PDA

View Full Version : 50 spear elves or 50 Lothern sea guard



EvanM
19-07-2014, 20:12
50 HE Spearmen unleash 50 attacks in horde formation. they cost a lot of points but its pretty awesome! I play it with an Annointed on foot to give them a 6++ immune to psych and a few other things.

is this good? its not Waac or whatever but what do you think?

also, how about 50 lothern sea guard? same thing but now you release 40 bowshots a turn + stand and shoot. downside is they cant give the magic standard (SoD).

thoughts? yes most elf players would rather just take 30 phoenix guard or 2 frostheart phoenixes... but blegh that

SimaoSegunda
20-07-2014, 00:20
That's a heck of a lot of points in one huge, not-particularly-manoeuvrable unit. Of the two, sea guard having shots means the unit is less likely to be stranded and ignored, but on a battlefield with any decent amount of terrain, it's a big footprint. Stone throwers can devastate it, dwellers will rip it a new one, although that's a meta-dependant threat.

Also, 50 S3 attacks is.... Not really all that scary. It's something like 5-6 wounds against a unit of chaos warriors, assuming all 50 get to attack, for example.

Josfer
20-07-2014, 00:26
It's ok. You won't get 50 attacks often, because most things don't field 10 or even 8 wide. And it's only S3, so you hit about 75-89% of the time, wound on 33-50% of the time and then the full armor (and lots of people play stuff with lots of armor) comes into place so another 17-~67%. In a good case that's 10 wounds, in a bad one it's 3 for all 50 attacks. Against 5 wide elite it's 2-7.
In return you get 50-67% attacks, with S4 you are wounded on 66%, pass armor only on 17% and thus lose the same amount of models by 5-19 attacks...which is quite easy for elite. S5 makes it even worse.

EvanM
20-07-2014, 00:30
50 attacks at WS4 with ASF means you'll probably hit most ws3 units with 45 s3 hits.

Yeah its not a unit of white lions or phoenix guard but it's pretty cool and if you buff it with anything it'll be good.

I tend to not play with dweller spells or stuff but yeah, I think it's decent but oh well.

Captain Collius
20-07-2014, 00:31
This unit works okay but it makes a lvl. 4 with okkams mandatory. And its just not a good unit. Now 50 white lions or phoenix guard that's a different story.

Knifeparty
20-07-2014, 01:01
If you exceed your core percentage with the unit, then it's not worth it. If you don't have Wildform or Mindrazor, its not worth it.

Strength 3 doesn't win games.

draccan
20-07-2014, 02:01
From an armchair perspective as I don't play HE, I would say 2x25 Seaguards as they pose more of a threat, can support each other and shoot and harass the enemy, plus you can find cheapish Island of Blood models..

King Arthur
20-07-2014, 13:06
Easy buff if wyysans just from 2xlvl 1 wizards would be awesome imagine the carnage S5 T5 with that many attacks urgh or even S4 T4 that would be a sight and with a 6++ so I am saying 50 spear elves imagine just please imagine.

liddan
20-07-2014, 15:21
I imagine you'll hardly ever get off two wyssan's and with double wyssan's any unit in the game is extremely devastating.

Josfer
20-07-2014, 15:56
Imagine spear slaves with S5 T5...

SpanielBear
20-07-2014, 22:14
Imagine spear slaves with S5 T5...

Josfer, please... I was eating!

brumpers
20-07-2014, 22:33
I'd echo thoughts from above - I personally only take a horde of spearmen when I have a L4 mage with Shadow so I have a decent chance if being able to Mindrazor them and seriously destroy stuff. I also tend to take archers over LSG every time - they're just better shooters for fewer points :)

EvanM
20-07-2014, 23:44
spear slaves dont have asf or WS4, they got ws2 so you can hit like bricks but you will always be hitting on a 5+ whereas elves hit on 3+ usually and usually get to reroll that, meaning they hit with over 90% of attacks.

Knifeparty
21-07-2014, 00:16
...and then they wound twice and someone makes an armour save and then the enemy loses 1 wound. And then proceeds to massacre the lightly armour spear elves in droves.

