PDA

View Full Version : missile fire, overpowered? underpowered?



EvanM
18-07-2014, 22:27
I used to think mundane missile fire was sort of a waste of time in most armies, unless the unit could also be a viable close combat block as well (rangers, lothern sea guard, etc) but i have begun to notice that even "crappy" shooting really adds up sometimes.

enough S3 bowshots can cripple close combat units, rob ranks away from units that rely on steadfast, or wear down even armored or t4 foes.

also artillery can really do a number on an army even if its not the uber good artillery, like the helstorm rocket battery is lame but it can be good against horde armies, and even great cannons rack up kills against infantry fast enough to be worth their points most of the time.

BS3 troops sometimes cant hit the side of a barn but on average 10 BS3 crossbowmen unleash the same number of S4 hits as a lvl 2 fire wizard casting fireball but is more reliable and durable.

I am not even talking about glade guard with magic exploding arrows but just regular footsloggin dudes with bows or what not.

does anyone agree that they are much better than they are sometimes (in the comp realm) described? "handgunners suck, they are a dead unit"

or do people think S3 bowfire from BS3 units is more like spitwads most of the time?

Katastrophe
18-07-2014, 22:58
Since rout sf run down are not that prevalent any longer as a method of killing units massed shooting is a very effective replacement. I generally can muster 100 shots a turn with my WEs, 70+ with my DEs and 40+ with my HE. It can really hurt units that people tend to think are shooting proof. Once a few models from those unkillable units die, players tend to lose all concept of sticking to their original strategy of belly bumping in the middle of the field. Coupled with my tendency to avoid direct combat to increase shooting opportunities, I really make my battles winnable when I decide to engage them.

SpanielBear
18-07-2014, 23:54
As a general rule:

Shooting beats Avoidance. Avoidance beats Deathstars. Deathstars beat MMU. MMU beats Shooting.

So I guess your meta will have an effect.

Voss
19-07-2014, 00:30
I used to think mundane missile fire was sort of a waste of time in most armies, unless the unit could also be a viable close combat block as well (rangers, lothern sea guard, etc) but i have begun to notice that even "crappy" shooting really adds up sometimes.

enough S3 bowshots can cripple close combat units, rob ranks away from units that rely on steadfast, or wear down even armored or t4 foes.

also artillery can really do a number on an army even if its not the uber good artillery, like the helstorm rocket battery is lame but it can be good against horde armies, and even great cannons rack up kills against infantry fast enough to be worth their points most of the time.

BS3 troops sometimes cant hit the side of a barn but on average 10 BS3 crossbowmen unleash the same number of S4 hits as a lvl 2 fire wizard casting fireball but is more reliable and durable.

I am not even talking about glade guard with magic exploding arrows but just regular footsloggin dudes with bows or what not.

does anyone agree that they are much better than they are sometimes (in the comp realm) described? "handgunners suck, they are a dead unit"

or do people think S3 bowfire from BS3 units is more like spitwads most of the time?

Haha, no. Shooting is terrible in Fantasy. Magic missiles are also terrible, which is why bows might look reasonable when compared to fireball. Some war machine shooting can be good (depending on the specific rules). But mostly shooting gets taken so the point you have to throw away on core models contribute a couple kills over the course of the game.


If you goo full commitment (75%+ points) to shooting, you might provide some mediocre results, but that is about it.

EvanM
19-07-2014, 01:18
So there is a shooty heavy list in most armies that's viable but i'm talking about units that are rarely taken because they are considered useless.

10 empire handgunners can take out several knights sometimes and it seems to me that if you pick the right targets, shooting "throw away" units can win back their points.

Take out a few knights, do a few wounds to monstrous cavalry or monstrous infantry and you can really help the close combat afterwards.

HurrDurr
19-07-2014, 01:51
I've had pistoliers dance around my skullcrushers and deal 1-2 wounds per shooting phase, they can walk right up to 1 inch away and fire all their shots, and with str 4 armor piercing you fail 1 in 3 wounds, it isn't too shabby.

EvanM
19-07-2014, 03:17
S4 AP is a threat to all units without T6+

people dont expect to lose that much from shooting.

also shenanigans like that are WAY easier to pull off if the enemy has no shooting. WoC is scary in close combat but 5 pistoliers deal as much damage as 10 handgunners do and if you dont have any shooting to pick these 5+ AS T3 (weak as crap) guys then you will be hurting over time.

armies that spam poison shots (goblins i think? and tomb kind archers + khalida) also raep sometimes because.......wow hold on a sec "raep" is a word HAHAHA.

