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Minigiant
17-07-2014, 09:23
What i am asking is what army has the most competitive Skew list

By Skew list i mean an army list that completely goes against the so called optimized list for the army book

I will give you an example

Standard Vampire Count builds:

Dual Terrorgheists
Black Knight Bus

Then there is there Skew list:

http://blog.skaveninaz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Matt-R.-2500-VC-List.pdf

So i ask again what is the most competitive Skew List

Scammel
17-07-2014, 09:27
Not really sure what you're looking for. Many armies have multiple builds with one typically standing out from amongst the others - I think in the case of most if not all books any and all variants have been discovered and discussed to death.

Sanai
17-07-2014, 09:57
I don't think that first list is really skewed at all- Terrorgheists and Black Knights have always been accepted in the current edition as pretty competitive choices. That second list however is very unusual- while its not unusual to see one or two mortis engines in a list, that many zombies and spirit hosts is pretty rare (especially as zombies are a good way to basically hand your opponent combat wins on a silver platter). Not to mention that is a lot of characters, even for a VC list.

Snake1311
17-07-2014, 10:10
Looking at the "skew" list you posted, I don't think you're following your own advice particularly well :P

If you are looking for alternative builds, there's loads of them.
If you are looking for lists consisting from only the worst units in a given book, its probably Deamons. The deamonic special rules make even the least effective choices reasonable, at least compared to the jank picks from other books.

Minigiant
17-07-2014, 10:18
Looking at the "skew" list you posted, I don't think you're following your own advice particularly well :P

Whats my own advice? I havent posted any of my advice

Snake1311
17-07-2014, 11:12
You exmaple list doesn't "completely" go against the optimized list. More than half the units in there are ones which see use in top lists, which makes it very confusing to understand what it is that you are actually asking.

Minigiant
17-07-2014, 12:27
You exmaple list doesn't "completely" go against the optimized list. More than half the units in there are ones which see use in top lists, which makes it very confusing to understand what it is that you are actually asking.

Im sorry you cant see it but i think its pretty clear. Its a competitive list that doesnt fall into one of the standard builds

biccat
17-07-2014, 13:08
O&G. There is so much variability in the list.

A goblin gunline is really, really good.

Snake1311
17-07-2014, 14:17
Im sorry you cant see it but i think its pretty clear. Its a competitive list that doesnt fall into one of the standard builds

I think you are the one that can't see the big picture.

A list that doesn't fall into one of the standard builds but is successful becomes a standard build, as people start replicating it.

There is no such thing as "Bob's amazing list" that Bob continuously wins tournaments with but only he uses.

WhispersofBlood
17-07-2014, 15:16
I don't think that first list is really skewed at all- Terrorgheists and Black Knights have always been accepted in the current edition as pretty competitive choices. That second list however is very unusual- while its not unusual to see one or two mortis engines in a list, that many zombies and spirit hosts is pretty rare (especially as zombies are a good way to basically hand your opponent combat wins on a silver platter). Not to mention that is a lot of characters, even for a VC list.

I can see the design behind it, large units with regen that can be raised back extremely efficiently, scream into combat, and Vargeist pick up the scraps, looking for small-medium consistent wins. Looks boring as hell to play though.

Most net builds are designed to be able to score 20-0 wins, in an attempt to win the event. Doesn't mean they are the best list, or that most players can even play such a list. Its far more important to write a list that matches your style of battle and instincts than match some idealized notion of efficiency from the internet.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-07-2014, 15:31
The BK bus + double TG list isn't really a skew list so much as it is an ANTI-skew list, against the most popular and competitive skew out there : 1+ armour spam. It's very, very difficult to deal with 1+ saves unless you brought the tools, and for the VC those tools are blender lords and terrorgheists. Simple as that.

Other popular skew lists: horde spam (OnG, DE), troll spam (OnG, WoC), air force (lizardmen), flying circus (WoC, vampires), monster mash (DE, TK, LM), cloud lists (LM, WE), fastcav avoidance (DE, WE), magic heavy (TK, Empire, LM, Beastmen).

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-07-2014, 15:34
I can see the design behind it, large units with regen that can be raised back extremely efficiently, scream into combat, and Vargeist pick up the scraps, looking for small-medium consistent wins. Looks boring as hell to play though.

Most net builds are designed to be able to score 20-0 wins, in an attempt to win the event. Doesn't mean they are the best list, or that most players can even play such a list. Its far more important to write a list that matches your style of battle and instincts than match some idealized notion of efficiency from the internet.