EvanM
21-07-2014, 02:01
50 attacks, 40 hits, 20 wounds, even if you have 1+ armor you take 3 unsaved wounds. and this is assuming ws4 enemy. against ws3 its more.

getting to shoot with 40 s3 bowshots is basically like doing your close combat attacks from afar (lots of s3 attacks). you can stand and shoot and do damage. sure, a monster with t6 and 1+ armor and a 4++ wont be phased, yeah, but enemy elite infantry without 1+ armor would be a little worried by this.

Knifeparty
21-07-2014, 02:18
I know the math, I was exaggerating.

If you want to take them then by all means it's your hobby and your game to do with as you please. But you asked if they were good, and I'm saying it's not great.

EvanM
21-07-2014, 03:12
i guess its hard to even answer the question: is unit-x good? because if you really wanna know, just look up what swedish comp tells you that you cant have. or look at the netlists and be like OH! white lions! everyone has those so they must be good!

seriously why are white lions S4....

Josfer
21-07-2014, 04:02
spear slaves dont have asf or WS4, they got ws2 so you can hit like bricks but you will always be hitting on a 5+ whereas elves hit on 3+ usually and usually get to reroll that, meaning they hit with over 90% of attacks.
a) slaves are barely above 1/4 of the cost of the elves
b) It's not over 90% it's just under. 88.88888889%
c) HE get another rank to attack (just adding to be fair)
d) how are slaves always be hitting on 5+, while elves hit on 3+??? Elves hit on 3+ against WS3 which slaves hit on 4+, against WS4 both hit on 4+ and against WS5 slaves hit on 5+ while elves hit on 4+ then waaay back WS 9 will be hit on 5+ by both and just for completion WS 2 will be hit on 4+ by slaves and 3+ by elves and WS1 (lol, spear slaves with wyssans and fear) will be hit on 3+ by both. And if both fail their fear test, both hit on the same number.
but mainly e) it was a joke

Wesser
21-07-2014, 07:06
People, you forget the larger picture here

It is a unit of 50 Spearelves....

It's awesome! A huge phalanx of elvendom... just as it should be. Surely the dice gods will smile on someone who uses the actual core troops of his army.


I find Elven spearmen to be undervalued. They just such a dependable unit and though I'd probably field 2x30 units to make longer use of the extra ranks worth of attacks, I'd always include some if I played High Elves, because they are the most cost-effective way to combat crap-medium infantry.

Josfer
21-07-2014, 10:42
30 spearmen are pointswise equivalent to 20 swordmen. The latter have one less rank to fight, but one more attack in the front (so basically the same number of attacks) while having S5 vs. S3 attacks. ASF is a difference (up to 33% more hits), BUT wounding on 2+ instead of 4+ (+66% wounds vs T3, +100% vs. T4, +200% vs. T5) and reducing armor by 2 (0-200%) is massive! Seriously, if you want to kill stuff or win combats, don't take spear elves.

copesh
21-07-2014, 18:37
my entire core is 50 seaguard with full command - 630 pts
40 shots a turn is awsesome, steadfast to hold, and give them a Handmaiden and they get an extra round of shooting.

I find them very effective.

They once shot down a Daemon Prince in one round.

:)

EvanM
22-07-2014, 03:41
There are some spells that boost this. I think I like a unit of 50 LSG, it's expensive but it has its uses and most people end up wasting their points on things like reavers anyway.

My thing is that LSG are only 1 pt less than white lions or swordmasters.

Josfer
22-07-2014, 05:54
My thing is that LSG are only 1 pt less than white lions or swordmasters.
Which neither are core nor can shoot.

EvanM
22-07-2014, 06:20
My point is that they are elites. Maybe it's no big deal. Idk I guess i'm trying to find my mojo when it comes to playing high elves.
I don't wanna take phoenixes or cheesy builds.

copesh
24-07-2014, 16:53
I like infantry so I take a lot.