I think people ignore shooting that isnt 15+ hits or at S5 or more (haha helblaster, thank god you exist).

I wish each army had shooting though, like marauders with crossbows/javelins sound cool (why not??) and maybe VC should have bolt throwers and beastmen could have throwing axes. How come there isnt a chaos army with severed head throwing dudes (little damage but cause panic check or something)?

Lord Solar Plexus
19-07-2014, 07:29
I used to think mundane missile fire was sort of a waste of time in most armies, unless the unit could also be a viable close combat block as well (rangers, lothern sea guard, etc) but i have begun to notice that even "crappy" shooting really adds up sometimes.

enough S3 bowshots can cripple close combat units, rob ranks away from units that rely on steadfast, or wear down even armored or t4 foes.

Quite so - quantity has a quality of its own. The question, as always, is whether this is a cost-effective book specific means of dealing with a thread. Since while S4 AP is a threat to T3 no AS models, how many wounds can you actually cause for how many points? At 9 points a pop and no mobility and no close combat prowess, Handgunners absolutely positively suck, even though 100 of them can with a little luck kill a knight. ;)

So of course people rightly ignore bad choices that get no hits - what did you expect?

Alltaken
19-07-2014, 12:34
Massed bow shot works, with a little luck, too wound and not to save. But it generally has low returns, thats the point in the end.

And magic missiles work since they are regularly S4,so they're good against chaff or on a bad magic phase to reduce certain units.

EvanM
19-07-2014, 17:18
magic missiles are best against fast cav and skirmisher and chaff because they are small units that are often not in range or line of sight of your actuall missile guys.

maybe this is a fluke but 10 handgunners firing at long range with no buffs killed 3 silver helms. thats 69 pts worth of guys in one round of shooting.
on average if you shoot at the right guys sometimes you can do a lot of pts worth in damage. handgunners probably arent the best choice against monsters with T6 yeah sure but against knights you dont always need 100 of them to destroy stuff.

Don Zeko
19-07-2014, 17:35
maybe this is a fluke but 10 handgunners firing at long range with no buffs killed 3 silver helms. thats 69 pts worth of guys in one round of shooting.
on average if you shoot at the right guys sometimes you can do a lot of pts worth in damage. handgunners probably arent the best choice against monsters with T6 yeah sure but against knights you dont always need 100 of them to destroy stuff.

It is, in fact, a fluke. Hitting on 5's, wounding on 3's, saving on 4's, you'd expect 10 shots to do about one wound per round, meaning that the handgunners would need 4 rounds of uninterrupted fire to kill their points worth of silver helms, which they most assuredly will not get. Like Lord Solar Plexus said above, the question is whether or not they are cost effective. Almost every unit in the game is capable of fulfilling a role, it's just that many of them cost too many points to do so in a points effective way. Handgunners, like most BS shooting, aren't cost effective at this role, particularly when you compare them to the warmachines in the same book that do the same thing much better.

EvanM
19-07-2014, 17:37
but no chance of misfire and no power dice needed. its worth something

HurrDurr
19-07-2014, 18:39
I think if missile troops like handgunners were aloud to pivot at least a few inches it would change public opinion of them, in order to get good coverage with them you have to dedicate a lot of energy and resources to force enemies into firing lanes, and that makes them pointless(not to mention when they walk in front of 10 handgunners it turns out to be a few hits and wounds tops). Right now handgunners do the same thing a helblaster does but worse.

EvanM
19-07-2014, 19:00
well handgunners honestly should be 6-7 pts each under current rules. i think when 8th came out the idea was that since you can fire in 2 ranks shooting must have gotten way better, but not really.

the reason why they arent any good is mostly because they cant fight in close combat. Give handgunners light armor + halberd for 8-10 pts a guy and maybe thatd be cool? that or crossbows with halberds.

the only competitive shooting units either also fight in combat as well as any other guys (Lothern sea guard), get a WAY TOO POWERFUL shooting attack (helblaster), or are so insanely cheap/mobile that its okay (gobbo shortbow units, fast cav with bows)

Id like to see an empire unit that can be equiped with armor, spears/halberd/shield+sword/2 HW. Maybe free company with a crossbow as well could be 8 pts? or free company skirmishers with 1 pistol, 1 HW? or maybe handgunners with "bayonets" that equal a spear?

itd be cool. idk if thats gonna happen, but whatever. Empire infantry is decent as it is, but i expect a lot of random good and bad changes in 9th ed.

you also dont want a sweeping change to shooting (like +1 to hit across the board) because lots of shooting units are already really good.