I would say that they're more designed for an environment of 20-0 play period, with scenarios closer to straight battlelines. When you play W-L-D with BRB scenarios (somewhat modified) the meta changes quite dramatically.

WhispersofBlood
17-07-2014, 16:19
I would say that they're more designed for an environment of 20-0 play period, with scenarios closer to straight battlelines. When you play W-L-D with BRB scenarios (somewhat modified) the meta changes quite dramatically.

If you play in a W/L/D environment point denial becomes more important than killing power in a straight competitive sense, since 300-500 points is relatively easy to claim if you aren't giving much away. Which is why I like the victory conditions in the BRB so much. Such a small margin of victory actually encourage you to go for it since its basically impossible to not have at least 100 points of vulnerable models due to the 3 units minimum.

Mozzamanx
17-07-2014, 17:29
The problem with finding 'skew lists' is that they are only skewed until they win enough times to become the new netlist. Pretty much by definition, a skew list that is powerful is no longer a skew list, it is simply an alternate build for the army.

In an effort to be at least slightly helpful though:
- Dwarfen Air Force is probably a contender. Take 6 Gyrocopters and bask in the total removal of all enemy chaff and hordes under your constant bombardments of bombs and flame templates. Enjoy redirecting your enemy deathstar repeatedly while shelling it with artillery, and your enemies troubles with removing a T5/3W/4+ model that is still only fodder to you. It's not even enormously expensive; The whole package is 540pts and can be bolted onto an existing army without much trouble.
- Mono-God Daemon lists? Nurgle is the one that everyone knows about, but Slaanesh seems to be gathering some momentum as well. I don't know if these are skew lists as much as fluffy ones, but spamming so much specialisation into endurance/speed/shooting/failing is bound to introduce some rock-paper-scissors matchups at the very least.

gingersmali
17-07-2014, 17:30
yer i think you need to define "skew" better.

I'd say skew mean does one thing, but only thing well. So i'd say the all shooting wood elves, the chariot monster mash WoC list, DE fast cav list, all tzeetch demons and dwarf gunline. a lot of popular build a skewed to one phase or type of troops.

If by skew you mean non-standard, i think snake hit it on the head list that are knownto do well become standard.

Scammel
17-07-2014, 19:43
Other popular skew lists: horde spam (OnG, DE), troll spam (OnG, WoC), air force (lizardmen), flying circus (WoC, vampires), monster mash (DE, TK, LM), cloud lists (LM, WE), fastcav avoidance (DE, WE), magic heavy (TK, Empire, LM, Beastmen).

Several of these are actually the most optimised list for that book. Warriors regularly run Chimeras, Princes and Discs, for example, whilst magic-heavy Beastmen is by and far and away the best that book can bring to the table.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-07-2014, 19:51
Several of these are actually the most optimised list for that book. Warriors regularly run Chimeras, Princes and Discs, for example, whilst magic-heavy Beastmen is by and far and away the best that book can bring to the table.

"Skew" means that they overwhelm one aspect of the game to the exclusion of the others. All of these lists win through that overwhelming advantage. Shut it down and they lose.

"Skew" is defined in comparison to "balanced lists," that participate equally in all aspects of the game.


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Scammel
17-07-2014, 20:01
"Skew" means that they overwhelm one aspect of the game to the exclusion of the others. All of these lists win through that overwhelming advantage. Shut it down and they lose.

"Skew" is defined in comparison to "balanced lists," that participate equally in all aspects of the game.

Not in the context of this discussion, apparently (though I'll confess I've never heard it used before either way).

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-07-2014, 20:12
Not in the context of this discussion, apparently (though I'll confess I've never heard it used before either way).

I did not, apparently. The word the OP is going for is "non-standard". Skew is an entirely different concept.


In that case, some lists that I've seen do well that deviate heavily from the net list:

VC flying circus (vargs, tg(s), varghulf(s), lord on a flying mount)

Shooty ogres

Defensive MMU brets

Dragon Prince Deathstar


I'll note that I play in a WLD meta, so defensive points denial lists are a lot more common, and tend to confuse opponents by SEEMING like the net list but operating substantially differently.


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Minigiant
17-07-2014, 21:53
I never said Dual Terrorgheists or Knight bus is skew i clearly types Standard lists are those and then linked to a Skew List. People dont get the question so im just going to lock the thread