My core, as I said, is all LSG. I usually put the handmaiden with Reaver Bow and Pot of Str in there. Then I have PG, WL, and Swordmasters. 10 Shadow Warriors, 5 Dragon Princes, and 4 bolt throwers.

I try to win through volume of fire. You put enough shots on something and you can kill it. I don't tend to run pheonixes. I like two 5 man teams of Swordmasters as flankers and a block of ten with command. It's fun.
Doesn't win against Chaos Chariot spam though. :(
But I like playing it and that is what counts.

EvanM
25-07-2014, 02:21
chaos chariot spam is stupid.

everyone talks about shooting sucking too much but then they go out and not take infantry and charge into close combat on turn 2, so yes, you cant kill the whole army in the 1 turn you let me shoot.

boli
25-07-2014, 17:30
I'm a big fan of core blocks; although I'm in a meta where S3 attacks can still be effective.

plus they look awesome (http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b449/boli32/Painting/WFB/HE/IMG_20140425_000817_zpsgrq5ylj1.jpg) on the table :D

(those are converted spearmen from seaguard just to make things even more confusing :P)

EvanM
26-07-2014, 01:17
They do look awesome! That is true!
Most people would argue that units like white lions look more awesome and yeah I guess they do.

Knifeparty
26-07-2014, 17:46
It's true, seeing a nice fully ranked unit of spears on the table is one of the reasons why I love this game so much.

EvanM
26-07-2014, 18:00
I started high elves because of spearelves and archers. Not because of phoenix guard.

Citadel97501
26-07-2014, 21:54
my entire core is 50 seaguard with full command - 630 pts
40 shots a turn is awsesome, steadfast to hold, and give them a Handmaiden and they get an extra round of shooting.
I find them very effective.
They once shot down a Daemon Prince in one round.
:)

The Hand Maiden doesn't actually provide a benefit to anything but the Sisters of Avelorn. That being said I used to use the giant blocks of sea guard as well. Unfortunately I have been on the receiving end of a few Orcy surprises due to their magic (Hand of Gork)...a friend of mine is a fan of that spell and uses Savage Orc's.

EvanM
26-07-2014, 23:29
Orc spells are the least of my worries. What i'm worried about is rock lobbas and doom divers (up to 4 of them for cheap) can really bash low toughness guys.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-07-2014, 18:02
spear slaves dont have asf or WS4, they got ws2 so you can hit like bricks but you will always be hitting on a 5+

Usually on a 4+.


I know the math, I was exaggerating.


Quite so. Those attacks might only yield 3 wounds against 1+ AS but that's sufficient to win over time. Knights don't come with ranks usually, and Chaos Warriors/Chariots/Monsters don't rely on that either. Spear Elves suffer some wounds against Elites, sure, but 50 of them will still be steadfast for a long time...and if you do get a Wyssan's or Mindrazor through, they'll obliterate stuff. It's easy to say the opposition will dispel it but it's one more spell they must stop.

Also, it's silly to say S3 doesn't win games. If 50 Seaguard do nothing but kill some chaff units (which are usually all T3) and don't die themselves, you're already one ahead. It's even better when you play with some kind of comp that awards points for half units.

WhispersofBlood
27-07-2014, 18:55
You be better off taking 40 or 50 Archers if you want a big unit. Cheaper than Seagaurd, and don't fight much worse that Spearmen who they don't shoot at all.

EvanM
27-07-2014, 23:04
i think i would choose 40 archers, they can shoot 35 shots with nice range, easily buffed with many spells to make their shooting better, and they can fight in 4 ranks in combat with asf still.

spears dont do much for elves, they get martial prowess so its like everyone has a spear.

5+ armor save without parry isnt a big deal either, so yeah i think archers are kind of perfect too.

spearmen get armor and +1 rank of attacks than archers, but both of those things dont matter much really so maybe archers win

N00B
29-07-2014, 00:50
Spearelves with Razor Standard can be decent enough - 4 ranks of attacks from a modest unit is not bad. In addition a couple more units that can break rank bonuses is also nice.

I particularly like the razor standard with lore of shadow - either withering or mindrazor seriously helps win combat and the other hexes don't hurt.