Empire core infantry though, is like dwarf core except no heavy armor, T4, GW, or all their special rules and we are only a few pts less per guy.

if i played dwarfs i would have units of 30 quarellors

Josfer
20-07-2014, 00:22
The difference is that the lvl 2 wizard will have a second spell that he can use once the targets are in CC. AND magic missiles aren't that good to begin with.

EvanM
20-07-2014, 00:58
Well they should be. Its kind of stupid that direct damage spells are way better than magic missiles. Magic is a whole debacle but whatever.

I still think missile shooting is worth while sometimes.

HurrDurr
20-07-2014, 03:38
Well they should be. Its kind of stupid that direct damage spells are way better than magic missiles. Magic is a whole debacle but whatever.

I still think missile shooting is worth while sometimes.

Ask yourself, are you playing against wood elves? Magic missiles are great against them.

EvanM
20-07-2014, 03:56
but compared to direct damage spells, magic missiles suck. and its really stupid that dwellers and spells like that ignore Magic resistance saves.

Kingly
20-07-2014, 05:12
I've built my HE around bow fire and really struggled against DE but vs Skaven and CW they do really really well. So I don't think it's useless.

it can feel it at times though!

NemoSD
20-07-2014, 05:24
I don't do bow as a primary, but I do a skirmishing High Elf list with Reavers trying to bait the other army into bad charges, while sea guard, archers, sisters, and bolt throwers do damage. The bows are there to facilitate annoyance tactics. Normally the death blow comes in the form of a baited charge in my LSG with Alarielle, or into my PG in larger games, with Swordmasters or Silver Helms grabbing a flank.

yabbadabba
20-07-2014, 07:06
Gunlines show why you can't let shooting get too powerful.

Anyway it's all about scenario dependent choices. Most people who post here come across as having to design an army without knowing the scenario beforehand.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-07-2014, 08:02
but no chance of misfire and no power dice needed. its worth something

It's not worth 90 points. I mean I'm sure 90 points won't completely break the budget in a 2,500 point list but they actually don't achieve anything - yours did not bag you any points.

And I'm not just speaking from a mathhamer perspective. I've tried out Handgunners many a time. Last tournament, for example. Game 1, they were killed by an Eagle. Game 2 (DoC), they didn't kill a model. Game 3 (Brets), they stood behind a wall and were lucky no enemy units looked their way. There weren't any good targets in any of these armies conveniently putting themselves into the open right in front of them.

Some factions can still field okay shooting. Dark Elves, O&G and TK can move and shoot and have either volume of fire or poison or special rules. Leadbelchers can move and shoot, have decent strength and can fight. True Flight and such offer certain benefits you don't usually get. Even HE can at least turn and fire at something to their side, at better BS and overall stats and ASF, and you know what people think of those poor buggers.

SpanielBear
20-07-2014, 08:04
Gunlines show why you can't let shooting get too powerful.

Anyway it's all about scenario dependent choices. Most people who post here come across as having to design an army without knowing the scenario beforehand.

It's a consequence of mostly playing pick up games in my case. I am unlikely to know either the army or battle type I'm playing more than 30 minutes in advance.

TheRipper
20-07-2014, 09:34
War machines and magic are a little overpowered, BS-based shooting is a little underpowered. Small missile units can be very good for forcing panic checks on small fast cav units and can pile on when you're shooting everything at one unit.

yabbadabba
20-07-2014, 09:57
It's a consequence of mostly playing pick up games in my case. I am unlikely to know either the army or battle type I'm playing more than 30 minutes in advance. I agree. When I get the chance to play siege games, missile troops can really come into their own - even more so when buffed and with the BSB nearby just in case.

EvanM
21-07-2014, 01:10
war machines are INSANE in sieges. i have been playing them with my brother's dwarfs..... yeah. last time i assaulted the walls with 5k pts of skaven + goblins, he had 3k dwarfs including 2 cannons, flame cannon, organ gun, thunderers and rangers.
I lost over 200 models before i reached the walls. after 4 turns he had lost 6 models and 4 of them were killed by my general, queek.

yes, not in support of gunlines!!

BUT i think theres this weird phenomenon where units like wizards and war machines just completely outshine bs based shooting even when you take all factors like bad in close combat, chance of blowing self up, etc into account.

handgunners should be worthwhile. if you have them in a castle wall/tower firing for 4-5 turns constantly, yes, they are good. but these uber units like even regular cannons firing into infantry can just raep people on the walls.

i dont think any one is scared of a 10 man unit of handgunners, and even if they were they can get killed by a captasus or other race's similar unit.

