath weapon that ignores armor.


I'd have to see the match on throgg vs a ramhorn DB. I'm not so sure throgg wins that, I think it goes 50/50.
Always puking in a one on one with no flaming, the DB loses horribly (1.75 wounds vs. 4). And that includes the DB getting the charge. In the following rounds, Throgg doesn't have his breath weapon anymore and it comes to a 50/50 if he kills the DB, while the DB lost frenzy and impact hits, dealing only 1,39 wounds. So Throgg has about 1 try giving him a 50/50 chance to win the combat through kill.

BUT: Using his WS5 S8 A5 he nearly instantly kills the DB in combination with the breath weapon (4.95 wounds) while having a tiny chance to grant the DB another attack (for 28% wound chance). IF the DB survives he will surely kill him next round.

Add to that, Throgg is only 195 pts, while the DB is 345 and every time he passes 2 regeneration throws in a phase, he rolls for eye of the gods. This isn't that unlikely.
Interesting fact: Turning into a DP removes all the extra rules (so regen), but equipment stays and he even gets a mark (...of nurgle. Or maybe slaanesh to kill the armor save completely) and WS9 and I8 and 5++ and terror and unbreakable. The new I (in my interpretation) results in him not being able to attack this turn (but unbreakable), he probably didn't use his now lost breath weapon, so has to kill the DB in the old fashioned way which will be probable but not super save.

Sexiest_hero
24-07-2014, 22:19
I run mines with the flaming bannor then add a bsb with another banner but didn't want to overload with heroes to seem like I favor the DB unit. I see a lot of people run the Standard of discipline (I don't as I don't usually have to worry about running with frenzy. I did not however know throgg matched up so well with the DB. I usually throw huge gor blocks and debuffs at him. I hate throgg even more now.

Josfer
25-07-2014, 05:08
It`s in a vacuum anyways, so why not go for more realism. What BSB configuration would you add to your unit?

Malagor
25-07-2014, 06:33
There is only 1 banner that goes with the BSB and that's the Beast banner that gives the unit +1 in S.
It's a sad state but it's the best banner for Beastmen hands down.

Sexiest_hero
25-07-2014, 07:25
Yes the 206 beast banner on the BSB and the flaming banner on the unit itself.the lord and hero cost over 500 themselves at that point so you are looking about about 250 points of bestigor tops.

Josfer
25-07-2014, 09:40
Yes the 206 beast banner on the BSB and the flaming banner on the unit itself.the lord and hero cost over 500 themselves at that point so you are looking about about 250 points of bestigor tops.
Then you'll have no one left to use the +1S, but the BSB, the DB and...maybe 3 Besties?

Sexiest_hero
25-07-2014, 10:20
indeed I'm not sure the bsb would make much of a difference as the bestigor swing last. I'd just toss gor hords at the trolls and hope for a good magic roll. Also I hate throgg.