WhispersofBlood
29-07-2014, 03:43
Spearelves with Razor Standard can be decent enough - 4 ranks of attacks from a modest unit is not bad. In addition a couple more units that can break rank bonuses is also nice.

I particularly like the razor standard with lore of shadow - either withering or mindrazor seriously helps win combat and the other hexes don't hurt.

They only have access to a 25 point magic standard so no Razor Standard for them.

copesh
29-07-2014, 17:55
well, shucks, you're right.

darn, that really makes her suck. I really liked that combo.


The Hand Maiden doesn't actually provide a benefit to anything but the Sisters of Avelorn. That being said I used to use the giant blocks of sea guard as well. Unfortunately I have been on the receiving end of a few Orcy surprises due to their magic (Hand of Gork)...a friend of mine is a fan of that spell and uses Savage Orc's.

I agree, the two pts per model for a downgrade in range and to get LA, SH, and Spears for seaguard over archers is a bit rough.
I just really like the seaguard models from IoB.

EvanM
29-07-2014, 18:32
i think itd be fair if it was 11 pts per guy with a shield and you got a HW instead of a spear, its better for those small units to get that parry save.

spears kind of suck now, an extra rank of attacks usually does nothing. might as well live longer with that parry save.

N00B
29-07-2014, 21:14
Hmm. Not sure why I thought they could take Razor. That is me being very silly. Sorry.

Knifeparty
29-07-2014, 21:34
Also, it's silly to say S3 doesn't win games.

I disagree, I find that strength 3 doesn't do much of anything except get rid of the odd skirmisher/fast cav unit. Every little bit helps and sometimes it can surprise you but if you are relying on strength 3 then your going to have a problem.

Josfer
30-07-2014, 09:31
Spears suck for elves and hordes and especially for both (saurus warriors too). +1S is at least 60% more damage if the enemy has anything between 2+ and 6+ AS and T of at least that of the models S, elves and hordes and saurus warriors already have 3 attacks, so only get a 33% increase, if you have a horde of elves or sauruses even only 25%. That's the minimum improvement of +1S (if you're not wounding on 2+ anyways) while the maximum is 300% (if you before had a 6+ to wound and faced a 2+AS).

On the other hand a parry sucks even more, reducing the damage by 17% and only in CC and only to the front. And the additional attacks can at least be boosted by Wyssans or Okkams (is there a spell for HE that gives poison?).

EvanM
31-07-2014, 04:46
I'd take parry saves over spears in high elves. The main reason is that parry synergies better with HE than spears since high elves are fragile by nature and already get martial prowess.

Swordelves would be great. Its unfluffy so it may not happen.

Sarael
09-08-2014, 05:28
Most people laugh at a horde of 50 spear elves.

And then they get buffed by Mindrazor and everything in contact with them dies. Nothing will charge them. Hell I'm afraid to shoot them until the spell wears off :P

Unless you run a Lvl 4 LoShadow, leave the spears at home. Archers shoot chaff down without giving up position.

Lycannus
09-08-2014, 09:07
I ususally run 2 units of 20+ Seaguard, and they have never let me down yet

EvanM
09-08-2014, 23:07
Well ideally i'd have the models to try fielding 50 spears, 50 LSG and 50 archers.

It's super uncommon for high elves to field units like this, but I like the idea of it

thesoundofmusica
10-08-2014, 13:16
I prefer smaller units, 20-25 man. Now you have two threats that are not as tempting to 6dice big spells at. I run lore of shadow and find that two small ASF units with a potential mindrazor is very nice for supporting each other and the rest of the army. Especially setting up counter attacks.

Laniston
17-08-2014, 19:50
I have really bad luck with my steadfast spearmen hordes running away but I do really well with smaller blocks of 20 or 30 for some reason. Sea guard underwhelm me every time I take them. For shooting I use 20 sisters with a handmaiden. Sea guard pale in effectiveness next to them so badly when it comes to shooting. A couple units of spearmen on the other hand can do pretty good at dealing with light tasks or defending other units.