Sinsigel
21-07-2014, 02:29
Although most template weapons(stone throwers, cannons) are both destructive and require no To Hit rolls(making them look outstripping BS shooting),
I think importance of BS shooting is gradually increasing. Take a look at new dark elves and wood elves book.
Both are considered to be over the middle at the very least, while many players think of them as good, strong armies.

Both armies feature large amount of MSU fast cavalry and skirmishers, which aren't so easily removed by conventional template shooting.
If someone is shooting fire throwers or cannons at them, he/she is making a mistake.
Bows, handguns, repeater bolt thrower(and magic missiles, although this is a spell) are more effective shooting when dealing with those units.

So while template shooting and direct damage spells are still strong choices, formerly disdained magic missiles and bs shooting are getting their proper places in games,
which was unimaginable few years ago when 8th just started.

EvanM
21-07-2014, 02:50
also people dont expect to have to worry about it, and great eagle units, fast cav, gyrocopters and the like are often susceptible to a wee bit of shooting. so either kill em (get points) or make them not want to come near you.

Skywave
21-07-2014, 05:58
Shooting have potential, but need to be used in mass, just like anything in 8th edition. People goes and get combat horde of 40-60 models in a heartbeat, but then take 10-man unit with bow or gun and say it's not worth it. I play Tomb Kings, and if I want my shooting to matter I'll take bigger units. At 30+ it's starting to matter, but a unit of 10 will accomplish nothing.

A unit of 30 Handgunners or Crossbowmen is cheaper than 50 Halberdiers, and I'd recon that 30 of them have to do some damage. If my TK archers can kill stuff, I'm sure those Handgunners can too!

dooms33ker
21-07-2014, 06:33
To be considered successful missile fire ought to be utilized to take out isolated threats which are out of reach for your battle line, and for that purpose a unit or two of crossbows, archers, etc can have a role to play in the army, though taking a specialized unit will work even better.

Ideally a ranged unit should be able to fire on the move in order to react quickly to chaff movements. Your handgunners won't help in much else beyond killing a knight or two, and even then good deployment and cover can mitigate their efficacy.

I think having scout or ambush will help put missile troops in a better position to actually complete a focused task, a la skaven gutter runners, or Dark Elf Shades, hence why these are the ranged units you see most often in their respective armies. Shooting down re-directors, ambushing warmashines and poisoning monsters are tasks missile troops do better than line breakers, and to that effect missile fire is neither overpowered or underpowered, but exactly what it should be in the game.

But if you expect non-wood elf core to have a profound effect on the battle by chipping away at a death star, causing mass panic, and eliciting cheers of support from your opponent who has spent the past few turns advancing his units while you sit back and chip away at their ablative wounds, you're probably in for a disappointment at best and a painful defeat at worst.

Josfer
21-07-2014, 08:50
I think having scout or ambush will help put missile troops in a better position to actually complete a focused task, a la skaven gutter runners, or Dark Elf Shades, hence why these are the ranged units you see most often in their respective armies. Shooting down re-directors, ambushing warmashines and poisoning monsters are tasks missile troops do better than line breakers, and to that effect missile fire is neither overpowered or underpowered, but exactly what it should be in the game.
Sounds for me like "forget missile troops that don't have poison", because archer elves will probably not kill a warmachine or monster...

SpanielBear
21-07-2014, 09:57
Sounds for me like "forget missile troops that don't have poison", because archer elves will probably not kill a warmachine or monster...

They'll do horrible things to chaff and MSU though...

baransiege
21-07-2014, 10:24
It is, in fact, a fluke. Hitting on 5's, wounding on 3's, saving on 4's, you'd expect 10 shots to do about one wound per round, meaning that the handgunners would need 4 rounds of uninterrupted fire to kill their points worth of silver helms, which they most assuredly will not get. Like Lord Solar Plexus said above, the question is whether or not they are cost effective. Almost every unit in the game is capable of fulfilling a role, it's just that many of them cost too many points to do so in a points effective way. Handgunners, like most BS shooting, aren't cost effective at this role, particularly when you compare them to the warmachines in the same book that do the same thing much better.

A unit doesn't have to make its points back to be effective and worth including in a list. This is such a mistake when people just think of units like this in isolation.

The role of missile fire is not to wipe out units, it's to weaken units' combat effectiveness so that your melee troops win combat and run them down.

Those handgunners don't need to make back their points, if pinging off a couple of knights is all they do but that difference strips the rank bonus from that unit (-1 enemy CR) so that they can no longer cause Disruption (+3 friendly CR) and removes 2 ASF lance hits (therefore on average -2 enemy CR) before combat starts I'd say that's a good deal.

Josfer
21-07-2014, 11:02
removes 2 ASF lance hits (therefore on average -2 enemy CR)
On average that's not even -1.5 CR (but barely below) even with ASF, superior WS and S>=T+2 so 3+rr to hit, 2+ to wound.

Wesser
21-07-2014, 11:02
A unit doesn't have to make its points back to be effective and worth including in a list. This is such a mistake when people just think of units like this in isolation.

The role of missile fire is not to wipe out units, it's to weaken units' combat effectiveness so that your melee troops win combat and run them down.

Those handgunners don't need to make back their points, if pinging off a couple of knights is all they do but that difference strips the rank bonus from that unit (-1 enemy CR) so that they can no longer cause Disruption (+3 friendly CR) and removes 2 ASF lance hits (therefore on average -2 enemy CR) before combat starts I'd say that's a good deal.

That little analysis forgets that:

a) Handgunners/Crossbowmen give up their points extremely easily. It's not only whether they make back their points, but also whether they are worth the points they give away

b) Move-or-fire is pretty devastatingly bad. In a battle line you are starting out of range to begin with, and if your opponent have any sense those Handgunners find themselves opposite archers rather than knights. Pat of the problem is to get them to position where they can shoot something that matters.


So no specifically Handgunners & Crossbowmen are probably not worth it under any circumstances. I field them because I like the look of them in my army, but I expect their main impact to be causing a bit of Panic in the army. I generally expect them to do nothing

dalezzz
21-07-2014, 11:58
Misslefire is getting more useful I think as msu Armys become more common, as has been mentioned though move or fire stuff is of limited use against these types of force

baransiege
21-07-2014, 15:13
On average that's not even -1.5 CR (but barely below) even with ASF, superior WS and S>=T+2 so 3+rr to hit, 2+ to wound.

I can see how you arose to that figure but you've haven't counted on the fact that you can't carry over a decimal number of hits or wounds, you have to round at each stage of the calculation.

Chance of 2 hits in first roll = 44.4%, chance of 1 hit and 1 miss in first roll = 44.3%. Chance of 1 hit and 1 miss in first roll, followed by 1 hit in second roll = 29.5%. Chance of 2 misses, followed by 2 hits = 4.9%. Which gives a 77% (remember to take account that our loss of accuracy due to 1dp accuracy earlier) chance of 2 hits.
Baring in mind that you can't score a decimal number of hits, you can see 2 hits is by far the most likely of the 3 possible outcomes.

Similar situation with wounds, T3 being standard for Empire troops - chance of 2 wounds on 2 dice (don't forget rule number 1 that probability doesn't have memory, this dice roll is independent of the results of the first, high rolling in those dice has zero relevance to this result) = 69.4%.
Again by far the highest probability of the 3 possible outcomes. Remember you can't have a decimal number of wounds now.

Anything barring Empire knights will get no save, therefore -2 CR.

EvanM
21-07-2014, 16:28
WHAT. NO! You don't round at each stage????? Okay have you never done statistical calculations before? You just need to calculate the average:

7/3 = 2.333 if you round down its 2.
Next multiply back by 3 and you get 6. Where you wanted 7. That's a pretty big error from rounding in the middle, and that's only one calculation. God wow fail.

I don't think MSU empire is gonna work.

I think move-or-fire should be adjusted so you can try to do a fast reform with a musician (to rotate a few inches) and still be allowed to shoot.
Would that fix it?

danny-d-b
21-07-2014, 16:41
I have to say the only shooting unit I take in my empire is some bowmen to redirect and a slightly bigger unit to act as a bunker, the rest of the shooting is done by the helblaster and cannon (then again the bowmen are only there to redirect, I could probably use 5 free company just as well, and would happily give up bows for a decrease in points

however I think shooting is quite hard to balance, I don't think anyone wants to go back to 7th edition where empire was go gunline or go home but it does seem to be a bit pointless at the moment, maybe make someway of making shooting units more viable in combat (some kind of square formation), improve the detachment rules or perhaps adding in some new rules (archers don't need line of sight to reflect being able to shoot over terrain, crossbows and handguns have killing blow (to reflect headshots and the like?))

HelloKitty
21-07-2014, 16:45
Add a rule like rending to some weapons. Meaning on a 6 to wound you get no armor save. Killing blow is a bit too potent. Its almost the same as the aforementioned but killing blow takes a multi wound model and kills it outright, as opposed to just dropping it a wound.

I think shooting should stay as a support element in fantasy, and combat is the main way to garner points. That's just my opinion though.

danny-d-b
21-07-2014, 16:59
Add a rule like rending to some weapons. Meaning on a 6 to wound you get no armor save. Killing blow is a bit too potent. Its almost the same as the aforementioned but killing blow takes a multi wound model and kills it outright, as opposed to just dropping it a wound.

I think shooting should stay as a support element in fantasy, and combat is the main way to garner points. That's just my opinion though.

yes something along them lines, to be honest would have a similar effect though as characters should be safe in units (hopefully) and other multwound stuff is usualy immune to kb

baransiege
21-07-2014, 17:34
WHAT. NO! You don't round at each stage????? Okay have you never done statistical calculations before? You just need to calculate the average:

7/3 = 2.333 if you round down its 2.
Next multiply back by 3 and you get 6. Where you wanted 7. That's a pretty big error from rounding in the middle, and that's only one calculation. God wow fail.

I don't think MSU empire is gonna work.

I think move-or-fire should be adjusted so you can try to do a fast reform with a musician (to rotate a few inches) and still be allowed to shoot.
Would that fix it?

Degree level probability and statitician. The point is that the end result at each stage is a discrete variable, not a continuous one.

It's not about rounding but applying the probabilities to the valid, available outputs. A decimal value is not a valid output. That's why it is of no use taking a decimal value through to the next stage in the process.

Alltaken
21-07-2014, 17:39
Well the missile fire I believe effective are: iron drakes, quarrelers, dark shards, poison shot (skinks), maidens, we arrows everything with some distinct advantages, poison being the only 1 without a reduction to armor. I think horde corsair might work too for stand and shoot mostly but not too convinced still. Regular bows arent that good without those, and quarellers are good because once they hit combat they're not specifically shabby.

Warmachines are another point totally and most work very good or beyond.

Urgat
21-07-2014, 20:26
When my 60 strong units of gob archers take a volley pot shot at something, honestly, they look efficient enough to me, poison or not.

EvanM
21-07-2014, 20:31
Okay I don't know what you mean by the stats thing... but whatever not important.

Yeah its fun to shoot 60 bows at something! I just wish you could get handgunners for a decent points cost. BS3 and a handgun, no armor or fighting ability at all is not worth 9 pts, probably 6.

Josfer
21-07-2014, 21:07
Degree level probability and statitician.
I call ********. You can't even correctly calculate the probability of 2 ASF attacks on 3+ which is 79% and not 77%. IF you had a degree, you would've known an easier way to calculate it and even with your complicated way if you just added up your own numbers you would've reached 78.8%, not 77%.

AND you don't know what "on average" means. If you have 10 groups of apples, 1, 1, 1, 1, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9 you don't have 1 on average, because it will show in the most groups, the average will be 5.5. What you're talking about is a "majority".

Your biggest problem is, that you have to multiply both results and then compare it to the probability AND result of the other two. Sure you have barely above half of the times 2 wounds, but you also have a >5% chance of dealing ZERO.

Oh and you probably would've learned how to spell statistician...

EvanM
21-07-2014, 21:35
That's all the stuff I wanted to say to him but didn't. Good job! I think he meant that he took stats class at community college. Not that he had a 4 year degree in statistics

yabbadabba
21-07-2014, 22:01
AND you don't know what "on average" means. If you have 10 groups of apples, 1, 1, 1, 1, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9 you don't have 1 on average, because it will show in the most groups, the average will be 5.5. What you're talking about is a "majority". The '1' will be an average. It's called the Mode and is one of three averages including Mean and Median. The one everyone calls 'average' is the mean, which is what you quoted, and is the most commonly used definition when related to the word 'average'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks2/maths/data/mode_median_mean_range/read/1/

That link is not meant to be condescending, I just find BBC Bitesize explains things the most clearly and simply.

Imperator64
21-07-2014, 22:45
This forum is at its most depressing when its tries to be an episide of the "Desperate geeks failing to be as clever as they think they are" show. Do you remember that show? No? That's 'cus it's rubbish.
Back on topic, bs missle fire has been close to worthless for much of 8th but the Elven armies have made it worthwhile again. Atm delves & welves are a bit of a shock and that may cause some to think that bs missle fire is more powerful than it is.
Wait for the counters to arrive, wait for armies to become a little more balanced and able to account for this new, revived threat and we'll see that bs shooting is a worthwhile addition to a list but not an overpowered presence in the meta.

boli
21-07-2014, 23:17
In our meta (not much in the way of 2+ and 1+ AS) massed BS shooting has been *far* more successful than artillery.

Very annoying for the opponent so only used sparingly.

Urgat
21-07-2014, 23:28
Yeah its fun to shoot 60 bows at something! I just wish you could get handgunners for a decent points cost. BS3 and a handgun, no armor or fighting ability at all is not worth 9 pts, probably 6.

Well 45, "only" 75% get to shoot. Still, when you got three such units, it gets tough for anybody. people don't like BS shooting because they don't bring enough. Don't bring enough melee dudes and you won't like melee either :p.

Sorry about your handgunners. They don't get volley shots either, but at least they're S4 with a good range. Well I think I'd play Empire, I'd still take three units of them, 30 focused shots of that should be very useful whatever the target. Sure it's expensive, but I believe they'd be worth it. For starters, you place them next to your warmachines and I don't see many light cav units able to brush that kind of protection off easily. And with their range, even if nothing comes their way, they'll still have plenty of opportunities to shoot at stuff.

EvanM
22-07-2014, 02:29
Empire shooting is lackluster. I just wanna get more dudes. I mean how is it better to have 15 handgunners than a single helblaster? It costs more points but isn't as good. Maybe there needs to be a rule for master engineer's to buff BS shooting of a unit they are in.

also why can't master engineers be less points? Skaven engineers are 15 points! (yes I know it's not the same thing...)

HurrDurr
22-07-2014, 03:00
Well 45, "only" 75% get to shoot. Still, when you got three such units, it gets tough for anybody. people don't like BS shooting because they don't bring enough. Don't bring enough melee dudes and you won't like melee either :p.

Sorry about your handgunners. They don't get volley shots either, but at least they're S4 with a good range. Well I think I'd play Empire, I'd still take three units of them, 30 focused shots of that should be very useful whatever the target. Sure it's expensive, but I believe they'd be worth it. For starters, you place them next to your warmachines and I don't see many light cav units able to brush that kind of protection off easily. And with their range, even if nothing comes their way, they'll still have plenty of opportunities to shoot at stuff.

I think the opportunity to fire 3 individual 10 man units at the same target would be a rare occurrence, because no one runs into that many shots unless they think they can walk it off. That said, running them in minimal units maybe as detachments (sometimes to bounce stubborn etc) can give them good backup utility, and being split up guarantees at least one lane of fire be occupied, but I still look at those point costs for their accuracy and wonder if it's worth it. It's basically an elf with -1 to hit +1 to str with armor pierce(which averages about 13% more wounds on T4 no armor targets at short range 2.5 vs 2.178 ), cutting out the variables of slow-to-fire, range, etc. I think they perform the way they should, they just cost too much to do it. They aren't broken beyond use, but you have to work harder to make it work.

EvanM
22-07-2014, 05:18
What's better, empire crossbowmen/handgunner or high elf archer? (without factor of close combat, pretend they are just taking pot shots at tied up orcs or dwarfs or something)

Wesser
22-07-2014, 07:13
Empire shooting is lackluster. I just wanna get more dudes. I mean how is it better to have 15 handgunners than a single helblaster? It costs more points but isn't as good. Maybe there needs to be a rule for master engineer's to buff BS shooting of a unit they are in.

also why can't master engineers be less points? Skaven engineers are 15 points! (yes I know it's not the same thing...)

Well Engineers make Helblasters twice as good for less than twice the points, so that's good (in fact my gaming group lowered HBVG's to 100 pts, but has disallowed engineers for it in return)

Also Pidgeoneers are awesome.


If you wanna troll someone just once try taking 6 and a Heavens Wizard with Harmonic Convergence.....




Also 6 pts is probably what handgunners/crossbowmen are worth. I don't see the real reason for them to cost more than a halberdier

Kingly
22-07-2014, 07:21
Even, as I have both High Elves and Empire armies I can fill you in on my playing experience, nothing to do with the likes of YabbaDabbas Maths but actual experience of just playing. My High Elf Archers of which in some games I have fielded 40-50 have been pretty useless, opponents being Skaven, Undead, WoC & HE's.
On the opposite hand I have 30 Crossbow men and 10 Hunters and they in the very small amount of games I have filed them in (5-6 games) Have actually done rather well! At one point wiping out a unit of 10 Witch Elves as "Stand and fire".

I would say the valuable Str4 -1SV 30' That crossbows gives you far outweighs the manoeuvrable BS4 bonus.

What I will also tell you in that in despite of statistics and Maths all of this counts for nothing when you are facing a DE "In your face cavalry army!" Gits!

EvanM
22-07-2014, 21:21
Now does a unit of 40 or 50 archers being useful for shooting but also in close combat?

Urgat
22-07-2014, 21:59
Well my common gobs are big tarpits, steadfast units that also happen to shoot, in fact. They're really good units with their sneaky skewers, occasional big boss, etc. Night goblin archers aren't as good, but they're much cheaper, and you'll still find some people who might be afraid of fanatics now and then, and they can still use the nets, so they're rather useful too.

HurrDurr
22-07-2014, 23:14
Now does a unit of 40 or 50 archers being useful for shooting but also in close combat?

They are one of the worst ways a HE could spend points on close combat I'm sure, so you just weigh the pros and cons. You can tell easily enough what they will be able to fend off and what will crush them in a turn or two.

Also, who would run their archers in one big block of free points? As a WE player that just looks ugly.

EvanM
23-07-2014, 00:29
I think it's dumb that a unit of 40 archers would be a waste. They are supposed to be the mainstay of the army, but yet again core makes them a tax.

HurrDurr
23-07-2014, 00:38
It isn't because they are in core, it's because they ARE core. Which as we know is generally lower grade troops. I think shooting aside from a few select builds/armies can only be a niche role, like redirector, warmachine hunter, etc. It counters weak but maneuverable units that double as high value targets, great eagles, fast cav, keeps lone wizards away.

Katastrophe
23-07-2014, 00:46
They are one of the worst ways a HE could spend points on close combat I'm sure, so you just weigh the pros and cons. You can tell easily enough what they will be able to fend off and what will crush them in a turn or two.

Also, who would run their archers in one big block of free points? As a WE player that just looks ugly.

I run large blocks of HE archers all the time. After a game I've never had anyone say they were a waste. In fact, when the book came out I posted a thread essentially saying why ever run spear or Lotherns when archers are just as effective. In practice they've done essentially as well as both their counterparts. And in most instances outperformed them.

Imperator64
23-07-2014, 01:20
I often used to run a big unit of helf archers and they are far from useless. I want to have a nice bunker for teclis or whoever is running the show that particular day so I prefer that bunker to be a unit that contributes whilst outside of combat. And if worst comes to worst and said bunker finds itself in combat then remember that magic is so powerful nowadays that any unit can be a threat . You should've drawn out the scroll by that point so it shouldn't be too hard to pull of mindrazor or you inferior equivalent but there is no spell that allows spearmen to shoot.

EvanM
23-07-2014, 04:35
hmm well 40 archers in horde formation sound awesome, as a bunker too.

what do you guys think of high elf core infantry with an annointed (general) leading them and also a High Archmage in there?

annointed is a general with a 4++, he grants a bunch of random bonuses (fear, Immune to psych, 6+ ward save, MR2) and then an archmage to boost that ward save to near phoenix guard levels?

Josfer
23-07-2014, 11:49
50 lothern sea guard with a sea helm could be nice. First stand in two ranks and shoot 50 shots at stuff and if you get charged, you can decide to either stand and shoot or reform into either spear horde or worst case scenario (really expensive) goblin tarpit.

EvanM
23-07-2014, 15:54
you could be 3 ranks deep as they are elves. yeah interesting idea. i think how they are supposed to be played (like what the book designer was thinking)

HurrDurr
23-07-2014, 19:48
What I meant was for close combat purposes they are the "most" useless, not really useless but definitely bottom of the barrel when you consider what a high elf player is used to bumping bellies with(lions/phoenix/SM.) So you need to know what you're getting yourself into is all, they shoot str 3 shots and can hold off T3 S3 troops that aren't heavily armored. An equal number of points of sauras could probably march right up charge and through the casualties still beat them up until they fled, knights see them and start counting up the free points.

NemoSD
23-07-2014, 20:26
50 lothern sea guard with a sea helm could be nice. First stand in two ranks and shoot 50 shots at stuff and if you get charged, you can decide to either stand and shoot or reform into either spear horde or worst case scenario (really expensive) goblin tarpit.

Stick Alarielle in there and that is how I run my Sea Guard (Although 29+Alarielle instead of 50.) Run the Queen with life and high magic. You have a chance for Regrowth and our Toughness booster, then High Magic for ward save boosters turning them into a flexible formation of shooting tough as nails elves. (Toughness 5, with 4+ Ward, and the chance to regain lost models in the next magic phase.)